How to log hours?

[Orvilles dad]

I'm rated on the A320 series, have a JAA license and fly in Europe.

To date, I've been logging all my hours as P2.

However, as I read Lasors in preparation to unfreeze my ATPL, it seems that I should be logging those hours where I am PF as PIC/US - as I'm under supervision of the Captain. I further understand that hours when I am PNF continue to be logged as P2.

Is this correct? Lasors are quite difficult to follow at times, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[flyingcamel]

Yes indeed that man. Go to the top of the class!

Now, just don't get behind. I've only just caught mine up which was about 7 months out of date!

[Orvilles dad]

Camel - thanks for your help.

As for logbooks, I use a Mac (yes, I know, I fly Airbussi as well) and use a programme called LogTen Pro to keep my logbook.

The interesting thing is that it includes an iPhone app, so I can fill in the flight details into the iPhone on the flight deck when we finish for the day and it "syncs" automatically when I get within range of the laptop.

It remembers Captains, Aircraft registrations, routes, calculates local evening (so automatically calculates and logs night flights) etc. - it even calculates distance flown (straight line but better than nothing)! All I do is punch in off chocks and on chocks times and it does the rest.

So I'm always up to date - except then I have to go through and change all my PF P2 hours to PICUS hours.

[McBruce]

yea I done the same thing, didn't catch it until I was doing the ATPL application form, had to change every PF flight to PICUS, took a few hours of tedious clicking, especially since I didn't click save once I finished the first time around!!

I use Pilots Pal logbook software, highly recommended.

[parabellum]

Just curious -Let us suppose that either of you gentlemen above were to go for a job interview, when asked for your log book so that it can be checked etc. do you give them a complete print out or do you offer them a USB stick? I haven't been for an interview in more than twenty years, then it was hard copy only, hand written and verified etc. What does an interview panel expect now?

[Orvilles dad]

Parabellum - the point about these Logbook programmes is that they keep your hours under control so they always add up, you get the correct sub totals (if you put hours as PICUS when you are supposed to!) and they then print out your logbook pages neatly and in the same colour. My old logbooks, before I got LogTen, looked like a dogs breakfast with at least 12 different ink colours.

My logbook is a loose leaf arrangement and I print onto pre-punched blank paper. The programme offers choices of printing on various logbook styles - JAA, FAA, Australian, Canadian etc - just select your country/style, load paper and off she goes.

I think its worth the price just to be able to present a clean, neat and error free logbook if the CP ever asks to see it.

I think it would be slightly "avant garde" to deliver your logbook on a memory stick.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Just a point but when I were a lad you had to get your PICUS or P1 U/S entries counter signed by the Captain. Not sure if that's still the case but it's worth checking out.

[AI101]

As mentioned already its PICUS when PF And P2 when PNF unless if you are captain then all PIC time, Also any time which is PICUS needs to be signed by the Captain of that flight next to the entry into the log book. These are EU/Jar reqs I guess should be same for all other authorities. I know there are some guys who have had ATPL issued without have some signatures next to PICUS time but also know other guys who have been told to get the signatures from the captains they have flown with next to each entry in their log book (long hard process to get track down guys unless your still working with them).

You can always speak to the guys at CAA gatwick very helpful lot.

Good luck

[Orvilles dad]

Ai101 - I'm not sure you are correct about getting the Captain's signature.

I wondered how you could get a signature if you are using a Logbook programme as you wouldn't have an up to date paper copy of the Logbook with you. So to get signatures, youd have to print out the logbook later and then trail around trying to find over 100 Captains, in my case, - several of whom have left the Company.

So I checked again in Lasors and I found they may have changed their requirements slightly as they do now allow LogBook Programmes and all that implies regarding signature, so their rules re verification are now as follows:

G1.2 Notes

JAR-FCL 1.050 sets out the way in which flight time will be
credited for a licence.

The 1500 hours flying experience may comprise flight
time in any of the following capacities:

* As Co-Pilot performing under the supervision of the
PIC the functions and duties of a PICUS counted
in full. For licence issue, confirmation of such flight
time will be required. This can either take the form of
a letter from the operating company or certification
of each flight within the pilot’s logbook by the PIC.


So it seems they have introduced an alternative to individual signatures - I guess a trip to our Fleet Captain is in my future to get him to sign off - hell of a lot easier than chasing captains around!

OD

[AI101]

I stand corrected I guess it does now make sense with digital log books so guess it should be a straight forward process.

Good luck

[Orvilles dad]

Thanks everybody for helping me solve this problem - without your input, I never would have had the "intestinal fortitude" to slog through Lasors to find the relevant bits.

[hueyracer]

The question is: Who is your issuing CAA?

You have a JAA-licence and you´r flying in Europe-so it is a european?
Or are you american (because you mentioned LASORS)?

According to JAA-countries, you cannot go and decide to log PICUS-hours.
The company you are flying for need to have a PICUS-program you are participating; then you can log PICUS-hours (under special circumstances), and these hours need to be counter-signed (not primarily in your log book, but the company is obliged to produce a valid document with the Captains signature and store it for years)...