Light aircraft = unsafe ?

[Rex_Omar]

You just have to look at teletext or the internet on a Sunday evening and you will see that at least one light aircraft has crashed over the weekend, usually with fatal results.

This happens week in and week out.

I am planning to go for my PPL next summer, but with all these disaters happening, I am not so sure.

Are light aircraft unsafe? Or are these disaster mainliy due to pilot error?

[This message has been edited by Rex_Omar (edited 04 December 2000).]

[AquaPlane]

As a PPL'er myself, I'd say that the vast majority are due to pilot error (flying into poor weather, disorientation, not checking for fuel contamination etc) and the very few remainders can be split between medical problems (pilot has heart attack at controls etc) and improper / poor / incomplete maintenance.

Feel free to flame or toast as you see fit, as all this is IMHO of course.

Aq

[newswatcher]

Best not go to the NTSB site then:

<A HREF="http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm</A>

During the last 2 weeks, there have been at least 50 incidents in the States involving either Cessna or Piper aircraft.

Difficult to compare travel incidents without knowing incidents per number of trips made, or mileage covered, but since there are on average 10 people a day killed on UK roads, guess your PPL may prove a bonus!

[autothrottle]

My dear chap,

Just hold on a second.I think you may be exaggerating a tiny bit.In the world at the moment the General Aviation fleet flies,on average,10 million miles before a fatal accident occurs.
Accidents in aircraft make the news because they do happen so rarely.People are killed every single day on our roads,but does that stop any of us from driving,I think not.Please put it in context.If you read the accident occurence leaflet(you get with GASIL)you will see that most accidents are in fact Human error.I emphasise human because they are mistakes made by humans not just pilots.Most of these are survivable accidents possibly caused by pilots not being aware of their limitations or indeed the limitations of their aircraft.It IS worrying when you see the number of pilots who DO NOT do a load sheet before flying or ,if they are flying into a performance limiting strip ,negate to calculate the required take-off run required for a safe ,within limits ,take-off.
I recommend you research a little bit,find a good school and read this web page.Flying is fun,but to be safe requires dedication and professionalism,whatever your level of flying.
e-mail me and I will point you in the direction of some info that will change your mind!

cheers AUTOTHROTTLE

[what next]

Hi!

My answer would be: Not 'Light aircraft = unsafe' but 'A few (out of very many!) light aircraft pilots are unsafe at times'.
A properly serviced light aircraft is as safe as a properly maintained airliner - as long as it is operated within its limitations and those of the pilot. Which means that it will be up to you as future pilot to make the whole business a little bit safer!

If you get proper instruction (ask as many people as you can about their experience with flying schools!) and find a reasonable approach towards flying for yourself, than flying light aircraft should be as safe as driving a car. Maybe less dangerous, because there are not so many drunken idiots up there.

enjoy, max

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Some others have touched on this, but IMHO one of the attractions of flying (anything) is that it is as safe as you want to make it. The aircraft accident (especially GA) which could not have been avoided by good pilot technique or plain common sense is very rare. There is no equavalent of many road accident scenarios - HGVs shedding tyres and sweving across 3 lanes, 4 wheel drives rolling over and involving you in their accident, chlideren stepping out from between parked cars, white van man, or just plain stupidity in other drivers.

As a pilot, you are pretty much in charge of your own destiny. If that appeals, you'll probably make a good pilot. If it worries you, stay on the ground.

SSD

[KBaB]

are light aircraft serviced as much as larger aircraft?

[LowNSlow]

Any aircraft you rent should be maintained to Public Transport standards. Most schools maintain a professional attitude in this cos it wouldn't do their business any good if their students met an untimely end on a regular (or indeed irregular) basis.

Privately owned aircraft may be on
a) Private Certificate of Airworthiness whereby all major maintenance is performed by a CAA licensed engineer.

b) Permit to Fly where maintenance may be carried out by the owner/s but has to be signed off by a Popular Flying Association approved engineer who may or may not be a CAA licensed engineer.

I have seen aeroplanes that I would not taxi far less fly but they are very few and far between in the UK. As pointed out above, there are some dickheads who I wouldn't fly with but again, they are also rare.

As pointed out by others above the problems begin when limits, either the pilot's or the aeroplane's, are exceeded. Personally I don't do a weight & balance calc every time I fly. I haven't put on weight (much) recently and I sit in the same seat of the same aeroplane whenever I fly. But I preplan as best I can and do a careful pre-flight before I commit aviation. I carry spare batteries for my handheld radio and GPS and use the current issue of charts and Pooleys. As my Cub is a Permit aeroplane weather should not be an issue cos I'm not allowed to fly in IMC but if it does get bad then I can land in any suitable field (most are).

As long as you minimise the things that can go wrong and react when they do, flying light aircraft is a damn sight safer than driving to the airfield!

Wow, that went on longer than I meant it to. Apologies to all those who fell asleep :)

Can't spell, won't spell

Point taken autothrottle

[This message has been edited by LowNSlow (edited 04 December 2000).]

[This message has been edited by LowNSlow (edited 05 December 2000).]

[autothrottle]

You might want to edit the bit about "falling out of the sky" after sundays events low n slow old chap.

[1.3VStall]

Rex_Omar,

Go for it old son! As most people on this thread are pointing out, private flying is far safer than driving on the average British motorway, where the number of total w@nkers behind wheels never ceases to amaze me. Moreover, with proper training and with a responsible attitude (essential!) your safety will be almost entirely under your own control.

Whilst I am no great advocate of all the unnecessary complications and expense of the new JAA (as opposed to the CAA) licensing system the new requirement for a biennial flight with a CAA Examiner will, IMHO, aid light aircraft safety. Provided you approach the flight with the right attitude it can only be beneficial. I did my first one recently and even after 30 years of flying I learnt something.


You'll meet nice people and it's good fun. Only yesterday me and a mate pottered off in my trusty taildragger and went into a grass strip in Gloucestershire that we hadn't visited before. Friendly welcome, lunch and lot's of interesting old aircraft to drool over. It was a nice day out.

But if you really want to express yourself in aviation get yourself into a single-seat, high performance sailplane on a good cross-country day: orgasmic!

[Whirlybird]

I read somewhere that in GA there is one fatality per 107,000 flying hours. Most PPLs do 50-100 hours a year. I'm not sure of the equivalent driving statistics, but I'm pretty certain that means the most dangerous part of your flight is the drive to the airfield. But, as someone else pointed out, flying accidents make front page news; road accidents don't.

------------------
Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[Bally Heck]

Fundamentally in my view, yes. In my fifteen years in aviation, I have known personally five people who have died in light aircraft accidents. I only ever knew one victim of a car crash. It may be that I am a statistical blip, perhaps a straw poll would be in order.

Two deaths were weather related although one could argue that they were also judgement related. (Fly in that!!) Two of the deaths were a result of mechanical failure. The same failure in the same aircraft.

There is a saying along the lines of the air being less forgiving than the sea. That I think is very true, and most of us get to a level of experience, often more through good luck than good judgement, and a level of training, which puts us at considerably less risk than less experienced pilots.

I now have one of the safest jobs in the world, but there are a few times in my past where I have made bad calls. I was fortunate in that the decisions were not bad enough, or circumstances against me enough.

That said, I would still do it all again. With hindsight I now see that doing things "by the book" reduces the risk a lot.

Unfortunately most of us are built with a macho streak. (even the ladies) This and the desire to be seen to be able to do things which more experienced pilots take in their stride.

Overcome that and fly well maintained equipment, in weather well within your capabilities, by the book and you will be OK (probably)

As they used to say in the navy "remember, ammunition is safe until you forget that it is dangerous."

Happy Flying!!!

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[Snap]

Rex Omar

Is he a journo?

[Pilot Pete]

I lost two friends in a piston twin flying PT due to an EFATO. I fly with the same company still. So in some respects you could say it is more dangerous than a perf A a/c but from that terrible experience I have added some 'additions' to my take off safety brief, always use full length when heavy and consider landing back on or straight ahead as it made me acutely aware of the limitations of the performance category, so I could argue that it has made me fly more within the limitations of the type and therefore more safely.

They always climb away on one in training.............

[Captain Numpty]

In the circumstances, I want just want to pass on my sincere condolences to the families of the Pilot and passengers. My thoughts are with them all at this time.

C.N.

[FNG]

Suppose that aeroplanes had been invented before cars. Then one day someone says:

"Hey, I've got this great idea for things called cars. They will basically be like small aeroplanes, but without the wings. They will only be able to travel on strips of tarmac a bit like very long bendy runways. Several will travel along in the same direction at 80-90 mph separated by about two feet side by side and about 30 feet, or less, back to front. Several others will be coming the other way at the same speeds, about 6 feet away, but sometimes a lot less than that. All of these will be driven by people who have been taught how to do it by their dads in a Montego or by some bloke in a Nissan with a sign on top. Many of them will be talking on mobiles, eating Big Macs, trying to get the Charlotte Church cassette out of the stereo, or beating up on their kids in the backseats whilst holding the steering wheel with one finger and looking at a map of Swindon. Every now and then they will weave in and out of one another, then flash some orange lights after they've done that. When it rains or get gets foggy, they will all drive closer and speed up."

Now, would you get in one of those?

Come now, I suspect your question to be less than genuine. If you were really thinking of getting a PPL, you would aready appreciate that flying is actually quite safe really, although it can of course be done dangerously. If you are truly apprehensive about it, don't do it. Also, don't get on a train, go for a swim, cross the road or indeed get out of bed. On second thoughts, do get out of bed and hide underneath it: you never know, the sky might fall on you. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif :rolleyes: :)

[DB6]

Unsafe, nah. I've over 1000 hours now, all on light aircraft, and I'm still here so it can't be that bad. Had a couple of iffy car crashes though.

[Jim lovell]

approximately 75% accidents due in some way to pilot error- be it running out of fuel, flying into bad weather, and making bad judgements regarding performance calculations etc. Overall flying is as safe as you make it and generally speaking if you go out there with the right attitude, do your pre-flights properly, keep tabs on your fuel and above all know the limitations of your aircraft then it can be a very effective and safe way to travel.

[aztruck]

Walking=very dangerous. Stay in bed, get fat, have a coronary, thats my advice.
Otherwise you could do worse than train with a bunch of professionals to fly a well maintained machine within the limits of your competence.
Go and fly, more people are killed changing a light bulb.
And by the way, most people walk away from light aircraft forced landings after power loss. They are very survivable as long as you stay current with the correct procedures.
Sounds like a journo to me too.

[big buddah]

I don't know if this will start a fight or not but anyway....

In NZ we do have a few accidents and people do get killed thats life.
But about %90 of these accidents are caused by private pilots. There are very few problems with profesional pilots as they fly there light a/c into mountianous terrian into bush strips nearly everyday in all sorts of varying weather.
The fact is these professional pilots have to do load sheets and in the old days p-charts they know the strips they fly into like the back of there hands and the weather, they know when to fly and when to call it quites and go to the pub(which is often).
But then you get a ppl who flies once a month to keep his skills up doesn't have to do any load sheets doesn't know the weather or the area etc.
At some time the ppl is going to get into trouble and only good luck that saves many!
but the problem is when there is a mishap as stated in other posts it always makes the headlines. Given light aircraft a bad name?

Always remember aircraft are the same as cars they don't crash themselfs!

Highly recommend doing your ppl make sure you get a good instructor and keep asking questions?

[bisley]

All,

What an interesting chat!

1. You still stand more chance of being killed on your way to the aircraft than you do during the flight.

2. Don't make a decision about learning to fly based on fear... do it 'cos you want to, you'll love it!

3. I think that we should take all the airbags out of cars and replace them with a sharp 8 inch spike on the centre of the steering wheel, facing the driver. Then we'd drive carefully!

Happy Landings

[Chrismcmon]

With reading the 20 replys posted, most are trying to justify air industry accidents because of statistics saying that flying is safest form of transport.
As someone who has scraped up body parts from an air accidents and numerous road accidents I have noticed that when someone is dead it doesnt matter if it was mechanical or human error, either way the result is the same.
Therefore if YOU feel happy to cross the road, Do it.
If YOU feel happy to drive a car, Do it.
If YOU feel hapy to fly a plane, Do it.
because the one thing in life that is for sure is "Whats for you wont pass you"

[Mattvitale]

As a CFI in the US, the people I saw who worried me most were those who thought they knew it all and had nothing they could learn from me. As long as you realize that even a 40,000 hr 747-400 Captain is still learning, I believe that you become a much safer pilot. A sense of mortality and realization that you are capable of making mistakes will keep you ahead of many of those whose aircraft end up in the trees.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The CAA have just published 10 years worth of safety statistics for all aircraft types in CAP 701.

I think it shows quite clearly that although rates differ, light aircraft, glider, balloons, microlights and even (in the right light) gyroplanes are all basically safe. To back myself up, here are a few figures (1990-1999):-

Private Light aircraft: 119 fatal accidents in 8.5 million flying hours, giving one per 71,000 flying hours.

Private Helicopters: 30 fatal accidents in 1.6 million flying hours, giving one per 53,000 flying hours.

Gliders: 34 fatal accidents in 1.6 million flying hours, giving one per 47,000 flying hours.

Microlights: 22 fatal accidents in 1.1 million flying hours, giving one per 50,000 flying hours.

Gyroplanes: 6 fatal accidents in 50,000 flying hours, giving one per 8,000 flying hours. (Okay, maybe not quite so good)

If you are really worried, get hold of your own copy, take a look through, and weigh the statistics, e.g.


British PPL Flying 50 hours pa from the above statistics has a 1:1400 chance of being in a fatal accident. Yes that's slightly higher than a roughly 1:16000 chance of being killed each year in a road accident, or 1:11000 of being killed by an infection caught in an NHS hospital - but personally I think it's an acceptable degree of risk.

The other point is that ALL accidents are preventable, whether air, road, rail or medical - it's up to the individual pilot to prevent their own accidents.

G

[This message has been edited by Genghis the Engineer (edited 13 December 2000).]

[Pax72]

Does anyone have any knowledge of the standards at Lancashire Aero Club at Barton Aerodrome? I have a voucher for my first flying lesson in a light aircraft there (an interesting birthday gift) and I have to admit I'm more than nervous!