Quarter of RAF trainee pilots to be sacked

[ian16th]

Quarter of RAF trainee pilots to be sacked in defence spending cull - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8322136/Quarter-of-RAF-trainee-pilots-to-be-sacked.html)

[kc1]

No mention of the 40 odd WSO students that have already been f****d over by the air force.

[Rigga]

...and waiting for the training squadrons, training pilots and maintenance crews to be reduced next.

Then comes the OEMs and Manufacturers, their contracts and company reductions too...

All the best for the near future
Rigga

[Scuttled]

How can the leaking of this information be justified before our personnel have been informed. This is disgraceful, whether correct or not.

Whoever leaked it should be punished blah blah blah....... never going to happen is it? What a way to treat people.

[tacpot]

Sad and wrong as this is, if there are not going to be enough aircraft for them to fly, they have to go.

Even one more training sortie for someone who isn't going to become operational is a waste.

These are the hard facts that are going to hit some of the brightest and finest young men and women the UK has produced early next week.

Pity them, and pity the poor Air Staff who have to make these decisions; what a situation to have to try and manage!

I have my fingers crossed for them all, especially my son, who is so close behind them.

Stupid, stupid Politicians.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Investing in People....?

:*

[drustsonoferp]

Whilst individuals may not know whether they specifically are to be chopped, I don't think it's fair to say it was leaked before anyone knows: all the trainees had briefings last week to the best of my knowledge.

Heartbreaking as it is, continuing to train a large number of aircrew who have no seats to go to doesn't work out. Given that 5000 have to go, would you rather it were those already qualified, productive and who've had (potentially) even more invested in them?

I don't think anyone's contract is finalised until completion of phase 2 training, though what the implications are of moving the goal posts part way through the training cycle I haven't a clue.

None of this was ever going to be terribly pleasant.

[Old-Duffer]

I think the officer to whom 'Newt' refers is the AOC 22 (Training) Group and hence responsible for all RAF training.

Although I don't know him, I doubt that he will take any satisfaction with the situation being forced on the RAF and other services and I further doubt that the rest of the hierachy are jumping with joy either.

May I suggest a little less air officer bashing - unless evidence justifies same!

Old Duffer ( in full brown nose mode!!)

[Cpt_Pugwash]

ATD,

Investors in People, that's so out of date ...


From the IiP page on the intranet.,

"In June 2010, 2nd PUS wrote out to TLBs explaining that due to financial and resource constraints all IiP activity should cease. This means that after February 2011, MOD will no longer be IiP accredited and the IiP logo should not be used on anything connected with MOD. ":sad:

[gemstar]

Often lurk, don't often post but feel the need to this time. For any aircrew that do get the bad news, I wish you the very best of luck in forging a new career outside of the RAF. These are grim times for us all, but maybe more so for the people who have trained hard for years and the finishing line is so close, but yet is being snatched away. I know that we haven't the aircraft blah blah but it doesn't make it any easier for them. Best wishes.

[BEagle]

My sympathies to all those who, through absolutely no fault or failure on their part, have found themselves in this appalling situation.

The RAF has been reduced to its current state through years of government incompetence; Bliar's wars and desperation to cling to Dubya's coat tails were inadequately funded and the situation worsened under Incapability Brown. Billions have been wasted through incompetent procurement decisions; the present government has to balance the books as best it can, but the enormity of SDSR and the crass decisions of recent months concerning Harrier, Nimrod and manning cuts are probably the last few straws for the backs of many camels.

Good luck to all those who will be disappointed today by this truly awful St. Valentine's Day Massacre; I hope that there will be some government funded scheme to ease your transition into another career.

[Red Line Entry]

Right.......so, Airborne Aircrew, if the AOC sits down with each man for say, 15 mins, that will take him 100 hours, or over a fortnight to repeat the SAME thing to everyone. The whole point is that this is not a case of individuals being chosen. In exactly the same way as the Harrier fleet or the Nimrod fleet are being shafted, so are those in training.

As has already been pointed out, this is the RAF responding to the inevitable consequence of losing cockpits. How can the Service keep the same inflow when the flying opportunities simply aren't there?

I've met AOC 22 Gp and I can guarantee that he won't be happy about what's happening either. But unless you've got a spare £10Bn or so to donate, AA, then what alternative is there?

Old Duffer has it right - there are too many on this website who happily (and unjustifiably) slag off individuals by name while hiding behind anonymity.

[PAPI-74]

Sad news, but everyone is suffering.
This government is doing too much, too soon to sort out the Country's issues.

[4015]

Before we let this thread descend into the same old petty personal arguments and snappy b!tching, I'd just like to offer my condolences to the young guys and girls who are receiving bad news today.

[dctyke]

I'll look forward to seeing a reduction to 22 Gp senior staffing to reflect the massive reduction in training.................... :rolleyes:

[c130jbloke]

Best of luck to those who do get the bad news today. I know it will be a life's dream taken away, but its not the end.

What a pity that these guys / girls have to pay for other peoples incompetence.

Dont envy the AOC either IF its true he has a child in the system: Young Green gets the chop = very difficult Snuday lunch. Young Green does not get the chop = wild calls of nepotisim / jobs for the boys etc :uhoh:

What a Goat.

[Grabbers]

With regards to Capt Pugwash and IiP, why is the logo and accreditation spiel being used on AVM Green's 22Gp webpage?

Royal Air Force No 22 (Training) Group - Homepage (http://www.raf.mod.uk/no22traininggroup/)

Who is in charge of these things?

[Mr C Hinecap]

Grabbers

after February 2011, MOD will no longer be IiP accredited and the IiP logo should not be used on anything connected with MOD

*checks calendar*

Still February 2011 here.

[Kohima]

Whilst individuals may not know whether they specifically are to be chopped, I don't think it's fair to say it was leaked before anyone knows: all the trainees had briefings last week to the best of my knowledge.

Nah mate - we all knew something was coming but this is the first of any details we've heard. We had no briefings last week, they were postponed until this week at the earliest.

[oggers]

All of us who pursued this dream will understand the heartbreak this will cause.

I read in the media that these trainees are to be ditched forthwith. Whilst I understand and grudgingly accept the rational for the cuts, when I read that students a mere few hours from getting their wings are to have their training terminated I was stunned. Is that true? Surely the least compensation they should be offered is the chance of completing their courses? No doubt some clever-dick will know the administrative expedient which makes that impractical, not that I'm interested in hearing it.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Capt P...yes, I am out of date. Not only in IiP; I come from an era where we looked after our people. Whilst I am not laying blame at anyone's door, I feel desperately sorry for all those about to have hopes dashed and hope it is done sympathetically

[Grabbers]

Capt P/Mr C

Oops, well spotted. Just as well it's not me in charge of these things.
*finds hole, crawls into it*

[kiwibrit]

Not much use in completing a flying course so that you can sew wings to a non-existent uniform when you are redundant, I suppose. I used to know a bloke who did RAF flying training in North America - he nearly got his wings - and then the war ended and that was that. Hard to argue against not spending more money than required. Very rough for those involved, though.:sad:

[Pontius Navigator]

Grabbers, the short answer is money. The guy with the knowhow to run the website will not have editorial authority (except where they blame him).

[Old-Duffer]

Grabbers - it's probably because the guy/gal who is the website manager has already been fired.

[dallas]

Although I don't know him, I doubt that he will take any satisfaction with the situation being forced on the RAF and other services and I further doubt that the rest of the hierachy are jumping with joy either.

May I suggest a little less air officer bashing - unless evidence justifies same!
Agree with OD; I doubt this is a good day to be the AVM. While I'm happy to go airship bashing when necessary I expect this headline follows numerous briefings and hope many of the individuals know their fate. Either way, unless its done clumsily, it's Nu Labour who deserve the venom today.

Separately I'm pleased to see the IiP drivel get binned.

[Dunbar]

For those that get chopped...there is another hope. Likely as not, there will be an increased demand for commercial pilots in the near future. The lifestyle is great, you do get to fly for a living and the pay's good enough that you can fly aeros, formation etc in your spare time (and there's more of that). May not be what you want to hear right now but as a TRI/TRE for a major airline and a display aerobatic and formation pilot (with my specs on, hence no RAF) I can honestly say that it's not a bad life...

Good luck wherever it takes you

[dartman2]

As sad as it may be for those concerned, the circumstances are doing them a favor so they can move on and get qualified to do something else that will provide a sustainable career. Aviation as a career has had its day. Pay and conditions are getting worse and worse. Military flying probably still has its rewards but airline flying is now a joke both in terms of money and lifestyle.

Hopefully the RAF will allow these guys to stay in the service if they want to and be retrained in another field such as medicine, law, engineering etc

[Timelord]

My sympathies as well to all the young people who are about to have their dreams shattered. Only those of us who have been through flying training can possibly understand what this will be like. BUT getting out of the RAF now, especially if there is money involved, may not be a bad result, The next five years (or more) look pretty miserable for those who stay in. Either way, the best of luck to you all.

[plinkplinkfizz]

Just want to echo the sentiments expressed above - desperately sorry for those who will be affected by this cull. I really hope that the transition to a new career will actually be thought through and supported for you. The Royal Air Force's sad loss will be (as quickly as possible I hope) the gain of other more deserving employers.

On a personal note (and NO i am not a fan of top-heavy command structures) the AOC discussed above has always struck me as a top bloke and good officer, including when he was my Stn Cdr. I suspect he is having a truly lousy day at work too.

PPF :ugh:

[ktk]

Mark Green is a top bloke (if not too good with BBQs!!!!) I am sure he is as unhappy as anyone.

I too feel for all those who's dreams have been shattered.

[Bicster]

What awful news, my heart goes out to those affected. My girlfriend lives in the sticks near Shrewsbury and we have the good fortune to see the helicopters from RAF Shawbury going past at low level on a regular basis, its terrible to think that some of those poor souls are not going to be allowed to complete their training. Someone needs their neck wringing for leaking this to the press before those concerned were told.

[Phil_R]

In general: ouch.

One query though. I can understand needing less fast jet people - but I thought the RAF was shortly to get a load more transport aircraft and helicopters. Why cut people destined for that work too?

How are overall numbers possibly falling this fast. The defence review cut things by 8% and yet trainee aircrew are cut by 25%?

What hell going on?

P

[parabellum]

Would it not be better to let these people complete their training, get their wings and then transfer them to the reserve? This way they could move into civvy street and be the first to be offered their jobs back if times improve or if hostilities break out, the RAF would still have some return for their investment.

Letting them go as they are means that they will be neither fish nor fowl and may not have sufficient hours to qualify as having completed a course of military flying training towards the issue of a CPL.

Makes me realise how lucky I was in 1964.

[teeteringhead]

We must think first of the young people who are "so near yet so far" - an awful reminder that they chose a career where choice for them is limited and choice for the system is all.

I can still remember waking up the day after my AFTS FHT knowing that I was going to get to a Sqn or (at least!) a real OCU. Already had wings (got 'em at end of proper BFTS in them days) but still very much on Velcro.

Waking up that day with those thoughts has to be (sorry girls :E) one of the best waking ups I've experienced.....

Quite simply, if you've never been there (or close) you just won't get it .... and can't come close to understanding what these poor kids are going through......

(And Mark Green IIRC was a Harrier mate, so I'm sure he's well happy with SDSR - NOT!)

[dc1968]

Cabs or no cabs...I still find it hard to fully comprehend that the MOD's intention is to reduce the overall personnel numbers down to a total of 33,000. On average, more fans currently turn up to watch West Ham play at home than there will be manning the entire RAF by 2015...go figure?

[horsebox]

One would hope that air tanker can perhaps absorb some of these people?

Seems wasteful to be axing at one end and recruiting at the other..

[minigundiplomat]

One would hope that air tanker can perhaps absorb some of these people?


You would hope so, but I suspect Air Tanker will offer just above minimum wage to those already qualified and in receipt of a pension.

If that plan falls flat [as it will if the airlines do recover] then perhaps they can use some of the current unfortunate generation on a more sensible renumeration basis.

[Lou Scannon]

teeteringhead: True words my friend.

It would be interesting to hear that all four hundred had tendered their resignations rather than be subjected to this upcoming beauty contest, but assuming that a hundred will be made redundant, I suggest that they take heart in the forecasts for 400,000+ pilots being needed world wide over the next twenty years.

Organise yourselves into a facebook group or similar then organise the rest of your training to gain an ATPL (hopefully paid for by redundancy pay?).Sharing the costs for simulators etc can really help.

...and just think: Leaving now before the next exodus could well have you tucked in with yards of Seniority with an airline.

Who knows? You may even do the interviews on the ones that were retained when they are put out to grass!

The first airline that I worked for was once described as "like a fighter squadron...with girls!" ...so you really do have a future to look forward to.

From the bottom of my heart team...the very best for the future.

[Aerouk]

I'm gutted for those that will be affected by this terrible news, they've worked damn hard to get to where they are today and for that to be taken away due to the errors of the previous governments really is a shame.

[cazatou]

It seems to me that the vast majority of contributors have missed the essential point.

In the event that these planned cuts are implemented it will be difficult to maintain even a semblance of Defence of the United Kingdom. Moreover, it will be well nigh impossible to implement an expansion scheme of any magnitude should the need arise.

[GrahamO]

Very sad to hear this - particularly for those who are so close to qualifying. No time for cutbacks is a good time, and given it's difficult enough to get the throughout of pilots right for future requirements, a drop in defence spending is always going to have a critical effect.

Given the government was taken to a Judicial Review over the arbitrary cancellation of schools building programmes, without taking into account the proximity of completion of some schools, cannot the RAeS do the same to at least allow those near training completion to finish their courses ?

It may save a few, but given we have way more Brigadiers than we need, and more Admirals we can shake a baton at, this reduction in pilots was inevitable. As aircraft numbers drop, so do pilot numbers and it's how it is managed that matters - and the one size type of decision seems illogical and therefore open to judicial review - but the RAF themselves could not instigate it.

[A2QFI]

Contributing as a somewhat cynical ex-pilot, I sympathise with those about to be forced into an early career move, I have to say that the next 20 years of the RAF, seen from Febuary 2011, cannot easily be described as a "dream" for anybody.

[NUFC1892]

I echo the condolences to all who have been and will be affected by this, probably the first of many such headlines that we will see over the coming months. The announcement of course was that the RAF would lose 5,000 by 2015. Marry this up with the 3,000 redundancies that have been announced, the normal outflow and reduced recruiting and even retaining 30,000 by 2015 looks unlikely.

I am reminded of a couple of lines from Kipling:

.....Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken;
And stoop and build 'em up again with worn-out tools.

So many of us are weary of building with worn out tools, many of which are almost beyond repair.

[sanddancer]

Dreadful news indeed for those concerned.

Those being made redundant, are they being offered alternative employment within the RAF? (or Navy/Army crossovers) - or is it a straight 'see ya'. In addition, are they keeping only those doing well on their respective courses or is there some pseudo-PC ability/ethnicity/gender selection going on?

Out of interest though, if the RAF is making these folk redundant, presumably they can't at the same time be seen to recruit. Ergo, do recruiting offices say 'don't bother' and have they wound the OASC (or whatever it's called now) down?

In addition, as some of this batch of enforced retirees could be assumed to have made Air rank over time - what is their redundancy payment going to be based on. I know some girls who left the Army post-pregnancy got huge payouts on the basis that they were doing well and would have made the top.

No doubt in a years time someone will decide the cuts were too deep and the system will have to spool up again at short notice....

[AngryDave]

There were no official briefs last week, just the usual 'We know nothing, we'll let you know as soon as we do'. So how did that one go then?

Briefings are taking place tomorrow, although at different times so we'll be relying on this place to find out if we still have jobs.

Have also just seen photos on Facespace of big news vans outside CHOM gates.

[NutherA2]

From the Telegraph:

The RAF has an estimated 210 fully qualified fast jet pilots

How does this compare with the number of Group Captains and Air Ranks?

[merlinxx]

How long before we see Cameron on arrival at Northolt or Heathrow waving a document saying "Peace in our time" ?

[minigundiplomat]

As Alistair Darling said in May 2010:
Message to new minister: ‘There’s no money – good luck!’


Actually the note was left by Liam Byrne, Chief Secretary to the Treasury.


How long before we see Cameron on arrival at Northolt or Heathrow waving a document saying "Peace in our time" ?

The Coalition inherited a country in chaos, an in-tray full of demands for payment and an empty safe.
Likewise, the Good Mr Osborne hasn't made any of the decisions on cutting pilots. He has informed the MOD of how much less they have to spend, and asked them to cut their cloth accordingly.

The blame for the cuts lies with the previous 'government', and it is the Senior Officers and CS who have decided where the axe will fall.


How does this compare with the number of Group Captains and Air Ranks?


There are roughly 300 odd Gp Capt, and 100+ Air Ranks. Obviously for our 300+ stations!

[fincastle84]

Maybe this is Cameron's way of getting recruits for his "Big Society"!

It's a crying shame for these young guys & gals to be treated so badly. Hopefully their spirit & character which got them through the selection procedure will stand them in good stead through the difficult weeks ahead.

[Track Coastal]

Very Sad.

As an antepodean observer (ex Blue and player in finance) may I point out your govts, current and past have spent billions upon billions to support:

"The City" (a Thatcher creation - f*ck maunufacturing just go with financial services);
Billions bailing out banks after their high risk practices; and,
Middle class welfare that will never be touched.Consider that $3-4 Trillion in FX exchanges hands A DAY. A third of that volume is though "The City". So at least $1T flys through London a day.

$250Trillion a year. $250,000 Billion a year.

Would $20B USD keep the squadrons alive? Thats less than 12 hours FX activity what about a wee bailout for the boys?

BBC NEWS | Business | UK banks receive £37bn bail-out (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7666570.stm)
.

[NURSE]

Track costal i agree with the sentiment but with some elements in the city beleiving that the UK isn't Bank friendly and they should move to you're neck of the woods. I'd like to see their bluff called. But given how many eggs are in that basket can the govt risk it? The Conservitive and Nu Labour govts chose to run down industry to rely on financial and service sector to provide the company with its living . You in Australia having loads of natural resources that the Chinese want to feed their industrial economey.
Until we devlop another manufacturing base wether that be hight tech pharmacuticals or electronics but it looks like we've missed the boat on that one to with big names disappearing to the east!

[cazatou]

Contacted

The United States Senate and House of Representatives provide an "Upper House" of 100 Senators and a "Lower House" of 435 Representatives.

The United Kingdom House Of Lords has 736 voting Lords and the House of Commons has 646 MP's.

There are also Northern Ireland , Scottish and Welsh Assemblies - although not an English one.

If we got rid of a lot of the lifelong "Jobs for the Boys" in Parliament and reduced the numbers to the same as the USA there would be significant savings.

[manccowboy]

The blame for the cuts lies with the previous 'government',

Easy to blame the last government, actually it was the banking and financial sectors who got us in this mess.....you know the same people who are STILL awarding themselves big bonus's while everyone else suffers.

Its a bloody disgrace and Ive yet to see anyone held accountable, it makes me sick to be British :yuk:

[Track Coastal]

NURSE

The reply of
mancowboy
Easy to blame the last government, actually it was the banking and financial sectors who got us in this mess.....you know the same people who are STILL awarding themselves big bonus's while everyone else suffers.

Its a bloody disgrace and Ive yet to see anyone held accountable, it makes me sick to be British
...is spot on. 10B is hours of FX. You are getting f*cked over.

You lose your military you lose your sovereignty. Viva La France eh?

I wrote a paper years ago on how effective the British 'bang for buck' was compared to our wastage. The British armed forces were a model.

Australian resources? We have managed to offshore all wealth and spend any pieces of Silver in the biggest property bubble in the history of the world.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Firstly my condolences to the baby pilots..

A few thoughts:
Had a relly who was chief poster for a tour. Apparently the numbers game hasn't worked since the RAF was born, one way or the other, mainly due to training systems working on longer timescales than politics, and of course those pesky wars.

'Wars begin when you you will, but do not end when you please' Machiavelli.

It's happened before - a good friend of mine got laid off after Tac Weapons in the early '70s, spent a few years as an Estates Manager, then went on to a very successful career in commercial flying. I'm sure the 'get up and go' that got the current generation recruited won't desert them.

I expect some ruckus if the number of Air Officers doesn't drop though...One hat with scrambled egg per aeroplane?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Getting out of the nonsense that is Afghanistan would help. (And I mean now, not in a few years) That alone could save the RAF and our military in general.

[Madbob]

I would say it's time that the Bank of England applied some "quantative easing" for the benefit of the RAF/FAA/AAC.

I joined the RAF as a baby pilot in 1979 and well remember the threatened cuts (in 1981) of the RAF being about to lose its Shacks, Canberras, Vulcans and at least a squadron of Hercs. It was not a time to be streamed into Group 2! :eek::eek:

The Falkland War came in 1982 and Maggie found suddenly that she (and the country) needed us. When the war was over, she even did her best to plug the holes left by assets being deployed down south and we even bought 15 F4J's :ok::ok: to replace 23 sqn. Gawdon B didn't even order replacements for the combat losses in either Iraq or Afg, let alone allow for the increased rate of fatigue being consumed thus shortening the planned in-service lifetimes of C-130's (and other platforms).

The legacy of these cuts I fear will be it will forever deter people to ever aspire to join the armed forces - I have two sons at university and I am ever so glad that they are NOT in the armed forces and trying to follow my footsteps! Mind you, when I was thinking about joining the literature dished out by the Careers Info Offices was that we had 385 MRCA's or order, plus 200 Jaguars coming into service and that was in addition to the Phantoms, Harriers and Buccs!!

The dedication, commitment and serious application required to endure 4 years of training (possibly more with holding :() makes things even worse. I wonder where the governmant thinks it is going to get its future pilots from, not just for the frontline, but even contract providers for SAR(H) and MFTS will I expect be relying on a certain pool of ex-service aircrew, QFI's/QHI's etc. and at this rate that source may not be enough!

No prospective pilot will ever believe the recruitment officers again with expansive plans of cockpits waiting to be filled. :ugh::ugh:

So short-sighted......my sympathies go to those who put so much in and now get so little out.

MB

[manccowboy]

Getting out of the nonsense that is Afghanistan would help. (And I mean now, not in a few years) That alone could save the RAF and our military in general.

With no conflict to fight these coalition cost cutting muppets would have a field day :=

[fincastle84]

Getting out of the nonsense that is Afghanistan would help. (And I mean now, not in a few years) That alone could save the RAF and our military in general.

Don't believe it. When that happens it will give the politicians yet another excuse to cut back even more severely! RAF - RIP.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Agreed...what I said is "could".

[manccowboy]

Agreed...what I said is "could".

Agreed but I meant "won't" :)

We'd end up with microlights with roundels on them if this lot had there way :ugh:

[minigundiplomat]

Easy to blame the last government, actually it was the banking and financial sectors who got us in this mess.....


The banks did get the UK into a mess, as you point out. However, the MOD had a £38Bn black hole in its finances - even after SDSR they found another £1Bn of problems. You cannot blame the Banks for that, that was the Government and MOD.

Not saying Banks are blameless, they are clearly not. But if we hadn't entered this process with £38Bn in overspend, we would not be taking some of the very severe measures we now see.

[Pontius Navigator]

Purely speculation but

Those being made redundant, are they being offered alternative employment within the RAF? (or Navy/Army crossovers) - or is it a straight 'see ya'.

It is not just a pilot issue, many other branches are also facing redundancy however it is possible that one or two might be offered a re-branch to Regiment or similar, but that is a pure supposition.

In addition, are they keeping only those doing well on their respective courses or is there some pseudo-PC ability/ethnicity/gender selection going on?

I think it is pretty certain that there will be no pseudo-PC in the process but I can equally predict that there will be claims that there was a bias against assumed minorities.

The real rub is doing well on their respective courses. Someone might be an absolute natural pilot acing all aspects of the flying but they may not be as strong in OQs. The one who is achieving 80-80 might be preferred over the 90-70 man.

if the RAF is making these folk redundant, presumably they can't at the same time be seen to recruit. Ergo, do recruiting offices say 'don't bother' and have they wound the OASC (or whatever it's called now) down?

Whether they are winding down OASC I don't know but it has been stated that the pilot tap is turned off until Jul next year so . . .

enforced retirees could be assumed to have made Air rank over time - what is their redundancy payment going to be based on. As little as they can get away with.

Now my question:

What about the young (21 year old) borderline redundee, could be reapply to OASC to rejoin as a former commissioned officer and restart training in 2013 or 2014?

no doubt in a years time someone will decide the cuts were too deep and the system will have to spool up again at short notice....

No bets here. There has been a continuous track record of releasing too many and ending up with too few. This has resulted in people rejoining in their 40s or serving beyond 55. It captures experience but goes against the whole ethos of a young service.

[Track Coastal]

QE boosts the Dow, which boosts the FTSE 100 (own QE), wealth abounds.

Russia and China (and a failed USA*)?

* US Municipal Bonds: The Next Crisis? | macrobusiness.com.au (http://macrobusiness.com.au/2011/02/us-municipal-bonds-the-next-crisis/)

[manccowboy]

The banks did get the UK into a mess, as you point out. However, the MOD had a £38Bn black hole in its finances - even after SDSR they found another £1Bn of problems. You cannot blame the Banks for that, that was the Government and MOD.

So who's lost their job over this?
Or have they moved to the financial sector :ok:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

but I thought the RAF was shortly to get a load more transport aircraft and helicopters. Why cut people destined for that work too?


Do keep up dear boy, the number of new aircraft supposedly coming into service won't nearly match the number of existing aircraft being scrapped.

And even if the 12 Chinooks appear by some miracle, it hardly makes up for the total loss of two large fleets of helicopters, does it?

[Mannschaft]

The press are mentioning the FJ, RW and ME streams but nothing of us who are either in the middle of EFT or just finished and awaiting streaming. I know we aren't as far down the chain but it still stings!

