We're in the top 100!

[Corrona]

RAF Community - News (http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/news/index.cfm?storyid=CF7AB4F5-5056-A318-A8A9B1CAF62B4225)

That's good then...

[Mad_Mark]

Oh, yippee :rolleyes:

[Grabbers]

That leaves a sour taste in the mouth.:E

[MPN11]

First with the news, guys :(

ARRSE has been taking the pi55 out of this one for ages ...
RAF recognised as top lesbian, gay and bisexual employer (http://www.arrse.co.uk/royal-air-force/156049-raf-recognised-top-lesbian-gay-bisexual-employer.html)

[Chainkicker]

Smashing. I wonder how many manhours have been tied up in attaining this splendid recognition? :yuk:

Glad I banged out (of the mob, not the closet)!

Oh, and good to see that an AM, AVM, Gp Capt & Wg Cdr feel it necessary to comment on this. How about commenting on the butchering of allowances for your troops you effin blunties :mad::mad:

[woptb]

Where are you posting from,Jurassic Park?

[TBM-Legend]

ah the true decode of 'back seaters'....:}

[1771 DELETE]

A M Pulford must be really pleased, should get a gong for this move, also glad i have left that sort of crap behind. What a real shame that this is what is now important to the RAF.

[extpwron]

...and I thought an LGB was a type of munition not a mutation!

[NutLoose]

Lucky there is a Bi-sexual in that list, because by the time the Forces have been whittled down to nothing and as we are a politically correct country, there only would be a Gay, a Lesbian and a Bi-sexual left, and without the latter the social life would be pretty dreary for the other two as opposed to just the one... I suppose the Bi-sexual would be a Lib Dem voter, so he could play both sides of the field :p

[Dave Angel]

FFS, time to go :ugh:











(Has anybody seen my high heels?)

[Chainkicker]

the AM and AVM you are referring to are Pilots

With ascension up the greasy pole comes bluntness, no matter what branch you may be...:rolleyes:

[KeyPilot]

Times - and most especially social attitudes - have changed. Move on, chaps. This announcement isn't much to celebrate, but also isn't cause for the consternation of the posts above.

[thunderbird7]

Cor! Whats it all coming to? Glad I'm in Big Airways now! ;) None of that malarkey here...

[Father Jack Hackett]

While I agree that this all represents a diversion from the hugely challenging situation that has been forced on us by the student politicians, masquerading as a government, it does represent some positives. It's certainly a great factoid to throw back the next time some tree-hugging Guardianista starts banging on about how awful the military are.....

[Mad_Mark]

At least you know you can make mincing-meat of the enemy :ooh:

[sled dog]

In my day ( ok, a loooong time ago ) anyone found to be L / G / B was OUT. I`m not surprised the pongos and matelos are laughing . Must admit though, i once had two WRAF "ladies" showing me what they could do after a few brandy sours.......:E Happy days.

[Tankertrashnav]

I really cant believe this is 2011. As a long retired old fart I thought it would be my generation who were the homophobic dinosaurs, but apparently not. Frankly if I were still serving and sitting in the back seat of an FJ I wouldnt give a toss which way the front-seater swings, as long as he (or she) was a bloody good pilot, and that goes for any other trade in the service.

We should have come a long way since the days when talent was lost to the services because of the individual's sexuality, either because they feared to join up because of the ever-present risk of blackmail, or were chucked out if they were discovered. I'm really amazed at the out of date attitudes still on display here, with the exception of KeyPilot and a couple of others :(. Toleration of gays, lesbians and bisexuals is not political correctness but good manners and good sense.

Btw I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Lib-Dems, nor have I ever read the Guardian or hugged a tree!

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I wonder if we'll ever be "celebrating" the "all straight" Sqn? Mind you it'll have to be quick before we lose them..Sqns that is.

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't forget the T as well chaps and chapesses and in between.

[alisoncc]

Thank you Mr P. Navigator.

[An Teallach]

"RAF Recognised as to [sic] Lesbian, Gay & Bisexual Employer"

Someone's taken the P.

[alisoncc]

For those who get hot under the collar on these issues Rudyard Kipling had something to offer. I will quote from memory, so may not be word perfect.

Now it is not good for the Christians health to hassle the Aryan brown.
For the Christian riles and the Aryan smiles, and it weareth the Christian down.
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
And an epitaph drear "A fool lies here who tried to hassle the East".

A 21st century interpretation; those who get riled over the inconsequential are the ones who are most likely to get heart attacks and expire. Ask yourself is it really worth the increase in blood pressure?

[Scuttled]

I don't care. I really don't. Who does in this day and age?

It may take a little longer for some others to get used to it though. Give them a break, they aren't bad people, just typical of a largely decent part of the demographic who join up with good traditional values who want to do the right thing for our country. The playing rules have changed and in 15 years this won't be a conversation, but the rules changed mid game and so some will call foul.

I just personally don't care. I'm not attracted to every female servicewoman and use the the same premise to assume that I'm not irresistible to every gay geezer who joins up. And if I were, what a complement.

I don't care.

[WPH]

Well said 1771 Delete, whilst I'm pleased that the RAF has made progress on the subject of Equal Ops, I too believe that there are much, much more important issues that AMP should be commenting on that affect all of his 'employees'. How is it that we get a 3 yr pay-freeze, promotion is frozen, we lose trades, aircraft and people, income tax goes up, redundancy terms are slashed, pensions are changed, allowances are cut, MQ charges go up and AMP is completely silent?!:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

I see I managed to get under Really Annoyed skin.

I would not normally re-post a private message but this one is too good;

T? What are you on about you silly old fool? Are you one of these bigoted homophobes as well?:=

The T, as of course Alison recognised, is the missing letter from the acronym or abbreviation which should have been LGBT.

If anyone is a silly fool it isn't me, old yes but fool I don't think so.

[Biggus]

PN,

Since "Really Annoyed" gets really annoyed, and has called you a fool - perhaps he is actually, or should that be "really", Mr T from the A-team.... :O

[Mad_Mark]

It isn't the fact that there are gay, lesbian, bi and trans-gender members within the RAF that is pi$$ing people off it is that it is encouraged by some senior officers so that the RAF gets this sort of 'recognition' and they get themselves noticed for promotion!!

When personnel are struggling to get T&S to go on professional courses or attend important meetings but LGBT personnel are almost pushed into attending Gay Pride parades (as a duty in uniform) and conferences, with all the T&S possible thrown at them, it is the inequality of it all that angers the straight members of the RAF.

It is about time that the LGBT community behave in the way they want the rest of us to treat them... If they want to be treated like any other member of society, then they should start acting like it. WE don't have Straight Pride marches (if we did then I bet the RAF wouldn't allow personnel to attend on duty, let alone encourage them to!) or hold conferences/seminars about being straight, so why should the LGBT community want to whilst wanting to be treated the same as us at the same time?

I worked with known gay and lesbian members of the RAF and quite probably bi (no idea about trans-gender though) and had no problems with them at all, so the idea that because we dare to speak out about these 'dubious' honour means that we are homophobic is pure B-S. Yes there will be some homophobes amongst the PPRuNe community, after all we are just human like the rest of society and therefore have members from all walks of life and all political and social viewpoints, but not everyone posting here against the promotion of LGBT in the RAF are homophobic.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

MM, there is, or was, no reason for it not to be a SLGBT conference which would then have been open and enlightening to everyone. In fact I am sure that would have been true in practice if not publicised as such.

[Biggus]

But MMs point is that if it were a SLGBT conference then he doubts that S people, as opposed to LGBT, would have been positively encouraged by the RAF, given time off, and funded to hilt, to attend, along with subsequent publicity....and I think he would be right!!

MM is talking about the kind of backlash and unintended consequences that positive discrimination applied to small minority groups can often generate.

There is no reason why minorities of whatever kind cannot be equal with the mainstream, but when that balance tips over so that they recieve preferential treatment....?? All that happens is that a positive, as opposed to negative, bias is created - the problem has not gone away, but its nature has been changed. Resentments, tensions, etc, will still exist.

What was it George Orwell wrote, "...all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...."

[Old-Duffer]

........... that part of the problem is the uncompromising and aggressive tactics of Stonewall. That is the mantra: "if you're not for us, you must be against us".

It follows that if the RAF hierarchy does not make a song and dance about this and merely accepts that the LGBT 'label' is a non issue, Stonewall will take this to be damning with faint praise and try to show the service as being homophobic.

My message to the RAF top brass and to Stonewall is this:

IT'S NOT AN ISSUE - GET IT!!

As has been posted elsewhere, the armed forces have many complex issues affecting their personnel and these impact on the whole uniformed and civilian populations, not just a particularly group. Concentrate on the main issues - AMP and Air Sec.

Old Duffer

[Finningley Boy]

Its all a matter of how the likes of AMP perceive public atitudes. They are deeply concerned with getting on the right side of people whom one would not ordinarily associate with anything military, perhaps with a view to wider political/public sympathy. Someone said something earlier about maintaining good tradition and simply wishing to serve. Officially puffing one's chest up, so to speak, over something which truth be known the R.A.F. like the other services, have been compelled to accept, is doubtless, against the service chiefs' natural instincts I'm sure. Their more natural inclinations toward what kind image a traditional military force should have, will differ wildly from this kind of anything goes image, more in keeping with a Bar on the banks of the Achterburg Val.:suspect:

FB:)

[An Teallach]

Stonewall is an industry. They are elected by no-one and represent no-one. Their biggest activities are eating public funds, giving each other highly paid sinecures, 'finding' problems where there are none to justify their existence and, above all, taking credit for the advancement of the acceptance of gay people in the UK. In fact that acceptance has come about because there can hardly be an extended family left in the country without an openly gay member and/or there can't be many folk under the age of 60 without an openly gay friend.

Stonewall did some good work when it started out as a campaign group. When it became a self-justifying industry from about 1994 onwards its main aim was to preserve the ghetto as there was a real danger that sexual orientation discrimination law and practice would be subsumed into the ambit of the Equal Opportunities Commission and the legal apartheid for gay folk would disappear altogether (legally they would just be people, male and female). It was expensively assisted in this by the MoD.

It's therefore fitting that the MoD has signed up to its pish and even pays for it. I agree wholeheartedly with Old Duffer. I am in no doubt that the activities are wholly counter productive and play to a vocal (very small) minority of the gay folk currently in the Service, just as it's a very small minority of the gay folk in the country that go to pride parades. However, if the Service is stupid enough to give them warrants and rates to go to pissups at pride and 'conferences' then I don't blame them for filling their boots. I know some of you think it's unnatural, but the definition of being gay is that it comes natually to you if you are; WTF there is to confer about eludes me!

Stonewall certainly doesn't represent civvy gay folk or even a majority of them. Likewise, I imagine most Service gay folk would rather just be left to get on with their jobs and lives without all the box-ticking and PC BS Bingo.

[Exascot]

Sex change ex-fireman marries Jamaican Lesbian (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1356137/A-VERY-modern-wedding-Sex-swap-ex-fireman-weds-fourth-time-lesbian-Jamaican-30-years-younger.html)

So come on chaps, it could be worse. At least he/she/whatever wasn't ex- Royal Air Force.

[Scuttled]

Whatever floats your boat.

She really does just look like a bloke in a dress though. Am I allowed to say that? I mean, it's true, and the lgbt stuff doesn't bother me at all, it's just that........... She really, really looks like a bloke in a dress.

On a serious note, there was a RAF News front page spread a while ago with pictures of the first RAF gay wedding - or something like that. There's the positive discrimination that does annoy personnel. I heard many disparaging comments on the lines of,"My wedding didn't make the paper, why should theirs." etc. I was a bit more upset that the combat death(s) of one or more personnel was pushed off the front page by this momentous event, it seemed extremely disrespectful.

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, you are right of course. The one could not have been refused and the other would have taken some persuading. I admit when the first one happened I was tempted to apply just to see my boss's (a Lt Col) face.

He would have been as nice as pie to your face (maybe) but you should have heard what he said in confidence of those he didn't like. :)

[Pontius Navigator]

Digressing slightly, before the LGBT issue the other no-no was the pregnant WRAF - an oxymoron really.

Now there are many single parents often with no man in sight. What's the form? Can you ask who was the Dad or was it after that dining-in night?

[Tankertrashnav]

They are deeply concerned with getting on the right side of people whom one would not ordinarily associate with anything military,

What would you associate the following with then, Finningley Boy:

Alexander the Great?
Julius Caesar?
Richard the Lionheart?
Lawrence of Arabia?

Skill at interior decorating? A fondness for Judy Garland records? Good colour co-ordination?

Not military prowess of the highest level, then?

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, that was then, this is now.

[Old-Duffer]

TTN,

You forgot Lord Kitchener

but - IT'S NOT AN ISSUE

If you want a real issue to bang on about try: Closer military links with the French.

When I looked after Her Majesty's Jaguar fleet, the duplicitous French were trying to flog the Mirage, whilst supposedly supporting us selling the Jaguar. Nice people individually - not to be trusted collectively!!

O-D

[davejb]

BANG!

Dave

- I've just invented a new sport, based on Really Annoyed actually being Really Annoying (clever eh!) Anyway, you get 10 pts for shooting him every time he pops up to post further drivel...

...I'm winning ;)

[lurkposition]

Old duffer is right - it is not an issue.

I'm now retired and work for a public organisation. Our thought police have upgraded LGBT to LGBTvTxU.

The "U" is for Undecided. I guess not many of the Undecided turn up to a "U" pride march!

[Pontius Navigator]

Good evening Lurkeo :)

[Sven Sixtoo]

What's the vTx please?

[Canadian Break]

So, if we're in, does that mean we are out? If you get my drift.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Thought the editor of this derisory rag had actuallythough about editorial flair when he put underneath the article - another one entitled Rivet Crews.

Its still a terible waste of recycled paper though........

[cazatou]

Really annoyed

Those that lived in the past ensured that you have the freedom today to post your drivel.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ignorance is bliss and stops you being really annoyed.

CB, I don't?

[An Teallach]

CB

Only if you shake it all about.

[Training Risky]

All this tired old chat about dinosaurs...what's wrong with being a dinosaur?
I regularly let my inner 'lesbian' dinosaur alter ego out on a rampage - the Lickalottapus. :}

There you go really annoying - let's have a desperately liberal wail from you, denouncing my stab at humour as thoughtcrime.

Please tell me you're not in a position of power in this RAF...!:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

I wish I could be really annoyed by what Really Annoyed is really annoyed about but unless someone is really annoyed and quotes Really Annoyed's really annoyed response I shall not be really annoyed.

[ghostnav]

Forgetting the LGB issues, where does the RAF come in any league for "Employer"?

[Pontius Navigator]

Now you really are taking the p*ss.

[Canadian Break]

Ref post 51. Sorry PN old man, perhaps I was a bit too cryptic. I was simply meaning that if we (collectively) are in the list than have we (collectively) all "come out"?
(I believe that is the correct expression). So, not only is it no longer illegal, it may well become compulsory!:ok:

[baffman]

...So, not only is it no longer illegal, it may well become compulsory!:ok:Congratulations! I understand that is now officially the oldest joke in the world, and every bit as funny as when it was first 'cracked'. :ok:

Homosexuality has in fact been compulsory throughout the armed forces for some years already.

[baffman]

Forgetting the LGB issues, where does the RAF come in any league for "Employer"?That's the real question in my opinion.

[Winco]

My concern is NOT that this is as issue, of course it isn't, but it is the fact that we have go out and proclaim it to everyone and jump for joy, as though we have won some great battle or fight.

It is just sad and appalling quite frankly, that at a time of such severe cuts and many of our people in our Armed Forces losing their jobs, that the airships use this 'non issue' to make such public statements about how wonderful we are doing.

I just wonder why they haven't been so vocal in complaining about loss the of Harrier? MR4? the Compulsary redundancies and the continued lack of investment in our Forces?

Really Annoyed, I'm quite annoyed about the whole fiasco. What a shame we don't have any better news to proclaim.

Winco

[NutLoose]

I have always thought myself a bit of a Lesbian, I always had the urge to join in, mind you that just might be my willie talking........

Joking aside

Nothing against Gays, Bi, Lesbians, Blacks, Whites, Pinks, Yellows, Reds, Disabled, smokers, asian, african, muslim, christian, illegal......etc etc etc, I just wish the PC brigade would stop trying to ram them down my throat, so to speak..........

I sometimes feel in the minority because all of these different outlooks on life have various organisations funded by UK plc in most cases pushing their causes, have yet to find one for the XYZyr old white male hetrosexual party......

[hval]

@Really annoyed,

May I ask what is wrong with you? Have you had a bad year?

Why do we continue to be so abhorrent? You draw incorrect conclusions (purposefully, I suppose), you are incredibly abusive and you insult people. I don't know if it is your attempt at humour. Unfortunately, if it is, it isn't working.

This saddens me as you have posted useful messages. If you were to be as positive and helpful as I know you can be, it would be fantastic. Unfortunately people are starting to block you due to those postings that let you down. They miss out on the good things.

Thank you for reading this message.

Hval

[Training Risky]

it appears you are just one of life's losers.

So what do you fly...or what type are you about to made redundant from?:)

Ah well - very droll for a personal attack I suppose...good use of the search function, well done. :rolleyes:

I have moved on with my life since then and I don't get Really Really Annoyed by people's posts on pprune...unlike you! Are you going for a Stonewall community award this year? Are you on 28 Sqn per chance?

Good to see you are sticking to the message put out by your leader Nick Griffen MEP

I think it's Griffin by the way - don't you know how to cut and paste like all the other internet trolls?

[NutLoose]

Oh dear it looks like we have found the member for the PPRuNe wing of the BNP.


Far from it, what I was trying to get across is in the way the system works to put the case for all of these groups, one is often bombarded with Government or the relevant organisations literature and advertising that makes one feel in the minority.

[minigundiplomat]

Are you on 28 Sqn per chance?


Risky,

I think you may have hit the nail firmly on the head.

[Would explain why he is 'REALLY ANNOYED'].

[Tracey Island]

I had a mate once who was in love with school school bags.

Yup - he was bisatchel...

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Nothing against Gays, Bi, Lesbians, Blacks, Whites, Pinks, Yellows, Reds, Disabled, smokers, asian, african, muslim, christian, illegal......etc etc etc, I just wish the PC brigade would stop trying to ram them down my throat, so to speak..........



Well said Nutloose.