Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority

[Long John Silver]

"QANTAS pilots will hold crucial talks with airline management tomorrow aimed at shoring up job security, amid worries about the viability of international operations at the nation's major full-service carrier.
The Australian and International Pilots Association is prepared to limit annual pay rises to 2.5 per cent in return for jobs guarantees, but warns that it will apply to take protected industrial action if the company rejects the claim.

The results of the talks will be discussed at pilot meetings on Friday and Monday.

The union, in the new enterprise negotiations, is also seeking changes to the way pilots are promoted so that there is one seniority list throughout the Qantas Group's airlines. Pilots say this would lead to a clearer career path, starting at regional carrier QantasLink and progressing through Jetstar to end with A380 operations with Qantas mainline.

The union's moves come as Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce warned that the airline's full-service international arm was in trouble and vowed to pursue all options to arrest its decline.
Mr Joyce said yesterday he was determined to stop a long-term trend in which Qantas International's market share dropped from 42 per cent in 1977 to less than 20 per cent today."
- Steve Creedy, The Australian

[apache]

hook line and sinker!

AJ and GD's grand plan has finally worked.

[bubble.head]

It's not going to happen! One senority list? How long has it been since Eastern and Sunstate have been trying to merge theirs and what success do they have?

It smells funny how mainline now wants a joint senority in times when intenational part of mainline has gone clunckers. Just imagine that a 5years SO of mainline can outbid a 4 years 11months FO in sunstate who has served their time in the dash for a command spot.

Lets face it. International is a dying for mainline and those pilots need an escape route.

No threat exisits!

[Jack Ranga]

The Australian and International Pilots Association is prepared to limit annual pay rises to 2.5 per cent in return for jobs guarantees, but warns that it will apply to take protected industrial action if the company rejects the claim

(my bolding)

So you bad boys are actually going for a paycut? Don't know whether you fellas read the papers but the reserve bank are smashing us with interest rate rises trying to control inflation...........that is running at above 2.5%

Don't get me wrong, if a company genuinely needs to control its costs by reducing its wages bill in tough times, go for it :ok:

BUT DO YOU THINK JOYCE WILL BE TAKING A PAYCUT DURING THIS PERIOD?

[vigi-one]

Sorry Bubble head but you are wrong.

Eastern and Sunstate have been very close to a combined seniorority list for about two years but it is management that, after initially instigating the talks, have no said that there is no need for such a list, not the pilots. In fact i believe the both pilot groups are getting closer together particularly in relation to the debarcle thats called check, check, check and whats that other stuff we should do?

Secondly there are no 4 year 11 month FO's in at QLINK (turbo props) and there are no currently upgradable FO's for vacant command positions. Some recently appointed captains are having there first taste of twin (any twin) command so the idea of SO's able to switch may benefit the "GROUP" as a whole.

[Mr. Hat]

Of course QF International is suffering. Of course QF is suffering. This has been the grand plan all along:ok::ok:. ALL the money and growth has been poured into Jetstar. This is a 20 year plan people. QF will "loose" money until the paycuts and fear of retrenchments start flowing in. And its working a bloody treat. This is Alan Joyces finest moment, his most decorated performance. Bravo:D:D:D!

Isn't it strange that now Jetstar are gradually offering extra services over and above that of a true low cost carrier. Jetstar will be repainted in the Qantas colours 20 years after its inception mark my word. The only low cost part of Jetstar will be the employees conditions.

As for single seniority list? Well you might find the company will take that one given that V regional is about to kick off! Word is that within moments of V regional being announced various sausage sizzles took place around the country at Qlink bases.

Qlink employee: do not fall for ploys. If QF didn't want you in the first place they do not want you now. They'll just let a trickle go thru and the rest will be scratching their heads regarding the cubes. ACTION: If V regional offer a leg up into Virgin Australia crush Qlink and leave.

My pet hate is a company increasing conditions ONLY when a threat exists.

[C441]

It smells funny how mainline now wants a joint senority in times when intenational part of mainline has gone clunckers. Just imagine that a 5years SO of mainline can outbid a 4 years 11months FO in sunstate who has served their time in the dash for a command spot.

Jumping a bit far ahead there Bubble. Who's suggesting that may happen?

Back in the times of the TAA*/Qantas merge one primary plank of the integration agreement was that no-one in either organisation would be disadvantaged when it came to promotion in that part of the group. We effectively now have close to one seniority list.
(Introducing a new type is a whole different story.)

*Used TAA to distinguish the airline from the later Australian Airlines.

It may help also to examine careful media placement of information at the time of significant EBA negotiations and the goal of the Chief Executive and Chairman to drive the organisation to the Jetstar model.

And as for accepting a 2.5% p.a. deal if (and it's a big if) that secures the flying under the current agreement, it is a whole lot better than 3% and seeing the A330 and domestic flying become part of the Jetstar network, with or without their current crew, by 2015.

[PammyAnderson]

As already said, Joyce has got mainline where he wants.
If you can get a 2.5 rise than take it, as he wants a full B scale system. Aka Jetstar wages on mainline.
Surprised it hasn't happened already. Cathay are up to D or something. EK are nothing what they use to be, and the golden singapore contracts of the past are just that. In the past.
Joyce knows he could get jetstar crew tomorrow to fly the 380 for 150K no worries. They would be lining up.
Have no doubt he would shut down mainline international to rebrand and repaint qantas in years to come if thought that would help.

[The Professor]

“Can someone find me one industry or company where this is taking place during a period of growth?”

QF is a “group” of business’s that range from fixing planes to feeding passengers to frequent flyer programs. Some of these are doing very well, but the business that carts passengers on long haul flights is not doing very well at all. Its performance can hardly be described as “a period of growth”.

Labor costs and labor inefficiencies in long haul are a significant problem that the QF CEO must solve.

“so you bad boys are actually going for a paycut?”

The smartest thing a pilot group with individuals earning high 3 figure salaries can do is offer wage cuts and efficiency gains unless marginalization is what you are seeking.

“BUT DO YOU THINK JOYCE WILL BE TAKING A PAYCUT DURING THIS PERIOD?”

Only if the market/shareholders deem it necessary. But probably not, he is considered to be an effective CEO despite not winning the most popular kid in class award from pilots.

“Cathay are up to D or something.”

Not for HKG based crew. Check your information.

[KABOY]

Reality is that QF international will be the 380 and a handful of other aircraft that will drop into Singapore and feed JQ throughout Asia and Europe.

The B744 will wither on the vine and become a distant memory like the Classic. Commitment has been made on the B787, so unless Boeing completely shelve it QF will not see the B777, the aircraft does not fit into the new business model. The future is out of Singapore with 787/350 aircraft servicing smaller destinations in Europe/Asia.

Dont bother with seniority lists in Australia, it will be Singapore where the career opportunities will be.

[hotnhigh]

Hey bubble head what doesn't smell funny but more like "sh*T" is the fact you could have joined mainline say 2001, 2002, prior to the impulse takeover, prior to jetstar, prior to 320/330s in orange and still have no chance of a 330 fo spot.
I know others will say to mainline guys, "well go F&CK yourselves." but ultimately this is probably the last opportunity to stop the rot.
The group seniority list isn't a new concept. If you'd cared to consider its points you would have seen that the a 5th year so couldn't out bid the 4 year 11 month fo in sunstate for the position. Because all the current sunstate blokes would have had to have an opportunity to take the spot prior to anyone else, mainline, jetstar etc. Similarly the jetstar fo's have the first crack at command spots there when they came up at jetstar. The big benefit is to new joiners where the opprotunities open up alot more when positions become available within the group.
If you can suggeat another way of stopping the continual creating/ playing off group pilots amoungst each other, well spell it out. Don't waste time with the dribble of the uninformed here.
Perhaps Kaboy is right. Let's just forget about it and I let the missus and family know that singers is fine this time of year. Schooling and other costs I'm not so sure about.

[Keg]

I wonder if the term 'headline rate' means anything to most ppruners? Guessing by most of these comments, probably not.

[OneDotLow]

Keg :

I wonder if the term 'headline rate' means anything to most ppruners? Guessing by most of these comments, probably not.

x2. Have faith in the negotiating team. When they and the company come up with a negotiated position, we will then vote appropriately. Both sides of the table hold power in certain areas and the package will be viewed as a whole, just like the last one!

[blueloo]

They have already lost my vote. Based on the key Duty Travel Trade off. Unforgivable.

Whilst I recognise that there is a lot more to it than this - this should never ever be touched - and more to the point the items being traded for are easily worked around by the company.

[Keg]

ODL, I'm pretty comfortable with what I've seen so far and what I've heard that they're asking for. This 2.5% that ppruners are bagging is a headline rate. That will allow AJ to tell the markets that he got a good deal. Meanwhile, we've got exactly what we want.

Blueloo, I reckon the travel plan is excellent and provides great value for the overwhelming majority of crew. Given how rare P class is these days, and then how rarely crew pax on those a/c, and the ratifying of ST as part of the award, I reckon they've struck a great balance.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Having worked with your negotiation team I would recommend all members put full faith in the AIPA blokes. Their plan cuts a lot deeper than just a headline 2.5% increase. It will also go a long way to securing your future and the leakage of flying jobs to Asia.

See you on Friday at the Rowers.

[Mr. Hat]

Ooops my mistake. I read it as a pay cut! Stupid hat.

Rant withdrawn!

Knew I was short on sleep.

[SMOC]

“Cathay are up to D or something.”

Not for HKG based crew. Check your information.


International cadets (ie expats) lining up for Local conditions (No Housing etc)

HK Based, I'd call that D! They are currently going though training and will be kicked out of the hotel once checked to line.

'A' has been left to wither on the vine or become 'B', which over time will become C/D.:yuk:

The seniority list has been decimated they don't stick to seniority yet we still hold it as the Holy Grail :ugh:

We just put an end to out of seniority freighter commands to get back to a seniority based airline and now look http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/441872-air-hong-kong-situation.html#post6230675

[3 Holer]

Ah....integration. It's a beautiful thing.

I was involved in the integration of ASA, MMA and Airlines of NSW after Ansett took them over and in those days we had a very powerful AFAP overseeing the negotiations. None of the subsidiary Companies ever believed at the end of it........to quote Keg
Meanwhile, we've got exactly what we want.

and neither did Ansett mainline pilots. However, it happened because it was always going to happen and (according to AN Managemement)for survival of the collective group,had to happen. As it will with QF.

Good luck chaps !

[OneDotLow]

blueloo
*
They have already lost my vote. Based on the key Duty Travel Trade off. Unforgivable.

Seriously?! That's what it comes down to for you? You must pax A LOT! I respect your decision, though it will likely fall in the minority.

In reality, the J of today exceeds the P of yesteryear in many ways. This entitlement has increased in value over the years and now we can use it to get some career progression and job security. If it works (and the rest of the package is acceptable) then I think it is a good trade off.

[rmcdonal]

Just imagine that a 5years SO of mainline can outbid a 4 years 11months FO in sunstate who has served their time in the dash for a command spot.
A 5 Year SO would have to take a pay cut if they wanted to be a QLink Dash Captain.

[blueloo]

This entitlement has increased in value over the years and now we can use it to get some career progression and job security.


Fairly sure the trade is for improved staff travel benefits and confirmed tickets for commuters (amongst other benefits), not "P class" vs career progression on its own.

Certainly career progression is part of the EBA and as part of the whole EBA it does need to be considered.

However...... like the P class trade off....career progression (and the improved staff travel) CANNOT be written and set in stone. So - as we seem to do - we trade off a benefit - hoping that in good faith the company will uphold its end of the deal, and surprise surprise (Well Not really.. just to a few gullible suckers) we lose the benefit and also what we have traded it in for.

Usually its just WIN WIN for the company and execs.

[Angle of Attack]

confirmed tickets for commuters

Tell him he is dreaming!

[Iron Bar]

GUYS!

This article is based on information that is fictitious, imaginary, unreal and not genuine!!!! Otherwise known as BULL****! The source is not credible in this instance and is probably pushing another agenda. . . . . . . .

There will be much more misinformation to come. Stay frosty :ok:

[Keg]

Stay frosty :ok:

Awesome mini series! Just wish I could find the ebook.

[The Professor]

"HK Based, I'd call that D"

You can call it a bushell of spuds if you like.

Foreign pilots employed direct entry into CX are STILL on B scale and there is no plan to alter this.

Argument over.

[Mr. Hat]

If you have a spare minute to kill this makes for an interesting read (From Fragrant Harbour Wannabees forum):

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour-wannabes/430529-why-i-knocked-back-cathay.html


Why I knocked back Cathay

Over the last few weeks I have been harrassed by my mates as to why I turned my back on working for what is suspposed to be one of the worlds best airlines, so thought I would share my experience to anybody interested so that perhaps any other starry-eyed low-time pilots such as myself can avoid the Cathay trap.

Was I stupid? arrogant? drunk? did I fail?? No on all counts and let me set the record straight as to why.

After a series of interviews, medicals etc and all that good stuff, I was given the nod to join the Cathay cadet program. This involves spending over a year in Adelaide at a private flying college sponsored by Cathay, after which I would have a commerical license signed off for Hong Kong, and would then go straight into the (back)seat of a heavy jet. Sounds too good to be true right?, well wait theres more.

Thankfully I have a few friends in Cathay, both First Officers and very senior Captains (ex management in fact), all level headed blokes with no axe to grind, and the overriding impression I received from them, and from a few other experienced guys in other airlines (Emirates, ANA, VA), whom I spoke in the lead up to this decision was basically this: dont do it, but if you do, make sure you have a very good sense of humor.

Cathay fly to some great destinations, but as it was pointed out, I would have zero chance of enjoying them, ever, because the time spent at destination is less than 24 hours, usually 18 hours, and apparently after a flight, you have to sleep straight away because you usually arrive after not having slept all night, and then you have to get presleep for the following nights flight. All the crew go straight to bed (called "slam-clickers"!), and even if you wanted to have a drink with one of the flight attendants (which as a single guy I always thought was part of the job description in any airline!), well the cabin crew will just stay in their rooms because they have to save their overnight allowances to compensate for their low salary. And besides apparently, most of them are quite difficult to communicate with.
So essentially you turn up to work 70 minutes before a flight, then go straight to the aircraft where after takeoff you usually go to sleep for the first half of the flight, and "work" for the second half of the flight.
Work basically involves checking off flight times on a fight plan, doing fuel checks, following the route on maps, and talking to ATC. This is not hands on flying, but "flight management".
As a second officer, you arent allowed to takeoff or land. So basically you are locked in the flight deck or the bunk, for 12-16hours, and then you spend an hour on a bus to a 3 star hotel in the middle of nowhere, where you sleep and cant go out because the hotel is usually in an industrial or outskirts area, and then you do it all in reverse again back to Hong Kong.

It will then take you a few days to get over your jet lag, which apparently is not very good for your long term health. And speaking of health, if the job doesnt kill you then the pollution will apparently. The government even has official "stay indoors" days! because it can get quite thick.

Rinse, repeat, for four years, the average time spent as a second officer.
And just in case you were thinking of leaving Cathay to fly elsewhere, the rating Cathay give is a "P2X" which is not a full conversion and is Hong Kong specific, so other airlines will not accept your Airbus or Boeing qualifications.

Then when you finally go right hand seat as First Officer, it only lasts 2 years maximum as you will then become a "Relief Pilot" which is another term they invented to save costs to save having 2 captains on a flight. What this means is that you will spend your time doing the same job as.. guess what..? Yes a Second Officer again! So great, you do relief pilot work for probably 5 to 10 years until your command. And they have just extended the retirement age, so you will have to wait even longer for upgrade to Captain.

And even better, when you are a first officer and a Captain, you will be working your ring off. The working hours are apaprently ****e. I personally dont mind working hard but these guys say that their efforts are beyond resonable definitions. They told me about a loophole the compnay uses called "split duty" where you fly to a destination at night, spend 40 minutes on a bus to a crappy hotel where you sleep for around 5 hours, then bus back to the airport and fly back to Hong Kong, which I guess would be ok once in awhile but they do it all the time. Sounds like the Hong Kong regulator turns a bit of a blind eye over there which is not very reassuring.

And then every year Cathay will introduce a new route or destination where they will make guys fly really hard, wait until the regulator tells them to use more pilots on the route or rest more, which they will do for a short time, but then they will go back to the previous roster to see how long they can try it on for. Which sounded to me like some backyard GA outfits in Oz you read about.

So surely all this sounds a little backward as far as employee relations go I asked them? "Exactly" was the response, which is why Cathay is always in court. They recently hired first officers directly over second officers who were ready for upgrade, which in my book sounds a bit dissapointing. The second officers actually took the comany to court over it. And the cabin crew are always on the brink of striking too.

Oh and if you complain? Well they mark your comments in your file, then basically tell you to leave and work elsewhere.. Hmmm.

So what about the cool aircraft you guys fly? Well they say that after a few years it doesnt really matter if its a 380 or a 180, the flying becomes just a job, which I guess I can understand.

So whats it really like being a 2nd officer in Cathay? I enthusiastically asked my potentially fellow aviation brethren, looking for some kind of bone here..well not good news here either Im afraid. The unofficial line is that you are treated with a subtle mix of indifference and resentment, and if you join as a cadet you are basically considered as incompetent also, and a poor substitute for the higher paid Captain who would otherwise be sitting there were it not for managements constant drive to keep cutting costs. Plenty of jokes about second officers being known as "sandwich eaters", because thats all they do. Sounds pretty depressing to me. They make you do a simulator every 2 months (other pilots only do simulator exercises every 6 months).
And eventually, and I do mean eventually, in around 15 years, when you come up for command, there is a very large failure rate amongst cadets. Basically this is they say because the cadets dont have any real aviation experience to fall back on. And once you fail a command upgrade twice, then they either sack you or keep you as a first officer for ever. This deal keeps on getting worse by the minute!

Finally, the M question. Money.
So great, now Im back in Hong Kong and its time to live it up right? After all Ive made it to the top and can kick back a little in my huge pad and German car? Hong Kong with its low tax and company subsidised housing sounds like a pretty sweet deal? Well err not quite.
I was in for a shock - take home buying power for a First Officer is below Jetstar! Hard to believe but true. Food, gas, and most importantly beer, and well even more importantly a place to live, cost an absolute fortune. With a newly minted salary, I did some checking because I didnt believe what the guys were saying, and even if I spend two thirds of my take-home dollars, I would still be living in a classic highrise smaller than the size of my garage, complete with washing hanging out the windows (plenty of property websites to check for yourself). And thats just to rent, because to own a house up there now is apaprently impossible because of the rising prices.
Previously the pilots received a housing subsidy, but now management has introduced a "C" scale package which is just basic salary (there were A and B scale packages before, each better than the last).
And if you try and send money home back to Australia, what you can buy with your salary is pretty minimal. It would take me 20 years to save for a small house in Doncaster, a fairly average Aussie suburb, which is where my family is.
And dont fall into the trap that the comany will keep wages to match inflation as they wont.

So just to reconvince myself that this is the best decision I never made, just let me recap:

salary - less than any Australian airline..crap
accommodation - living in an apartment with refugee camp dimensions?..crap
lifestyle - not being able to go jogging because of the pollution, and having any family exposed to that kind of smog?..crap
fellow pilots - sorry boys, nothing personal but not exactly a cosy family
cabin crew - nothing on a Virgin girl! (call me shallow)
career prospects - this airline seems to always slot in other pilots ahead of others on the list..the rating then is crap
flying - playing seat warmer for 4 years..crap
how hard I have to work...I believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work, but from what I hear its like slave labour.
Bottom line..40 years of that? Tell them theyre dreaming!

Hope this little synopsis doesnt appear too negative, after all I did a lot of research and tried to be objective the whole way through, after all I even committed to the entire interview process, but frankly it just plainly doesnt stack up, that to leave Australia to work for those kind of people would mean that there would have to be something wromg with me.

I encourage anybody else out there considering Cathay to really do their homework too and make up their own mind - dont take it from me.But I would be suprised if you come to any other conclusion. I was suprised at how appealing the lcoal creer options really are, and that the grass was not greener. It seems that the good old days at Cathay are exactly that.

Also BTW the decision to say no to Cathay was perhaps a little easier than just saying no, as I was not the only one, as a few applicants I have kept in touch with have done the same - apologies if I sounded like the first!.

I personally think its better to get some solid command and multi hours before I go for an airline, if only for the self reassurance of having some experience for my later command days. So right now Im taking a solid GA path instead with some multi turboprop hours on the horizon, and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar, or one of the nearby airlines (Brunei etc).

But have still got the name on the file for Qantas as a backup just in case

Gives the picture on the B or C scales. I'm not sure how true but its an interesting one.

[oicur12.again]

The author of the above post has an agenda.

The majority of his reasoning can be applied to most long haul airlines - they are not CX specific.

"....and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar"

How times have changed.

[Mr. Hat]

Just to clarify - I'm not the author... just a reader!

The author is:

anothernewbie


Probationary PPRuNer

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: melbourne
Posts: 2

[Keg]

I suspect that 'anothernewbie' is going to find it very difficult to find ANY flying job that meets their very strict criteria for maximum money, minimum time at work, short time to command, lots of 'hands on', etc. :rolleyes:

[SMOC]

Thread drift,



Foreign pilots employed direct entry into CX are STILL on B scale and there is no plan to alter this.

Argument over.


I don't think so, please tell me the last foreign pilot who was employed with housing? Fact is all expats hired in the last year don't get housing, even the instuctor pilots that were promised housing have had it withdrawn.

Being hired on B scale without housing is not B scale! If you want to call it B scale go ahead why don't you call it A scale :}

[aussie027]

That reads like probably a pretty good assessment of the facts of the situation to me.
None of that is what outsiders or potentials ever get to hear from the companies involved. Hearing it from the insiders who have been thru it and /or still work there is the best info you can get.
I would have made the same decision even if offered a direct entry SO slot given those facts.:hmm:

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

I wouldn't get a warm fuzzy feeling or have that group hug about combined seniority list's just yet.

Go back to the mid 1980's when airline companies big and small were bought and sold by the likes of Ables etc, and watch the fighting over combining or intergrating seniority list's. Some guys in East-West, Skywest, did very well compared to those in the Ansett system.

Worth having a read of the book about the history of the AFAP, and trying to get the Dash-8 guys into Qantas, and the reason for being knockbacked!

Perhaps some of the Qantas Pacifc Barons may yearn for the simple life of captaining a Dash8 around rural NSW, to avoid jet lag a nd soend more quality time with the family?

[SkyScanner]

Senior Qantas management including Mr Alan Joyce, Mr Lyell Strambi, Capt Peter Wilson and Mr John Farrow (from Oldmeadow Consulting) today delivered the message that Qantas is not prepared to work with pilots to provide written job security provisions in return for improved flexibility and productivity.

AIPA provided management with a list of claims (CLICK HERE) signalled at the start of negotiations over six months ago, aimed at providing members with an avenue to Secure Our Flying under reasonable terms and conditions. These claims identify areas of work traditionally considered by both parties to be “Qantas” work and additionally set out methods for dealing with the distribution of that work.

How did it get to this?

After witnessing the demise of the “mainline” business through mismanagement under the stewardship of many different CEOs and Boards, AIPA members have indicated through surveys and direct discussions that no deal is to be done without formal written agreements in place regarding the critical areas of job security and career progression.

Unfortunately this message has failed to get through to senior management and a loud and united voice is now required from all pilots.

The degradation of mainline has, as we all know, not stopped at the first subsidiary. Jetstar is now being undercut and off-shored at every opportunity, with the imminent formation of more off-shore bases proudly announced by Mr Joyce at recent Company roadshows. Additionally, QantasLink is under threat through the acquisition of new “fly-in, fly-out operations” (read: not operations that current pilots are ever likely to participate in!).

If mainline pilots thought they may somehow be immune to this - then think again!! The sham Jetconnect operations have seriously reduced members’ career opportunities and there are no guarantees from management that will restrict the rapid expansion of the off-shoring of mainline operations. In fact, management has confirmed that "all options will be considered".

After the years of neglect and asset stripping of mainline our members have endured, we not only have to give up our entitlements, but also our jobs to boot. Of course, it is the employees’ fault… and the engineers, cabin crew, baggage handlers, airport staff, administration staff and pilots that will mainly have to pay for it.

Unfortunately Qantas pilots and AIPA members, as custodians of our iconic airline, do not have long to turn this around.

Redundancies are imminent with the continual threat that a surplus of 80 to 90 pilots exists. Some categories will shortly run out of leave and with that will come a reduction in numbers and the prospect of even more redundancies. We do of course have some categories operating at comfortable margins above minimum (if not at maximum) however, management does not see fit to promote in order to avoid further degradation. Rather, management will continue with running down entitlements before showing you the door.

In summary, on instructions from our members, the focus of this EA negotiation is not remuneration but rather to secure a written agreement which provides job security. Qantas was advised of AIPA’s move away from remuneration based outcomes and our desire to consider contract flexibility in order to achieve job security and career progression provisions.

Management’s rejection of this position has led us to the Off Duty Pilot Meetings to be held as follows:

Sydney
Friday, 11 February 2011
St George Rowing Club
1 Levey Street, Wolli Creek NSW
11:00 am

Melbourne
Monday, 14 February 2011
Melrose Melbourne Conference and Reception Centre
Corner Melrose and Carrick Drives, Tullamarine VIC
11:00 am

AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, "no matter how low you go, they will always look for someone cheaper".

With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place and AIPA legal staff, the EA Negotiating Team and members of the COM and Executive will be present to answer questions. It is imperative that all members attend and wear your Secure Our Flying lanyards.

REMEMBER, IT’S YOUR FUTURE.

[Sir Loosalot]

Looks like things are starting to "heat-up" at the flying kangaroo. Today the CEO of Qantas rejected an offer from the pilots seeking job security in lieu of remuneration. In a statement released today.... Senior Qantas management delivered the message that Qantas is not prepared to work with pilots to provide written job security provisions in return for improved flexibility and productivity.

Further to this, the pilots have stated that......... AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we [AIPA] are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, "no matter how low you go, they [QF]will always look for someone cheaper".

Off-duty meetings are planned this week and next.

With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place.

One wonders how how long it will be before Operation Dragon will become Operation DragonSlayer..........

.... the rot really has set in...... very sad...

[Cost Index]

CLX - I think you're quite on the mark with a small number of those Barons liking to do just that.

[Ultergra]

A lot of pilots I have spoken to will be there.

I have a question.

This time 2 years ago, many pilots were threatened with redundancy.

Most took a flexi-line (pay cut) to raise $8m to keep some 130 pilot in a job for 12 months. Due to enough flexi-lines being taken, there were no redundancies.

It was then seen that Dixon received an $11m payout for ....

So is this just round two? I mean, if Qantas were serious about resurrecting the International arm of the airline, why would they get rid of some 80-90 pilots who would probably be need for expansion or increase in route frequency.

If we take a flexi line AGAIN to save our jobs, will Joyce retire, get a pay out and we're all still in the same boat?

Im pretty f*&ken sick of this game, I love the job, I love the crew I operate with, but for crying out loud, what is with these fricken chess matches? Joyce, it's things are so bad, take a bloody pay cut! Ha, yeah right!!

Is it time to apply to Virgin?

[gobbledock]

Joyce inherited a poison chalice when he took the gig at QF. We may all hate the wiley Dixon but he knew a lemon when he saw one and he knew that with all the cost cutting he presided over eventually something would have to give.
Years of cutting to the bone prior to Joyce's arrival has left him little left to skin. He knows that he has some real problems on his hands trying to maintain profit for the shareholders, but where is he going to turn his attention to next ? Yep, all those 'greedy, nasty selfish pilots' ( I say this tongue in cheek). Yes, how dare those pilots earn a decent quid keeping tens of thousands of people safe each day, sacrificing family life to work shift work and miss watching the kids grow up.

No I suspect Alan will go on one last cost cutting spree (or maybe several) hopefully jacking up the profits enough to set himself up with a tidy departure nest egg and maybe return as a consultant or board member ?

[Angle of Attack]

Dont bother with Virgin go for all the contracts happening atm, go to Rishworth and register, unless you need to stay here, everyone has there own situations.
F/O positions in Asia for 10k US atm. Think outside the red square..

[411A]

Wonder if this will be another Ansett?
QF certainly has fallen from its once lofty perch.

[hotnhigh]

Seat belts on. Area of severe turbulence approaching. And no, we aren't diverting.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Capt Kremin]

This is not round two. This is the main event. Qantas pilots, particularly junior pilots, need to be fully aware of the threat to their jobs.... note the word jobs there, not career. Your career was stuffed years ago.

[Tankengine]

I forsee Protected Industrial Action from the union and some private IA from individuals. Regretably - game on!:E

[SeldomFixit]

411A - its already a goner Son - RIP the rat:ugh:

[blow.n.gasket]

So let me get this straight.
Qantas Long-Haul pilots have not been on strike since 1966.
No BLF style, balaklava and base-ball bat negotiation tactics have been used.

Each time both the Union and the Management of the day had to agree to a negotiated proposal prior to submission to the rank and file members.(Am aware of arbitrated settlements from days gone by)
If the proposal ever got voted down ,back to negotiations and a new proposal, agreed to by both parties, would be re-submitted for a new vote.

So what exactly is Qantas Management now telling us?
Qantas pilots are too expensive and not efficient enough because the very same contract that Management have given tacit approval to ,over all these years is the root cause of Long-Hauls uncompetitiveness?
Would I be correct in summising from the Chief Pilots letter that Qantas Management are now so bereft of a business strategy apart from cost-cutting and off-shoring Aussie jobs onto cooly terms and conditions that they are no longer willing to negotiate on anything but their own agenda?.
In the same vein, even if Qantas pilots took this latest EBA inspired hyperbole at face value (pretty hard with 16% engagement levels amongst the line pilots) and the pilots were willing to take sizable pay cuts and worked a bit harder do you really think that Management would take their focus away from their off-shoring of jobs and guarantee their careers?

I wonder when the penny will finally drop?
Will the 500 odd Qantas pilots who will more than likely be retrenched , think about how many 767's and 747's that are mooted to be replaced come the introduction of the 787 ,finally wake up to the war that has been declared on them by Management?

If Management are not too careful the pilots might finally see themselves in a lose-lose situation with nothing to gain and say f*&k it ,if I'm going down then ........ (images of the russian retreat in Stalingrad come to mind, ie scorched earth policy)

[TIMA9X]

Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/)

Fighting words by Qantas and its pilots

February 9, 2011 – 7:56 pm, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)
A meeting between the senior management of Qantas and the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) this afternoon has been followed by grim words on both sides.
Qantas reaffirmed that “The international business is not sustainable in its current form and change is imperative for it to survive”.
The president of AIPA, Captain Barry Jackson, said “We are perplexed by their total rejection of any commitment to job security for our pilots linked to a reduced pay claim and substantial productivity improvements.”
Jackson made his comments in an interview after the meeting while Qantas circulated a detailed statement which is reproduced below at the end of this report.
AIPA will now hold meetings of its pilots in Sydney on Friday and Melbourne on Monday “asking the members what they now want their representatives to do to pursue their constructive wish for job security and workplace improvements that will make Qantas stronger,” Jackson said.
“The question needs to asked of Qantas as to why they seem prepared to let go of an investment in training of pilots to the highest standards of any airline by outsourcing piloting and fleet overseas and transferring assets to Jetstar to the detriment of the Qantas brand.”
Fighting words, not restricted to the pilot side of the issues at all.
This is the Qantas statement that was widely circulated In the company this evening.Qantas CEO Alan Joyce met with an AIPA delegation earlier today, 9 February 2011. This was the latest in a planned series of meetings to identify common ground for initiatives to improve productivity in the long haul business. Normal EBA negotiations were suspended while these meetings occurred.
Unfortunately prior to the scheduled discussions today AIPA threatened industrial action in the national press:
“The Australian and International Pilots Association is prepared to limit annual pay rises to 2.5% in return for jobs guarantees, but warns that it will apply to take protected industrial action if the company rejects the claim.” (The Australian, 8 February 2011)
It is important to note that the overall wage claim from AIPA is not 2.5% pa as reported in the press. The combined effect of the annual and classification increases currently proposed by AIPA is 14.4% over three years. The combined effect of the wage claim, classification table and travel claims submitted by AIPA is a cost increase of approximately 26% over three years, equivalent to an 8.15% increase year on year.
AIPA has apparently also informed the national press that it has claimed a Group wide seniority list, but no such claim has actually been made to the Company. Other AIPA claims are divisive and would potentially result in other Group pilots being made redundant before a mainline pilot could be assigned accrued leave. The claim to require mainline terms and conditions in other Group companies is untenable.
At today’s meeting Alan reiterated the points already made to AIPA in previous meetings. In particular:
1. Qantas is a great brand; the Group is committed to seeking to strengthen and grow the Qantas brand, but this has to be on the basis of the long haul business being profitable and returning its cost of capital.
2. Qantas will not agree to a clause in the long haul EBA that attempts to regulate wages in other Group companies or which would effectively prevent commercial codeshares with other Group companies (this is part of what AIPA refers to as its ‘job security claim’). The threat to the Qantas long haul business is from full service competitors such as Singapore Airlines and the Middle Eastern carriers; it is not from Jetstar.
3. Qantas is responsible for its own future and has to get its own house in order.
4. The international business is not sustainable in its current form and change is imperative for it to survive.
All claims in the current long haul bargaining round will be assessed by Qantas against a couple of simple but critical criteria:
• Will the change increase productivity and flexibility?
• Will the change make the long haul business more competitive?
This is not about reducing wages for current Qantas pilots. It is about reducing costs by increasing productivity.
Today’s meeting was not productive. AIPA is seeking commitments under the heading of ‘job security’ that in practice would have precisely the opposite effect. The only way to secure jobs for Qantas pilots is to make Qantas competitive and profitable.
The path of industrial action threatened in the national press by AIPA is counterproductive and a destructive diversion from the real task at hand.
Qantas remains committed to working with pilots on initiatives to secure the long-term future of the international business.
Later the war of words led to emails to AIPA members pulling apart the figures quoted in the Qantas statement as bogus and including these statements:AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, “no matter how low you go, they will always look for someone cheaper”.
With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place….
Qantas is unwilling to guarantee to pilots and to the public, that Qantas flights will be flown by Australian Qantas pilots. No matter what the pay claim is (which we say is reasonable and less than the claims of most unions at 2.5%), this company refuses to address the job security concerns of it’s pilots and the concerns of the public to not offshore Qantas pilots jobs!
Speaks for itself. (sorry if already posted)

This is the main event. Qantas pilots, particularly junior pilots, need to be fully aware of the threat to their jobs.... note the word jobsHave to agree, but believe this time you guys have a lot support with the public and within the industry. Think about all the great work QF pilots have demonstrated saving the "face of Qantas" with the recent events in SIN, LAX MNL Etc, all well covered in the media. Even the Q management guys calling this chess game (when the heat was on) praised its pilots professionalism and one of QFs biggest assets. They are hypocrites! The public would get this message easily, if handled right!

It is my view, AJ is going to have his last stand over his continual dehumanising of the mainline staff under the banner of cutbacks. There has been 10 years of this cutback cycle which leaves QF in this position we see today.

AJ, airlines are a people business as well.

[Captain.Que]

Qantas pilots are planning industrial action after a push for a new pay deal and job security broke down today.

The talks between the pilots union and senior managers led by chief executive Alan Joyce failed with both sides unable to agree on any issue.
In a statement tonight, the The Australian International Airline Pilots Association said Qantas was not prepared to work with its members to provide written job security provisions in return for improved flexibility and productivity.
The union, which represents 2300 pilots employed by the airline, has called meetings of its members in Sydney on Friday and in Melbourne next Monday.
It said management had informed the delegation today that regardless of any efficiencies that pilots offered, no formal job security provision would be written into their agreement with the airline.
Members attending the meetings were expected to discuss how any form of industrial action would proceed, the union said.
Qantas chief pilot Pete Wilson, who attended the meeting as a representative of the airline, said the union’s claims were divisive. He argued that management was not planning to reduce wages but was seeking to reduce costs by increasing productivity.
“Today’s meeting was not productive. AIAPA is seeking commitments under the heading of ‘job security’ that in practice would have precisely the opposite effect,” Capt Wilson said.
“The only way to secure jobs for Qantas pilots is to make Qantas competitive and profitable”.
Cpt Wilson said the combined effect of what the union was seeking would give the pilots a 26 per cent increase in pay and other benefits over three years, equivalent to an 8.15 per cent increase year on year – not the 2.5 per cent they are claiming.
So who is pulling Joyce's Strings?
Smacks of Clifford and Oldmeadow
This is not heading in the right direction

[Pegasus747]

Ben Sandilands wrote:
A meeting between the senior management of Qantas and the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) this afternoon has been followed by grim words on both sides.

Qantas reaffirmed that “The international business is not sustainable in its current form and change is imperative for it to survive”.

The president of AIPA, Captain Barry Jackson, said “We are perplexed by their total rejection of any commitment to job security for our pilots linked to a reduced pay claim and substantial productivity improvements.”

Jackson made his comments in an interview after the meeting while Qantas circulated a detailed statement which is reproduced below at the end of this report.

AIPA will now hold meetings of its pilots in Sydney on Friday and Melbourne on Monday “asking the members what they now want their representatives to do to pursue their constructive wish for job security and workplace improvements that will make Qantas stronger,” Jackson said.

“The question needs to asked of Qantas as to why they seem prepared to let go of an investment in training of pilots to the highest standards of any airline by outsourcing piloting and fleet overseas and transferring assets to Jetstar to the detriment of the Qantas brand.”

Fighting words, not restricted to the pilot side of the issues at all.

This is the Qantas statement that was widely circulated In the company this evening.

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce met with an AIPA delegation earlier today, 9 February 2011. This was the latest in a planned series of meetings to identify common ground for initiatives to improve productivity in the long haul business. Normal EBA negotiations were suspended while these meetings occurred.
Unfortunately prior to the scheduled discussions today AIPA threatened industrial action in the national press:
“The Australian and International Pilots Association is prepared to limit annual pay rises to 2.5% in return for jobs guarantees, but warns that it will apply to take protected industrial action if the company rejects the claim.” (The Australian, 8 February 2011)
It is important to note that the overall wage claim from AIPA is not 2.5% pa as reported in the press. The combined effect of the annual and classification increases currently proposed by AIPA is 14.4% over three years. The combined effect of the wage claim, classification table and travel claims submitted by AIPA is a cost increase of approximately 26% over three years, equivalent to an 8.15% increase year on year.
AIPA has apparently also informed the national press that it has claimed a Group wide seniority list, but no such claim has actually been made to the Company. Other AIPA claims are divisive and would potentially result in other Group pilots being made redundant before a mainline pilot could be assigned accrued leave. The claim to require mainline terms and conditions in other Group companies is untenable.
At today’s meeting Alan reiterated the points already made to AIPA in previous meetings. In particular:
1. Qantas is a great brand; the Group is committed to seeking to strengthen and grow the Qantas brand, but this has to be on the basis of the long haul business being profitable and returning its cost of capital.
2. Qantas will not agree to a clause in the long haul EBA that attempts to regulate wages in other Group companies or which would effectively prevent commercial codeshares with other Group companies (this is part of what AIPA refers to as its ‘job security claim’). The threat to the Qantas long haul business is from full service competitors such as Singapore Airlines and the Middle Eastern carriers; it is not from Jetstar.
3. Qantas is responsible for its own future and has to get its own house in order.
4. The international business is not sustainable in its current form and change is imperative for it to survive.
All claims in the current long haul bargaining round will be assessed by Qantas against a couple of simple but critical criteria:
• Will the change increase productivity and flexibility?
• Will the change make the long haul business more competitive?
This is not about reducing wages for current Qantas pilots. It is about reducing costs by increasing productivity.
Today’s meeting was not productive. AIPA is seeking commitments under the heading of ‘job security’ that in practice would have precisely the opposite effect. The only way to secure jobs for Qantas pilots is to make Qantas competitive and profitable.
The path of industrial action threatened in the national press by AIPA is counterproductive and a destructive diversion from the real task at hand.
Qantas remains committed to working with pilots on initiatives to secure the long-term future of the international business.

Later the war of words led to emails to AIPA members pulling apart the figures quoted in the Qantas statement as bogus and including these statements:

AIPA has been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, “no matter how low you go, they will always look for someone cheaper”.

With this in mind, at these meetings AIPA will confirm the direction from its members in regards to action to be taken. It is expected a discussion on Protected Industrial Action will take place….

Qantas is unwilling to guarantee to pilots and to the public, that Qantas flights will be flown by Australian Qantas pilots. No matter what the pay claim is (which we say is reasonable and less than the claims of most unions at 2.5%), this company refuses to address the job security concerns of it’s pilots and the concerns of the public to not offshore Qantas pilots jobs!

[The Chaser]

The number of K.1.W.1's motoring around on Aus domestic sectors the last coupla weeks ... is .... well :ooh: :hmm:

... the Trans Tasman trophy/s stand off's is/are gunna be a bit more of a joke :ugh:to watch/listen to :yuk:

... really :suspect: ... (if that is possible) :*

Unless of course ... The Aussies get some of that feral mongrel going :E ... it ain't limited to the grass pitch ewe's know :} :E

[KABOY]

Job Security??

How can any employee in the country expect job security from a company? Ask any CEO how safe his position is and the Board will respond with "We are currently satisfied with the results being delivered by XXXX".

There are no guarantees in life, just death and taxes. How can anyone be surprised with the response from Joyce and Co. Wake up and realise that unless you can deliver productivity and savings, everyones position is under review, including senior management.

I once believed that I was indispensable, until I was told someone was cheaper!

[Angle of Attack]

You are not there is ****loads of contracts happening....

[AnQrKa]

What exactly are the productivity gains proposed by AIPA?

[maralinga]

If you dont win the PR game....you've lost

[Higs]

Almost fell of my chair laughing when I read about Qantas pilots taking "protected industrial action".
As a group I wonder if you have what it takes?

[breakfastburrito]

maralinga, correct, QF's PR job is that much harder after recent events. Subsequent newspaper feature articles & publicity chronicling saves by QF pilots after a series of "unprecedented" mechanical events is not a strong hand for Qantas. Combine that with revelations of extortionate payouts to exec's (Dixon) & multi-million CEO packages, its going to be a tough sell.

[The Professor]

“Qantas pilots are too expensive and not efficient enough because the very same contract that Management have given tacit approval to ,over all these years is the root cause of Long-Hauls uncompetitiveness?”

QF, like most western incumbents, has been strong armed by belligerent labor unions into perpetuating pay and conditions inherited from a bygone era. The business environment has radically changed but employee work ethic has not.

QF must change to cope with carriers and levels of competition unheard of in previous decades.

I suggest that QF pilots should tread very carefully. The arrival of the 787 to replace a large chunk of the airlines wide body fleet could be the opportunity your managers will exploit.

[oicur12.again]

Smoc,

Are you saying that westerners are joining CX HKG based direct entry WITHOUT the housing allowance?

How on earth could newbie SO afford to live?

[breakfastburrito]

employee work ethic has not.
What exactly is the work ethic that Qantas pilots don't have that they should? I am genuinely curious.

['holic]

QF, like most western incumbents, has been strong armed by belligerent labor unions into perpetuating pay and conditions inherited from a bygone era.Perhaps you'd care to share with us some examples of union belligerence over the past decade. QF pilots just want to be able to negotiate with the company in good faith and generally be left alone to get on with the job.

During my almost 20 years in the company we've never come close to PIA. We've had pilots that have applied to transfer to J* under lesser T&Cs, as per the MOU the company agreed to, and this has been denied. After an ultimatum from the company to save $8m or face redundancies, the required savings were organised quickly with minimum fuss (only to have it handed straight to GD).

None of this sounds very belligerent to me.

I suggest that QF pilots should tread very carefully. The arrival of the 787 to replace a large chunk of the airlines wide body fleet could be the opportunity your managers will exploit.I have no doubt management's ultimate goal is to have the 787 crewed by an outside group on reduced conditions, possibly foreign based. But there is an abyss of industrial action, bad publicity and profit warnings between where we are now to them achieving this goal. I would suggest it's reached the point where most guys are willing to roll the dice. The real question is whether the CEO or board members will survive the turmoil.

[Jack Ranga]

As someone who has put his 17 year old daughter on a Qantas long haul flight (un-accompanied) for the past 8 years, I believe that a Qantas pilot is worth every cent that you earn. I hope you fellas believe that too.

It is me that has paid for that airfare (willingly) every year that Qantas has made a profit. What has changed?

In years past I believe that most Australians have been immensely proud of the Qantas brand.

I don't take too kindly to watching Joyce destroy my Airline. There were and are better qualified Australians that could manage this business without resorting to something that anybody could do (cutting costs).

Good Luck

[strim]

So as someone who got into this game with the plan of one day flying for the big Q, should I give up on the dream and choose a different path?

The majority of the posts here don't paint a rosy future.

[OneDotLow]

Strim,

There will be a lot of dick swinging from both sides in the next few months. Modern management call it 'negotiation'. At the end of the day there will still be an airline and there will also be an agreement on conditions that both QF and its pilots have both signed off on.

Keep flying and try to read through the media articles.

[astroboy55]

Hold on doomsdayers!!

There's alot of water to go under the bridge before 500 pilots are retrenched!! Think of all the retraining costs the company would incur..

All 737 Perth FO's,
Most A330 SO's
Alot of A380 SO's
Some SYD 737/767 FO's
Some MEL 737/767 FO's
A few BNE 737 FO's

This is a massive cost..one which the company im sure would rather avoid!!
Unfortunately, it will be necessary for action to be taken. My thoughts are that Joyce and his Morons dont think we have the solidarity to do it. I'm sure he will be proved wrong.

For all you Jetstar folks...don't for one second think you're immune/safe. As FSO/136 showed...you're only a few years behind us in finding yourselves in the same position.....

Interesting to see how this plays out in the media. The events of recent times are still fresh in peoples minds. I have no doubt it will also be made known that when punters buy a ticket on QF to cross the Tasman, thay are not flying with QANTAS pilots.....which is something many consider when choosing QF.
Unfortunately, I think QF will come out looking rather bad. Hopefully, Joyce and the idiots on the board will come out looking even worse. Time for a clean out.

[Ngineer]

Commitment to safety = ZERO.

Paying lip service to the spirit of Australia.....

[Tankengine]

So, will Joyce be here in 2 years time?:confused::E

[OneDotLow]

Tankengine :

So, will Joyce be here in 2 years time?

Good question... I have heard from more than one source that his vision and Leigh Clifford's vision are vastly different and that his contract may not be renewed this year.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Do either of them want Qantas to be here in two years?

[3 Holer]

My thoughts are that Joyce and his Morons dont think we have the solidarity to do it. I'm sure he will be proved wrong.



I would like to think this is true, but in reality........... ??

However, Oldmeadow and Coysh thought the same about the Ansett pilots (no solidarity) and we know what the end result of that was.

I forsee Protected Industrial Action from the union and some private IA from individuals. That's not going to happen either. With all the industrial issues QF have had in the past 10 years, if it didn't happen then , it won't happen now and Joyce, Oldmeadow et al know it!

[bubble.head]

Has anyone notice how many EBA negotiations are being taken place by qantas at the time? Qantas long haul, qantas lame, eastern pilots, eastern fa (soon), eastern tamworth engineers, sunstate engineers, sunstate fa...etc And around the corner, theres the sunstate pilots as well.

[OneDotLow]

bubble head :

Has anyone notice how many EBA negotiations are being taken place by qantas at the time? Qantas long haul, qantas lame, eastern pilots, eastern fa (soon), eastern tamworth engineers, sunstate engineers, sunstate fa...etc And around the corner, theres the sunstate pilots as well.

...which is precisely why Alan Joyce has come out with the announcement about the company's future when he did.

[breakfastburrito]

FED SEC, you pose a very important question. Say Qantas were to enter bankruptcy, what would happen to the wholly subsidiaries. Would it be possible shareholders receive shares in any new entity, a Jetstar Group holding company? Would the Qantas sale act be extinguished? Could Qantas name be sold to holding company for re-branding? Hypothetically speaking

[The Green Goblin]

bubble head :

Quote:
Has anyone notice how many EBA negotiations are being taken place by qantas at the time? Qantas long haul, qantas lame, eastern pilots, eastern fa (soon), eastern tamworth engineers, sunstate engineers, sunstate fa...etc And around the corner, theres the sunstate pilots as well.
...which is precisely why Alan Joyce has come out with the announcement about the company's future when he did.

To be sure, to be sure :yuk:

['holic]

BB,
While I hear where you're coming from, I can't believe that any sane board member would see this as a good strategy. If Qantas, the core brand of the company, was allowed to go bankrupt I don't think anyone in senior management would survive the backlash from the shareholders, government and Australian public, IMHO.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Mid year - Short haul FAs, Ramp staff........

Sunstate Engineers dispute now 6 months in.

Good luck Alan.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

QAN shares are for the entire group. I don't think they can just declare part of the business bankrupt. I'd assume the board would be voted out before then.

[standard unit]

Trouble is Steve that it seems that it's only your boys who have had the cojones to take them on and win.

Your lot saw off scrotum face much to the delight of the rank and file. :D

The union representing my interests (LH FAAA) is run as an autocracy with the person in charge seemingly without principle and acquiescent to the companies every whim. :{

What a dream it would be to see all the QF unions unite as one in the face of what appears to be the management driven dismantling of our once proud company....

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

LH pilots are ready to stand up. Just heard that Eastern AIPA members have voted 100% in favour of action. I will be in the crowd at the pilots meetings if you have any questions.

[breakfastburrito]

Thanks for the comments 'holic & FED SEC, I'll just considering (aloud) all the outlier possibilities because I cannot fathom where this strategy is leading. It must make sense in some realm. From the outside it seems like a path to destroying the company...

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

From the outside it seems like a path to destroying the company...

Your union leaders are smart enough to structure their decisions to avoid such an outcome. The Fair Work Act is also on your side.

['holic]

I agree, it's like watching a train crash in slow motion. For the life of me I can't understand how management allowing the perception that mainline is not viable, not as safe as it was, that Jetstar is a realistic replacement for international ops etc etc is helping the situation.
I know there are a few EAs coming up, but I would have thought that any gains made around the bargaining table from this would be more than offset by loss of consumer confidence in the brand.

Whilst we're on hypotheticals, how would FWA view compulsory redundancies in mainline when those employees had previously been denied the opportunity to transfer to J* ?

[hotnhigh]

One has to remember the senior management have nothing when it comes to a recovery from where qantas now stands. Last week, the CEO made some pre emptive comments to perhaps 'soften' the market for what lay ahead. All signs aren't good. As has previously been stated, market share reducing, profits reducing and jetstar unable to save the day. The strategy endorsed by the board has brought these consequences.
Interestingly, with the first shots fired in the propaganda war, qantas wants to try and make this out to be a big push by the pilots for a substantial pay rise. WTF? This would have to be the furtherest from the truth, with job security, job security and job security being the number 1,2, and 3 priorities.
Qantas' initial replies to the breakdown in negotiations seems to indicate a very large lack of understanding of the core issue at hand. At first thought, i believed that this couldn't posssibly be their reply, but on second thoughts it's obvious that they have had no real understanding when it comes to working with qantas and it's people to create, what should be the best airline in the world.
Instead they turn the problem into a media circus and have a shot at their pilots in a step to deflect attention away from the real destruction of the business that they have caused.
One would hope this matter could be resolved sooner rather than later but unfortunately I don't think this will happen.
Fed sec, thanks for your input, will be interested to hear some of your views tomorrow.
Now, back to the propaganda.

[Jimothy]

When it suits them it is all Qantas - You Know "The Qantas Group"
When it doesn't suit them, Qantas and Jetstar are totally separate companies.
:E

[skybed]

Is it time to band together with ALL QF unions:ok: having one voice to bring to the publics attention the mismanagement and bad decision made/continue to be made by the board/CEO etc.
One voice to run the PR machine:D

[SMOC]

Smoc,

Are you saying that westerners are joining CX HKG based direct entry WITHOUT the housing allowance?

How on earth could newbie SO afford to live?


Yep that's exactly right, and I fear when they realise and want to leave they will have no useful hours as P2X, so 5 years down the track when they have 1000hrs F/O wide body time plus 5 yrs seniority under their belt but want to leave they will still have no useful command time, so 10 years later when they want to leave with 500hrs wide body command time they will have seniority handcuffs and won't leave to become an S/O, F/O because of the pay cut.

Aviation, it ain't what it used to be!

[Captain.Que]

Qantas is "on the brink" as the airline's management "trashes its brand" and seeks to "smash its pilots", the pilots' union claimed today as the spectre of strike action loomed.
As the industrial climate at the airline heats up, the pilots' union president said the situation was a "tragedy", likening it to the demise of Ansett.
The union has said it is prepared to limit wage claims for long-haul mainline pilots to 2.5 per cent a year in return for job guarantees with Qantas.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Qantas rejected the union's claims, saying the pay rise sought was well above 2.5 per cent and that the only way job security was to ensure the airline was competitive and profitable.
"The combined effect of the wage claim and other issues submitted by the union represents a cost increase to Qantas of approximately 26 per cent over three years, equivalent to an 8.15 per cent increase year on year," a spokesman said.
"The international business is not sustainable in its current form and change is imperative for it to survive," he said.
But the union claimed the current course would send the airline to a similar fate to Ansett and Australian Airlines.
"We are witnessing the demise of an icon through mismanagement," said Australian and International Pilots Association president Barry Jackson.

"This is not the first time some of the Qantas managers have been through this. Many were centrally involved in the destruction of Ansett and Australian Airlines and back then, as they are today, the same industrial consultants are advising them.

"If Qantas disappears they will have wiped out all of the founding entities in Australian aviation," Mr Jackson said.
If there's one element of agreement between the union and the airline it's the perilous state of Qantas' international operations.
Last week, the airline's chief executive Alan Joyce warned unless the airline innovated, the financial future of Qantas' international operations was at risk.
"If we continue on our current path, there will be a real question mark over the viability of Qantas International," Mr Joyce said, foreshadowing the rough industrial landscape ahead.
"This year we will be negotiating a number of major industrial agreements. Like many Australian companies we are looking at a tightening skills market and this is putting pressure on many industrial frameworks," Mr Joyce said.
"Our aim will be to bring our people with us as we continue to innovate and improve our business."
But the union boss accused "hardline" Qantas management of risking "inciting a catastrophe".
"We have been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, 'no matter how low you go, we will always look for someone cheaper'," Mr Jackson said.
He cited the offshoring of crew in JetConnect (Qantas' operation based in New Zealand) as a "sham" and warned the airline intends to set up more offshore bases.
"After the years of neglect and asset stripping of mainline our members have endured, we not only have to give up our entitlements, but also our jobs to boot," Mr Jackson said.
"Qantas pilots are the custodians of public safety and the true inheritors of the airlines iconic status. Job security provisions are common in many industrial agreements and should not be an excuse for inciting a catastrophe." he said.
Union meetings with pilots on Friday in Sydney and Monday in Melbourne will gauge support for future industrial action.
"It probably won't happen anytime soon but we're taking it to the members over the next day or two," Mr Jackson said.
The Qantas spokesman said the threat of industrial action was counterproductive and a "destructive diversion from the real task at hand".
"Qantas remains committed to working with pilots on initiatives to secure the long-term future of the international business," the airline's spokesman said.

[Captain.Que]

I am by nature a conservative person.Not a radical by any definition of the word.....but....
It is time for all Qantas employees to say....enough is enough.How that is to be done I'm not sure.However a good place to start would a meeting of all union heads and from that, a meeting with Joyce and Clifford.Proceed from there depending on the response.It has been said before in other forums and for other reasons...but....Ladies and Gentlemen of Qantas "it is time"
Seize the day.
Post 147 of the "Qantas a Business in Decline "Thread

[TBM-Legend]

If you don't like the way Qantas does business I suggest you use your democratic right to move elsewhere.....:D

[DEFCON4]

Ben Sandilands
The rhetoric in the Qantas pilots dispute today is more bitter than anything heard in airline circles since the infamous pilot strike of 1989.

But it is not otherwise similar to that brawl, which provoked the strongest anti-union reaction from a Labor government since Ben Chifley used troops to break a coal miners strike in July 1949.

Instead, this brawl, whether it leads to a Qantas pilot strike or not, is one that is set to force Canberra to deal with the “I-now-call-Singapore-home” effect in which Qantas is shifting its flying and its resources offshore, in contravention of the purpose of the Qantas Sale Act, and preparing to import foreign pilots to undercut Australian pilot pay.

The business plan of the current Qantas management, to deAustralianise Qantas, and continue to sacrifice “costly” legacy flight and maintenance arrangements through outsourcing , is something the Gillard government and Abbott opposition haven’t been prepared to contemplate.

But in this sense, that of forcing itself into the political arena, it is an incredibly risky dispute for Qantas and the pilots to engage in.

Both sides know this. They have their lobbyists on the ground in Canberra at this moment.

As far as strike action goes, even if there is an overwhelming vote for protected action on the floor at off-duty pilot meetings tomorrow and on Monday, a formal ballot will be required of all pilots, and any consequent disruption to Qantas flights would be weeks away. (Easter sounds good.)

The reality for Qantas has already been signalled by CEO Alan Joyce. The international business is unsustainable, and in need of serious investment. Less clearly signalled was the culpability of his management in further running the product up against the wall by failing to correct (so far) the disastrous fleet planning errors by his predecessors, and removing the engine shop that actually kept the aged Rolls-Royce engines reliable on its clapped out 747 fleet, followed by a cluster of failures that has damaged customer confidence in the carrier.

As for the world headline-grabbing A380 incident, Qantas under Joyce has learnt nothing about avoiding self harm, embracing a power-by-the-hour deal for those Rolls-Royce engines in which it found itself left ignorant of issues that were known to the manufacturer.

Internationally, Qantas is being destroyed by better product being flown more directly to more destinations, and has tried to find an answer across its overseas and domestic networks by transferring assets to a Jetstar product that its higher-yielding customers detest.

These management failings give the pilots nowhere to go other than to take their skills and experience to Emirates, Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, all of whom are carving up Qantas up in terms of product and schedule.

At yesterday’s meetings between the Australian and International Pilots Association and Qantas management, including Oldmeadow Consulting ((a firm associated in the union’s mind with the supplying of strike breakers) both sides dug in deeply.

Neither side agreed on how much a proposed pilot pay and productivity deal from the association would cost, and the key point was that the company refused point blank to contemplate any deal which wrote in job security.

This morning Qantas had not made any further comment on the dispute.

However, the association hardened its language, with a statement headed “Tragedy looms for Qantas as hard line management trashes its brand, seeks to smash its pilots”.

It said:

Qantas is on the brink this morning as a questionable management team shows its contempt for its workforce by refusing to negotiate job security in return for improved flexibility and productivity.

President of the Australian and International Pilots Association Barry Jackson said the situation was a tragedy, with management seemingly eager to destroy its relationship with loyal workers.

“We are witnessing the demise of an icon through mismanagement. This is not the first time some of the Qantas managers have been through this. Many were centrally involved in the destruction of Ansett and Australian Airlines and back then, as they are today, the same industrial consultants are advising them. If Qantas disappears they will have wiped out all of the founding entities in Australian aviation.

“This dispute is about jobs and whether there will be a recognisable aviation industry based in Australia in the future.”

Mr Jackson said that the degradation of Qantas mainline has not stopped at the first subsidiary.

“Jetstar is now being undercut and off-shored at every opportunity, with the imminent formation of more off-shore bases proudly announced by Mr Joyce at recent company roadshows.”

[rmcdonal]

Just heard that Eastern AIPA members have voted 100% in favour of action.
What all 12 of them?

[Kangaroo Court]

Is it 1989 yet?

[C441]

If you don't like the way Qantas does business I suggest you use your democratic right to move elsewhere.....

Yes, that is one option.
But the majority of staff, pilots in particular, are immensely loyal to the Qantas brand as opposed to the Qantas management.

Unfortunately the upper echelons of the organisation are more interested in promoting Jetstar and other entities. If they were so keen to promote the future of Qantas as a whole (including Jetstar) then John Borghetti would now be CEO, not Alan Joyce.

[The The]

Finally the media is picking up on long standing employee sentiments regarding mismanagement, bullyboy tactics and trashing the brand.

Bye Bye Mr Joyce and Co.

[ozbiggles]

Seems to me the only thing that has saved Qantas form some VERY big bills recently is the SKILL of the pilots.
And the Qantas Board thinks they can save more money for their ever increasing salary by further eroding the Pilots conditions and job security.
Imagine how much money they might have for their salary if they weren't so busy paying fines for fixing the cargo market .... but they weren't responsible for that were they......

[ekolbregit]

It's about time the folk at Qantas accepted the fact that there is no longer the concept of a "job for life".
Many of us have not had job security for years yet we still manage to live happy and fulfilled lives.
Get over it.

[astroboy55]

Will the Jetstar crew stand up and support the mainline pilots (say, in the event that during some kind of action, a 'Jetstar charter' is used to crew a mainline service)?

Agree, also looking forward to hearing your input Steve.

As far as Jetconnect/the new freight operation is concerned, im not 100% sure if mainline trains them, but if so, why don't the mainline trainers just say 'i resign from training.......'

[rmcdonal]

Will the Jetstar crew stand up and support the mainline pilots (say, in the event that during some kind of action, a 'Jetstar charter' is used to crew a mainline service)?
Can they, legally?
That would be a form of unprotected industrial action wouldn't it?

[neville_nobody]

It's about time the folk at Qantas accepted the fact that there is no longer the concept of a "job for life". Many of us have not had job security for years yet we still manage to live happy and fulfilled lives. Get over it.

I think the issue is more to do with offshoring your job and keeping Australian jobs on Australian AOC's in Australia, which ultimately helps everybody.
The management's idea of a good airline will be Australian registered aircraft with crews flying in from all over Asia and the Pacific to crew them for a bowl of rice and a couple of days in a cheap hotel.

[ANCDU]

It is very early days in these negotiations, and AJ and his mates are well aware the outcome of these negotiations will have a great affect on the other EBA's in the Qantas group. The fact that he can't give a loyal group of employees any type of employement guarantee basically shows the companies intentions of what they intend to do.

For those of you who think this is a Qantas mainline long haul issue, think again. Every airline executive and consultant in the region will see how this is played out and use it as a weapon against T&C's, remember that Qantas conditions are regarded as the benchmark in Australia, and if they reduce, so will yours!

Personally i think this is the start of a big confrontation, and i don't think AJ and his mates at Oldmeadow realise the amount of angst or even the motivation of the employees in Qantas. Qantas employees don't see this as a pay issue any more, this is about saving THEIR careers and more importantly THEIR airline.

Maybe management has finally bitten of more than they can chew!;) We can only hope they choke on it!

[Poto]

This should have happened a few EBA's ago. Now it's going to be a big sh!t fight. One that has the company's future at stake. Dixon had no clue how badly QF would be hit during the Engineers action, maybe this time the costing department might think twice before allowing industrial action to go on and on.

For those that don't understand the Jobs security issue, my take is that if they wanna out source flying that Mainline does now, then The Pilots wants a clause that says it must be on the same T & C's that exist in the Mainline EBA. Effectively cutting off the cost mechanism that is causing the removal of Flying from Mainline pilots to other entities.

It seems crazy to have Pilots on assigned leave, pilots on flexi lines, pilots forced to take LSL, and crew on Blank lines doing nothing while QF repaints an A330 and sends it to somewhere QF used to go and recruiting pilots into it's subsidiary to fly the route. :ugh:

If they sat down and worked through the issues everyone could get a lash at the expansion, nobody needs to be sitting around waiting to be retrenched and Everyones T & C's could be improved:ok:

[-438]

How much is Qantas (mis)management prepared to spend on this fight? How many millions are they spending with consultants, Wirthless PR, lawyers?? How much income will be lost as a result of lost bookings, lack of confidence in the brand?
Just remember who has been saving Qantas' skin for the last few years with all these management induced near disasters.
CEO's & airline executives can be replaced by better cheaper people tomorrow. You cannot replace millions of hours of highly trained pilots overnight & remain safe. (1989 they tried it, it was not safe & it cost more in the long run)
An airline that is not safe is gone tomorrow.

[Ken Borough]

Wirthless PR

What a very clever pun, very well done? :D:D

[balance]

Latest from News.com:

PILOT JOBS NOT AT RISK - QANTAS

QANTAS has rejected claims that the jobs of its pilots are under threat, after a union threatened strike action.

Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) president Barry Jackson today said a meeting with airline management had failed to resolve key issues, including fears about the offshoring of jobs.

But Qantas said pilot concerns about job security were unfounded and warned that any industrial action would hurt its business and passengers.

"Qantas has not made a pilot redundant in almost 40 years and there is no threat to the job security of our pilots," it said in a statement.

The strike threat comes amid ongoing negotiations between pilots and Qantas management over a new enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) for international pilots.

.."The threat of industrial action is part of the unions posturing to get increased wages and conditions for international pilots as part of the EBA negotiations and to limit the ability of Qantas group to compete with other airlines," the airline said.

AIPA members will meet in Sydney tomorrow and in Melbourne on Monday and the union says it is ready to take industrial action in pursuit of its claims.

"All our claims are based around job security and career progression, tying ourselves with the Qantas brand," Mr Jackson.


OK, well if our concerns about "job security are unfounded" then easy fix - write a clause in the EBA giving the job security asked for. There's no risk right?

Wirthless PR

Classic!:ok:

[Keg]

Really? Jobs aren't under threat? Less than two years ago Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant. Many pilots worked reduced hours to save the jobs and ensure no colleague would be made redundant. Shortly thereafter Geoff Dixon (who wasn't CEO at the time) was 'gifted' $10 million due to changing tax rules in the previous financial year.

If there is no threat to pilots jobs, why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?

If there is no threat to pilot jobs, why won't Qantas give a written undertaking that Qantas pilots will fly the 787 when it arrives?

Already Qantas pilots have seen Tasman flying given to a company called Jetconnect who fly Qantas aeroplanes on routes formerly flown by Qantas pilots, using crew wearing Qantas uniforms who are NOT Qantas pilots. Already Qantas pilots have seen many routes formally operated by Qantas aircraft and crew 'gifted' to Jetstar.

Qantas pilots jobs are at risk. They'll be replaced by the cheapest possible option. Anyone with two arms, two legs and a pilot license will be who they are after.

[Level-Headed]

In 2007 Qantas reported a record Profit before tax of $1,032 million. (Worlds most profitable airline at the time). Then Fuel Soared, WFC, Failed Private Equity Takeover, Price fixing fines, A380 and other incidents so that by 2011 a profit of less than 200mill is all that can be extracted out of a business that seems to want to destroy itself by internally ripping itself apart. Jet-star being initially setup to stop the perceived erosion by management of their turf by Low Cost Virgin and later Tiger. Now This threat has been effectively capped. And now in a totally logic defining:ugh: move this same subsidiary is turning and canibalizing it's own parent whilst those responsable for this mad turn of events have the audacity to declare that they do this in order to become more competitive in an unfair airline world?:=. Or as Mr Joyce recently put it "Innovating'..Should the title to this story read "How to Turn a Very profitable Business into a Potentially less profitable one?" Or perhaps "How The Blond Lead The Blind?"

The old saying "You get what you put in" fits this case like a rug. Emirates, Ethiad, Qatar have simply gotten what they have invested in. More routes, better and newer planes and to my mind superior service which logically leads one to conclude that passengers have voted with their wallets taking their bums elsewhere. Still those at the helm claim this is due to those airlines operating in an unfair level playing field...Perhaps they should be reminded that if it wasn't for the QF Frequent traveler program monopoly of corporate travel and the Government's nearly obligatory awarding them the majority of their corporate account (Protectionism ring a bell anyone?) then Qantas would have disappeared long time ago..

The only thing that can save Qantas now is real leadership, lots of money to invest, a rethink of the two (Three, four or five?) brand strategy, a radical change in the short to medium fleet acquisition program and most importantly a re-energized and engaged work force....And why not add a sprinkle of luck as well?

I hope shareholders (whom also share in the blame) finally realize that if they continue to support a management team as deluded as this they will in the not to distant future be lead to a point at which their money is invested in a company so small as to be irrelevant in a global aviation environment, leading to the impossibility of ever achieving record profits of the likes of 2007 (Unless of course you can achieve profits by striping even more from the people that make it happen...Staff:=)..After all it doesn't take a genius to work out that the serious money is at the front end of the plane and not at the back end charging $10 for an isle seat to ordinary folk.

How sad to think that in less than a decade one of the most admired, prestigious and recognized global brands can potentially be turned into nothing more than a regular flying service.

My two cents worth anyway

Cheers

[rodchucker]

You guys have got to take a stand on this one as it has a horrible stench about it.

Surely some advertising great can run a whole media campaign on

Does $8m=$10m

It does at the rat.

How many pilots does it take to support a Rat CEO....the lot.

Endless options with this one I would have thought and all will be well and truly understood by the travelling public because they can comprehend GREED.

Maybe you could even add in the shadows of some old HIH Executives.

[balance]

Are you guys in Jetstar feeling secure? I probably wouldn't if I were you. From the Manila Standard (and taken from another BB - regards to the poster on that BB):

Jestar to transfer 400 airline jobs to PH
by Jeremiah F. de Guzman

Australian budget carrier Jetstar Airways will transfer over 400 airline jobs to the Philippines and plans to launch flights to popular local tourist spots such as Boracay and Cebu.

“The Philippines is a strong Asian market. Traffic is high due to Filipino workers outside the country,” Jetstar Group chief executive Bruce Buchanan told reporters in an interview Wednesday.

“We are always up for more space in the market place, maybe 5 to 10 percent. We are always looking for opportunities to boot up network presence in the market,” he said. “We are growing in excess of 200 percent in revenues from [flights originating in] the Philippines for the last 12 months. A sign of how popular the services are,” Buchanan said.

He said the government’s plan to endorse an open skies policy and efforts to privatize airports drove the carrier to expand its operations in the country.

“I think that is going to be very beneficial to the tourism in the Philippines and for the whole economy. As the market liberalizes, more competition will come in the marketplace,” Buchanan said.

He said Jetstar was considering flights to airports outside Manila, specially Caticlan Airport in Aklan and Mactan Airport in Cebu.

“Most are very excited about Caticlan because part of the airport is being upgraded to be of full service in the next few years. Cebu is also quite attractive due to a number of tourist destinations in the area,” Buchanan said. “We are very positive and supportive on government’s deregulation and privatization plans.”

Meanwhile, Buchanan said over 400 airline jobs would be brought to the Philippines, consisting mainly of call center and technical tasks from Australia.



This is like a plague. Unless we stand together now, we are all stuffed. Not just pilots; I'm talking engineers, F/A's, ground staff. Everyone.

