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thborchert
16th Feb 2011, 14:00
Hi all,

I hope this is the right place to ask. Being from Germany, where no IFR flying is allowed in Class G airspace, I sometimes have difficulties grasping UK procedures around transitioning from IFR flight in Class G to Class A and vice versa. I'm flying a single engine turbocharged piston, so I would want to climb into the flight levels as soon as possible.

My question is: How would an IFR departure out of Southampton with a destination in Germany normally work? For one thing, I would need an airways clearance for the long distance. For another, I don't think I could avoid crossing Class G on the way up into Class A. So, would I get the airways clearance on the ground? What's the local procedure?

Thanks a lot!

Thomas

BOAC
16th Feb 2011, 15:37
"So, would I get the airways clearance on the ground? What's the local procedure?" I guess it depends on where you are joining airways?

TCAS FAN
16th Feb 2011, 16:04
thborchert

If you wish to remain within controlled airspace (Class D or A in London FIR),
Southampton is within controlled airspace (Class D) this joins with Class A airspace.

See attached link for outbound routings, GWC can be expected as your first waypoint.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-93EED705E4CB42D159D4AADC9A0A8461/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGHI_en_2010-11-18.pdf

If you are unpressurised and unable to cruise above FL100, expect a southeast routing to go south of Gatwick.

You should expect to climb at your best rate until passing FL55, thereafter you are into Class A airspace.

ATC at Southampton/Solent are very good. If they see that your rate of climb is low and may result in you leaving controlled airspace before reaching FL55, they will give you an extended routing to ensure that you remain inside.

I would suggest that if you cannot acheive an intial rate of climb 1000 FPM or greater, tell ATC. This will assist them with determining a routing that will ensure that you remain inside controlled airspace.

If you wish to route under Class A airspace after leaving the Solent CTA plan to route GWC-SFD remaining below the London and Worthing CTAs. An FIS service is available from London (124.750/124.600). This may require a maximum cruising level of FL50.

thborchert
16th Feb 2011, 16:43
Thanks! I can do more than 1000 fpm, I would also want to do FL180 (unpressurized, but on oxygen - this is a Cirrus SR22 Turbo). So, if remaining in controlled airspace, I would get the clearance on the ground? Also, on approach, would ATC route me through controlled airspace or would they at some point "dump" me into Class G with some sort of service level that no one outside the UK has ever heard of? :O

BOAC, by way of explanation: In most of Europe, there is no "joining the airways". You are and remain in controlled airspace during IFR flight from take-off to landing, or at least under control of ATC. The (rather nice and very handy) concept of regularly flying IFR in class G without a clearance or even radio contact, let alone a flight plan, is rather foreign to the rest of Europe. As you can see, I really like the concept for its practicality and ease of use, but I have found one really needs to know how to "work the system" if one wants to cross from class G IFR flying to "airways" flying. For example, it took me several visits to the UK to learn that requesting an "IFR clearance" won't get you anywhere with ATC. The magic words are "airways clearance". Try that phrase anywhere else in Europe and I wish you good luck...

Radar
16th Feb 2011, 18:24
thborchert,
When is your intended trip to EGHI?

Chilli Monster
16th Feb 2011, 20:43
Thomas - wie gehts. Long time since Berlin

Southampton is in class 'D' and linked to the airways system. So, the clearance you get will be:

"Cleared to (destination), via (Departure - they have published SID's), squawk ........."And you'll probably get that when you call for start, or just prior to taxi. Inbound you shouldn't get dumped into class 'G', again as the CAS is all connected.

That's it, no different to operating out of most class 'C' or 'D' airports on the continent. Now, parking, handling etc - that's a different matter ;)

thborchert
16th Feb 2011, 20:54
Radar,

Late February, early March. Date is not yet set. Probably in from northern Germany early in the morning, out in the evening. The alternative is airline service into Gatwick, which would mean spending a night (or two). Not that I would mind that, but flying by myself would be more fun.

Mr. Monster :),

Good to talk to you again. Certainly a very long time! I hope all is well. Any trips planned to the continent? I'll be leading a group through the Danish isles in June. Also, I'll be at Tannkosh, an event well worth attending. And I might just make it to the Scilly Islands for a brief holiday.

As for the fees at EGHI, from what I gather they are not too bad for British standards and comparable to Bournemouth, which would be a potential alternative. Am I wrong?

And if I am, what about Bournemouth or, for that matter, any other airfield not connected to the airways system by the appropriate airspace? How would the whole thing work there? Take off (at VFR weather minimums for Class G or above?) and get the clearance from LARS or Information in the air?