We have all got a meeting at Cranwell tomorrow to be told our fate. Bearing in mind we found out about the meeting after reading it in the telegraph! I think there's going to be a few more than a hundred of us going.

It's pretty devastating really.

[GeoAC]

I suppose that my son who is at Uni and in the UAS as an Officer Cadet (Volunteer) should just pack it in!

[Pontius Navigator]

Redundancy pot

[Sgt.Slabber]

Ironic that Flight International publishes this little gem today...

UK MFTS programme gears to train first students (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/14/353131/uk-mfts-programme-gears-to-train-first-students.html)

[Fake Sealion]

As a former Service pilot I find this to be hideous situation. The figures don't stack up of course if bums don't match up with available seats but nonetheless we can only imagine the anxiety being experienced across the training bases this evening.

To those who are made redundant tomorrow........difficult to offer any words of comfort and encouragement but for gawds sake try not to let your training go to waste.

I was in that position myself 30 years ago and still deeply regret not banging hard enough on enough doors :ugh:

Easier said than done I know with the army of frozen ATPLs out there to compete with:eek:

[cazatou]

I came across this today from a House of Lords debate on Defence on 27 Jan 2011.

Lord Guthrie

" The Last 3 CO's of 22 SAS have either left or are leaving the Army. They are worried about the future and the future of their Families."

[GeoAC]

Nothing to do with the way this Government is degrading the WHOLE of the UK Forces?? Being honest,I think that the knee-jerk reaction re terrorism is swaying minds!

[A2QFI]

Cameron is more likely to turn up waving a bit of paper saying "War in our time but we have nothing left to wage one with!

[AdLib]

For what it's worth ...

I've had the pleasure of working with Greeners and IMO he's an absolutely top chap. I have no doubt this will be going down like a cup of cold sick for him too.

I have the utmost sympathy for the young lads and lasses who have to face this abominable decision. The only comforting words I can think of are that you were chosen in the first place because you are exceptional people. This short sighted insanity does not change that fact one iota. I very much hope you use your exceptional qualities in your future exceptional careers - after tonight's mahoosive piss-up of course :}

[GeoAC]

Although I agree in part about what you say ,remember that a lot of those who have/are going through this nonsense have ,since an early age chosen and focussed on from an early age what they wanted to do! Schooling re Subjects were chosen (with the advice from Careers Officers} with the intention of joining the branch of the Armed Forces of their choice! My son has spent the last 5 years modelling his school/Uni courses AND was one of 23 accepted into the UAS from an application of over 200!
What chance his future in the RAF now? By the way he HAS been to Cranwell on Selection. missed his Pilot training by one point!

[Capt P U G Wash]

GeoAC, as crazy as this may sound your son stands more of a chance in the future if the hard decisions are taken now. The alternative to making large redundancies now would be to bear the bulge, have long holds and reduce the intake downstream (we have made that mistake before). There is no simple or painless answer but cuts now mean a healthier system in 2 years time. Although those leaving soon will be deeply upset, the chances are the pain would have been prolonged if they had stayed. I wish them well.

[Torchy]

I wonder how the decision process works for this? The unfortunate youngsters learning their fate tomorrow will have had to be "streamed" by the "organisation" into who stays or who goes. This process couldn't have happened overnight - some work must have been going on over the past few days or weeks, or more, to get to tomorrow's "event". Some studes must have continued to fly and work hard towards their goal over the last few weeks not knowing that they never had a chance. Dreadful.

[GeoAC]

To me it`s a false economy! Why train people up to certain standard then stop? Fine ,if the intention is to save money.So why not just put a put a freeze on new intakes? However,anyone who has had the pleasure of serving with the RAF in whatever way, KNOWS that it cannot be run like a business!

[Roger Committed]

What's the betting they will be screaming out for pilots and ramping up recruitment in a couple of years time. Only basing this view on what has happened several times in the past. No consolation to those affected, good luck for the future to those who get the bad news.

The real villain of the piece is Incapability Brown; he treated the military with contempt, sold the gold and spent any money that we could have used to bail out the banks when the smart thing to do was to pay off the national debt. I can't believe he is now making millions from jetting round the world telling people how he saved it, at the expense of attending parliament.

[oldbeefer]

I'm a bit out of touch, but this must be caused by the FTSs pushing out more studes than the OCUs can cope with. I've heard tales of 18mth holdovers. The skill fade for an abo during that period is huge. So, sooner or later, someone has to turn off the tap for a while. When I finished rotary training in '70, I had two days to wait before the OCU started. The present situation will be hard on the youngsters, but has to happen if the basic training machine has been overproducing. Different situation for the fast-pointy-things but there, the number of jets to fly has been cut dramatically, so almost inevitable.

[GeoAC]

Can someone tell me if the RAF is still training overseas students?

[Bismark]

The current move is completely logical given the SDSR outcomes (and the further PR11 effect).

The RAF have been overstating the requirement for a while now and they need to get back in balance for the future requirement. Selection should continue to meet future need and those subsequently trained should look forward to a fully rewarding career on the assumption the "manners" have got their sums right. If the pyramid is the same shape then ones chance of reaching the top should be the same as it was last year (probably better as the RAF has always been over-manned in comparison to the other two Services - not a complaint they just have better manning rules - CMR etc for an over-inflated task).

In truth the RAF should probably have a strength of about 21,000.

[orca]

Whilst I have lost the ability to be surprised of late, can someone manage it by telling me, in light of all the other news, whether or not the aircrew FRI is continuing?

Desperately sorry for the chaps about to get the bad news, speaking as one who found out his flying days are over just the other day.

[High_Expect]

Yes GeoAC we are. But what has that got to do with the price of fish?

[GeoAC]

Is this not a case of the "Bosses " becoming "Yes" men to protect their Pensions??

[GeoAC]

So it`s ok to train others for money,(as they did in MY day) but not our own??

[Pilotish]

There may be jobs coming up in airlines for guys with lots of hours fixed wing both jets and multis but for guys on EFT and the rotary guys getting pilot jobs will be nigh on impossible

[camelspyyder]

Foreigners still training?

well not exactly - some of the WSO's arbitrarily chopped in Dec10 were RAF - and some were not.

Thinking about that - chopping of WSO students didn't produce anything like the current level of outrage...

anyone would think the wider RAF community only cared about the 2-winged master race:E

CS(one wing only)

[747guru]

Heard the news on BFBS radio today on the way back from work, had to listen to the next hourly news bulletin, just to confirm that my ears weren't playing tricks with me.....VERY sad news indeed boys & girls :o(

As an ex-Herc bloke, I have seen how hard (most) crew members work during the early months and years of their initial training, and first Sqn tour, and for many it has been a life's ambition to be RAF aircrew, truly tragic....

Incidentally, looking at the "big picture" over the past 2 weeks regarding BFBS news stories alone, I can't help thinking that we may have to "reconsider" using "Great" & "Britain" in the same breath....

- Axe Nimrod (we live on an island FFS!!!)
- Cut back on 24hr helo SAR cover (ditto above...)
- Sail an aircraft carrier for 10yrs without aircraft on board (ditto above...)

You can't make this stuff up????

I have lived outside UK for more than 10 yrs now as a civvy and from a Brit looking in from the outside, it is not a pretty picture believe me!

[teeteringhead]

GeoAC overseas students? ...my dear chap, I think you'll find they are now "International Partners" ...

...... how's THAT for yuckspeak.....:ugh:

[High_Expect]

GeoAC I'm not saying it's morally correct. It does, however, allow us to retain at least some options for if things change in the future ie. more students are required* at least these other Air Forces will have been keeping our instructors current and airfields open. Or in certain cases use up some of the already paid for flying hours with at least some return.

The whole thing sucks and I feel for everyone of the students.


* will happen in the future.

[GeoAC]

LOL! Been trying to get son to play with choppers!!

[GeoAC]

You mean Choggies etc?? I think we single handedly trained the Malaysian Air Force!! Although they MUST have lost a third of the Hunters at Brawdy on their own!!

[GeoAC]

Sorry ,High,but I think that we are beyond the point of no return. Whoever posted the "Hang glider" comment isn`t far from the truth.

[Pontius Navigator]

Some studes must have continued to fly and work hard towards their goal over the last few weeks not knowing that they never had a chance. Dreadful.

That is perfectly reasonable. As their training progresses they will improve or
flounder. If the decision was made before Christman the weaker stude would be chopped in due course and the one who might have improved would never know.

As BEagle said elsewhere, only those that have tried realise just how much they effort they put in to succeed.

[Capt P U G Wash]

Bismark, at the risk of biting. You cannot possibly get away with that remark without explaining your reasoning. The rules are universally applied, albeit with a different methodology by each Service. This reduction is a simple pro rata reduction to the changes in front line cockpit numbers. SDSR was not planned for by manning, why should it have been? Anyway by the same logic how overmanned does the RN fixed wing FAA look right now? No doubt they are next.

[GrahamO]

However you look at it and however one may wish to play with numbers of people or assets, for the first time in living memory, the armed forces are on a budget.

And no more money is available - alien concept I know since 1945 but one with which any individual is familiar with. The bucket runneth dry.

Maybe one Typhoon less and spend the money on people ? Or is that too radical ? Or too late and maybe someone is wishing they had not pushed the numbers of Typhoon too hard ?

[Capt P U G Wash]

GrahamO, could you explain how you fly 100 more pilots on one less Typhoon?

[GrahamO]

Well you cannot, obviously, but if you save a whole load of dosh by not having one of the later tranche Typhoons, then you could have some cash now to at least let some of the chaps finish their flight qualifications which may give them a chance in commercial aviation.

Your general point is well made however - if there are more pilots than aircraft at any given point in time, something has to give.

[Capt P U G Wash]

I can assure you that if less money was spent on equipment (and the Typhoon bill has already been mostly paid, unlike other equipment out there) it would not be reinvested - it would be taken as a saving.

And as nice as it would be to help the guys and girls leaving with a leg up, the tax payer might have something to say about that one.

The bottom line here is that the Service recruit to a long term plan (especially for aircrew due to the cost of their training), when that plan changes as dramatically as it just has on SDSR there is no easy answer.

[Rude C'man]

So who squeeled to the telegraph !! tut tut . yes International will make up 70 % of the next IOT yes Pilits WSO and WSOps are up for the chop , the least favourable candidates will loose thier careers along with amny others and YES I qoute "recruiting willl be back to normal in 18-24 months" DIOR !!
Its a sh!t RAF its a sh!t country, me if I get the chop , I'm off abroad to spend the pay out . My thoughts are with those who are not in a happy place and ask those senior officers ( who out number those in WW2 " WTF over ?" )

[randomrover]

Capt PUG

RN Fixed Wing was quietly dismantled months ago. Over two thirds of the pilots in training were axed through no fault of their own and despite winning prizes on flying courses. Fortunately the FAA has continued to embrace them and they will trickle through shawbs over the next 14 months.

Best of luck to the RAF trainees, hopefully as one door closes another will open.

[exgroundcrew]

I was an Air Radio Fitter in 1965 when the RAF wanted to contract and asked for volunteers for redundancy (no payout by the way). This was to be carried out in two phases, the first phase consisted of a number of trade groups and those that asked were let go. Come the second phase which included the electronic trades, the majority who requested redundancy where refused but those who did not where in many cases compulsorily made redundant. It later transpired that the RAF had noticed the ones that went in the first phase were the best they had, and no doubt were able to secure a very good job outside the Mob. I assume the RAF used the second phase to identify their best tradesmen and decided to keep them!
I wonder what criteria the RAF will use this time, if any!

[MarkJJ]

Just wanted to say how sorry I’m to hear this news for you guys, I am ex green myself out 2 years now in flying in North America now.

Keep you chins up and keep looking you will find work in the world somewhere, you have already proven to yourselves that you can do it, now just got find the right place to do it, too bad for the RAF that’s all. Go out there and get them, best of British luck to you all you deserve it.
.:ok:

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

my gut wrenched this morning when I read this sad news..

I was chopped many many years ago through my own lack of ability and I was distraught. i cannot imagine what it must be like to have the carrot of a fantastic career dangled and then snatched away at the last minute. My lad is 16 and well on track to do what he wants but he is concerned for his future now (yes he wants to fly) - it is all one massive cluster:mad:

Is it sensationalism by the media that is suggesting pilots only "hours away from finishing...will lose their jobs" ? surely it must be a case of last in first out, ie those that have had less effort and money expended on them ...I don't know (am I being naive in thinking that this will have been considered) :eek:
and finally. food for thought.....
How long before the Reds go? I was always told they were there to recruit more "Future Pilots" seems there ain't gonna be much of a call for them now is there.

[Phil_R]

Do keep up dear boy, the number of new aircraft supposedly coming into service won't nearly match the number of existing aircraft being scrapped.

And even if the 12 Chinooks appear by some miracle, it hardly makes up for the total loss of two large fleets of helicopters, does it?

Wha, hang on a sec. Helicopters? I thought we were desperately short of helicopters? I thought people in Afghanistan were needlessly being blown up because there weren't enough helicopters to fly them over the IEDs?

Aargh!

P

[Pilotish]

No it's definitely not going to be first in last out. They have to keep the training system going so being near the end isn't really a big advantage. And the rotary chop has nothing to do with SDSR, it's just pure total mismanagement by the brass and civil servants. That's what makes me especially sick.

[wiggy]

Just wanted to say how sorry I’m to hear this news for you guys

Can I just take an opportunity to second that. I remember my Military Flying training being hard enough as it was and that was without the added hurdles of political interference along the career path.

I'm not as optimistic as some as to the willingness of the civilian sector to pick up all those laid off ( well not immediately) but whilst sitting on a civvy flight deck airline flying lacks some of the attraction and glamour :sad: of military FJ flying there are worse places to be so it's an option worth considering should the axe fall. Good luck.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Yes, its a big upset for the people involved, but its the overall reduction in the Service(s) that should really concern us. I don't mean to sound callous but people are being chopped every week and we don't have hundreds of posts of wailing and gnashing of teeth over it. They joined well aware of the chop rate. They've been chopped. That it is not their failing does not make it an iniquity unless your line is that those less than perfect (like me)"deserved" being "fairly" chopped. That would be callous. It is a harsh reality of military flying training that we all accepted as part of the deal - most won't make it and it has been so for generations. They'll get over it. We all did.

The future of a once-proud nation reduced to a token military is an entirely more fundamental matter that we should be concentrating on, and not getting aerated over a handful of broken dreams.
Of course we all feel sorry for them as I hope we do for anyone who is chopped, but a fleet with no carriers or carriers with no aircraft, a maritime nation with no maritime surveillance, squaddies with useless comms and no helicopters and less fighter pilots than MPs scares the heck out of me. Let's not lose sight of the woods for the trees here. A couple of hundred extra highly talented young people in the job market is hardly of significance in the overall scheme of things. They'll get jobs, and good ones. The state of our "defences" is an entirely different matter.

[wiggy]

A. b.

I don't mean to sound callous but people are being chopped every week
It is a harsh reality of military flying training that we all accepted as part of the deal - most won't make it and it has been so for generations. They'll get over it. We all did.

Yep, I've been made well aware of that as both a student ( even as one who was on review, lots of fun, that was :rolleyes:) and much later on as a BFTS QFI who saw chopped students reduced to tears ( never understood why they called me "chopper wiggy" :ooh:). Nevertheless it still seems extra tough on the current generation of trainees. Why? Well in addition to the risk of being chopped because they can't fly a circuit or they are unable to manage a 2 ship FRA at TaC weapons a significant number are now going to chopped not because of a lack of ability or a lack of effort but simply because the Treasury says so.


its the overall reduction in the Service(s) that should really concern us

You'll get no argument from me on that, the services must fast be dwindling below critical mass, but does the general population care??

[vikingdriver]

Streaming= FJ
Superstreaming = FJ
Role Confirmation = FJ
SDSR (With 2 wings) = Join the dole queue.

[casino335]

Agree that it's very sad news, not only for those individuals going, but for the RAF and the country, too....and this is probably just the start.

Think the comment about "does the population care" is bang on target because I don't believe the general public give two monkeys about defence - that's why it makes it easier to rip the guts out of the RAF and RN. This country for a while has become plagued with "aslong as I'm alrite Jack, then I dont really care" and "NIMBY nation". A far cry from the nation my dad and grandad grew up in.

[Track Coastal]

You'd think halting or easing back on pilot intakes for however long would be logical rather than wasting the 2 million a pop it takes to train these blokes. Plus when you fire them you'll be paying them the dole anyway. Dumb in so many ways.

[Finnpog]

There was a post earlier (or it was in the 'training pipeline clogged' thread) that stated that were currently some holding tours of 18 months +. As rough as this decision is, has there been no previous attempt to reduce the throughput of pilot training folk?

Those figures suggest that somehow, somewhere (over the rainbow?) that there has been some mismanagement in the system already - and that includes over-recruiting as well as over-training.

[Farfrompuken]

GrahamO
'for the first time in living memory'.........

and

'alien concept....since 1945'.......

Get your head out of your backside. The RAF (and all the services) have been feeling the pinch for decades but none more so than the last 10 years.

The service is broken beyond repair, it really is, and these individuals although unpalatable as it may seem right now have been spared from being tied to a a sinking ship.

I hope they get professional resettlement and a sensible severance package.

[LFFC]

The news came as RAF chiefs were to announce cuts to more than half of their pilots who have been trained at a cost to the taxpayer of more than £1  billion.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt that 360 air crew will also be sacked today, in addition to a quarter of 400 trainee pilots being made redundant. They have cost the taxpayer £300 million in training.

Senior Whitehall sources have also disclosed that over the next four years, a total of 472 pilots will be made redundant, reducing the RAF to a “pitiful force”.

There is said to be growing fury in the upper ranks of the RAF, with the Chief of the Air Staff in conflict with senior commanders over the scale of cuts. RAF command was a “crucible of ill-feeling and that starts at very, very senior levels”, a senior military figure said.

Figures passed to this newspaper show the level of cuts that will be forced on the RAF across the board. An estimated 108 pilots will be taken from the fast jet fleet, 176 from helicopters, including some Navy and Army pilots, and 188 from air transport, trainers and surveillance.


MoD official is paid more than David Cameron (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/8324478/MoD-official-is-paid-more-than-David-Cameron.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

Finnprog, one reason holds occur is because the students are too good, the instructors are too good and OASC was too good.

It happened back in the 60s too. The nav schools had a given number of slots per course. The into ITS expected some failures. The basic nav course could then take 18 per month with a proportion of chopped pilots and the rest straight through navs or siggies converting.

The next nav school was established for courses of, IIRC, 14 which included Cranwell basic navs coming for the advanced phase.

It followed that the basic nav school had to reject 5-6 students per course. After much humming and harring they back coursed increasing numbers in the basic nav school. All but one of our course was put back one month to start again and higher up the tree fewer and fewer were back coursed until the system was sorted.

As an aside, the one who was not back coursed passed out on time, went through the next 2 schools and OCU only to get killed within a month of arriving on his sqn.

[GrahamO]

@Farfrompuken " The RAF (and all the services) have been feeling the pinch for decades but none more so than the last 10 years."

Very true - and were still allowed to stray well beyond their budget. The Armed Forces for whatever reason, have never stayed within budget or forecast in the last decade even if you take out the costs of operations. I make no comment on the reasons or their validity. But my experience is that the forces are actually more cost effective when at war as a lot of the bureaucracy goes away and pragmatism reigns.

My point was that for the first time ever, the budget is no longer a 'guide' to be stepped over, and has been replaced by a wall which cannot be bypassed.

I too hope anyone affected gets a good resettlement payout.

[saudih]

the guys concerned better check their e-mails......
MoD Sorry For Sacking Soldiers By Email






Share (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/MoD-Email-Sacking-Army-Apologises-For-Distress-After-It-Fired-38-Servicemen-By-Email/Article/201102315931154?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Header_0&lid=ARTICLE_15931154_MoD_Email_Sacking%3A_Army_Apologises_Fo r_Distress_After_It_Fired_38_Servicemen_By_Email#bookmarkFor m)
Comments (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/MoD-Email-Sacking-Army-Apologises-For-Distress-After-It-Fired-38-Servicemen-By-Email/Article/201102315931154?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Header_0&lid=ARTICLE_15931154_MoD_Email_Sacking%3A_Army_Apologises_Fo r_Distress_After_It_Fired_38_Servicemen_By_Email#comments)
8:01am UK, Tuesday February 15, 2011
The Ministry of Defence has apologised for "causing distress" after it sacked 38 soldiers - including one serving in Afghanistan - by email.

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/Jul/Week2/15664361.jpg The sacked troops were told it was because the Army needed to make savings

News of the blunder comes a day after it was revealed a quarter of the RAF's trainee pilots will not get a job (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Defence-Cuts-Up-To-One-Quarter-Of-New-RAF-Pilots-To-Be-Lost-As-Trainees-Are-Cut-MoD-Sources-Say/Article/201102215930035) in the service due to Government spending cuts.
The warrant officers who were dismissed by email were told it was because the Army also needed to make savings.
The message read: "I write to notify you that with regret, I must issue you with 12 months' Notice of Termination.
"As I'm sure you are aware the Army has to make significant cutbacks and we... are expected to play our part in reductions."
According to The Sun, the 38 men have completed several decades' service and continued in the Army on a rolling contract called the Long Service List.
However, the paper claimed one veteran soldier received the bad news while on the front line in Afghanistan.
An Army spokesperson said: "We apologise for the distress that this will have caused.
"Commanding officers have now spoken the soldiers concerned to ensure that they receive all necessary advice and support."
Shadow defence secretary Jim Murphy said the Government should apologise for the mistake.
"To be sacked by email is a shameful and callous way to be treated," he said.

[tucumseh]

There is little point comparing this to Bernard Gray's appointment. One of his predecessors was also pulling an Admiral's pension and was notorious for ruling that it was acceptable to knowingly waste huge sums while saving money at the expense of safety. (He wasn't named by H-C or Gray in their reports). If Gray rescinds such rulings he is worth every penny. Big IF though.


As for notifying by e-mail - utterly despicable. One of the civil service practices the Army should not have adopted. At least it seems they didn't copy it to everyone, as happened to an old boss of mine.


Regarding loss of pilots, I hope there is an equivalent loss at the top of the pyramid.

[sitigeltfel]

SNCOs an WOs are the backbone of all services. To treat them is such a callous manner is indicative of the prevailing mindset in the MOD. My distaste at this treatment is tempered by my low expectations from these incompetents.

[cazatou]

I trust that someone is getting prepared for the "Hats On" interview.

[Pontius Navigator]

Some interesting letters in the ex-torygraph today and not one sympathetic to the RAF.

[Clockwork Mouse]

To simply terminate the baby pilots' commissions after investing millions in their training is illogical and irresponsible, as was destroying the brand new, never used Nimrods. Babies thrown out with the bathwater!
A more sensible solution would perhaps be to complete the training of those approaching wings standard and then transfer them to the reserve. They would then form a pool of basic qualified officer pilots who could be brought back in if needed and willing the next time we have a shortage, as I am sure we will.

[Al R]

I once got a letter dropped off by a Chinook somewhere near the Bihac Pocket, telling me I wasn't being made redundant. Gutted! :(

To those who are about to have their dreams smashed; chins up folks. Wishing you 'good luck' is totally inadequate, but by getting this far, you have already demonstrated that you can rise to the top. Now remember that we are measured not by how we respond to success, but by how we react to setback. You're only truly down and out when you don't get back up.

[Yozzer]

Since Pontious first went solo, it has been that elements of the military community have not spoken to each other. For example: We recruit 20 people to a specific trade to fill vacancies of ...ergh ...20! But one gets chopped, one is on long term sick through injury sustained in training and one bangs out because he misses his mum. Assuming there are no other problems, we get 17 through to advanced training. We do not and never have done recruit the extra three for attritition, either in projected planning or making up a deficit within the same finacial year. The same story applies to promotion lists when some selected for promotion either PVR anyway or if airman trades, get commisioned instead.

To the point: Manning have always be detrimentally focused without the flexibility required to think 'bigger picture'. We can be pretty certain that there is no logic being applied to present events to cater for PVRs on hold awaiting redundancy decisions, or gambling on the perceived uptake in the civil aviation related job market. ....and therefore the future overswing in Manning and subsequent shortage of persons across the spectrum from Ab-Initio recruit to CR Jet Jock is a dead cert.

.... and as for the Army WOs getting their UB40 by eMail today: :mad:

[dallas]

SNCOs an WOs are the backbone of all services. To treat them is such a callous manner is indicative of the prevailing mindset in the MOD. My distaste at this treatment is tempered by my low expectations from these incompetents.
In the early 90s my SNCO got a signal sending me on a OOA without the [then] requisite amount of notice. I was called in for an office chat with her and my flight cdr and everyone was very helpful and supportive. I had a wife but no kids, and it wasn't even anywhere dangerous (well, Al Qaeda blew it up 6 months after I left). On reflection my bosses' response was a bit too much.

My point is stuff was done sensitively and with considerations for the individual wherever possible. There were also double the number of people then. That f**king people about has now become routine is no excuse for not still treating them like people, and stuff like redundancy nominees should be treated as extremely (that's bold, size 5, underlined in italics) sensitive until the individual has received the courtesy of being told. Whoever ignored that courtesy through slapdash procedure needs a stiff bollocking.

In 2006 I wrote a very robustly worded letter to the RAF News about how 30 or so people on my current OOA det had about 2-3 weeks left of det but nobody had nominated replacements (so couldn't tell families a homecoming date / plan etc), while others were getting dates a week or so after their 'finishing post' date. As most of us know, stuff like coming home date really matters. The letter took me hours to get just right so I was a bit peeved it was never published. Wrote to the editor of RAF News who explained it had been sent to the right person for an official reply but nothing was heard back even after a reminder. Editor then reminded me he worked for Pravda.

Defence cuts apart, the one free win (low hanging fruit if airships ever read this) that's within our grasp is to get better at managing people. 'Open door' is like IiP - meaningless unless something tangible results, so how about using JPA to show people where they are on various lists, not forgetting some stuff (eg. redundancy) still needs to be done by humans first!

[Pontius Navigator]

We recruit 20 people to a specific trade to fill vacancies of ...ergh ...20! But one gets chopped, one is on long term sick through injury sustained in training and one bangs out because he misses his mum. Assuming there are no other problems, we get 17 through to advanced training. We do not and never have done recruit the extra three for attritition, either in projected planning or making up a deficit within the same finacial year.

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

If one school has an input of 18 per month and the next school can accept only 14, how do you account for the 4 spare bods?

You cite 3 cases for attrition but it is a fact that a number will also washout during training. I later kept the stats at the one Nav school and the percentage dropping out for medical or personal reasons was a near constant 3-4%. The numbers being recoursed was also a near constant 40%. The numbers getting chopped was again pretty static at 20%.

Numbers in-to-training are always greater than the numbers required on the front line. This is a very delicate balance and better success in training resulted in more getting through to wait operational conversion. A change in the training syllabus, when we switched from training V-bomber Navs, resulted in fewer being recoursed early on but I think the overall failure rate remained near 20%. Oddly that was exactly the same as 50 years ago when we had 2 Nav Schools.

[500days2do]

Endured the rant by one ex senior army officer this morning on 5 Live bemoaning the state of the MOD post Nu Labour..."appalling management"... he was corrected by the presenter who informed him that it was the Army not the MOD who had sent the emails.. attention to detail old chap if you ask me...undid his rant in a moment...t@sser

5d2d

[MrBernoulli]

I post the quote below, from the BALPA website, merely for info. I don't know what it really means or entails. If you are a military pilot, and an associate (?) member of BALPA, as I was when in the RAF (subs were then £24 a year), maybe you should contact them and see what they can offer.

BALPA STEPS IN TO HELP REDUNDANT RAF PILOTS, WARNS OF SHORTAGE AND CALLS FOR SUMMIT Commenting on the news that a quarter of the RAF's trainee military pilots are to be made redundant (some a few hours short of their Wings) Captain Mark Searle (Chairman of the British Airline Pilots' Association) said 'This is bad news all round, but it is not an uncommon experience for many civilian pilots who have invested £130,000 of their own money to get a commercial licence and then find they face life as a casual employee or being "let go" without warning.

'But the military announcement should ring alarm bells with anyone who cares about UK aviation.'

With many military pilots eventually finding themselves at the controls of commercial aircraft, today's cuts, he said, when combined with the increasingly cyclical hire and fire nature of commercial aviation, will mean that in the mid to long term UK plc is going to find itself with a pilot shortage and less able to compete as a nation.

BALPA's tactical response to the announcement will be to step up the help it gives to its military members with support on job opportunities, guidance on entering the world of commercial aviation and access to pilot mentors.

'But the more strategic approach is to continue to press individual airlines to shoulder more of the responsibility for training,' said Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of BALPA.

' With few exceptions airlines have walked away from their responsibilities to put something akin to apprenticeship back into the industry. The military's decision adds to the problem.'

Captain Mark Searle said that the Government has tough choices to make on public expenditure, and no one envies them. 'But it could do more to help. For instance, now faced with making 100 skilled trainees redundant, it could call a high level summit to look at 'joined up solutions' between military and civilian operations. It could knock some heads together in the industry to get apprenticeships moving.

' Longer term it could look at a new loan scheme (akin to student loans) to get able students, whatever their background, into the profession rather than the commercial loans that have to be repaid over three years.'

BALPA, Jim McAuslan said, is ' bristling with ideas - all we need is to be asked.'Bad times, really bad times ...... :uhoh:

[Wrathmonk]

Whilst a lot of what is said in the BALPA statement above is encouraging for those about to be 'shown the door' his comment ....

but it is not an uncommon experience for many civilian pilots who have invested £130,000 of their own money to get a commercial licence and then find they face life as a casual employee or being "let go" without warning

is a bit of a reality check (wake up call?) on what colour the grass is on the other side as well!

[c130jbloke]

Does anybody know what criteria is being used to make the decisions ? By this, I mean is it purely on training sorite assassment or is there some other method ?

I ask as I wonder if the senario will occur where a chopped FJ stude will some how crossover to a ME slot ( assumeing he was a nil training risk who in "normal" times would have been a dead cert for CR on a Harrier Sqn).

I hope I am making sense and my thoughts are with all of the students and staff today.

[Trim Stab]

Is there no option for some of the RW students to transfer to the AAC (assuming they wish to do so)?

The AAC are apparently not cutting back on training, so surely it would make sense to recruit some of the RW RAF students?

[airborne_artist]

A small but well-placed bird tells me that the briefing note says 170 will go, not 100.

Expect to see rather a lot of very disgruntled young chaps/chappesses from 17.00 today at the secret Salop training base.

[ZuluMike]

You said the RN had quietly dismantled its entire FW set up with little fuss, implying I think that the crabs should suck it up better? Can't let that pass.

The RN (cleverly) sent a number of its FW pilots to the USA to fly for a few years. One has to ask for justification for this on going cost.

Also - RN maintains the RN Fixed Wing Standards outfit. With no RN fixed aircraft to fly or fixed wing role for many years, how do you justify that?

Both these measures keep the pilots flying, and good on them for that, I wish them well with envy! But don't tell us the RN manned up to their pain better. How many of their FW pilots are actually out of a job? Didnt the rest get re-roled?

Can we just see this whole mess as sh!t for all aircrew regardless of service or brevet type?

Any news from valley yet?

[airborne_artist]

The RN (cleverly) sent a number of its FW pilots to the USA to fly for a few years. One has to ask for justification for this on going cost.

Also - RN maintains the RN Fixed Wing Standards outfit. With no RN fixed aircraft to fly or fixed wing role for many years, how do you justify that?


1. The RN is to receive a carrier sometime in the next few years, and perhaps even some aircraft to launch from it. The cost of re-gaining the skills is much more expensive than the cost of maintaining them.

2. FRADU.

[ExRAFAC]

A-A. I'm amazed that your little bird has the gall to tell you such salacious stuff. We were specifically briefed NOT to discuss numbers outside the room. Disgraceful the lack of loyalty some people show.....Oh, the irony of that statement!

[ZuluMike]

I refered to the RN's Naval Flying Standards Flight (Fixed Wing), based at Yeovs (who I understand are a detatched unit under FRADU). Their role is Fast Jet Continuation Trg, Fast Jet Familiarisation Trg, convex of rotary to FJ pilots...

According to SDSR, which we are told is driving this whole mess, there won't be any fixed wing aircraft to fly off the new CVS(s) before 2016-2018, so ...? We're going to keep these outfits going in the meantime?

Don't get me wrong, I am glad the guys are still flying. Even if you can argue that we need people flying F-18s for 5 years in preparation for the possibility of future CVS ops, I don't personally think you can justify Fixed Wing Standards. There has to be savings to be made in having that sort of thing subsumed by the joint military flying environment.

PS - why are the RN still training fighter controllers? Is this combined with French language courses in preparation for our Charles de Gaulle ops?

Let's not get picky - we're all feeling it. My point was just that I bit at the previous comment about the RN dismantling their FW system and not crying about it. They haven't which is why they didn't.

But today is mostly about the RAF's pilots and trainee pilots getting seen off, justified by SDSR or not. People are devasted. Hope there's a good supply of old pianos in the Vale of York, Linconshire and Anglesey...

[Jabba_TG12]

"There is said to be growing fury in the upper ranks of the RAF, with the Chief of the Air Staff in conflict with senior commanders over the scale of cuts. RAF command was a “crucible of ill-feeling and that starts at very, very senior levels”, a senior military figure said"

Well, if they feel that strongly about it, they know what they can do... but I bet a pound to a pinch of sh*t that none of them do.

Sympathy for the 38 WO's as well... but in the same way as the trainee pilots, these figures are being released as a political weapon through the press in order to try and discredit the decision makers/try and put one over on MOD/cause embarrassment, etc etc.

It wont have been done this way through incompetence. It would have been deliberately leaked in this manner to cause exactly the effect it has... for 24 hours until Joe Public has forgotten about it and moved back on to what happened in last night's EastEnders...:rolleyes:

[andyy]

ZM

PS. The RN are still training Fighter Controllers because there is still a need to be able to control fighters in a maritime environment, believe it or not. Whether those fighters are provided by the RAF (operating with HNS or tanking) or Allies.

[Tourist]

Zulu.

The RN does still have fixed wing pilots and aircraft, and will for the forceable future.

[teeteringhead]

Hope there's a good supply of old pianos in the Vale of York, Linconshire and Anglesey... .... and Shropshire too I trust.

[MrPVRd]

Utterly crazy and short-sighted. How much money has been urinated away training these guys? How much money will be wasted recruiting another tranche in five years time? RAF should restream or second them overseas (one way exchange?). They won't be to blame if they assemble en masse outside Stn gates at 1700hrs for a press conference...what more can the RAF or MoD do to them?

[Mr C Hinecap]

We were specifically briefed NOT to discuss numbers outside the room.

I was sent an Internal Briefing Note with figures on it - so one didn't need to be in any room. There is no caveat on the IBN either. :rolleyes:

[airborne_artist]

RAF should restream or second them overseas (one way exchange?)Re-stream them as what, exactly? The RAF is overmanned.

And which of the colonies is so short of pilots, do you think?

[glad rag]

Bad times, really bad times ...... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

And it's only February................

[Strobin Purple]

With the RN-RAF slaggin' about to start and a surprising amount of gleeful Schadenfreude on Arrse:

Grim day for the RAF - 25% of trainee pilots to be axed. (http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/157878-grim-day-raf-25%25-trainee-pilots-axed-2.html)

we, the services, really do deserve everything we get.

I can't really get over the responses of some so-called military aviators and their attitudes to those being made redundant today. It smacks of the society we are supposedly representing these days maybe? All about me, me, me (or my service, my service, my service)!

Imagine how we would be able to perform against the Treasury if all 3 services were simply mutually supportive of each other's capabilities and efforts and had a coherent view from all senior commanders?

.....I know, I know, I'll get me coat!

[MrPVRd]

It's the complete wrong end of the demographic spectrum. If the RAF is overmanned then those at the other end should be chopped. These baby pilots will have the airmanship experience to fit into a number of other branches, with lesser training time, with the prospect of giving productive flying service in later years. I would like to think that the RAF has looked at every possible option, rather than the easiest and most disloyal, but I somehow doubt it.

[sangiovese.]

Very saddened about all this but, if you have been made redundant today, balpa, oaa, bristol and several others are good ports of call for advice - perhaps they might even talk to crewrooms en masse. I hope they can help you all still join have a career in flying.

[camelspyyder]

Do you not think that chopping the top of the pyramid would leave a massive void of experience and leadership?

It seems to me that the aim is to slice the side off the pyramid. Today a third of the trainees have gone - on 1 Mar 11 we may see a third of the first tourists out and a third of the old lags (although my trade is overmanned by more than a third so I'm expecting it to be worse)

The RAF has not disposed of all of its new pilots, just the 30% we have no seats for.

A sad day nonetheless

CS

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

C130jBloke: Does anybody know what criteria is being used to make the decisions ? By this, I mean is it purely on training sorite assassment or is there some other method ?

I ask as I wonder if the senario will occur where a chopped FJ stude will some how crossover to a ME slot ( assumeing he was a nil training risk who in "normal" times would have been a dead cert for CR on a Harrier Sqn).

I hope I am making sense and my thoughts are with all of the students and staff today.


I don't think anyone yet knows the criteria that will be used for clearing the decks. We must assume though that some planning has gone into the task and that it has not been given to some disgruntled scribbly to pull names from a hat.

What you must hope though (and I do jest) is that it will not be based upon spelling ability but one cannot be certain ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

C130J,

As I surmised earlier, I suspect OQs will feature where there is a number of studes with similar skill/training risk levels.

As for a FJ pilot in the bottom quartile passing across to ME I would suspect not.

[Track Coastal]

Good OQs blurs with yes men. Poor OQs with smart blokes who ask hard questions.

[On_Loan]

ZM - The RN trains FCs not just to control British aircraft; its a big wide world out there and as our forces continue to shrink it can be the case where in the majority of cases it is a coalition affair- jets still need controlling and if you are a part of a task group you need to be prepared to do that

[BEagle]

Ah yes, good old Ahhh Roger Waitout will no doubt continue to confuse aircraft wherever HM's little grey boats continue to bob up and down on the briny....

Will the FCs embarked on HMS Incapability, the RN's future aircraftless carrier, have much to do? Or, errm, just play with themselves pretending to be fighter and target?

Today must go down as one of the blackest days in the RAF's post-war history.

[Runaway Gun]

With the poor guys and girls being told to leave before they get their wings, exactly what will they qualify for in respect to civilian licences?

Also, despite airlines suggesting they have a need for ex-military pilots, they are unlikely to take any of these quality aviators due to their relative inexperience.

[randomrover]

I was biting in turn at:

"Anyway by the same logic how overmanned does the RN fixed wing FAA look right now? No doubt they are next."

Today is a terrible day for the RAF and many individuals. I am absolutely gutted for many good friends who this will affect.

My point was that FAA Fixed Wing was hurting just as hard a few months ago. Fixed Wing Standards apart I'm not sure there is anything left to be "next".


"I bit at the previous comment about the RN dismantling their FW system and not crying about it. They haven't which is why they didn't."

It has and they are. We agree that today should be about those high calibre people who have been badly let down.

[A2QFI]

I think they will have no relevant qualifications from their RAF service. Strictly speaking they will be ex-RAF student pilots and that won't count for much either. Hard times all round I am afraid.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Getting my wings was one of the proudest days of my life.

I read the telegraph article on the flightdeck of my 777 on the way back home today with a big lump in my throat.

I loved my RAF days (12 yrs) but jumped to BA 5 years ago and havent looked back.

Any RAF student pilot who would like any advice about airline flying, or the options available to them, please PM me.

A very sad day.

[On_Loan]

Beagle, although I am more than capable of appreciating the banter :-) in the long run I think one shade of blue will probably have a more prosperous future than the other. But agreed, today is a sad day whichever your persuasion, no-one likes to see the decimation of the forces of whatever stripe

[Ramp Monkey]

AVM Green just briefed the official line at Cranwell , he's on route DHFS now , not good news at all !! alot of very very sad people. He started with a huge apology for the leak , I'll say no more I'm sure all the bars will be buzzing by 6 tonight.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Any gen over and above the IBN that can be released?

[Pontius Navigator]

Good OQs blurs with yes men. Poor OQs with smart blokes who ask hard questions.

So?




:)

[BEagle]

Good to note your banter-detector is on top line, On_Loan!

As (I think) Cazatou wrote earlier, things have now reached the stage where any unforeseen surge requirement would be impossible to meet.

There are virtually no available QFIs in the system free to train additional QFIs, no C&M aerodromes available for emergency reactivation, no fleets of training aircraft in mothballs or available at short notice....

Last time a small surge was needed, some folk were hoiked out of the front line to go to CFS so that the demand for additional new pilots could be met. That meant the front line working a little harder until augmentees filtered through. Conversely, some UAS QFIs went back to the front line during GW1....where are such people now, should the need arise? There aren't any. Which is perhaps just as well as they wouldn't have anything to to fly in any case.

And that was just to train future pilots in the art of big cows, small cows. The problem is far more severe for specialists such as Nimrod rear crew instructors whose experience will be essential when it comes to teaching newcomers, once Cameron's folly has proved to be as such.

I recall the exasperated words of a USN exchange officer on 56(F) back in 1982..."Royal Air Force? Hell, I've known aero clubs with more goddam airplanes!"

I left when I saw the control column starting to move aft and the rudder pedals starting to move. Then watched as the aircraft which was once the RAF departed and went incipient. Now it's in the fully developed spin and people with any experience will be punching out before it's too late...

[teeteringhead]

It seems to me that the aim is to slice the side off the pyramid. ... which is good - but we won't. As I've often (here and elsewhere) said, slicing the side gives you a similar (in the geometrical sense) triangle/pyramid, but the apex is lower! Just how small does the RAF (or RN ;)) have to get and still justify a 4* Chief and a 4* CinC....

[advocatusDIABOLI]

All,

after a quarter of a century in this Air Force, I just wrote a short note in my diary......... Bu&&er!

To all the unfortunates out there, all I can say is I personally feel for you all, and truely hope you all get through this utter cluster fl1p with your souls intact.

Most of the older posters here have seen Defence Reviews, but this is nothing short of blatant, cash grabbing vandalism. I believe, history will record as much.

Finally, and it hurts me to say, I don't think the worst is over yet. It may have been a very calculating choice to wield the axe at Pilots first. The natural sentiment being, 'If they will do that to them (the 2 winged masters) non of us are safe!'

Good Luck All for the future, I hope your next employer holds your skills in better regard than HMG clearly does.

Advo

[Air.Farce.1]

My heart goes out to any young aspiring RAF pilots, who have had their dream shattered. I can only imagine the heartache they are suffering.......
To get so far and to be shafted like this is awful.

[airsound]

Have just rxd an email from the RAF press office saying
MOD Spokesperson said: ‘Due to the reduction of the RAF’s aircraft fleet the number of student pilots in the Flying Training Pipeline will be reduced by up to 175. There will be some redundancies but we will, where possible, consider alternative roles for these trainees. This will not have an impact on operations.’quickly followed by another apologising for a typo
MOD Spokesperson said: ‘Due to the reduction of the RAF’s aircraft fleet the number of student pilots in the Flying Training Pipeline will be reduced by up to 170. There will be some redundancies but we will, where possible, consider alternative roles for these trainees. This will not have an impact on operations.’airsound

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

for what it's worth seems there is a beeb van outside the gates at LOO.

[airborne_artist]

quickly followed by another apologising for a typo
Quote:
MOD Spokesperson said: ‘Due to the reduction of the RAF’s aircraft fleet the number of student pilots in the Flying Training Pipeline will be reduced by up to 170. There will be some redundancies but we will, where possible, consider alternative roles for these trainees. This will not have an impact on operations.’
My little bird was singing the right tune then, though I take no pleasure in their hopes being trashed in such a way having got so far.

[airsound]

Beeb 1 'Look North' (Yorks) should be doing a piece about now (also Radio York tomorrow 0705 (Wed)

airsound

[switch_on_lofty]

Firstly I'd like to offer my sympathy to any of those being made redundant, especially those who haven't finished training.

In reply to those discussing RN fixed wing, Naval Standards Fixed Wing are not a large organisation by any means. They use FRADU-parented Hawks, but the organisation itself is an agent of CFS. See link below:
Royal Navy (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/establishments/naval-bases-and-air-stations/rnas-yeovilton/naval-flying-standards-flight-fixed-wing/index.htm)
Anyone arguing that they should be cut as a cost-saving measure should surely realise that this and their other important roles would have to be carried out by someone else therefore saving nothing.

Both the RN and RAF think that they've had it worst post-SDSR. As there are lots of people putting the RAF p.o.v, here's mine:
1) The RN has lost it's ENTIRE FW capability for a "gap". This has already happened. Yes Harrier was Joint but it's loss (and the subsequent retention of GR4) cannot be seen as primarily a loss to the RAF. Think of the guys who moved from SHAR at Yeovilton to Cottesmore/Wittering to now be without an aircraft.

2) RN pilots training in the states. All those on AV-8B loan were returned "negative coffee" after we backed out of the STOVL JSF. Those on F-18 remain, although in minute numbers. Yes you do need to keep people flying from carriers.

3) MR4A. An RAF asset but it's primary role was to protect SSBNs. Although SSBNs are a UK rather than an RN asset again it could be argued that the loss MPA hits the RN (in terms of capability) as much if not more than the RAF.

4) The current over-burden of pilots is not just a result of SDSR cut-backs. Holdovers in both Services have been ridiculous for some time now. The RN has not ruled out compulsory redundancy for aircrew, and we are looking at losing 1 in 7 of FAA personnel in the next 5 years.

5) If the new Chinook buy is cancelled, the RAF will fight tooth and nail to keep Merlin Mk3. This may leave CHF in a precarious position. Embarking 1 or 2 Chinooks (as another post alluded to) for a period of embarked flying is not the same as getting the most from a seaborne platform which is what RN aviation is all about.

[letsgoandfly]

Firstly, condolences to those who got the bad news - as Kinloss aircrew we're probably getting it in a few weeks / months.

Secondly, does anyone know when the detailed information about redundancies will be coming out? Could have sworn it said in the IBN that it would be out today..... Anyone?

[Pottermus]

It will be released on the 15 of Feb 2011! Doh!!!!:D
I think they must be adding a few 0's to what we'll get NOT!:\

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Switch on Lofty,

Can't disagree with your sentiment, but it is based on acceptance of the principles of the review.

I personally understand the (Big) problem as well as the next guy, but axing key future mil pilots is folly, and only pennies saved. This is a cynical book balancing act, short and simple. No Plan, No Thought, No Idea of Real Impacts.

I go back to my earlier comment: History will record this as just cost cutting, with political backing.

Advo

[Grimweasel]

letsgoandfly

March 1st is when the fine details come out of which branches, numbers etc. There was a release on Feb 1 stating the rationale etc - a turgid 20 odd pages trying to justify the slicing to come..not a great day for the RAF

[Mr C Hinecap]

but axing key future mil pilots is folly, and only pennies saved

Why is it folly? If there are no places for them, you can't have them sloshing about in a bucket. We can't keep people without a role. It is crappy to have to do this, but I cannot see any other way. The training takes a very long time, so some in the training system, as well as others (that will come in April) have to go. The rest of the RAF is also getting whammed - those SNCOs who were on continuance got 6 months notice - a different crappy, but just as crappy for them.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

one concern i have is how this recent cut in trainees will affect future decisions on base closures.

beeb piece mentioned a figure of 35% of trainee pilots to go (they didn't say where that figure came from) plus a large number of civilian support staff to go too.

seems nothing is safe.


(and was that Lucan in local??);)

[Exnomad]

Let us hope that an equivalent number of Air Commodores and Group Captains will also go, plus some MOD staff

[NothingMuch]

All Pilots who are cut will be offered re-branching, however spaces are limited and there will be a fair hold before Phase 2 training can begin.

Pilots will know who's binned and who's not within 3-4 weeks.

[Runaway Gun]

I don't understand this.

They will all be offered re-branching, but they won't all get it?

[AngryDave]

Those of us not selected for further training will be sent to OASC but with 170 being culled only a few will get a re-branch. The rest = compulsory redundancy.

[NothingMuch]

It's quite simple really, most ground branches are either closed or are up to date in terms of recruitment, so there aren't many jobs going. They will try their best but cannot guarantee everyone a re-branch, and those that are successful will no doubt have to wait.

[MrFlibble]

Everyone on flying training is currently under the axe for redundancy in Tranche 1.
The whole training system has been split into 4 distinct groups:

Group 1: Those between start of IOT and intermediate handling on EFT,
Group 2: Those on EFT (past IHT),
Group 3: Those between finishing EFT and intermediate point on Phase 3 trg,
Group 4: Those after intermediate point on Phase 3 trg.


Group 1 will be sorted by studes retaking OASC aptitude tests - these scores, combined only with their end-of-IOT report, will make up the list. Top 70% of this list will carry on in the training system as normal, the other 30% will be sent to OASC.

Group 2 and 3 will be sorted on performance to date based on existing sortie reports - again, top 70% will stay, 30% will go to OASC.
Also, in Group 3 those who are waiting for streaming, will be streamed in one job lot.

Group 4 will be sorted similar to 2 and 3 and face a super-super-streaming; either staying on in training or not depending on sortie reports to date.
In this group though, only the top 65% will stay.

Everyone going to OASC will be fighting for a miniscule number of ground trades - for the majority of these though, it'll be redundancy.

[Father Jack Hackett]

What about offering sabbaticals to the guys who've got / nearly got their wings? This would produce a de facto, airline-style holding pool. You freeze their commissions at the point they start their hiatus so you don't lose out on long-term return of service. At least it would give the poor sods an option to resurrect a military flying career and UK PLC gets a return on all those millions already spent.

[teeteringhead]

Father Jack I see where you're coming from, but it won't happen. :( When recruiting returns, we will be looking for smaller numbers, and can be even pickier. Wannabees will still outnumber places by shedloads-fold, and they will be just as good and two years younger.

Meanwhile, on return to OASC the lucky (sic) ones with high OQs/PQs/B&Qs or whatever it is now will re-branch, those who have merely (sic) got high pilot aptitude will go. :(:(

I recall some flying studes a few years ago (when we weren't flush for pilots by any means) having their paperwork annotated "pilot only, will not be offered another officer branch if failed pilot training" or words to that effect.

Ex MoD numquam aliquid novi!

The system cannot afford a heart ......:( but it hasn't even got a head ... only a calculator. :ugh:

[Father Jack Hackett]

TH,

I get what you're saying about being picky but the younger, possibly more talented pilot recruits of the future will still require "millions of pounds" of training to get to the level of many of the people we are about to lose. Yes, we may end up with a slightly higher level of talent at the frontline, but we will still be paying out to train new pilots when we could be retaining people who have achieved course-standard and been awarded wings. I thought the priority was saving money and the suggested 100s of millions that we've already spent and are about to write-off is hardly chicken feed.

If I was one of the unfortunates and you offered me the option of a 1 to 2 year sabbatical, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Holding pools seem to work very well for the airlines during a downturn, maybe this is one of those occasions where the RAF actually has something worth learning from commercial best-practice.

[Pontius Navigator]

FJH, one possibility that I think I floated earlier and needs to be addressed by both recruiters and redundees is reapplication.

There would be nothing to stop Bloggs leaving by the front door and going to the AFCO and reapplying in due course. He/She would be a known quantity and might even be accepted back in to training as a re-entrant with a shortened IOT.

This enforced sabatical might even have the additional benefit of giving them more life skills, an enforced rest from the pressure cooker of flying training, and the potential to ease back in more easily than your newer applicant.

Many of course will fall out of time, these will be your graduate studes that did not enter training immediately after university and perhaps took as gap year as well. It will favour the 2-A-level applicant who will naturally be well within the age range.

How will they handle the inevitable re-application?

[Vortex what...ouch!]

You assume that people want to serve. But with a return of service like this, when the effort put in by people is huge, it must put off future recruits.

The harsh realities of finances is one thing, but blowing out the very reason you exist seems crazy to me. It's like the 1930s all over again.

[brit bus driver]

It will favour the 2-A-level applicant who will naturally be well within the age range.

Oi! I resembled that remark once!!

And a very enjoyable 19 years I had too.....but the grass is definitely not as sandy out here!

Does seem a little short-sighted, mind, and I wonder what will happen once the airlines start recruiting again in earnest. I understand BA may be after DEPs (potentially LH) again in the not-too-distant.....

[BEagle]

How will they handle the inevitable re-application?

Surely only the very brave, or foolhardy, would ever consider re-applying for an organisation which has degenerated into such a totally atrophied state.....

What an utterly disgraceful state of affairs......

[An Teallach]

Have just rxd an email from the RAF press office saying
[snip]
quickly followed by another apologising for a typo
[snip]
airsound

A case of too many cooks, perchance?

A Battallion of Spinners (http://order-order.com/2011/02/15/a-battallion-of-spinners/)

[spekesoftly]

Beeb 1 'Look North' (Yorks) should be doing a piece ......

I missed the 18:30 report, but have just watched the BBC Yorkshire regional news at 22:30. It mentioned that 30 trainee pilots at RAF Linton-On-Ouse have been told that their jobs are under threat, and that about 1 in 3 could go.

[MrFlibble]

BBC iPlayer - Look North (Yorkshire): 15/02/2011 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ylrml/Look_North_(Yorkshire)_15_02_2011/)
Between 05:40 - 08:45 mins.

[dope05]

Hum, if I was running an airline a load of exceptionally qualified, disciplined military pilots would be of great interest.

[RetiredSHRigger]

The BBC news on line are now saying a total of 175 or 43% of Trainee Pilots to be axed and no new Pilot Intake until after fiscal year 2011/2012. So it appears even worse than expected! The lunatics are running the asylum :mad:

[wiggy]

if I was running an airline a load of exceptionally qualified, disciplined military pilots would be of great interest.

Maybe you would be be but sadly unless their exceptional qualifications include an ATPL/CPL (and perhaps a type rating) they not of interest to any airline at the moment. If these ladies and gents want employment in the civil world they need to be contacting the various FTOs PDQ.

[dope05]

yes very short sighted, millions spent on intensive training, but I know who I would rather be sat behind sipping a G&T when SLF, rather than some clown who flicks the wrong switches.

[wiggy]

dope05

I know exactly what you mean, and I agree with your sentiments. However I'm not an accountant and whats more I don't think like one :D

[dope05]

Neither am I, crying shame, Nimrods gone, Harriers gone, Tornado force cut, HMG diplomacy better be spot on from now on. maybe we could contribute to re-arm XH558

[Really annoyed]

but I know who I would rather be sat behind sipping a G&T when SLF, rather than some clown who flicks the wrong switches.
As opposed to these highly trained clowns who forgot to flick one really important switch prior to landing.

http://www.pixstel.com/xv304-wheels-up-landing_pics68-6887.jpg

I fear you may spilled some of your G&T.

[dope05]

na! from the look of that only the peanuts would have ended on the floor. Mods are going to put us back on topic any second now

[MSF]

While it is sad to see these go , the youngest fleet is 22 years old.
The trainees have been binned because they are surplus, but is upsetting you guys only because they are officers, NCA will barely get a look in and as for enlisted - forget it.
So it's tears in the G&T and move on.
In 4 or 5 years time , recruitment may pick up and it's ego trips all round again!

[Really annoyed]

Quite right MSF there has been some absolute clap trap written in this thread. Lots of wailing and waiving of arms and getting on that outrage bus..........But as you say, what about the 300+ NCA and WSO's and the 4000+ ground crew who are about to get the sack?

[dope05]

Er, No ! I was at DIOT Cranwell but got chopped owing to thinking a bit too much out of the box and treating all members of the RAF as equals whatever rank, didnt go down too well with the DS

[blackwithwhitestripe]

I believe the worst thing is not the numbers or the reasoning but the way the RAF longs for ethos and core values and to be RAF through and through and engender a family spirit. Then they look to get rid like civvies pretty poor for that reason alone in my opinion

[newt]

What a load of tosh! Typical BBC Look North amateur reporting! I suspect Linton will close and so will other RAF training establishments across the UK. Consolidation of pilot training should be a priority and I believe might all be done at one base. Cranwell and its satelites must surely top the bill?

Difficult decisions will have to be made. These may include the loss of CFS,the Red Arrows and other support activities. RAF ambition must establish and maintain the maximum number of frontline pilots, trained in-house, to the highest standards expected and achieved since 1945.

This will require forward thinking and imagination but should be regarded as essential if the RAF is to maintain operational expertise.

[switch_on_lofty]

What a great suggestion!
Aircraft need a lot of space, not just to land on but airspace. Are you really suggesting that all training activities should be conducted in the same already fairly congested airspace over some of the flattest, dull terrain in the country?
The reason that training bases are spread out is because they and their dedicated user areas, danger areas, areas of intense aerial activity and relief landing grounds are needed for, yes training.
Getting rid of CFS may reduce the chances of getting those "best pilots since 1945". Do you have any experience of military flying training Newt?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Do you have any experience of military flying training Newt?
I await the answer with bated breath:ok:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Then they look to get rid like civvies pretty poor for that reason alone in my opinion

If you had to cut several hundred pilots from across the entire RAF, how would you do it?

[Wiley]

Anyone here read Lord Tedder's autobiography ('With Prejudice')? He writes of a very similar crisis during the Great Depression, where the money men, short of cash, attempted to farm out all RAF training to civil flying training establishments. (The more things change, the more they stay the same.) I can't remember the details, but at great risk to his career, Tedder pulled what could only be called a swiftie in stopping this plan from going ahead.

Had the money men had their way, the RAF would have been woefully short of a training establishment to oversee the massive expansion of WW2.

I'm quite a long way removed from the coal face, especially in the UK, but from afar, it would seem to me that most of the ire so many must be quite rightfully feeling over these swingeing cuts must surely be placed squarely at the door of one Tony Blair and those of his government.

I just hope David Cameron doesn't throw all the proverbial babies out with the bath water. My sincere commisserations to to the many adversely affected.

[c130jbloke]

*
Quite right MSF there has been some absolute clap trap written in this thread. Lots of wailing and waiving of arms and getting on that outrage bus..........But as you say, what about the 300+ NCA and WSO's and the 4000+ ground crew who are about to get the sack?


How very true.

[cazatou]

newt

I am absolutely fascinated by your logic!!

If, as you suggest, the RAF closes CFS - would you please enlighten us as to who is going to train the QFI's you foresee doing the "In House" training?

[Pontius Navigator]

Newt is probably well qualified to comment. He is one of the few that post here with a comprehensive profile.

While at first glance most people have dismissed his suggestion, step back. If the pilot requirement has just been cut by near half it is unlikely to ramp up to its previous level.

You never know, he may well have forecast the future, and don't for one moment think that what he suggested is unthinkable.

[newt]

Well SOL your points about airspace etc are valid but with the requirement now to train only a handful every year, I cannot see any problems. Satellite stations and detachments to other military/civilian establishments have always been an option for specific training requirements.

My point is that now seems to be the time to consolidate and construct a training system that provides the RAF with a team of highly trained professional pilots in very small numbers!

Oh, I nearly forgot SOL! If you had taken the time to look at my profile you would have seen that I do have a good deal of experience with military training! The rest is:mad:

[airborne_artist]

Satellite stations and detachments to other military/civilian establishments have always been an option for specific training requirements.

In the 70s and 80s Dark Blue EFT was based at Leeming, but we would bus/fly to Topcliffe each day to stay out of the way of the grown-ups. Similarly at Culdrose the kiddies would transit to Predannack for circuits etc.

[Red Line Entry]

The sentiments expressed in this thread explain very clearly why the RAF (indeed Defence) is in the mess that it is.

If ever there was a clear need to make redundancies, then this is it. The training system is currently set up to produce far too many pilots for the number of cockpits (and other posts) that will be available. If we keep the flow going, then the ONLY way the total numbers of pilots in the RAF could be balanced would be to increase even further the number of trained and experienced pilots that will have to be selected for redundancy. This would be far more expensive, massively increase dilution on sqns, and potentially lead to compulsary redundancy for people who have given years of loyal service. Is that what you would prefer? And while it is crap to have to do so, at least the proposed method to achieve the cuts in studes (as explained by MrFlibble) seems a fair one.

More fundamentally though, the constant whining about accountants and bean-counters shows why we in the Services are babes in the wood in the modern world. It IS all about the money AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN! It is specifically because our 4-stars have failed over the last 10 years to grasp the nettle of the unaffordability of our plans that we have ended up in this crisis. It was not unforseen, it was not primarily caused by Labour's financial mismanagement (check out the fairly even profile of the Defence Vote from 1997-2009 if you don't believe me) and it was bloody obvious for years, but no-one was prepared to stick their head above the parapet and address the issue. Oh, this bliss of having 'war-fighters' at the top...

[bandoe]

Really sorry to hear about this and I feel for you chaps who are just short of gaining what you have earned.

I agree with MSF – this does need to be put in perspective by us, and by the media. Whilst very say, these trainee pilots are probably amongst the most employable of all those to be made redundant. They are predominantly young, clearly capable and many of them will have the ability to engage back up of parents of middle incomes. Their University qualifications still hold currency and they are marketable in the workplace.

The real tragedy is with the (proverbial) 47 year old bloke who just lost his job, 3 kids, lives on a council estate, earns 16K a year as a hard grafting bin man because he wasn’t born with the opportunities/luck that many of us were. He is likely to be turned over for every future job owing to age, commitments, qualifications etc etc. This bloke has dreams and aspirations too and is far more worthy of sympathy so I think we need to put our comments more into perspective. For every one pilot there will be hundreds like him whose families will be almost written off permanently by this recession.

Advice for those trainee pilots made redundant? Try to stay positive. Be careful how you approach your RAF time on your CV and in interview. If you are going for a job in, say, finance and have a finance degree then putting ‘I was an RAF pilot’ at the top of your achievements and making it out as though it was your only dream and that you are brokenhearted will only put the employer off. Frame the RAF as a period in your life/amibition that did not work out – but not your entire life coming to an end. Talk about how IOT skills and flying training skills show you are capable to be in finance. Be proud of the RAF, but make sure they know it is behind you and a part of your development as an employee rather than a great dream snatched from you. Your answer to the interview question ‘you must have been gutted’ should be something like ‘yes but I am excited about this opportunity now’ etc etc. From dark shadow to new horizon! Use it as an example of coping with challanges at interviews. 'I went out, got work experience, sought careers advice, altered my horizons' etc etc.

You are entering a civilian market place (if you are not going for an airline job) where most HR people probably will not care about your experience or might see it as a threat/risk ‘you top gun god you!’. You need to manage this situation. Try to circumvent HR departments if possible. They would rather see 4 weeks work experience in a relevant job than two years as an RAF Officer/Pilot. They would also rather chat all day and slack off than actually properly read CVs. If they do read your CV they might see you as over qualified or not truly interested in the job owing to their narrow mindedness and well-known lack of brain power. Contact Directors directly where possible and get yourself on Linkedin. Get your network going now. If you struggle then get work experience! Contact a Director in your desired line of work, employ the sympathy card and say you will work for free for a few weeks – make coffee, do the copying if necessary. Proove yourself. The worst that can happen is that you get a reference from a civvy employer showing that you can adapt to the civilian workplace.

Chin up! Good luck!

[MrPVRd]

What's the legal status on this? From my ab-initio days as a FC years ago, I recall that you could certainly be chopped for training related reasons.

This appears to be redundancy. If so, there are procedures and regulations, including collective consultation. Solutions such as reduction in working hours (etc) need to be explored as part of this process. Will employment lawyers be queuing up and rubbing their hands in glee? Will this cost more than it saves? Why should baby pilots (or anyone else) be expected to maintain transparently-hypocritical 'OQs' until the moment they walk (are kicked) out the door?

As I've said, I think it's a colossal misjudgement and demonstrates the approach to 'tough decisions' - cut where the cuts always fall, time and time again. Those who say this is the only answer should be questioning the question! Meanwhile, bankers are troughing millions, MPs are trying to claw back the expenses gravy train, money is being urinated away in a million different ways, Trident is sitting big fat and useless somewhere top secret...business as usual in the UK!

[Geehovah]

The sad thing is that we'll be scratching around for pilots again in a few years time. Why do I say that? Because every "redundancy" scheme since 1974 has been the same. The trough is always lower than expected by normally, quite a margin. Far be it for me to disagree with Sir Michael but we have always had holding posts and now's no difference. Just manage the surplus and wait for the airlines to make space in the middle mamnagement. Oh I forgot, salaries are now the short term expense driving policy.

