First Heavy Jet Command

[Pin Head]

How important is getting your first jet command? With reasonable time in the LHS does that make applications to other airlines more easily? How far would you go for the above?

[411A]

How important is getting your first jet command? With reasonable time in the LHS does that make applications to other airlines more easily?
Very.

With a brand new rating in a B707, I went directly to the LHS, in a small ad-hoc charter aircarrier.
With 600 hours in said heavy jet, I joined a well known SE Asian airline, directly into the...LHS.
With 1500 hours in said heavy jet, I progressed directly into the LHS of a wide body jet, at another well known international airline.

Twenty three thousand command hours later in heavy jet transport aircraft...nearing retirement.

I would do nothing differently.

[Skippymon]

How about this one then 411A?

Currently FO on lightish jet - Embraer 145 (21 tons), trying to think whether I should stay for my command on the Embraer or move on to a 737/320 but wait a lot longer for my first command.

[411A]

How about this one then 411A?


My sincere advice....advance to command as soon as possibe, and stay in the LHS, no matter what.
I received this advice from a very senior Captain many years ago...and he was correct.

Best of luck to you!

[parabellum]

The LHS of anything is better than the RHS of everything!

[Skippymon]

Thanks for your opinions. It is what my gut says, but then the Embraer command would mean a less stable lifestyle, and slightly less money in the mid to long term.

While I can think of a few reasons to go for a first command over a bigger type, ie, proven track record, logging PIC, what other reasons are there for it being so important to get into the left hand seat?

[Checkboard]

The answer is skewed slightly by aspects of seniority. If you are to follow 411A's advice, you are limited to operators who will accept direct entry left hand seat - which are few and far between these days. Freighters and operators in crappy places to live are the usual suspects.

If you are contemplating a move into a strict-seniority carrier, and plan to stay there (like a flag carrier - BA etc) then the earlier you can get in the better off you will be.

If that carrier fails, though, you will be dumped on the market without command time. (Which is what happened to me.) That can be really annoying, as it severely limits your choices.

[GlueBall]

...seniority and equipment and lines bidding systems outside unionised USA, western European and Australian carriers are still a myth. :ooh:

[clunckdriver]

Have been LHS in most of the heavy iron,{with top notch outfits} my advice, go for the job,not the aircraft, in retirment now flying a little twin corporate aircraft, make more in a day than I used to make in a week and have more fun than should be legal, from where I sit they are all look about six feet long!

[Exaviator]

Achieving a command is everything in aviation and the sooner you reach it, the sooner your experience will count. It goes without saying that the heavier the metal, the better. It governs pay, status, and employment opportunities.

[3 Holer]

...seniority and equipment and lines bidding systems outside unionised USA, western European and Australian carriers are still a myth. You can scrub Australia off the list. Qantas is the only airline left in Oz that has a true seniority and bidding system and I fear that will be changing soon.

[Checkboard]

Thank god for that then. Seniority is the bane of the industry at the moment.

A universal removal of seniority would be the best thing for the career of pilot since the 80s.

[411A]

A universal removal of seniority would be the best thing for the career of pilot since the 80s.
Or...the 1970's, when hiring directly into the LHS was quite common, due to some overseas airlines rapid expansion, especially two...SQ and SV.

[arem]

<A universal removal of seniority would be the best thing for the career of pilot since the 80s.>

But only for the truly adept smoke puffers and a..e lickers

[HOWARDinOGDEN]

Some pilots when furloughed after years of exemplary service and thousands of hours in the RHS have failed to even be invited to interview with prospective new employers due to their lack of jet PIC time. In an unstable job market it's surprisingly easy to find yourself outside looking in whilst clutching a very respectable logbook which still unfortunately fails to pass muster.

As 411A states, the LHS can be the holy grail of employment - but the cost to QOL can be considerable. One size doesn't fit all and the compromises made will be to individual choice.

As for the seniority thing: pilots are much of a muchness, with a total absence of seniority how would promotions be assigned?

Perhaps those prepared to fly when ill, or in less than airworthy aircraft, or with slim fuel margins, or being willing to abrogate authority but retain ultimate responsibility would float to the top for management's nod of approval and clearance to further ascend the greasy pole of career ambition.

[savannah]

Mr 411A

Ha ha ha those were the days, I was a first officer on a B732 with 3,700hrs on type and 6000tt, my age 40 and my company seniors said im too young to command a jet :}. In Africa that is..... after saying im leaving they promoted me to LHS on Dash8-Q300
I wish i lived in your part of the world and in your days he he he
long live western world

[doubleu-anker]

Checkboard

"A universal removal of seniority would be the best thing for the career of pilot since the 80s."

