Casa PPl Flying In Jaa Land

[tismee]

Hi , i am the holder of an Australian (casa) PPL , 82 hours TT.
Can i fly in UK and JAA airspace with this license without any conversion?
Anyone with experience or knowledge on this ?

[B4aeros]

Australian (casa) PPL Valid for non-commercial VFR in UK. Don't know about the rest of JAA-land.

[Mark1234]

Correct - and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, though they probably will try. Obviously that's as long as you're paperwork is valid (AFR, Medical, etc). I would however suggest that you'll want to check out radio procedure (a bit different), and take a look at the airspace 'problem', depending on where you fly/flew in aus, and where you intend to fly in the UK, it's a very different ball game. Practically you'll probably want to do a bit more than a quick checkout - I'm a casa PPL ex melbourne, now converted to JAA land and a UK PPL for whatever that's worth.

[Ryan5252]

It is my (limited) understanding you can fly aircraft registered by an ICAO country in that country's national airspace. In practical terms you can fly a G-Reg in UK airspace with your ICAO licence. You cannot (and probably don't want to anyway) cross an FIR international boundary.

[BackPacker]

tismee, in this particular case there is no "JAA-land". Or even "EASA-land". JAA is, amongst other things, about getting common norms for Flight Crew Licenses. But that doesn't incorporate norms for validation of foreign ICAO or non-ICAO licenses.

So you're dealing with individual countries, not all of JAA/EASA/EU/Europe as a whole.

As far as the UK is concerned, well, the UK ANO implicitly validates any ICAO PPL (and up) for non-commercial VFR flight on a G-reg. This means the following:

There is no formal validation proces. Just having your ICAO PPL with you is sufficient.
You are limited to non-commercial, VFR flights only. Flight at night in the UK is, practically speaking, an IFR exercise so can't be done. Exceptions are Night VFR flights within certain control zones but that's not very practical for getting around. So for all practical purposes forget night flying.
Under ICAO rules, if you fly a G-reg with a license that's rendered valid under the laws of wherever the G-reg is registered (indeed, the UK), you can take that combination anywhere in the world. So you can fly a G-reg on an ICAO PPL worldwide.


As far as other countries are concerned, well, you need to look at the laws of the country involved. Let us know what your plans are, and maybe someone 'round here knows the specifics.

[Ryan5252]

Under ICAO rules, if you fly a G-reg with a license that's rendered valid under the laws of wherever the G-reg is registered (indeed, the UK), you can take that combination anywhere in the world. So you can fly a G-reg on an ICAO PPL worldwide.

Help me understand this better BackPacker. What your saying is, if I fly an aircraft using a licence which is rendered valid by the state to which the aircraft is registered, I can fly aircraft registered to that state anywhere in the world? (Assuming this is an ICAO agreement?)

Never knew that! I have a theory to try and learn 3 new things about aviation everyday so that's one off list for today! :ok:

Cheers
Ryan

[BackPacker]

I took a bit of a shortcut but that's about the gist of it.

I'm sure somebody better versed in the exact ICAO recommendations comes along, but in general, yes, if you fly an aircraft registered in state XYZ on a license either issued, or rendered valid by state XYZ, then that combo should be accepted for worldwide flight. At least that's the ICAO recommendation but it's up to each and every individual country to actually implement it.

Of course all sorts of limitations apply. You cannot run scheduled (airline) routes for instance. You've got to abide by airspace limitations. Crew visa might throw a spanner in the works. It doesn't apply to (ex-)military aircraft. The country you're flying in may have filed a difference from ICAO, or not contract to ICAO at all. And so on and so forth. But within Western Europe, for VFR private flight, this seems to work just fine.

One note however. The UK seems to be the only (or at the very least, one of the very few) that has an *implicit* validation in the ANO. Other countries do an *explicit* validation and the result of that process is that you have a piece of paper that says your license is rendered valid. So if you show up at some airport in, say, Italy, and you get ramp-checked, you might have some trouble explaining to the local offical (in Italian) that, yes, indeed, your CASA license is valid for flight on a G-reg without any additional paperwork. You might want to print out the relevant bits of the ANO and take them with you just for that occasion.

[BackPacker]

Okay, here's the relevant bit of the ANO:

Deeming a non-United Kingdom flight crew licence valid
62.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), paragraph (2) applies to any licence which authorises the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft and is granted—
(a) under the law of a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence; or
(b) under the law of a relevant overseas territory.
(2) Subject to paragraph (4), for the purposes of this Part, such a licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order.
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply to such a licence if it authorises the holder to act as a student pilot only.
(4) A licence deemed valid under paragraph (2) does not entitle the holder—
(a) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work or on any flight for which the holder receives remuneration for services as a member of the flight crew; or
(b) in the case of a pilot’s licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.
(5) A JAA licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, a licence rendered valid under this Order.

(ANO 2009 part 6; my bold.)

Now if somebody can paste in the appropriate ICAO recommendation, we're done. But I don't think these can be found online.:confused:

[BillieBob]

Article 33 of the Chicago Convention (http://www.icao.int/icaonet/arch/doc/7300/7300_9ed.pdf):
Certificates of airworthiness and certificates of competency and licenses issued or rendered valid by the contracting State in which the aircraft is registered, shall be recognized as valid by the other contracting States, provided that the requirements under which such certificates or licences were issued or rendered valid are equal to or above the minimum standards which may be established from time to time pursuant to this Convention.

[IO540]

Nearly all countries disregard that stuff though

[tismee]

Thanks for the responses. To be more specific about what my plans are -
I want to hire an A/C and do some flying , and get a bit of experience flying in UK, N.I , and ROI airspace. Possibly a trip to France or Holland .

I made a phone call to the CAA last year to query this , they told me i could fly there on the license , but not in controlled airspace ?

[B4aeros]

I made a phone call to the CAA last year to query this , they told me i could fly there on the license , but not in controlled airspace?You won't be allowed to fly in Class A because that's IFR & the automatic validation is limited to VFR only.

The only other controlled airspace you're likely to come across is Class D & of course it's the local ATC who will give you permission (via radio), not the CAA.

edit:
Just remembered there's some Class E around Belfast. I don't think that should be a problem either, check with a local.

[BackPacker]

In that case you might also want to read up on something called the 'GAR form' (General Aviation Report).

Essentially this allows you to fly in and out of the airspaces you mentioned without going through a customs airport - on the UK side that is. You fill in the form, fax it to the proper authorities between 24 and 4 hours in advance (details are on the back, and the recipients and lead times depend on where you're coming from and going to) and if they have any interest in you, they will meet you upon arrival.

[Ryan5252]

Just remembered there's some Class E around Belfast. I don't think that should be a problem either, check with a local.

Class E around Belfast starts at 2000' to FL105 (two sections start at 3500' on the NE and SE area of the city). Transition is never a problem but even in the unlikely event you are denied you can either go under or around.

PS the GAR is little hassle and includes mostly information contained in your FP. The only thing to watch out for is you need both your passport number and that of your passengers.

Ryan