Never throw away the seed corn thats my motto.

[cazatou]

When Red Line Entry says "its all about money" that is, in my opinion, not quite correct - but the financial aspect most certainly is a major factor.

Nobody has alluded to the fact that last year was the 65th anniversary of the end of WW2 when millions of Service Personnel returned home after years away.

The "happy reunions" with loved ones resulted in a massive baby boom in 1946/7 and the millions of male babies who have survived to celebrate their 65th Birthday will retire this year and next in receipt of the State Old Age Pension. At the same time, of course, National Insurance contributions will suffer a major decline and there will be an increasing burden on Local Government Social Services and the NHS.

The Coalition may have secured a narrow majority but they also inherited a "poisoned chalice".

[3 bladed beast]

4 years ago, when working as an EFT QFI, we were pushing through far too many students, as course numbers were doubled and extra courses added.

I raised the question of " where exactly are all these pilots going to go given the fleets that are retiring and delays in future ones??" of course, no answer was given...

The hierarchy and system have let these people down by not addressing inherent problems. The RAF preaches doctrine, ethos, core values to these people, and yet it is so hypocritical given that we are just numbers.

Good luck to all, there is life out there in civvy world!

[BEagle]

Many years ago, when trying to fit VC10 courses into the programme, I asked why the heck were we even contemplating course which had less than full trainee crews. The workload on the staff was almost the same when training a full crew as it was when training only 2 pilots, no engineers and no navigators because the engineer and navigator instructors would be required to operate, so that the student pilots wouldn't have to cope with possible non-SOP or substandard operation from 'guests'. But 'part crew' courses were such a waste of money.

"We've always done it that way"

Even the boss (not the most popular Sqn Cdr we ever had) asked 'them' why we didn't just arrange courses when there was a need, rather than on some dubious calendar basis. He was encouraged not to ask again.....:\

You'd have thought in these days of IT that someone could do some accurate predictions for training course requirements.

[parabellum]

Harsh though it may sound, anyone leaving the RAF who hasn't completed the course of training and got his/her wings will be treated by the airlines exactly like any other trainee who hasn't got their licence yet, "Nice to hear from you, contact us again when you have a CPL and Instrument rating". Some of the bigger and better organisations may then take them in and give them a type rating, several organisations may offer them a type rating course that they then have to pay for.

Hopefully the redundancy and resettlement package will help those that want to continue flying get their CPL/IR quite quickly, those with multi crew training and those with rotary wing training are likely to be the first to be employed as their experience is the most relevant to a civvy operation.

Let's hope that the CAA evaluate each application and make some allowances for the training hours flown in the military rather than make them go the full, non-approved course' route, let's also hope there are some jobs out there.

[airborne_artist]

the redundancy and resettlement package

What terms have the choppees been given? Given that most won't even have a PPL, the cost of a fATPL will be about three years pay for the grads, more for those without degrees. I can't see the RAF handing out anything like that amount.

[Avionker]

MrPVR'd

Many years ago, well 27 anyway, when I joined the RAF I signed a contract. I seem to recall the wording went along the lines of:-

"I agree to serve for a period of 12 years plus 6 years in the reserve or until Her Majesty no longer requires my services."

If I do indeed remember that correctly then it appears that members of the armed forces sign a contract agreeing that at any time their military service can be terminated, or indeed extended, with or without their agreement.

As for exploring other avenues as you mentioned, reduction of hours etc, this is only of any benefit to the employer if the employee is paid by the hour.

If as in the forces they are paid by the day how do you propose to save money?

[teeteringhead]

I cannot see any problems. I can't comment on FW newt,but co-location certainly wouldn't work for rotary.

Not only is it the (pretty much) exclusive use of LFA9, it's the "Fields & Clearings" of which scores are used in DHFS training. Helo pilots who can only land at airfields aren't much use, and MoD doesn't own many fields, holes in woods,or sides of hills! Many of the local natives are friendly, and (in exchange for a peppercorn rent and an annual "lunch") allow the irreplaceable use of their land.

(impressive CV newt)

[Wrathmonk]

the redundancy and resettlement package

Judging by the posts on how the line is going to be drawn in the sand as to who stays and who goes (i.e. based on IOT and/or flying reports - with no one actually knowing where the goalposts have moved to) I fear those discharged may fall under the phrase 'Services no longer required - failed to meet the required standard' (or whatever the PC phrase is these days) and will receive next to nothing (or indeed nothing):sad:. As far as I can recall until you are CR / 6 months into your first tour you are still effectively under training and there are no "contractual" binds for either side so you can still VW or be SNLR'd. As with all things in the RAF the cheapest option may be the easiest but it is not always the best.

Good luck to those this effects. For those who take a branch change keep plugging away with your requests for a rebranch once the pipeline reopens. The last time there was a pilot shortage (and it is only a matter of time for the next one) they were taking navigators in their early to mid 30s back through the pilot training system :\

[AngryDave]

All flying training studes are now in the 'Redundancy Field'. Those who are unsuccessful for a re-branch at OASC (pretty much all) get compulsory redundancy.

Out of service date will be Sep 2012, so another 18 months in a blue suit although there is no plan what to do with those affected for those 18 months. Just enough time to wait and see people complete the course you've been choped off. If you want out earlier, VW is an option but there is no incentive to do that.

[switch_on_lofty]

Newt: I see from your profile that you do indeed have *some* experience of flying training!
I presume that you don't include OCU/Fs in the training/relocation programme?
A reduction in training numbers could be the chance to consolidate training bases, but this needs to be done in slow-time, to avoid messing up the system even more and costing more money in the long run.
Perhaps some consolidation could be achieved in FW, after all we had JEFTS (tri-service) for a while before the RAF moved out in order to justify keeping UASs at dispersed airbases that are little-used for anything else. I know that UASs are very popular and are considered to give good value etc by most on here.
Also can't agree more with teetering head re: RW, and when a base is in the correct location for role, why move it to then have to go back on detachment?
Not everyone gets to whizz around at high-subsonic speeds to and from training areas!

[haltonapp]

If you know that you are going to be fired, look for a job, and if you find one, leave! Any apparent monies lost will be recovered later. For sure in any company, especially in an airline, position on the seniority list is everything! Last in first out!!

[Winchweight]

Just a rumour, but I have heard of early release from Service with immediate lump sum but being offered in return for pension delayed until 65! As I say it is a rumour, but has anyone heard this?:confused:

[MrPVRd]

If it's redundancy, could be a can of worms. Crown immunity is a thing of the past. Ab initios expect to be chopped if they fail to reach the standard, or to VW if it isn't for them. That is what is expected.

Mixing this with redundancy to a specific pool of employees in training could be an utter fiasco that will line the pockets of employment lawyers and cost more than it saves.

I PVRd in 2004 and am now in civvy employment....most of us have acquainted ourselves with employment law and redundancy procedures. Employers need to follow procedures to the letter, particularly with such a large pool. Scenarios such as reduced hours, part-time working, sabbaticals etc should be considered.

After all, according to the MoD, Service personnel are 'public sector workers'. Redundancy procedures for the public sector are labyrinthine and usually entail generous separation packages. This will be an utter disaster!

If this is the only answer, the question needs to be questioned....

[The Old Fat One]

MrPVRd

Your points about redundancy are well made, but a little overstated.

Our redundancy laws are still way behind those of many other European countries and just as many employees are well-briefed, employers are even more so - especially in the public sector.

Throughout the public sector armies of administrators and employment specialists will be checking every aspect of their respective redundancy processes.

Of course one can never rule out a c*ck up, or some clever spark uncovering a rule that everybody else has missed, but I suspect this will be unlikely. And even if it does happen it will likely be dealt with quietly, out of court and on a one to one.

It will take an almighty oversight for anything to lead to a class action. (never say never though)

[bandoe]

Would be great if the unfortunate ones could get some form of (permanent!) time off whilst serving out their final 18 months. They could enrol on full-time MA/MSc courses (paid for by themselves probably!) for the September 2011 intake at Universities. They would have completed them by Sept 2012 if they take a 1 year course and might benefit job-market wise from it. Graduating just very shortly after their last pay packet.

[Grabbers]

What happened to the releasing of the above, scheduled for yesterday?

[MrPVRd]

Well-briefed on redundancy.....hah!

I've seen my employer go through multiple tranches and they were less than well-briefed. The only reason they haven't been at a tribunal (yet...and to my knowledge) is that those I have known who have spotted glitches in their own case, or indicated willingness to put up a fight have been 'looked after' in some way or another. Of course, many people just accept it and acquiesce, which is the calculated risk on the employer's part.

RAF is required legally, as an employer, to allow reasonable time off for retraining and jobhunting, for those being made redundant.

For those at risk...start consulting lawyers. Maybe collectively.

This could be very expensive.

[xenolith]

As far as the SH Force is concerned getting rid of so many trainee pilots has got to rate as on of the most scandalous management strategies ever implemented.

To keep the though put going, it makes more sense to make every Navigator (or whatever they call them now) on SH redundant and replace them with a pilot.

Can't help thinking that there is a bit of, high level, unconscionable protectionism at work here.

[BEagle]

So, Egypt, Iran, Tunisia and now Libya are now rather more than somewhat on the buffet.....

But hey, let's get rid of our air force and keep giving overseas aid to richer countries....:hmm:

[sooms]

Approximate Strength of the Indian Armed Forces according to wiki:

(This is not an Indian bashing thread)

Army: 1,325,000 Regular Personnel
In excess of 5000 MBT

Navy: 56,000 Regular personnel
250 aircraft
1 CVS
8 Destroyers
13 Frigates
15 Submarines
Approx 150 other vessels

Air Force: 170,000 Personnel
270 SU30MKI
60+ Mig 29
50 M2000
200 Mig 21
140 Jaguar
100+Mig 27

An independant nuclear deterrent and space programme.

Do we really need to be financing them? Maybe they could bung us a few quid?

[ACW599]

(in exchange for a peppercorn rent and an annual "lunch")

A whopping £10 per annum for the last 22 years in our case :)

But it's fun to watch Bloggs doing his thing and the annual "landowners' day" is delightful. In recent years they've arranged 30min in a Squirrel or Griffin as well, which everyone thoroughly enjoys. So it's not all one way by any means.

[Madbob]

Forget, a 1982 Falkland Islands repeat.

I wonder just what contingency plans exist should the PIRA go "active"? Just remind me of how many troops and SH assets were effectively based in the province, and for how long?

Q. Where would 20,000 boots on the ground, 20+ RW cabs (plus reserves of both on the mainland) to sustain ops for a long time come from?

A. Thin air? (No pun intended).:ugh::ugh:

Our polititians might get away with the UN stepping in to sort out a mess 8,000 miles away but I don't think the same would be true in NI.

MB

[c130jbloke]

I have read the whole of this thread, but was yesterday just about how many will go ?

If I have understood correctly, the individuals who have been selected are yet to be informed and will not be so for another 4-5 weeks ?

Is this so ?

Does this mean that every student pilot is working under the stress of not knowing whether they will make it or not ?

Is it just me, but this looks like one hell of a flight safety risk in addition to the utter HR disaster it already is.

[Winco]

Not a lot to say that hasn't already been said. To those affected, my sincerest condolences to you all. I can't begin to understand how you must feel other than you be devastated.

c130jbloke
What a bloody good point you make about flight safety. I hope that those responsible are taking note.

Just to add another dimension, can anyone seriously see a future any longer for the UAS's ?? I have never been on one, or had anything to do with them but i understand they are a great place to be. However, there must be some evil civil serpant sitting somewhere in Whitehall sharpening his knives, I'm certain.

Just an appalling situation all round.

To all those baby pilots - hang in there boys and girls, we all feel for you.

Winco

[vikingdriver]

C130J
Yes.
Names of those to be withdrawn from training for those in 'pool 4' that is those who have already started on a specific stream will be announced next friday.

As to worry and flight safety, it develops Capacity, apparently...

[c130jbloke]

That's nice to know :uhoh:

And how many times has "distraction" been mentioned in an accident report..

[sidewayspeak]

If you had to cut several hundred pilots from across the entire RAF, how would you do it?

The military is a young man's job. Therefore, I would not be looking to axe at the bottom. Rather, chop the old and bold. Create some promotion headroom and retain the enthusiastic youth, rather than the bitter and cynical on their FRI.

Offer an attractive pay-off and I'm sure they would not have to resort compulsary redundancies. Aur contraire; with an 18-month redundancy package as per the last round, the problem would be how to select from the sheer volume of numbers electing to go.

That we we have young and enthusiastic ab initios, a flow of promotion and a happy group of older bold guys and gals jumping for joy as they leave the disgusting employer that is the military.

Simples.

[Yozzer]

Pay me the pension that I have thus far taken for granted and add a modest bung* to keep me happy and I will happily go. To sack me and then 'award me' the reduced pension equal to me having PVR'd is more than a little unfair IMHO.
*A modest bung = the equivalent of a years take home pay. This is an entirely RAF Centric thread; are the Army and Navy not subject to the same assault?

Old and Bold and apparently in need of the chop. :{