Would you still be singing the same tune if you had been stuck in the RHS, with an outfit for say 8 years, then johnny come lately is employed as a DEC? No I bet you wouldn't. You would be the first to moan. Why should you jump the que when others have been waiting their turn for years?? Tell me please. I would be gone in an instant if they tried that stunt on with me.

Seniority is the only fair system in civil aviation. If others can think of a fairer system for all and to keep moral within the ranks, please let me know.

[411A]

Why should you jump the que when others have been waiting their turn for years?? Tell me please.

Two reasons.

1.
It is always less expensive to directly hire an experienced-on-type Captain than it is to upgrade a First Officer.
This has been proven time and again, and is not subject to dispute...like it or not (and I expect you don't:rolleyes:).
Airlines will generally (although not always) take the least expensive route, consistant with reasonable safety.

2.
In a rapidly expanding airline, there may well not be suitable First Officers to upgrade (experience-wise) so, direct entry Captains are hired to fill the void.

I would be gone in an instant if they tried that stunt on with me.


I don't expect the respective airline would care.
First Officers are a dime-a-dozen, and a new(ly) hired one is cheaper, anyway.

Now you have been told.:}

[Basil]

My advice would be:
Get a job with a major.
Take the first command available which no-one more senior wants: worst base, worst routes, least desirable equipment.

If not with a major then, as has been said, getting into the LHS is even more important.

Others, established in a major, may prefer the RHS on all the best stuff and wait up to 20 years for command - horses courses.

[doubleu-anker]

411a

You have told me nothing except a lot about yourself. I get the impression you don't give damn who's toes you stand on. Amongst other things, your skin must very thick. Sound like a bully to me. Do you beat up on women by any chance?

I've done my RHS time a long time ago, thank you very much.

[flash8]

Believe me, after years of reading 411a's posts I can assure you he has a skin thicker than a rhinoceros...

He is speaking it how it is. Don't like it... walk!

PS. Don't take things so personally... :)

[Exaviator]

How important is getting your first jet command? With reasonable time in the LHS does that make applications to other airlines more easily? How far would you go for the above?

Gentlemen, you can bicker about personalities until the cows come home, but getting back to the original question, the bottom line is that command time is what counts in this industry. And, the heavier and faster the metal the better.

When I was a just a young G.A. pilot flying light aircraft on charter and airwork ops the yardstick was to have a command on an aircraft over 12,500 lbs (i.e. DC-3). By the time I joined my first airline as a new F/O the yardstick had moved to command on a Turbo-Prop, (i.e F27) before long it became pure jet.

As aviation progresses the yardstick will keep moving, but the reality of command will stay the same.

In my own case I was fortunate in that the airline that I was flying for had some command opportunities that could be filled by pilots whilst still holding F/O rank, i.e Flying Doctor Service, or Twin Otters based in New Guinea.

It usually entailed giving up the coziness of your home base and the right seat of a B-727 or similar, but it meant command hours flown and logged in an airline structure. I opted for the Twin Otter, flying single pilot IFR on airline scheduled routes based in New Guinea.

This early command - I was 27 at the time - coupled with some other career decisions soon led a progression from larger Turbo-Props to heavy jets, but always as a captain.

So, getting back to the original question. How important is getting your first jet command ?

In my opinion, achieving a command in any major airline is an important step in a pilots career, and if it's on a heavy jet, and these days it probably will be, the bigger the better. Sometimes other sacrifices need to be made to achieve it, but if you are a career pilot these need to be made to achieve your goals.

[Continental-520]

Well, I believed the same: that command time is king.

I was a Fokker 50 F/O not long ago, and was given the opportunity to become either a F100 F/O, or a F50 Captain.

I chose F50 Captain. And I love the job a lot, but now it seems that if I wanted to go anywhere, I would need jet time!!! :hmm:

There are only a handful of operators that will see the merit in heavy turboprop command time over jet F/O time in this day and age.....

Agree?

[411A]

There are only a handful of operators that will see the merit in heavy turboprop command time over jet F/O time in this day and age.....


Could well be, however...I would not be one of them if I was hiring, for a jet position.
It has always been my thought that Captains have quite a few more 'street smarts' than a First Officer, and...I've seen it proven time and time again.
This is not to say, of course, that there are not some mighty fine First Officers available.

[Basil]

This is not to say, of course, that there are not some mighty fine First Officers available.
I flew with a recently ex RAF Herc captain whom some of the other captains found to be a little abrasive.
I, OTOH, thought: 'This guy is sharp, knows his stuff and may get me out of the dwang one day' and so it came to pass that a malevolent sim trainer wrote a vicious LOFT scenario and, whilst I was thinking "Fvck me!", lo, the erstwhile officer suggested a plan, nay, THE plan which we successfully executed before departing to the bar and rejoicing. :ok: