Logging TMG hours

[Okavango]

If I fly a TMG (T61F) with a CAA TMG examiner/instructor prior to having the Class Rating added to my JAA PPL license, should I log the hours or is this only possible after the rating is on my license? Seems to be an odd grey area.

[BackPacker]

It's an instruction flight, not? So you log the hours in the TMG column (make one if you don't have one, next to the SEP column), and in the PU/T column.

[Okavango]

That's correct, I'm just not sure if I can log the class training hours on my PPL until I hold the class on my license. I can't see why not as we log SEP training PU/T prior to license issue. It's also slightly more complicated however as the a/c for a TMG flight test specifically needs to be dual ignition though the training a/c doesn't necessarily need to be so again I'm wondering about the validity of the training hours on the non dual ignition a/c.

[BackPacker]

I can't see why not as we log SEP training P2 prior to license issue.

Because you cannot log P2 whatsoever in a Single Pilot aircraft. Single Pilot aircraft the only options are P1/PIC and PU/T. Plus a few exceptions for exam flights and integrated training. But P2 is reserved for Multi-Crew aircraft.

SEP training flights are logged as PU/T. So are TMG training flights. The only exception is if you are legally PIC (licensed, current and everything) but getting training nevertheless (clubcheck for instance). In that case you've got to decide (usually beforehand) who is going to be PIC. If it's you, the instructor logs nothing. If it's the instructor, he/she logs PIC and you log PU/T.

[blagger]

If you've already got a PPL it is dual training towards a TMG class rating - hence log as P u/t. If you've haven't got a PPL and are training towards a PPL with SEP it might be a bit more confused - don't think you could log it towards your PPL issue.

Never heard the dual ignition thing before - do you know where that comes from?

[Okavango]

Thanks all. I guess the crux is does any TMG training have to be in a dual ignition a/c (such as a Super Dimona) to be able to log it as P/UT on a JAA PPL.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Surely in an SEP you'd have to log it as Dual? the instructor will be PIC.??

My Flight Test was the only time i was with an instructor and i was PIC (yes look it up)

?? dual ignition on a TMG really? no idea?

[Ultranomad]

BackPacker, even though it's irrelevant to this topic, you can log P2 in an aircraft certified for a single pilot if the nature of operations being performed falls under a provision requiring two pilots.

[BackPacker]

Anton, that is true. If the SOP or some other regulation prescribes a two-crew operation, then you can log P2. However that is a very unlikely scenario for a plain PPL (you'd have done the MCC course for starters) and even less likely in a TMG.

[BillieBob]

you'd have done the MCC course for startersNot necessarily. The MCC course is a pre-requisite for the first MPA type rating; there is currently no requirement to have completed MCC training before flying multi-pilot in a SPA. This is likely to change under EASA.

However, as you say, not entirely relevant to the discussion at hand.

[MIKECR]

Never heard of this dual ignition stipulation before. The T61F is quite clearly defined in the list in Lasors as a Touring Motor Glider. I know plenty of people who have undergone training/skills tests in one for the likes of a PPL TMG rating. Whats the reference material that your looking at?

Just had a further think about it. Is the T61 not dual ignition in any case? Its the old Rollason VW engine isnt it? Any T61 owners out there?

[Okavango]

Please can we stop all this digression to discussing P2 etc.

Regarding the original thread and query over dual ignition which isn't well documented in Lasors 2010 or generally understood on this thread - this is what a TMG examiner informed me:

"Now the reason - once a TMG rating is obtained then any Motor Glider can be flown BUT to train or examine then the Motor Glider must conform to the same standards & maintenance schedule as say a PA28 or C152 e.g. dual ignition & maintained from birth by a CAA approved maintenance dept. The Super Dimona at Enstone falls within this category. The majority of Motor Gliders are under the BGA system, for good reason - it's cheaper & therefore not applicable. "

[MIKECR]

Most motor gliders have in fact got an EASA CofA, theyre not maintained by the BGA. Where does this examiner get his reference from?

[Whopity]

Seems to be an odd grey area.Nothing grey at all. If you are training it is PUT; if its a a test and you pass, its P1S and your log is signed by the examiner. You cannot exercise the privileges of the rating until you have a licence with that rating in PartXII and a Certificate of Test which is issued with the rating. You could fly and log solo flight in the interim period provided you are authorised by an instructor.

[BackPacker]

I'd be very curious about the actual regulation that specifies this.

I just checked Lasors (Section F1.2 - F1.4 and appendix F to section F) and there's no mention of "dual ignition" anywhere. Same for the ANO. Even Google draws a blank in the first two pages.

[Whopity]

A TMG is an aircraft certified in accordance with JAR-22 (www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/PDF_Documents/jar22.pdf). That is where you will find the certification requirements. In order to qualify for a TMG Class Rating you must complete a JAA Skill Test in an aircraft that is certified in accordance with JAR 22.

Once qualified you can fly any motor glider certified or permitted under national arrangements.