[breakfastburrito]

why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
For the journalists following, if this is correct, this situation is ENTIRELY Qantas's making. There is an MOU between AIPA & Qantas to allow transfers into j* on J* TERMS & CONDITIONS. Yet Qantas have chosen to assign leave to pilots annual leave for the last 5 years rather than allow pilots to transfer to j* under the MOU. It is true, as small number have been able to access position at j*, yet Qantas has blocked the vast majority from being able to do so. I'm guessing that the end game is to demote pilots to reduce redundancy payouts.

Thats correct, Qantas pilots have been sitting at home for the last 5 years, all the while j* has been employing new pilots, and then Qantas claim that longhaul pilots are not competitive.

Qantas have seriously under estimated the resolve of the mainline pilots. When you strangle promotion, threaten demotion all while employing pilots, gifting routes & aeroplanes to your "internal competitor" & denying internal transfers, then prepare for business killing industrial action. The truth is, Qantas management have been at war with its pilots for the last 10 years. It makes me sick to the bottom of my stomach to see John Travolta promote the excellence of "the pilots up front" at the beginning of the safety demo for marketing spin, knowing full well that it is the same pilots management have marked for extermination.
Qantas pilots have been backed into a corner by management with only one option left, major industrial action. This is not about money, it is about a career & progression. Qantas pilots have been denied opportunity to progress their career, without the opportunity to take positions on more "competitive" contracts when there are jobs available. When people have nothing to lose, they lose it. It is entirely in managements hands to stop this madness & insanity. They, and only they choose the path forward, there is no compromise available to the pilots.

[Taildragger67]

From Balance's quote from News.com, management are already ahead.

Barry Jackson got 2 lines in, one of which being a direct quote.

The rest was ALL QF.

So guess who has got the first public shot across with respect to pay? Yep - management - saying that it's all about increased pay and undermining the icon.

The message should be simple:

- no pay rise over CPI
- job security

Maybe THAT should be on the lanyards (and big, very visible QF-red stickers on crew bags as they go around the carousel?).

They are playing the standard, these-highly-paid-glorified-bus-drivers-want-more-dosh strategy, so think up something different.

[-438]

Does Qantas show the John Trav safety demo tape on Jetconnect services. Or do they show a different one where a Travolta look-alike states he could not feel safer having a Pilot impersonating a Qantas pilot up front?

[Cost Index]

As alluded elsewhere. In todays world he who wins the P.R. battle wins. We are techincal creatures...

P.R. + Advertising + P.R. Professionals on talk shows + + + ... ASAP. :ok: Please! :sad:

[Jimothy]

If according to Qantas there is NO threat to jobs, why then won't they put their money where their mouth is and put their assurance in writing? One can only assume because they have other plans.

[John Citizen]

It is important to note that the overall wage claim from AIPA is not 2.5% pa as reported in the press. The combined effect of the annual and classification increases currently proposed by AIPA is 14.4% over three years. The combined effect of the wage claim, classification table and travel claims submitted by AIPA is a cost increase of approximately 26% over three years, equivalent to an 8.15% increase year on year.


I have to admit that I am a little bit confused here. One side says the pilots want 2.5% and the other side says its more like 8.15%. :confused:

I suppose the truth is somewhere inbetween. :confused:

Anyone care to elaborate further please. :confused:

[balance]

The maths I'm afraid are a little beyond me. Maybe I'm a simple pilot, but:

8.15% x 3 = 24.45%

So where does 26% and 14.4% come in? They can't even get these figures right? No wonder Qantas' (read: Jetstar) accounting is absolutely shonky!

[Taildragger67]

Could they be compounding the 8.15% to get 26%?

[balance]

With a CPI of approx 3%, that still doesn't work...?

[fishers.ghost]

This is not only about the pilots in the organization but also about every other employee.This is the beginning of the EBA cycle.The outcome here will affect every other EBA.just as the engineers stood their ground so too do mainline pilots.
The time has come the walrus said.Everything hinges on this.The bastards win this and its thank you linesmen,thank you ballboys.Qantas will be finished and the proud,safe tradition of Australian Aviation will go with it.
May the good be with you gentlemen.
Stand your ground.

[C207]

I am a mainline QF pilot. I have read the documents pertaining to AIPA's claims.

AIPA in summary have come up with a mechanism to stop mainline flying from disappearing to any number of entities management can dream up. They have also asked for Redundancy provisions to be put in place so that when they inevitably come we can pay the bills till we work out what to do with ourselves. We asked also for 2.5% PA.

Somehow management have calculated that all this will cost the company 8.15% pa. The pr department have spun this into we are asking for 8.15% pay rise....

Apparently Aipa offered a 10% pay cut during negotiations. But even this was thrown back in our face.

There is a real feeling amongst mainline pilots that we are already damned. Over the past ten years QF management have slowly, but steadily sidelined us . We've been told some wonderful stories along the way and unfortunately management have lost all integrity. AJ has a massive task on his hands. Im not sure what he could do to win our trust back. The fact that they will not accept Aipa's claims no matter how low we go is further evidence they have something ugly in store for us.

Ive already accepted promotion within QF has dried up. id just like to keep my Job or have provision to work within the group.

This is a turning point. What will be the shape of aviation in oz. Will our sons and daughters look to the skies and dream of being an Airline pilot? Off shore our jobs and there are bound to be more serious consequences. I find it amazing QF would do all this just to save $3 a ticket on your average sector (and yes I've done my homework). when will the government step in.

Why would the sharpest and brightest consider this industry in its present state.

[TIMA9X]

We are technical creaturestoo technical for the punter to understand when it comes to these disputes. The PR message simply is,
Qantas is being striped of its culture of excellence bit by bit in all areas of the company over a ten year period, it appears in favour of the Jetstar model, a kind of Ryanair of the Pacific. This is risky, as no one wants to see the demise of the famous Qantas brand, the very name that funded Jetstar in the first place. We believe that no Australian wants to see a vast proportion of Qantas operations moved to an Asian city.

[clotted]

Keg,
You purport to know all:
why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
Who exactly,by name or title is telling pilots this?

Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant.
Who exactly,by name or title told pilots this?

[ROH111]

Clotted; The $8m mention by Keg is in relation to the previous pre-EBA saga where jobs were threatened unless $8m was raised.

Alas, Dixon ended up some +$10m ahead.

[Mstr Caution]

My 2 Cents worth.

In November of 2010, around the time of the Qantas 90th Anniversary celebrations Joyce was quoting the following:

"we now have a strong business" (QF group)

"a sustainable portfolio of businesses which complement each other"

furthermore qantas must "focus on what we can control"

So whats happened since November 2010? EBA negotiations are now open?

The two big costs Qantas can control is labour & fuel.

Labour thru the current round of EBA negoatiations.

Fuel by means of the huge investment in the fleet renewal program. Isn't the figure something like $22US Billion (150 aircraft) over the next 10 years with (more) fuel efficient aircraft.

Meanwhile mainline have spent $140M on lounges over the last 2 years, blown $46M courtesy of the Icelandic eruptions & $400M on reconfiguring the B744 & A380 fleet to name a few.

I can't help but think the current negotiations are part of the QFuture program. If your not aware of the QFuture program it started in 2009 & is a 3 year program aimed at providing Qantas sustainable growth. By means of a $1.5 Billion revenue improvements. Achieving this by increased revenue streams & costs savings across a range of operational & non operational areas.

MC

[TIMA9X]

Is Qantas ditching unaffordable excellence? – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/02/10/is-qantas-ditching-unaffordable-excellence/)
Is Qantas ditching unaffordable excellence?

The company has persisted with a failed network concept and a failed re-equipment program and uncompetitive products and seems determined to try and solve these issues by off shoring some of its assets and costs through the device of basing Australian registered aircraft in Singapore. The small beginnings of a major shift in strategy. It closed an engine shop that was critical to keeping its aged fleet of Rolls-Royce powered 747s safe over the far southern ocean routes or across the Pacific to North America. It deals itself out of knowledge and oversight over the engines Rolls-Royce put on its flagship A380s, only to put better versions on those supplied to other A380 operators without telling Qantas a thing until one of them rips itself apart, and tears 27 holes through the wing in the process, on the November 4 flight of one its A380s from Singapore to Sydney.
At the tense meeting between itself, its strike breaker contractor and the union yesterday Qantas refuses to consider anything that might give job security to the pilots that are the best trained in the world.
Why? There are several possible reasons for this. The widely discussed possible reason is that Qantas is determined to end the employment of pilots under ‘legacy’ terms and conditions and churn them back, through Jetstar, under different agreements. The less widely discussed reason refers to nebulous statements from Jetstar about the setting up of a pilot resource from which non Australian pilots flying elsewhere on the Jetstar franchises could perform flying in Australia for Jetstar at favorable rates. No doubt like those of guest workers in the building industry employed on temporary visas.
If such an arrangement is set up for Jetstar there is no reason why it then couldn’t be applied to Qantas, what’s left of it.
The bizarre situation arises now that Qantas has a cadre of pilots who appear to have a longer term loyalty to the carrier than its management. The former are prepared to put standards ahead of remuneration if it keeps the carrier truly Australian. The latter don’t want to know about it.
Again a great piece from Ben Sandilands, says it all, I believe the correct message is getting out.

[teresa green]

For christs sake from a 89er, play this real cool. I cannot even begin to tell you whats its like to find no job. Realise that the enemy has all sorts of help and info that you don't have. Stay united, because you can be sure there are scabs. There are always scabs. I hoped that we would never see another situation like this again, at least there is no govt. intervention (not yet anyway) and good luck fella's, what you are doing is right, but don't fall into a trap like we did, and believe me, they will be setting one.

[TBM-Legend]

Greedy, self-serving people who wish to hold the Australian people [read economy] and tourism industry to ransom as Qld tries to recover from natures work should go away and hang their collective empty heads in shame....

Folks lost their lives/homes/all possessions and JOBS....

[Fliegenmong]

Nev Nobody...

"The management's idea of a good airline will be Australian registered aircraft with crews flying in from all over Asia and the Pacific to crew them for a bowl of rice and a couple of days in a cheap hotel.

They'd have it now too....if only the ALP lost the last election .. Ahh....what could have been.....sighs.....Abbot and his ilk sinking the boot in....loooxury!!.............Foreign Pilots on 457 visas..or if that doesn't work for mngmnt of the day....change the rules....hey has anyone heard BTW what the supposedly esteemed ex treasurer has to say about current banana crops???

[Fliegenmong]

Teresa green is spot on here....hold your cool.........calm under fire boys & girls.......it may come to pass that QF becomes unknown to us...a terrible shame that would be??

ld be..though we should respect that some will make fortunes out of it.....Alan Joyce has a fiduciary requirement to bend you over and accept the pineapple...and from that many shareholders do too......I've no doubt many (all) shareholders were never told "to make a small fortune in the airline industry, you need to start out with a big fortune

....I was never a fan of the idea, but just perhaps, maybe it should be a national identity again n?? Maybe a few other institutions as well....free market or at lest how to find a good fishmongre

[Capt Roo]

Oh no - here we go again. ....

do we never learn? (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-may-face-pilot-strike-as-talks-falter-20110210-1aop9.html)

[clotted]

ROH111
The $8m mention by Keg is in relation to the previous pre-EBA saga where jobs were threatened unless $8m was raised.With due respect you should read the question. The question is about who actually made the said threat and in what forum or whether it was actually made or whether it was some other words that have actually morphed into a hyped up legend.
It is not about what it relates to.

[hotnhigh]

I'll bite clotted.
This from the AIPA newlsletter to membership
22 July 2009



Excess of Pilots and Possible Redundancy Update


As you are aware, the Company has indicated that there is currently a significant excess of pilots, and they may provide pilots with 6 months redundancy notices within the next few months. AIPA is in the process of negotiating with the Company how best to handle this situation and avoid redundancies, whether that is within the provisions of the current Certified Agreement or via a variation.

The survey that is currently available to you will enable AIPA to gauge the membership’s preferences for dealing with the excess of pilots. I would strongly encourage you to participate so that your view and preferences can be heard. The survey closes at 0800 on Friday, 24 July.

AIPA’s Committee of Management will review the survey results and decide on a course of action at next Tuesday's Special COM meeting. Then there is an AIPA Special General Meeting on Wednesday, 29 July at 1000 (at St George Rowing Club, Wolli Creek, NSW) to put to the membership the proposed path that is to be taken.

If the Certified Agreement is to be varied, this can only be achieved by mutual negotiation and agreement between AIPA and the Company. The proposed change then needs to be passed by a majority vote by pilots. Pursuing these avenues takes time, possibly more time than we currently have available.

AIPA is strongly recommending and requesting that all ranks and fleets consider applying for flexilines. This is particularly pertinent to B767 F/Os and all S/Os on all fleets as they have nearly exhausted the various forms of leave available for the Company to use as a method of managing the pilot surplus.

The Company has requested that applications for flexilines effective BP266 be received by close of business tomorrow – Thursday, 23 July 2009. Flexilines are available for 90 [44]/ 110 [55] / 130 [66] / 150 [71.5] hrs for a minimum of three bid periods.


And the following weeks newsletter.
AIPA Insights 29 July 2009

THE PRESIDENT’S VIEW
Managing the Surplus: Special General Meeting Feedback
Today AIPA held a Special General Meeting at the St George Rowing Club to discuss all issues relevant to managing the surplus and possible redundancies facing our junior members in the long haul mainline operation. In this edition of AIPA Insights I will give a brief summary of the meeting.
The meeting was attended by over 200 members.
I personally invited Flight Operations management to attend the meeting, but neither Capt Peter Wilson nor Capt Dick Tobiano were able to do so.
I have informed the meeting that:
The Company has asked AIPA to find a saving of roughly $8 million to cover the cost of carriage of the pilots that may be surplus. AIPA is in the process of verifying costings of various options proposed and will be meeting with the Company this coming Friday to negotiate, in more detail, the options available to both parties. AIPA will keep the membership informed as these discussions progress and, should changes to your Certified Agreement be required, it will firstly be discussed by the Committee of Management, after which a majority vote of members would be required. AIPA and the Company are currently discussing ways of avoiding any pilot losing their job.

As you know, AIPA recently distributed a quick survey to gauge the thoughts and preferences of Qantas mainline members, and I was pleased to see a very healthy 82% of you responded. Other indications are that 93% of those surveyed thought it was positive that AIPA was working cooperatively with the Company to address the redundancy problem. What was also pleasing to hear was that 81% of the Captains and First Officers surveyed were willing to have a “collective” attitude to potential redundancies. AIPA will use this survey as guidance as we address the current issues affecting many of our members.

As you are also aware, the Company and AIPA have been encouraging long haul mainline members who can afford it, to consider taking Flexi-Lines to avoid the need for redundancies - and 247 of you have responded. I have to thank you for that - especially the Second Officers who have made a sacrifice to save your colleagues’ jobs. As AIPA and the Company discuss these issues it must be pointed out that if a collective solution is agreed upon, those who have taken Flexi-Lines will be given an opportunity to resume a full line.

Many great ideas in addressing the current surplus have been received and I thank those of you who have sent ideas forward and encourage more to be forthcoming. Some options being considered include deferring some or all of the 15 August long haul increment and reducing MGH across the board to come up with the savings. These options would require a variation to the Long Haul Certified Agreement and, as indicated previously, a vote of the membership. AIPA will keep you informed as this develops.


Sorry about the depth, but as you can see Qantas mainline pilots have always been proactive in their attempts to help when they can.
And what was that payout to Geoff again?????:ugh::ugh:

[clotted]

hotnhigh:

Less than two years ago Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant.


does not equal
The Company has asked AIPA to find a saving of roughly $8 million to cover the cost of carriage of the pilots that may be surplus. AIPA is in the process of verifying costings of various options proposed and will be meeting with the Company this coming Friday to negotiate, in more detail, the options available to both parties. AIPA will keep the membership informed as these discussions progress and, should changes to your Certified Agreement be required, it will firstly be discussed by the Committee of Management, after which a majority vote of members would be required.

I'm told nothing came of this.

I have also been told this happened.

the Company and AIPA have been encouraging long haul mainline members who can afford it, to consider taking Flexi-Lines to avoid the need for redundancies - and 247 of you have responded.

[Keg]

clotted. I'm not going into specifics here. If you can get a hold of past memos to crew then that may be a good starting point.

Additionally, given the number of flight crew briefings held in 2009 and since then the time the statements can be attributed to any number of management people on multiple occasions.

Nothing came of it because flight crew made the $8 million in savings without needing a 'variation' to the award. :rolleyes:

[clotted]

Keg:
I'm not going into specifics here. Because you don't know?
Your above posts are full of assertions and short on verifiable fact. If you could say, with your hand on your heart, I, Keg heard XX make this statement/threat at or on or in YYY ,that would be OK.

flight crew made the $8 million in savings without needing a 'variation' to the award.
So that I can check out what I am being told, can you detail what these savings were, apart from flexi-lines.
Thanks

[blueloo]

I think most of the savings came from 767 crews having the location of the allowances randomly changed in airports (along with varying opening hours to keep us guessing) and transit times minimised so they couldnt collect them!

[adsyj]

Clotted

You were just provided with the answer to the question you asked.

I agree with Keg there is no reason to provide specifics to non mainline pilots on an internet forum, The information is freely available to pilots.

I was on Flexi line and and SO.

What is your agenda. This is bloody serious and is a genuine direct threat to my career.

I would appreciate it if you don't clutter the thread by trying to engage pilots in petty and inane posts in the midst of a real threat to our jobs.

[OneDotLow]

Clotted :

why are Captains and First Officers being told that demotions are 'on the table' later this year when assigned leave runs out?
Who exactly,by name or title is telling pilots this?

QF Chief Pilot, within the last week. Up to 150 were his figures. AIPA then told him if he was going to threaten to do it, then do it right now and prove that he is not just sabre rattling. His back-pedalling response was (paraphrasing) "Well, we are considering it and that is what is in store for the future when leave runs out".

Making pilots redundant at the same time as they are asking for job security would not be a good look, methinks.

Qantas pilots were told to make $8 million worth of savings or pilots would be made redundant.

QF Chief pilot back in 2009. The savings were made through flexi lines and donation of annual leave by the pilots for the pilots.

['holic]

BrainClotted,
The Company has asked AIPA to find a saving of roughly $8 million to cover the cost of carriage of the pilots that may be surplus.Read this. Reread this. Get your kids to read it and explain it to you.

If you are asking did AJ ring me and make this statement, no he did not. That redundancies were threatened if we didn't come up with the savings is not in question, by either side. If you had access to Qrewroom, you would see posts by management pilots that verify this.

If you want to go into the forensics of it, why don't you start a new thread. You could title it 'The Decline of English Comprehension"

[PammyAnderson]

I chatted to several Long Haul Q pilots (friends) yesterday. Both said they would happily "vote" to strike if they had too however admitted they would not actually do it after watching the 89 debacle. They also said that would just give Qantas management an excuse to increase the Jetstar hiring immediately and possibly take over more of mainline quicker than what is happening now.

And here lies the problem. Threatening strike is one thing, actually doing it is another. Even worse though, is what to do when management may be even hoping you do strike???

Yes it may cause short term pain "in their eyes" but they may also view it as long term gain for their big plan. Yes I really think they are dumb enough to have that attitude. So be careful what you wish for guys in terms of strike. Will everyone go through with it? and will it really help your cause or theirs?

Good luck to you all. Tis a hard one.

[Mstr Caution]

Clotted.

The company held briefings around the network, at which fleet manager DT stated at the Melbourne Hilton Hotel (2009) the company was looking at:

1. 160 excess mainline pilots
2. Imminent Mainline redundancies on B744 & A380 S/O ranks
3. B767 F/O reduction in numbers (30) to A380 S/O

& would seek to avoid redundancies by:

1. Offering Voluntary Redundancies to Senior Crews
2. Delay 4% pay increase or take 2% now & delay the second 2%
3. Negotiating any other outcome with AIPA.

MC.

['holic]

'89 gets a mention in a few posts. I think it needs to be pointed out that if you take PIA, it is illegal for your employer to sack you.

[clotted]

The company held briefings around the network, at which fleet manager DT stated at the Melbourne Hilton Hotel (2009) the company was looking at:

1. 160 excess mainline pilots
2. Imminent Mainline redundancies on B744 & A380 S/O ranks
3. B767 F/O reduction in numbers (30) to A380 S/O

& would seek to avoid redundancies by:

1. Offering Voluntary Redundancies to Senior Crews
2. Delay 4% pay increase or take 2% now & delay the second 2%
3. Negotiating any other outcome with AIPA.

MC.

That's the answer I was after. That accords with the AIPA newsletter quote. It also puts that part of the subject in a sensible rather than threatening context.

To all the others trying to win the point by shouting down: you'll need more than that to win the fight that has just been picked on your behalf!

I would appreciate it if you don't clutter the thread by trying to engage pilots in petty and inane posts in the midst of a real threat to our jobs.

adsyj,
you can put your head between your knees and contemplate the view from that position as far as I am concerned.

[OneDotLow]

'holic :

'89 gets a mention in a few posts. I think it needs to be pointed out that if you take PIA, it is illegal for your employer to sack you.

It is also worth mentioning that Protected Industrial Action does not necessarily mean strike! There are many other forms of protected industrial action that would be undertaken before a strike was declared. Fair Work Australia will determine if what AIPA has in mind is legal or not, and AIPA will advise its members accordingly, so that they all remain within the law.

[The Guru]

For those who were not in the Brisbane crew room last year "$8M is not very much in the big scheme of things"....Bruce Buchanan, CEO Jetstar.:(

Referring to the additional cost of having to retrofit aircraft seating, after his management team decided not to order reclining seats in the recent A320s so that a further three seats could be squeezed in to make it 180Y.:=

The management team experience across the Qantas Group speaks for itself!:uhoh:

Think carefully,

[Bigdog01]

Just a lowly engineer making comment.
If you wish to see the direction QF management is heading in fruitful negotiations with staff, look at how they are handling the Sunstate engineers EBA.
I think all staff are proud of working for Qantas and will do or have done anything in the past to support the brands reputation.
As it panes out AJ could possibly pay everyone's pay rise with his bonus if the group makes a profit in these hard & difficult times. Will he offer it up to improve relations, could he cut the spin doctors pay to improve moral. The consultants get paid irrespective of results.
Another engagement survey to see where they can improve - didn't they like the results of the last 2. Haven't seen any significant improvement in management performance to date.

I will continue to support Qantas the brand by not leaving and I will employ a famous quote :
" keep the bastards honest "

[Tankengine]

PIA will not end up in 1989.
For those of you you who don't know/remember Qantas longhaul pilots were not directly involved in 1989.
1966 was the last Qantas pilot strike, this situation is more like that, EXCEPT we now have PIA.:ok:

Once all the sabre rattling dies down it will boil down to secure jobs/ or war.:ugh:

It is not about huge pay rises!:ugh:

[QuadRant1]

The only thing that makes working for this company great is the great people working at the coal face.

I think we all understand the pressures faced by the airline industry and are not actually asking for that much.
However, management and their accountants will seemingly never understand how an airline actually operates at the grass roots level due to the fact that they are only interested in feathering their own nests and are blinded in their pursuit of bonuses.
It seems they are only there for a short stint anyway and when they leave, we who have made this industry our life being both professional and dedicated, are left holding the **** end of the stick.

The only way to break their stare is to do it with a bat. Which is unfortunate. However if one where to cave in to their spin, where would our salarys and conditions be now.

No prizes for quessing! Don't be scared to stand up for your rights.

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Hopefully a reputable journalist in Australia (wishful thinking but it could happen:rolleyes:) will ask the question of Qantas management (Joyce or any of his spinners) to give a breakdown of this claim of 26%???

If he is adamant about the figure please ask him if he would put his job on the line (resign) if it is proven to be misleading.

It seems a global trend that Execs come out with all sorts of rubbish with no conviction and are rarely put under the spotlight for misleading the public. Just look at the banking sector re fees.

Question Mr Joyce, taking your family on staff travel in which the employee pays (and on standby, not confirmed like yourself and partner) isn't exactly a payrise is it???? Honestly??

Maybe this time the GD apprentice has bitten off more than he can chew.

The Mainline pilots have nothing to loose this time round as most feel its already gone.

[Captain Dart]

Perhaps if QANTAS long haul pilots had been just a little more 'involved' during 'that year' things would be different now...:suspect:

[OneDotLow]

Captain Dart :

Perhaps if QANTAS long haul pilots had been just a little more 'involved' during 'that year' things would be different now

A few facts :


I sit between one third and halfway up the seniority list at Qantas.
I am an F/O on the B767.
I was not a cadet.
I am not overly young for my position.


To put it in perspective :


I was in year 3 at primary school finger painting, learning how to spell and construct sentences during "that year".


Now take into account the number of 'A' pilots (ex Australian Airlines) above me on the list, and that really doesn't leave a huge number of pilots who stood by and did not get 'involved' in that year. By no means does it represent the majority of current QF pilots.

So do you think it is about time to bury the hatchet and get over who did and did not support you back then? Should we not be looking at what is happening NOW and what we can do to stop this nation's aviation industry from disappearing altogether?

[Capt Kremin]

ODL.... well said. Captain Dart.... FFS get over it!:ugh:

[scam sniffer]

One Dot and Kremin

With respect, I think you miss the thrust of Dart's comment.

He was not casting aspersions on the current Q LH drivers.

He was making an observation that all those years ago, had the Q LH guys realised the implications of what was going on and joined with the domestics in a show of fraternal solidarity opposing outrageous treatment (much as now), THEN we would not have this mess to clean up now.

Interesting isn't it, that Old meadow is up to his arms in it AGAIN.
SS

[teresa green]

Of course its not 89 Onedotlow, but the consequences can be similar. Like not have a job. At least we were able to find employment OS, it would be far more difficult these days. Also don't rely on the Govt. to support you simply because its a Labor Govt. and supposed to support the "workers", we found out the hard way that their capitalist mates were more important. No, they will support QF if it ever comes to that, and I certainly hope it does not. Play it real cool fella's do not end up like us. Nobody wins.

[Anthill]

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

No, no Quandrant, you have it all wrong!

It is better to live on your feet, than to die on your knees! :ok:

[balance]

They said there is no threat to mainline jobs, right?

Recent media release from QF PR:

'SIR EDMUND HILLARY' JOINS TRANS-TASMAN FLEET Qantas unveiled a new Boeing 737-800, named Sir Edmund Hillary at Wellington Airport this week, honouring the achievements of the legendary explorer and mountaineer. The aircraft will be operated by Jetconnect on trans-Tasman services. Two further B737-800s will join the trans-Tasman fleet later this month, named Abel Tasman, after the first European to discover the south island of New Zealand, and William Pickering, a New Zealander who made a significant contribution to space exploration.

Flying 737-800's that were designated to go to mainline, and fly mainline routes, of which this is one. Operated by pilots wearing Qantas uniforms, purporting to be QF pilots, but being paid half the pay.

Yeah boys, your jobs are safe. :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Capt Kremin]

89 has NOTHING to do with the current situation. Anyone who thinks it does has not moved with the times.

Provided you comply with the laws of the land (something that didn't happen in 1989), you cannot be sacked if you engage in lawful Protected Industrial Action.

And no union leader in his right mind would EVER advocate resigning as an industrial tactic.

That is not to say that an employer cannot attempt to escalate a dispute to get a union to do something silly. That is the main risk. But provided cool heads remain, PIA remains the ONLY way a workforce can get its point across in times like these.

[teresa green]

As I said Capt. Kremin, stay cool. We would HATE you blokes end up like us. And as I said, no job is not funny. All strikes bring lessons, learn from us. And beware of traps, they are out there. Slowly slowly catchee monkey. Believe it.

[Rashid Bacon]

TG, you were one of the lucky ones to get jobs overseas.

I was young then and did not have the experience to get a job elsewhere.

Unemployment, bankruptcy, divorce, serious personal issues - you name it, we experienced it all over the next few years, while you and others had a job and an income.

These are the real stories of 'that' era and not some of the cock and bull stuff we were fed in union meetings and mailouts. :mad:

The message here is to ensure your executive does things properly this time. Don't be railroaded by self interest groups that may well be able to get work elsewhere if this falls over.

This is serious stuff - If someone wants you take industrial action, think very carefully and intuitively. Be informed from as many sources as possible.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

No one is planning any mass resignations. All action that will be taken will be done under protected industrial action within the laws of FWA.

In 1989 the media was controlled by Ables and Hawke during the dispute and the pilots never really had a chance. Today news comes thick and fast from so many directions (journo's scout everywhere for a story) that a few execs in what has now become unfortunately a second tier business (of there own doing) wont be able to contain all the spotfires set by the loyal QF staff.

Australians are sick of the big bad bully corporations.

So sit back, grab a beer and enjoy the end of Mr Joyce's short QF career. :ok:

[Captain Dart]

Onedot, some of your colleagues may not even have been gleams in their fathers' eyes during 'that year', but QF International pilots accepted 'encrustations' (ex-Australian Airlines) onto your seniority list when Australian was absorbed by QANTAS. You may have flown with some of them.

If push comes to shove will these fellows stick with their 'mates' this time? And I bet that a few ex-Ansett individuals in Jetstar would have no compunction in operating QF sectors during a stoush.

[Going Boeing]

QF pilots only flew 4 additional services during that dispute and they were flown with the approval of the AFAP as they were "hardship cases". All the other flights were normal Qantas scheduled services - not strike breaking flights.

QF pilots did not have a dispute with their management (at that time) so why would they impose hardship on the airline and it's passengers by joining the domestic pilots on strike. Hawke did try to bully QF management into flying strike breaking services but AIPA forcefully told management that QF pilots would not fly any additional services.

The domestic pilots had the moral support of QF pilots at all stages of the dispute.
:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Tempo]

They have already lost my vote. Based on the key Duty Travel Trade off. Unforgivable.

Oh I am sorry....I thought I was employed to fly aircraft not sit in First Class sippping on red and watching movies.

Seriously....for the majority of crew....this is the last thing on their mind. There is no paxing if there are no jobs!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Captain Dart]

Okay Boeing, I said 'domestic passengers' not 'domestic sectors' :rolleyes:; I should know; I met some when attending a QF interview (AN management were also on the aircraft, travelling MEL-SYD). To keep the peace I'll edit my post.

And the 'moral support' was greatly appreciated.

[OhForSure]

To put the '89 issue (clearly unrelated) to rest and return to the topic of this thread; would anybody be able to explain how the combined seniority list would work? I believe this to be a critical issue, as it directly relates to the primary thing AIPA is asking for in the new EBA.

If somebody starts at QLink as has been suggested, how do they move say, to the 737? Would they have to become an S/O first? How would QLink get any captains? Surely nobody from Jetstar or Mainline would take a paycut to come back to fly props around... would they? The QLink F/Os would all move on to Jetstar or Mainline.

By no means am I being critical of the concept. Quite the opposite; I'm all for it. However, as it appears to be one of the primary considerations of the EBA negotiation and the title of this thread, I think it deserves some discussion.

One thing a common seniority list does certainly accomplish is unity amongst us all. We WILL all have to take an interest in each others EBAs and conditions, as we are all potential stakeholders and we may find ourselves working elsewhere in the group one day.

If anyone has any information regarding this I would be extremely interested to hear it. PM is fine if necessary.

[John Citizen]

Surely nobody from Jetstar or Mainline would take a paycut to come back to fly props around... would they?

Make the cadets do it, like we all else had to (fly props), so that they can get some "real" flying experience :p

[Capt Kremin]

OFS, I think it would operate as a W list. Say, if you joined Qlink you would have first priority over any Qlink promotional slot subject to seniority in Qlink. Each pilot in each company would have the same priority, subject to seniority, over a slot in that particular company.

To take a slot in any other subsidiary would then depend on datal seniority, after the pilots in that subsidiary have had first crack.

This means that a QF FO could have a JQ Command, but only after the FO's in JQ who were there on the effective date of the W list, have had a shot first.

[OhForSure]

Krem: Thanks mate. I follow you in most of what you're saying here.

BUT:

To take a slot in any other subsidiary would then depend on datal seniority, after the pilots in that subsidiary have had first crack.

By this token, opportunities to transfer between codes would be few and far between. Promotions are almost always going to be able to be filled internally. Say if 20 JQ commands come up and JQ guys get first dibs, they will always be able to fill these spots internally. 20 JQ F/Os will unquestionably put their hands up, right? Therefore Mainline/QLink guys miss out.

If QF need 30 737 F/Os, there will always be 30 QF S/Os willing to take the gig, therefore no hope for QLink or JQ F/Os.

If internal promotions are always considered first (and outside of "Group" seniority), then it would be rare not to fill promotions internally wouldn't it?

I may have missed something though! :}

[Capt Kremin]

OFS, initially yes, you are correct. But it works both ways in limiting the access that pilots from other subsidiaries have to slots that a pilot rightfully has in their own company.

After a few years the situation irons itself out. The Qantas Y list initially protected members of the different hauls from "poaching" of their slots by pilots on the other haul. Now, most QF pilots have joined below the Y, and if their seniority is sufficient, they can bid for a slot in either long or short haul without fear that someone in the other haul has priority.

Seniority is the only criteria in most cases now. I believe all A list pilots have seniority for a 767 command now if they wanted one and there is one available.

[teresa green]

QF pilots gave us all the support they could. And any foreign pilot who thought a lift on A QF flight deck was a cert. soon found out it was not. We were grateful for their support. That was 20 years ago, and lessons learnt. Calm fella's calm. Today is today, careful, careful. Slowly, slowly.

[Captain.Que]

Pilots take protected industrial action.Eventually management proclaims business unviable and is put into administration.Then reborn as a new company Want your job back ?Reapply but on new lower wages and conditions
Happened in the States
Can it happen here?

[astroboy55]

i think you'll find any action taken will be protected. The media is throwing the word 'strike' around. The pilots and union are not!

[breakfastburrito]

Captain.Que, this exact scenario has been rattling around in my brain for a while. The reason, quite simple, the Qantas Sale Act. With the apparent blind eye being turned to the sale act/j* international operation, this is obviously the game plan.

Although counter-intuitive, I think we have seen enough to say with a reasonable degree of confidence this is the end game. But as always, a scapegoat was needed, it is now obvious who is being lined up to deal the death blow, and carry the blame. Let the record show that management have held customers, staff & shareholders in contempt for the last 10 years. Management have made every effort to destroy the international operation. Deliberately starving it of capital, waging war against the staff & hobbling the premium product with old aircraft, & uncompetitive fares. It has destroyed it to justify its destruction.

Counter-intuitive? Why would they destroy the "Qantas brand". Well, thats the clever bit, destroy the "Qantas International brand", but domestically it will survive. Qantas is an iconic brand within Australia, whilst recognizable internationally, it not of same commercial benefit.

So, j* will be the international vehicle, free to offshore, engaging in regulatory arbitrage that will allow it to avoid any serious scrutiny. It will operate as a conglomerate of franchised business. It will be free of the Qantas Sale Act, engaging in ownership arrangements that Qantas International could not.

Qantas domestic & Qlink will continue to operate, as a major profit centres, j* international will go upmarket, however the B787 delays have obviously caused a major timing issue with the process. I suspect management wanted to wait until the deliveries started prior to initiation of the "final solution".

Management, have killed Qantas, in spite of the efforts of the staff to save it. RIP big fella.

[OhForSure]

Why don't the union just ask for salary increases at CPI and nothing more. Make it cost neutral to the company. If the only other thing AIPA really ask for is job security and progression (combined seniority list & subsidiary EBA protection), there should be no argument by the company that this is anything sinister on the part of the pilots.

I mean, how pathetic would a company look if they were to say "Sorry ladies and gentlemen of Australia, but the only reason we went out of business was because the pilots wanted to keep their jobs...". Every man and his dog would plainly see that this was another mismanaged Aussie icon, killed off by corporate greed.

[Oriana]

Every man and his dog would plainly see that this was another mismanaged Aussie icon, killed off by corporate greed.

And then they would change the channel.:hmm:

[breakfastburrito]

OhForSure, AIPA could sit there and ask for nothing. Management will simply work around this through threatening demotions & redundancies (they have already floated the balloon). Management need to provoke a dispute, and know full well that the destruction of career progression is sufficient leverage, if applied over an extended period of time. As I said, timing is the problem for the company now as they don't have replacement aircraft (B787) ready. I believe this turn of events (PIA) has caught them off-guard.

[parabellum]

Much as I like the airline QANTAS doesn't help itself at times. My wife takes a trip to SIN, from MEL, for a few days approx. once a year, previously too easy, QF9 and QF10, fare in the region of $1000.00.

Tried last year out bound they wanted $845.00, OK,we ticked that but they said the return flight was not possible with our selected outbound! WTF I asked myself. We tried several combinations and it all boiled down to them wanting us to do one sector on Jetstar, either via SYD or ADL and in one case a five hour wait on the ground in Darwin! A 13 hour flight!!!

Went to the Singapore web site, three direct non-stop flights a day, take your pick, $947.00 return, all done in five minutes, tickets printed, the lot, seats selected too.

It is QF Commercial and Marketing that need to get their act together, they have lost our business and this year it is 2 x Business class to LHR and return.

[Race Bannon]

KKR is a private equity company.
Guess who is an advisor.
Leigh Clifford
Richard Leigh Clifford, AO has been a Senior Adviser of Australia operations at Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. since January 2009.
Mr. Clifford served as the Chief Executive Officer of Rio Tinto PLC and Rio Tinto Ltd. from 2000 to May 1, 2007.
A Mining Engineer, He has held various roles in The Rio Tinto Group's coal and metalliferous operations since joining in 1970, including Managing Director of Rio Tinto Limited and Chief Executive of the Energy group. He also served ... as Chief Executive Officer of Rio Tinto Group. from 2000 to May 2007.
Mr. Clifford served as a Marketing Manager at Kembla Coal & Coke Pty. Limited. Mr. Clifford has extensive experience of managing a business that operates in a number of global regions.
He has been Chairman of the Board of Qantas Airways Limited since November 14, 2007. Mr. Clifford serves as the Chairman of the Board at International Council on Mining and Metals. Mr. Clifford has been a Director of Qantas Airways Limited since August 9, 2007. He served as a Director of Barclays Bank PLC and its holding Barclays PLC from October 1, 2004 to September 30, 2010. He serves as a Director at Murdoch Childrens Research Institute. Mr. Clifford served as an Executive Director of Rio Tinto PLC from 1994 to 2007 and served as a Director of Rio Tinto Limited from 1995 to 2007. He served as a Director of Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold Inc. from 2000 to May 2004 and previously served as its Director from September 1995 to August 1997. He served as Chairman of the Coal Industry Advisory Board of the International Energy Agency from 1998 to 2000. He was appointed to the Bechtel Board of Counsellors in May 2007. Mr. Clifford holds Bachelor of Engineering from the University of Melbourne as a Mining Engineer and gained a Master of Engineering Science from the University of Melbourne.

[roger_ramjet]

Parabellum, I have to agree and have had the same issue getting to London and return.
SIA has better schedules (lunchtime departures from Singas and evening arrivals into LHR), free stopovers in Singas, seats allocated online (great since we need the bassinet for an infant) and priced to beat QF. Nice, cool and quiet A330s, 2-4-2 seating (no weird/drunk stranger in the third seat) and 400 channels of IFE.

No wonder QF's international market share is slipping.

[ejectx3]

The Union are asking for less than CPI!

All the rest of the company produced media crap is just that...spin.

AIPA has even offered a 10% pay cut to ensure Qantas aircraft are crewed by Qantas mainline pilots.

Aipa are not asking for Jetstar to be crewed by Qantas pilots as the media are reporting.

Qantas is refusing to ensure we are not sidelined by cheap foreign labour even with the offer of a pay cut.

[gobbledock]

Why don't the union just ask for salary increases at CPI and nothing more.

QF dont even want to pay the CPI, which in itself as a benchmark is a croc. CPI average = 3%. Go and take the last 12 month period and tell me how much or by what percentage your rates have risen, fuel/food/services/electricity/water and pretty much anything else you put your hand in your pocket for has risen and then tell me if CPI is a good indicator ?
Furthermore, there is not one airline CEO or politician whose wage has gone up at the CPI index or less, they are priveledged to receive rises in excess of 20-50% on average as a minimun. I am starting to think the only way to get any action happenning in this country at any level is do what they have done Egypt....

[OhForSure]

By NO means am I suggesting that CPI increases are all that pilots are worth. Couldn't be further from the truth. I'm talking about winning the PR battle, which is how industrial wars are won and lost these days. :rolleyes:

[division1]

I am starting to think the only way to get any action happenning in this
country at any level is do what they have done Egypt....

Yes it is sad that this is the only way the little guy can get things done.
Stick together and trust the union to co-ordinate proceedings.
Like someone nicely pointed out during the lames dispute,
if you don't quite have the stomach for it,
wait in the car till daddy finishes what he needs to do.

[TIMA9X]

Qantas, pilots to resume pay talks | News | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Qantas-and-pilots-to-resume-negotiations-E3746?OpenDocument&src=hp9)

Unions will meet with Qantas management again this week to try to thrash out a deal over pay and conditions for international pilots,
The pilots want a 2.5 per cent annual pay rise and are demanding job security under a new enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA).
Qantas has previously said the wage push, along with claims for staff travel, would cost about eight per cent year on year, although the union disputed this.
"We believe there's errors in the way they have calculated it," Mr Jackson told reporters outside the Melbourne meeting.
A Qantas spokesman said the calculations were reached by taking into account the cost to the company of the wage claim, requests for improved travel benefits and reclassification of wages.
Good to see the door is suddenly open again.... trust things will be more civil this time,
reclassification of wages.What is all that about? The spin from QF is annoying!

[Capt Kremin]

The reclassification is a quasi fleet pay claim. Same rates for A380/744 and A330/767. It also means that the pay rate for any new aircraft is automatically set according to payload. I think the 787 would come in at the A330/767 rate but haven't seen the details.

The other important thing to remember is that these rates would be phased in over time in a schedule that hasn't been agreed to... so it is difficult to see how QF can make any claim on how much it will cost.

The other real important thing to remember is that the A380/A330 guys will only get the 2.5% p.a. The dying fleets, the 767 and the -400 will come up according to the schedule, but as those aircraft leave the fleet and the pilots move on to the Airbus aircraft then they will not get a pay rise for the promotion unless they can go 767 to the A380.

[TIMA9X]

would be phased in over time in a schedule that hasn't been agreed to... so it is difficult to see how QF can make any claim on how much it will cost.Agree, reclassification really is not relevant for this time, a firm delivery date for the B787 (as of today) is still far from certain.
I think the 787 would come in at the A330/767 rate but haven't seen the details.The way I see it everyone's seniority will be bogged down with "red taped big words". I believe AJ should agree to the 2.5% increase for pilots as a good will gesture considering the fleet planning delays which has nothing to do with the pilots, it is a management problem. They seem to be trying to confuse the two issues.