Can any of you atc guys help me out

[n.dave]

Hi there, I got 2 questions here which i hope you can help me out. I hope this is the right post section.

1. Do you need a MATZ pentration permission if you want to fly across the stub(s)?

2. Logbooks, I was informed by the flt school that you minus 10 minutes of you take-off time and plus 5 mins after your landing time for the flight times. Is this correct and legal? What if the CAA looks at your times and compare it with ATC controller one, surely there's going to be a difference!!

Many thanks

[Grabbers]

Hi,

Outside the ATZ there is no legal requirement to call ATC. Neither is there any legal requirement to comply with their requests if you do. Whether you choose to do so in the interests of airmanship is down to your own conscience and/or point of view.

No idea about your second point.

[anotherthing]

never flown as a civvy but those figures ring a bell. Also, this won't be the exact phrase as I have not studied avitation law for 10 years but an aircraft is deemed to be in flight 'from the moment it first moves under its own power with the intention of taking off' i.e. taxi times count.

[Spitoon]

Q1 - if you are flying a civil registered aircraft, as Grabbers says, it's the ATZ that matters and you can ignore the MATZ. Obviously it's not a good/sensible idea and I wouldn't reccommend you to do so. And don't forget, the stubs are there to protect the approach and climb out areas.

Q2 - When I learned to fly - many years ago - the school used 5 mins either side of t/o and ldg for the logbook. They said it was accepted by the CAA. I seem to recall that it was supposed to be the time added by the CAA to flights by military pilots who logged t/o to lndg when they converted to civil licences. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules except the law which talks about recording the times of flight (and the times that you acted in a specific capacity during a flight). And another thing has pointed out the legal definition for when a flight starts - and a flight ends when the aircraft first comes to a halt after landing or words to that effect. It's over 30 years since I studied air law but I don't think that one has changed - even though lots of other things have!

[n.dave]

thank you guys

[chevvron]

Crossing the stub without calling is probably the worst place you can do it from the point of view of the controlling ATC unit as this bit of the MATZ is established for aircraft just about to start the final part of descent on an instrument approach. If you really want to collect a Tornado or AWACS in your ear, then do so, but I wouldn't advise it. OK it is class G airspace and in VMC you'd probably be OK, but if you're just below cloud base, watch out.

[BEXIL160]

As Chevvron points out, any MATZ is Class G, so no "clearance " is required... but good airmanship would dictate that you actually make some attempt to communicate with the "controlling" authority. Don't go in the ATZ though without a positive clearance.

As for the logbook question, well the aeroplane is in flight from the time that it first moves under it's own power for the purpose of flying, until the time it comes to a complete rest after landing... or similar definition.

So, the percieved wisdom is generally that the times in your Pilots Log book are 5 minutes before actual takeoff and 5 mins after landing. (The a/c and engine log books record actual take off to touch down)

BEX

[BEXIL160]

Forgot to add, you can find lots and lots of PPL admin wisdom in the latest copy of the CAA's LASORS... google is your friend..;)

[n.dave]

Thanks ATC guys, I wasn't sure that you have to use matz pentration to cross the stubs. I always thought basic service would do. Oh well.

Yesterday, I did circuits at this airport (class D) and I was the only one at that time. After 30 minutes or so, another aircraft came in and join in the pattern. I was doing a standard pattern but this other guy was stretching the pattern massively. He was no.1 and I was no.2 at the time. The ATC didn't say a word about it. Normally a circuit takes around 6 minutes but he increase it to 10. It was my first time to come across this kind of thing!

I would like to know what is the correct procedure to do if it happens again in future?

Many thanks

[chevvron]

Just follow your normal circuit pattern. It's the Aerodrome controller's job to sequence traffic in the visual circuit not the pilots, so if he tells you to extend or orbit, just do it. With FISO however, it's your job to listen to the information passed and take appropriate action.

[Il Duce]

n.dave, it is possible to get "clearance" to cross the stub under a basic service - there may be no need at all to upgrade the type of service you're already receiving. There is the probability that, for coordination puposes, you are requested to maintain or fly not above a specific height whilst crossing the stub but even that can be done under basic service.