[blagger]

I just went to read Section F.5 of LASORS 2010 to brush up on this and have now given up and going for a malt instead. You could quite easily come to the conclusion that no-one at CAA or in industry now has a clue about half of the subtle variances out there and once the EASA / Annex 2 guff arrives as well we will be truly rudderless, what a mess!

[Jim59]

A TMG is an aircraft certified in accordance with JAR-22 (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/PDF_Documents/jar22.pdf). That is where you will find the certification requirements. In order to qualify for a TMG Class Rating you must complete a JAA Skill Test in an aircraft that is certified in accordance with JAR 22.


That's not the only route. I have a current TMG rating but have never flown a TMG, only an SLMG.

[Whopity]

I have a current TMG rating but have never flown a TMG, only an SLMG.Then how do you comply with Article 67?67.—(1) This article applies to—
(a) JAR-FCL licences;
(b) United Kingdom licences for which there are JAR-FCL equivalents; and
(c) United Kingdom Basic Commercial Pilot’s Licences.
(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to exercise the privileges of an aircraft rating specified in Section 1 of Part B of Schedule 7 which is included in the licence on a flight unless—
(a) the licence has a certificate of revalidation for the rating;
(b) the certificate is appropriate, issued and valid in accordance with Section 2 of Part C of Schedule 7;(ii) Revalidation of all single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings (land) and all touring motor glider ratings
For revalidation of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane (land) class ratings or touring motor glider class ratings (or both) the applicant must on single engine piston aeroplanes (land) or touring motor gliders (as the case may be) satisfy the requirements specified in paragraph 1.245(c)(1) of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.

(1) All single-engine piston aeroplane
class ratings (land) and all touring motor
glider’s ratings – Revalidation. For
revalidation of single-pilot single-engine
piston aeroplane (land) class ratings and/or
touring motor glider class ratings the
applicant shall:
(i) within the three months
preceding the expiry date of the rating,
pass a proficiency check in accordance
with Appendix 1 and 3 to JAR-FCL1.240 or Appendix 1 and 2 to JAR-FCL
1.210 with an authorised examiner in
the relevant class; or
(ii) within the 12 months
preceding the expiry of the rating
complete 12 hours flight time in a single
engine piston aeroplane or touring
motor glider including:

[B4aeros]

Easy.

Old style SLMG licence/rating earned in SLMGs, + PPL(A). SLMG rating converted into TMG rating post-JAA. TMG rating kept current by flying SEPs.

[Jim59]

Easy.

Old style SLMG licence/rating earned in SLMGs, + PPL(A). SLMG rating converted into TMG rating post-JAA. TMG rating kept current by flying SEPs.


That's correct.

[Okavango]

Sorry for the delay but I'm awaiting confirmation from the CAA. Basically it's all caught up in what type PPL (old UK issued or more modern JAR) and cross credits between the NPPL SLMG and JAR PPL TMG. It seems fairly straightforward for the older UK issued licenses though there is seemingly nothing specific under JAR. The requirement for dual ignition seems to be a further complication that even fewer people have any knowledge of (and the reference earlier in the thread seems to imply that single ignition will suffice). I'll update with any findings in due course on the above along with who is allowed to perform training/examination (FI/E SLMG, XMG or TMG) to endorse or apply for Class Ratings on JAR licenses and hopefully nip this in the bud once and for all!

[Okavango]

Second update. Still nothing confirmed by the CAA as regards JAR licenses. I've found a place where I can get the TMG rating direct so will most probably do that.

[Okavango]

Even for more modern JAA licenses, a SLMG rating can be added. There are therefore 2 routes to putting a TMG rating on your PPL:

1. TMG rating direct with a TMG examiner (which are rare).
2. SLMG rating then convert to TMG rating based on experience. A SLMG examiner can perform the necessary class rating skill test. Note you will not be able to log any hourse until you have a TMG rating on your license.
It would seem the NPPL route is no longer required, unless you have a desire to hold a NPPL for other reasons.

The CAA policy section has confirmed the following:

To apply for the grant of a TMG rating to your JAA PPL(A) on the basis of having flown at least 75 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, as detailed in section F1.2 of LASORS, without passing a TMG skills test. You are required to hold a UK issued PPL(A) or above which contains both an SEP land and an SLMG rating with a valid certificate of test for SLMG's. A UK issues licence can be either a JAA PPL(A) or a previously issued National UK PPL(A), these were issued pre JAR.
Your options are either to add a the TMG rating onto your licence as detailed in LASORS section F1.2
Provide evidence of having completed a course of training in a TMG in accordance with JAR_FCL for the purpose of the rating.
Pass a class rating skills test in the appropriate class of aeroplane conducted by a JAR authorised Class rating Examiner or Flight Examiner.
Pass a theoretical Knowledge exam (oral as part of the LST).
　
Or alternatively you can meet the requirements to have an SLMG added to your JAA PPL(A) by meeting the requirements for the addition of this rating as detailed in LASORS Section F5.2. The application and test for the SLMG rating can be signed by an SLMG examiner. Once this has been completed you can then subsequently apply for the grant of the TMG rating based on the 75 hour basis.