Thanks again!

fat'n'grey
17th Feb 2011, 06:59
Thomas,

If you file an IFR flight plan all of your clearances within the London FIR will keep you within controlled airspace. This applies equally to your arrival and departure from EGHI.

Don't forget that EGHI is PPR due to restricted parking - and they are not cheap at all. From my experience EGHH is by far the cheaper of the two.

Should you elect EGHH as your destination, again the clearances issued by ATC will ensure you remain within CAS and a known traffic environment.

Greetings from EBBR.

Oh dear!

Radar
17th Feb 2011, 08:53
Thomas,
Planning an IFR run to EGHI next Thursday, returning Friday. I'll let you know how I get on.

All the best
Damian

PS Anyone with local knowledge able to point me toward the current schedule of fees for Southampton. The airport site is less than forthcomng on the subject?

thborchert
17th Feb 2011, 14:28
Damian,

Thanks, that'll help! I'd also be much interested in the fees, of course. I was planning on calling and asking.

soaringhigh650
17th Feb 2011, 14:32
This is my understand of how it works in the UK:

Any airport that is contained within controlled airspace (e.g. Southampton, Bournemouth, etc.), you depart IFR in the way you're used to.

For any airport outside controlled airspace, file your flight plan on the ground, and depart IFR while initially cruising low outside controlled airspace, so maintain your own avoidance from terrain and keep a good lookout if you can:
- Towered: Your tower/departure unit should be able to co-ordinate your clearance with the en-route facility.
- Non-Towered: After leaving the AFIS/AG frequency, contact your nearby LARS unit or London Information when outside LARS coverage, and they can co-ordinate your clearance with the en-route facility.

Once the clearance is given, expect to climb much higher and it should be easy from there onwards.

As Southampton airport requires mandatory handling, contact Signature Flight Support for more information.

thborchert
17th Feb 2011, 15:58
Actually, the docs say "Mandatory handling for all non General Aviation aircraft." The little word "non" would keep me from getting in touch with Signature Aircraft - why should I? IMHO there is no indication for mandatory handling of GA aircraft at EGHI.

chevvron
17th Feb 2011, 16:35
You may find that a handling agent needs to be stated on your flight plan.

soaringhigh650
17th Feb 2011, 16:47
IMHO there is no indication for mandatory handling of GA aircraft at EGHI.

Maybe I'm wrong then. So contact the airport direct and you can find out. :)

Chilli Monster
17th Feb 2011, 18:15
Thomas - you have a PM

Although a handling agent isn't 'mandatory', parking space is extremely limited as has been said before. Now, for a quick stop (up to 30 minutes) airfield ops will park you near the terminal for a very reasonable price which you can pay direct to the airport.

Any longer, and you'll be directed up to the North end of the parking area where you will be forced to use Signature, as you'll only be able to access your aircraft via them. And once there you are a captive audience - you become one of their customers.

No other way round it I'm afraid

TCAS FAN
17th Feb 2011, 18:26
Thborchert

Unless you wish to pay Signature for handling I suggest that you telephone SOU Airside Operations (+442380627102) and request prior permission to land (PPR) and indicate the length of your stay on the ground. If you obtain prior permission from Operations you will not be charged a handling fee.

Operations are open 0630-2215 UTC Monday through Friday, 0630-2000 Saturday and 0730-2215 Sunday. It is best to request approval as soon as possible. Operations only accept a limited number of requests, which are subject to available parking stands. If they cannot issue approval (and a PPR number) you will have to request handling by Signature.

Best of luck!

Radar
17th Feb 2011, 18:35
Thomas,

Chilli (and TCAS) speaketh the truth ...... unfortunately.
I've just gotten off the phone with with a very pleasant gentleman at airside ops in Southampton. We would be most welcome to drop into EGHI next week, they are very definitely PPR, there is no possibility of overnight parking (not relevant to you, Thomas I know, but kinda scuppers our plans) and Signature were mentioned in the same breath.

The inability to overnight means I and the pax are going back to the drawing board. On the Flyer site a few weeks ago Bournemouth was being lambasted as GA unfriendly yet, earlier in this thread, were touted as an alternative. Any thoughts guys?

Phalconphixer
17th Feb 2011, 19:00
Given that the airline winter schedules into and out of Bournemouth were pretty well decimated, I'd have thought they would have been glad of any traffic, GA, Commercial or whatever. They cannot afford to be choosy.

Even an extra car in the car park would bring well needed revenue!

pp

eyeinthesky
18th Feb 2011, 20:35
Try Bournemouth Handling. Details on the web.

Dependant upon where you're headed after landing, Bournemouth might be just as convenient, except that public transport links are not as good as Southampton.

Radar
18th Feb 2011, 22:02
eyeinthesky,

Thanks very much mate, that's exactly what I've done. Southampton would have cost us 285 quid for handling and 24 hours parking :eek:. Bournemouth comes out at 83. I'll drive an hour and a quarter for the difference :)

thborchert
19th Feb 2011, 09:26
Radar,

I have been offered pick-up in Bournemouth by the people I am visiting in Southampton, so this is my primary option. However, please let both Signature and Southampton airport know how and why you decided to go to Bournemouth. They should know they are losing business with their pricing.

FlyingForFun
19th Feb 2011, 19:04
Thomas,

Hope the resident controllers here don't mind a non-controller sticking his nose in! :=

You originally asked about flight outside controlled airspace. As others have said, although I don't think anyone's explicitly pointed out your mistake - Southampton is not outside controlled airspace, it is in its own Class D zone which is connected to the airways system.

However, now that this is resolved, are you still interested in knowing about flight outside controlled airspace? If so, read on:

Imagine, for a moment, that you were routing to Exeter, rather than either Southampon or Bournemouth. Exeter is outside controlled airspace, but it lies underneath an airway. So first of all, you'd have to decide between 2 options:

a) Route inside controlled airspace as much as possible. From Southampton, you'd probably route north to NORRY, then L9 to BCN, and south on N864. (Not sure if there's a better route off the top of my head, I don't have an airways chart to hand, but the idea would be the same for any other route.)

OR

b) Route airways to SAM, then direct to Exeter outside controlled airspace, which would be quite a few miles shorter.

If you went for option a), you'd find that Exeter's standard departures and arrivals join and leave the airways close to the airport. This is a well-established procedure, so you'd get an airways clearance on the ground prior to departure, and you'd be handed to Exeter Radar on leaving the airways. The only difference you'd notice from a flight wholly inside controlled airspace is that for a few short miles, you'd have to choose from the available services outside controlled airspace (e.g. Deconfliction Service or Traffic Service), and be particularly aware of the possibility of traffic which the controller is not aware of.

If you went for option b), then you'd really experience (and need to understand) flight outside controlled airspace, in which case the following pointers will be helpful:

1) ATC. You should have in mind a plan for who you would like to speak to. In practice, ATC will make a suggestion as to who you should speak to next when you reach the edge of their area, and might even pre-notify you to the next unit, but you don't have to follow their suggestions (do tell them if you're doing something other than what they suggest), and you may just get told to "Squawk 7000 and freecall en-route" if you're unlucky.

I'd suggest you choose who to speak to by going for the first one that's available on the following list:

a) A LARS station if below FL100, or a Middle Airspace Radar Service if above FL100 (see AIP ENR 1.6.3 and 1.6.4 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-ED14EE5E1BD1CA02F415796FC3F09C6A/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/ENR/EG_ENR_1_6_en_2011-01-13.pdf) and AIP ENR 6.1.6.3 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-ED14EE5E1BD1CA02F415796FC3F09C6A/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/NON_AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_1_6_3_en_2010-11-18.pdf))
b) An ATC unit that has radar
c) An ATC unit without radar (you won't get anything other than a Basic service), or
d) London Information (you won't get anything other than a Basic service)

For our theoretical route, on a weekday up until 5pm, and below FL100, you'd probably want to speak to Boscombe Radar (126.7) when you leave controlled airspace, then Yeovil Radar (127.35). After 5pm and on weekends, both those stations are closed, so you'd probably speak to Bournemouth Radar (119.475).

2) Choice of service. See AIP ENR 1.1.2 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-ED14EE5E1BD1CA02F415796FC3F09C6A/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/ENR/EG_ENR_1_1_en_2011-01-13.pdf) for full details, but basically, when en-route, you have a choice of requesting Basic, Traffic or Deconfliction service.

Basic service does not include any traffic information unless the controller happens by chance to spot a conflict which he feels is important enough to mention to you. Generally not suitable for flight in IMC unless no other service is available.

Traffic service is the one I'd suggest going for. You will be identified on radar, and any conflicting traffic will be called out to you. You are responsible for avoiding the traffic. In practice, very often no avoidance is necessary, or a turn will take you away from the traffic, but if in doubt, upgrade temporarily to Deconfliction service

Deconfliction service includes not only calling traffic to you, but giving you instructions to avoid the traffic. The rules for how much separation you are given can be quite draconian, especially if the controller is not talking to the traffic concerned, and even more so if he isn't using a Mode C transponder, so you tend to get lots of vectors to avoid the guys who are VFR several thousand feet below you.....

3) Joining controlled airspace. On our imaginary route, you wouldn't need to concern yourself with this on the way to Exeter, but on the return leg, you'd need to get an entry into controlled airspace. You can pretty much ask any controller for a clearance - if you've departed Exeter and you want to join airspace at Southampton then either Boscombe or Bournemouth would be fine, but be sure to do it in plenty of time. In practice, they'll most likely pre-notify you to the appropriate controller, then hand you over before you reach the boundary of airspace. At this point you are not cleared in, and should still be prepared to hold if you don't get your clearance in time. But once you are two-way with the appropriate controller, he will hopefully issue you with a clearance fairly quickly. You may be cleared to enter at a particular level, in which case be sure to be level before joining (or tell the controller if you can't... he may be able to amend you clearance so you can join in the climb).

4) Flight plans. It is not generally possible to use DCT on a flight plan for a leg of more than 50nm (although there are exceptions). So ending your flight plan with "<airway> SAM DCT EX" would not work. Instead, try "<airway> SAM DCT YVL DCT EX". It is not necessary to actually route via YVL, it is only necessary to put it on the flight plan so that no single leg appears to be more than 50nm.

5) Level planning. You will need to fly at a level which complies with the Quadrantal Rule. Don't expect ATC to tell you what level to be at until you are approaching your destination. If you are high, you will probably want to have an idea of where to start descending. When changing level, advise ATC first - apart from being polite to tell them what you're doing, they may have traffic to affect.

Hope that's of some help (or at least general interest), if not for this flight then for a future one! And I'm looking forward to the controllers on the forum correcting me on the finer points now.....!

FFF
------------------

thborchert
19th Feb 2011, 21:21
FFF,

Most helpful, thanks. You've nailed the problematic issues I've seen, namely finding the right people to talk to and transitioning to airways flying.

AlanM
19th Feb 2011, 21:29
With regards to Exeter Traffic from the East....

A lot of traffic with operators such as FlyBe, Thomson etc etc Route SAM-GIBSO leaving CAS at GIBSO normally at FL140-160. That is 40nm from EGTE.

Sector 20 will then pass you to Western Radar on 132.3 where a DS is available. When clean of all unknowns (or co-ordinated against Boscombe/Yeovilton/Plymouth Mil traffic) you will be released to EGTE.

If you are arriving on N864 you will leave CAS with prob 20-30nm less distance outside CAS direct to EGTE approach.

Daysleeper
22nd Feb 2011, 07:20
Yeah, and watch for Western Radar not mentioning the airway (N90) at FL105+ runs at 90° to the Gibso - EX track about 20nm E of EXT, nearly caught me out the other day...lucky on handover to Exeter radar gave us a "I'm sure you know but just checking you will be below..."
:E

thborchert
22nd Feb 2011, 12:44
Radar,

Just off the phone with a very friendly lady from airside ops in Southampton. Very different result compared to your inquiry due to the fact that I will not stay overnight: PPR number was given, landing fee will be 32,60 pounds and parking over two hours will be 12,20 pounds. No handling agency required, no additional cost. She took down a note saying that we require fuel, so the bowser will be driving up. She said they basically do not do overnights, that's when handling is required.

Couldn't have been nicer, and the price IMHO is ok. What a difference compared to overnight stays...

Radar
22nd Feb 2011, 17:07
You lucky b@gg@r !! :)

Indeed, quite a difference, Thomas. No way round it for us I'm afraid. Making the trip, completing the visit and a return all in the same day was never going to work. Speaking of never going to work, we may be spending the day wrapped around a few Belgian beers, if the wx prognosis for early Thursday is anything to go by.

Could be worse, I suppose :):)

thborchert
5th Mar 2011, 07:08
All,

Thanks again for your help! Our trip went smoothly thanks to the advice given here. Everybody at Southampton was most friendly and helpful! Airside Ops confirmed that they mostly take day visitors but also try to accomodate overnights when possible. Special thanks to TCAS FAN - what a pleasant surprise!

The only (slightly) disappointing thing was that in over five hours of flying from EDHL to EGHI and back, we didn't see the ground once (except late during approach). Flying in the sunshine above a low cloud deck could have been anywhere. But, a Cirrus SR22 Turbo makes a wonderful travel machine...

Radar
5th Mar 2011, 18:15
Excellent, glad it went smoothly Thomas. :ok::ok: