SAS pilot fell asleep while co-pilot at the toilet

[paparomeodelta]

Google translation from daily swedish newspaper:

SAS-pilot fell asleep in the cockpit

When the co-pilot went to the bathroom, the captain aboard an SAS plane fell asleep , en route between Copenhagen and Stockholm. The co-pilot had to call twice before the pilot woke up and opened, reported Aftonbladet, referring to a report by the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang.
The captain's explanation is that he did not had time to sleep properly because he would fly five routes on one day. Some measures in the pilot will not be taken, announces the SAS.

[flapsforty]

Some additional info, from the original newspaper article; FWIW.

He was rostered for 5 inter Scandinavian stretches, this happened on stretch 4.

When the doorbell woke him up, he was momentarily disoriented and could not immediately locate the door opener, being newish on the 737.

SAS chief Pilot Bjørn Granviken confirms this has happened last summer. The pilot is anonymous, and the report is intended for use by SAS pilots, not the newspapers.

SAS pilot union foreman Jens Lippestad mentions that pilots have a duty to inform the company when they are too tired to fly. He says current flight time regulations are too flexible and can too easily cause pilot fatigue.

- The rules are too parsimonious - says Lippestad.

Again, this is from a newspaper report; uncertain veracity.

[bubbers44]

I'm not sure I understand how the FO let this information out. I had a captain that was always asleep 30 minutes after departure on the first flight in California. The flight was only one hour but that is what he normally did. We would change the heading bug to keep us on course until he woke up again. That was before the magenta line days. One FO was going to turn him in but was told, would you rather him fall asleep enroute or on the approach if you didn't let him sleep?

[FlightCosting]

In the Aftonbladet story here The excuse that he gave was that he had only 4 hours sleep. He was on leg 4 of a 5 sector day CPH-ARN-CPH so had most probably been on duty about 8 hours with turnarounds.
As he must have had the minimum 8hrs hotel time, what was he up to that not only lead to only 4 hours sleep but also to be so knackered that he fell asleep?

[c46r]

It should never have made it to the press!!!!!!

[JW411]

Well, I can think of dozens of reasons why he might have got just 4 hours sleep in his hotel room so let us start with just a few:

1. Children running up and down the corridor.
2. The staff emptying bottles into the skip just outside his room.
3. The maid calling on the telephone to see if she can come and clean his room.
4. The air-conditioning has failed and the room is stiflingly hot.
5. The heating has failed and he is freezing his b*lls off.
6. The front desk has just called to see what time he is going to check out.
7. The company has called to change his roster.

And so it goes on and on. How many of you genuine pilots out there can put your hands on your hearts and tell me that you have always enjoyed 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep in a hotel room somewhere down route?

Dream on!

[hetfield]

I rarely get 8hrs of uninterrupted sleep in hotels.

- declare unfit to fly
- make company to change hotel

[hetfield]

6. The front desk has just called to see what time he is going to check out.
7. The company has called to change his roster.Okay, then the rest period is interrupted and starts again at those times....

[Denti]

Always lock your door from the inside! Otherwise someone will surely enter your room for whatever reason (the maid, someone misreading his room number, some hooker trying to earn some additional money, an FA for the same reason sans money etc).

And of course EU-OPS FDT limits are so bad that simply rostering to the limit will surely cause fatigue. At the end of last summer nearly everyone in my company fell asleep during a flight more often than not. A result of p**s-poor rostering.

[Hotel Tango]

It should never have made it to the press!!!!!!

Yes it should! The scandalous hours some aircrew are expected to work in a safety orientated industry is nothing short of scandalous - and anything but safe.

[Agaricus bisporus]

The scandalous hours some aircrew are expected to work in a safety orientated industry is (sic) nothing short of scandalous

Quite so, quite so...

[Checkboard]

Given that the EU is currently considering Europe-wide Flight Time Limits (FTL) this is a VERY TOPICAL subject.

Of course, you have all been to the BALPA FTL website:

FTL Campaign Site • BALPA FTL Campaign Home (http://wakeup.balpa.org/)

[mary meagher]

Doesn't help that inflight paranoia since 9/11 keeps the poor pilots locked away from all us pax! who would love to visit the cockpit....and ask lots of questions.
How any of you can keep awake on the transatlantic eastbound flight...not only everyone in the cabin is lights out, but nobody's talking on the RT either.
Soporific in the extreme, I should think, fatigue or no fatigue.

[ExSp33db1rd]

and to add to JW411's list ........

8, " Just want to check the mini-bar .. .( " !@*$!U* OFF !! )

9, BOAC Resthouse Karachi, circa. 1959 ... no room telephone, so call-time was by Bearer knocking on the door - albeit carrying a welcome cup of tea ... time 02.00, loud knocking, opened door to be told ( read with nodding head from side to side and with Indian accent) ... " I am waking you up sir, to tell you that you don't have to get up because your aircraft has been delayed "

( the Bearers always had better knowledge of the aircraft movements than the Ops staff ! )

and in other hotels, the ICDU (International Crew Disturbance Unit) - those with the Jack Hammers and the concrete cutters - obviously got advance warning of my roster.

[DHC6to8]

Who the hell even reports this sh*te... I can't even believe that these stories make their way off the flight... if the national enquirer ever found about how ofter I have awoken from a micro nap to find the copilot fast asleep... it would have been the end of my career 20 years ago...
The sensationalization of all this is getting on my nerves...
6to8

[Aero Mad]

This story is going into the book I am working on at the moment about airline scams and scandals - we will have to see whether it was the pilot or the rostering to blame, but either way I will put a focus on the inadequecies of the current regs. Excuse the thread drift but has anyone any other aviation scandals that could be included? I've got about 25 so far (search airline scams on Google and the PPRuNe thread will appear).

[Hotel Charlie]

Who the hell even reports this sh*te...

The Captain himself I believe! Non-punitive anonymous reporting system to get the company's attention to bad scheduling! It won't get any better if it is not reported! But the ones who are really at fault here are the legislators who allow this kind of abuse!! They really SUCK!! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[deltahotel]

Mary M. Planned sleeping is the way to go! If I still flew pax I'd be delighted to have yr presence on the flight deck.

Aero Mad. It's not a scandal, just the reality of sleep/fatigue management. everyone deals with it differently - some better than others. I think I'm lucky and usually (though not always) deal with it quite well.

[cactusbusdrvr]

I agree 100% that 8 hours rest in a hotel is going to result in about 5 to 6 hours sleep, if you are lucky.

[skip.rat]

I agree 100% that 8 hours rest in a hotel is going to result in about 5 to 6 hours sleep, if you are lucky.
- Very true; now consider the proposed EU FTLs which could allow downroute hotel "rest" to be as little as 7:30 (which includes 15 min. travel between airport/hotel).
- so that's 7 hrs 'room available for occupation' - and with about an hour each side to go to bed & get ready for next duty & maybe half an hour to actually get to sleep that leaves 4:30 for you to achieve adequate rest before strapping your @rse into that aircraft again.:zzz: Appalling.

I refer you to Checkboard's post #11

Be afraid.

[Phileas Fogg]

People ...

Minimum rest dictates a minimum of 10 or 11 hours in a hotel of which a minimum of 8 hours should be horizontal rest ... one could be in a hotel for a week or more but did one achieve 8 hours horizontal before reporting for duty?

[Machinbird]

You guys haven't lived until you fall asleep in a single seat jet that doesn't have an autopilot. :}
In my case, I woke up when my head fell forward at 3 AM, otherwise.....

[Miserlou]

I caused my wife much displeasure when I extended FTL's to my home.
She thought it entirely reasonable that I get up at 8 of a weekend day to get breakfast for the kids when I should check-in after lunch time.
But when I suggested she get up at 0300 to be at work at 8 she thought I was being unreasonable!

Anyway, it works and I feel better at work.

[Admiral346]

Guess, who got up today at 7am with the kids when checkin is at 1.45 pm for a 10h duty...
But try and tell the wife...

[DinosaurAviator]

Big deal,

During the early years of my career we made up to 13 take off and landings in one day. We also flew DC-9 aircraft into 5,000 ft. runways and circled to land with 1 mile visibility and 400 ft. ceilings.

Sure I ended my career at 43,000 ft. with one or two legs each day.....but it wasn't that way for many years.

Yes...fatigue is a major issue. But 5 legs in one day? Give me a break. What a bunch of crybabies. This is the life of a pilot. Perhaps some would better be suited as University Professors.

[FlightCosting]

As my experience in the sharp end is pre 9/11and cockpit security, I am not up to date on current procedure.
On a flight from TFS to ARN last Sunday, The co pilot seemed to have a weak bladder and was always popping out to use the facilities and would use the intercom to get the Captain to let him back in. What is the purpose of the entry keypad on the door? I thought that was to gain access to the cockpit?
What happens if both pilots become incapacitated? does the cabin crew ask if there is anybody who fly this 737 and who also a safe cracker?

The flight was Norwegian not SAS so the Captain was awake

[skip.rat]

People ...

Minimum rest dictates a minimum of 10 or 11 hours in a hotel of which a minimum of 8 hours should be horizontal rest ... one could be in a hotel for a week or more but did one achieve 8 hours horizontal before reporting for duty?


- Sure; that may be true at the moment - but -
- Is (potentially) 4:30hrs asleep (as per my previous post) before a flying duty a reasonable or acceptable amount of rest to be given before a flying duty?

Note: this is not for a proposed split-duty, but for min. rest downroute.

We all know what started out as limits ends up being treated as targets by scheduling.

[skeletor]

NEVER EVER EVER leave one person behind a locked cockpit door.

Sleep
fatigue
Pilot Incap.
Egypt Air 990
Silkair 185

Pilot comes out, cabin crew goes in!

[411A]

What a bunch of crybabies. This is the life of a pilot. Perhaps some would better be suited as University Professors.

Or bank tellers, or other jobs with bankers hours.
Oh boo hoo...can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen (and flight deck).:{

[Hotel Charlie]

Thumbs up Unhooked :ok:
DinosaurAviator and his fellow dinosaur 411A should probably just crawl back into their caves ;)

[Shell Management]

Every SMS should assess fatigue risk.

[Mike X]

Thumbs up Unhooked http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
DinosaurAviator and his fellow dinosaur 411A should probably just crawl back into their caves http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Sorry HC. I May not earn my living via aviation, but I have noticed the decline in stamina amongst humans over the years.

[Hotel Charlie]

I May not earn my living via aviation, but I have noticed the decline in stamina amongst humans over the years.

Well Mike X, not really the same requirements and pressure in the good old days either I believe! Or what do you say? :ok:

[Miserlou]

They may have noticed the decline in human stamina. I wonder if they also notice the decline in accident rates.

[dash6]

True. Us old farts stay awake while the youngsters snore. We don't have kids to take on the school run,or wives who have stuff to do at 0600. Mostly 'cos they left us years ago. Sad innit?

[4Greens]

In two pages of comment we have seemed to have forgotten the effect of jet lag on all these rosters.

In a two person crew, controlled cockpit napping with the cabin crew in the loop is the only answer.

[PA38-Pilot]

About this,

And so it goes on and on. How many of you genuine pilots out there can put your hands on your hearts and tell me that you have always enjoyed 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep in a hotel room somewhere down route?

I fully agree with you 4greens. Due to jet lag and 0:30 wakeup times in a hotel after flying all the night before until sunrise is why I sometimes get only 2 hours of sleep before reporting for duty. You can't just turn yourself off unfortunately.

[411A]

You can't just turn yourself off unfortunately.
Speak for yourself, PA28...some can, others cannot.:rolleyes:

[PilotsOfTheCaribbean]

You can't just turn yourself off unfortunately

Which is quite ironic because I have no problem doing it to other people!

[con-pilot]

Well no doubt this is a slippery slope for sure.

At one operation I flew for, government, when I started the rule was eight (8) hours off every twenty four (24) hour period.

What the hell was that supposed to mean?

The senile chief pilot at the time told me 'exactly that' when I inquired.

So, I inquired again, so counting crew duty time plus flying we are working sixteen hours a day, with only eight hours off for eating, sleeping and travel time, yes?

He replied, "Oh no, were only allowed to work eight hours a day, 08:00 to 17:00 with an hour off for lunch. If we go over that, I have to authorize overtime and Washington doesn't like that."

Well as it turned out, at times we didn't even get the eight hours off. They had this nifty little regulation called 'operational necessity' when all duty rules were overridden.

My longest crew duty day was thirty six (36) hours, in a 727 with the standard three crew members.

I finally, after that trip, working with the Department's safety Division Chief and OSHA, was able to change the crew duty regulations to something we could live with.

But sadly there were still abuses, all in the name of 'for the best interest of the country' of course.

Oh, the senile chief pilot, one day he bragged to the wrong person*, laughing, about a crew that had only been able to spend ten hours in a hotel on a three day mission, on his orders. After that he was ordered to transfer to Fairbanks, Alaska and he retired instead, after 42 years of government service.

Bottom line, we need more effective time off. I've been there and done it, I know what I'm talking about. No one can help about the conditions in hotels. I've checked into a hotel at 09:00 in the morning after a long international crew day, crossing multiple time zones and under the best conditions it is hard to go right to sleep. However, I can't see the airlines, from what I know, ever giving adequate crew rest to crew, both cockpit and cabin crews.

* That person was the Attorney General of the United States.

[teddyman]

Hi all.

In my world it doesn't matter what FTL we have. It is all down to how we plan our time at home. And please don't come and say that you all do that and never ever are tired even if you had 15 hrs or more off:=

Controlled napping is for sure better then uncontrolled napping at work:8

[ExSp33db1rd]

From my logbook 12th September, 1960........

Report for Duty @ 20.40. GMT
Flight - London/Shannon/Keflavik/Detroit
Landed 14.40 GMT

That's 3 sectors, 18 hours, on my calculator.

[308GT4]

you're ALL missing the point. Think of the money that is being made.........:yuk:

[Uncle Fred]

From my logbook 12th September, 1960........

Report for Duty @ 20.40. GMT
Flight - London/Shannon/Keflavik/Detroit
Landed 14.40 GMT

That's 3 sectors, 18 hours, on my calculator.

Just curious--how many times a month did you do that? How much time in Detroit was given to recover? Were you allowed to doze on the flight deck? How much vacation did you receive a year? How many months of the 12 months were over 90 hours hard time? Was your carrier at the time engaged in any action to force concessions to your pilot group? What was the planned retirement age for you when you did this? Were you constantly stressed by the uncertainties of the "career" choice or did the public and press stil think that you were better than a felon? As one of the other posters asked what was the accident rate then?

Not to be provocative but at my age it boils down to the rather wistful obligation to be somewhat alert on the flight deck--that should after all not be a high hurdle for a company to arrange but it is.

I would imagine that every poster on this forum who has been flying for any amount of time has experienced breathtaking stretches of time without sleep. In the military our "augmented" (could be a co-pilot day 1 out of the schoolhouse) duty day was 24 hours. If that started at 10 p.m. so be it. I do not think this kind of thing is safe in the slightest and although that type of day is not allowed for most airline operations the scheduling can be just as brutal and not surprisngly, in my experience, often so.

I really dig the ideas of self-actualization that are extant in the world as people post their thoughts Guys and gals summit Everest without gas, Lord Coe ran a sub 1:42 800 meters, I knew a trucker that drove from St Louis to L.A only stopping for gas and food. These men and women have every right to savor their "toughness" and prowess compared to mere mortals--Ah, those 10,000 men abed in England whilst I was out fighting the good fight. Others relish the idea of working in an office 17 hours a day.

Note to such individuals: Leave me out of your self-actualization schemes. When I am transporting your family across the world I should be rested and fit. If that is "soft" to you tough--go buy an airplane and self-actualize to your hearts content--just not with my relatives on board. This is the transportation industry--not a springboard to collect experiences that one can yield into bragging rights.
:)

[Denti]

Duty days of 18 hours are still allowed and very frequently done under EU-OPS rules, without augmented crew, just two guys and their cabin crew do their usual pattern of work. Of course nowadays you need 18 hours of rest afterwards, but thats all you get, not a minute more.

[Miserlou]

I seem to remember an amusing point in the book 'Bluff your way on theflightdeck'.

It said words to the effect, 'years ago there were no flight time limitations so a crew would sometimes fly until they were totally exhausted and then take a break until they were fit to fly again.
Nowadays, flight time regulations ensure they are exhausted ALL of the time!'

[jackx123]

and it will get worse as competition increase with the world economy predicted to take another downturn.

many years ago, when many of the pruners wasn't born, SAS used to fly CPH-KHI-BKK DC-8-62. 12 days...... what a holiday but time has changed

[ExSp33db1rd]

Uncle Fred ...

I'm not going to answer all your points in detail, even if memory allowed, water under the bridge now and we didn't actually pay too much attention to the long Atlantic night sectors anyway, it was par for the course.

What's your point of asking how much time I got in Detroit AFTER the event !! It doesn't matter if we got 1 day or 1 year, the crew were knackered as they landed. I notice you didn't ask how much rest we'd achieved BEFORE the flight, which is all that matters, nor has the retirement age, or annual leave any bearing on the issue, unless of course you are just jealous of crew working patterns, as so many are ? If so, and I were still flying, I'd wake you up at 0200 as I drove off to work for a long night freighter flight - I might call you from some Hell Hole of the Empire on Christmas Day, too, and ask if you were enjoying YOUR Christmas with YOUR family ? All too often I only knew for certain that I would be home for Christmas, or school fetes etc. AFTER the event.

Until a Constellation crashed into the seawall landing at Kallang, Singapore, some 60+ years ago, when the crew had been on duty for over 24 hrs, there were no flight time limitations, or if there were, they had no teeth.

For those who are moaning about long duty days, you have my sympathy, but it was always thus. Nothing new under the sun.

As a Captain I only once had to apply any 'pressure' to a crew to extend their duty, to a daytime limit of 14 hrs., because the tech crew were happy to do it and I felt that the cabin crew could at least accompany us, and the time wasn't the big issue, after all they would get extra pay - a big incentive - but they were misinterpreting their own union rules, which was what finally p***ed me off.

Much more recently, the owner,CEO, of a longhaul freight outfit I was working for asked me to organise a crew pattern which included a long duty day, and when I pointed out that it was just outside the legal limit and we couldn't do it without an extra 'slip' crew somewhere en route, he then suggested that we get one crew to do the flight planning, aircraft checks, start the engines etc. at which point a second crew would turn up and slip into the seats, having only been on duty for about 5 minutes , and immediately take off and so complete the flight within the limit !!! They all try it on. I left that lot shortly afterwards.

I still had The Best Job In The World, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat, all that I'd do differently would be to start sooner, and have a better seniority position on the Bidline !

Enjoy.

[Roger Dixon]

"NEVER EVER EVER leave one person behind a locked cockpit door."

So true, true. As a PAX, this worries the hell out of me to this day.

Just some PAX nostalgia here if I may ----- In the late 1960's I flew Canada-UK frequently in my job. I would often skulk up to the Purser on the 707, and ask him if I could visit the cockpit. I was never refused by the Captain, and as an engineer myself , I received some of the most interesting education of my life. AND the flight crew, all four of them actually used to enjoy explaining things to me - for a while anyway.

I know it's a bygone era but........... the cockpit door was frequently opened; the CC would offer coffee or whatever to the flight crew. The navigator would receive a fax about traffic conditions on the M4, which he would pass back to the Purser for general consumption. There was no chance whatsoever that the aircraft would be left without a competent person awake, up there at the controls. None.

AND the Captain would be asleep for short periods, - with everyone's consent - not that this mattered to him of course! He had a schedule, and everyone knew it.

Then, as we approached the west of Ireland, the Captain would suddenly wake up without any prompting and say to me, - OK, off yer go, we have to start working now.

Some years later I used to frequently ride the Air Canada DC8 overnight east bound flight from Vancouver to Toronto, with stops in between - known affectionately as the "red-eye." There were two drivers - new avionics. But the cockpit door was almost always open, and the contact between the flight deck and cabin crew almost continuous. I was told that AC flight crew had minimum 12 hr. stopovers.

I felt truly safe in those days.

[moggiee]

Well, I can think of dozens of reasons why he might have got just 4 hours sleep in his hotel room so let us start with just a few:

1. Children running up and down the corridor.
2. The staff emptying bottles into the skip just outside his room.
3. The maid calling on the telephone to see if she can come and clean his room.
4. The air-conditioning has failed and the room is stiflingly hot.
5. The heating has failed and he is freezing his b*lls off.
6. The front desk has just called to see what time he is going to check out.
7. The company has called to change his roster.

And so it goes on and on. How many of you genuine pilots out there can put your hands on your hearts and tell me that you have always enjoyed 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep in a hotel room somewhere down route?

Dream on!

Been there on all of those and yes, I have fallen asleep on the flight deck. Some of the schedules were crazy - especially as we were "military" and could do a 16 crew duty period with up to 5 sectors and then be required to do an extra hour of "captain's discretion" to get the job done. Think about it: 4 hours sleep, get up at 2am, airborne at 4am, fly until 6.30pm (possibly extend until 7.30pm) and do 5 sectors in the process.

Thank God that we had a 4 man flightdeck so that we could watch over each other.

[Bigmouth]

Most EU countries have far stricter rest requirements for truck drivers than for pilots.
(Or physicians for that matter)

[Dodo56]

Leave me out of your self-actualization schemes. When I am transporting your family across the world I should be rested and fit. If that is "soft" to you tough--go buy an airplane and self-actualize to your hearts content--just not with my relatives on board. This is the transportation industry--not a springboard to collect experiences that one can yield into bragging rights.



I wholeheartedly agree with you, in principle, but sadly principle does not fill airplane seats and airlines are obligated to use their assets (which includes the good folk at the sharp end) to the limits of the law if they are not to go out of business due to high prices and lost passengers.

Of course I'm not condoning breaking or even bending the rules, just saying if anyone here feels the amount of rest or the shift pattern they are allowed by their employer is inadequate, and the employer is not breaking the law, their gripe lies with the rulemakers not the airline.

[paparomeodelta]

Skeletor. I agree fully. Never ever leave one single pilot in cockpit w closed door. But that has nothing to do with EgyptAir.

The cockpit voice recorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit_voice_recorder) (CVR) recorded the Captain excusing himself to go to the lavatory, followed thirty seconds later by the first officer saying in Egyptian Arabic "Tawkalt ala Allah", which translates to "I rely on God." A minute later, the autopilot was disengaged, immediately followed by the First Officer again saying, "I rely on God." Three seconds later, the throttle for both engines was reduced to zero, and both elevators were moved three degrees, nose down. The First Officer repeated "I rely on God" seven more times before the Captain is suddenly heard to ask repeatedly, "What's happening, what's happening?" The flight data recorder reflected that the Captain then commanded the nose up while the First Officer commanded the nose down, at the same time as the engines were shut down. The Captain asked, "What is this? What is this? Did you shut the engines?" The First Officer did not respond. The captain repeatedly stated, "Pull with me" but the FDR data indicated that the elevator surfaces remained in a split condition (with the left surface commanding nose up and the right surface commanding nose down) until the FDR and CVR stopped recording.

[somedaywill12]

So what should the co-pilot do? Pee in a bottle?

Long hours and lack of sleep seem to be part of the deal with pilots and trainee doctors...two professions where you really need the people involved to have their wits about them and not falling over with tiredness.

And the sad thing is that they have so much responsibility - the lives of people are literally at their hands. There are so many unimportant positions out there. Who actually needs the fashion and shoes industry? Or, being very strict, the entertainment sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_industry).

Obviously, you could be asking "Well, who really needs to fly around the world?" but then there is more to flying than it just being a means of public transport.

I really think that conditions for pilots and co-pilots need to improve and their work should be valued a lot more.

[AvMed.IN]

Somedaywill12
Continuing with what you have asked...considering the regulated airlines industry, ensuring safety is the onerous responsibility of the regulator and airlines, or else lost sleep compromises safety (http://www.avmed.in/2011/01/lost-sleep-compromised-safety/), with at times tragic end...remember Air India flight IX 812 (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/unsafe-deceit-air-india-extends-pilots-duty-hours/)

[fmgc]

Never ever leave one single pilot in cockpit w closed door

Get real, with min cabin crew trying to sell as much as possible this isn't gonna happen.

[FCS Explorer]

we wouldn't need additional watchdogs if we had enough SLEEP.

no pilot falls asleep on duty out of pure laziness. so obviously there is a problem and since not all of us are the 36-hrs-straight hero-type this problem needs to be solved, even if just for the 'weak' of us.

[Magic90]

JW411 hit the nail on the head from my experiences - on one of my very first operational missions covering Bosnia, I was so tired because of the hotel and a show time of 0100L that, I remember the CP calling 80Kts but could not manage to stay awake for V1 or VR...I will add at this juncture that I was mission crew NOT flt deck!

I was snoring so loudly that I failed to hear the CP release me for the "after takeoff and climb checks" (a walk around of the forward cabin once the airframe was 'clean'). My colleague picked up the duty and woke me up some 20 mins into the transit. Come to think of it I don't remember much of the 10 hrs that followed.:)

What I did learn from the experience was to be prepared and carry sufficient temazepam to see me through 3 weeks down route - a guaranteed 6-8 hours sleep! I still use it now as a PAX on long-haul flights - bed or no bed! This was also the detachment that I bust 120 hrs over a 21 day period.

[FCS Explorer]

throwing uppers and downers is probably not the best solution if you gotta do the job from 25 till 65 (or later)....:cool:

[Hotel Charlie]

Well Guys and Gals, the politicians and legislators will not do anything until the passengers (voters) are so scared that they stop flying. Nothing is gonna happen until we have some more serious accidents and dead people :sad: But of course it doesn't help when the accident investigator just call the cause "pilot error" and not why the pilot "erred" :ugh:
And as long as Joe Public gets cheap airfare and the statistics ain't to bad he's a happy camper :p

[SadPole]

And as long as Joe Public gets cheap airfare and the statistics ain't to bad he's a happy camperUnfortunately, this is how it works. Governments and corporations have "risk management" specialists that calculate what is cheaper, take some risks and pay for screw-ups this much with such and such probability, or pay for not taking those risks X amount of money.

When I lived in the US, there was this constant propaganda of how excessive damages awarded by courts are a drag on companies. But, the other side of the coin is that this is that such damages push those risk-management calculations toward more sanity. A pilot/engineer/production manager being pushed to do stupid things by management can then testify in court to that effect and get a part of the damages in the process, and this protects him far more than any governmental regulations.

Without it, there would be much more of the low-cost risks everywhere. So, maybe there is some value to that so called "sue-happy" society. :)

[sf25]

And as long as Joe Public gets cheap airfare and the statistics ain't to bad he's a happy camper
Unfortunately, this is how it works.

NOT TRUE! Joe Public doesn´t have the faintest idea about fatigue being a serious and common problem in aviation. Joe Public normally doesn´t peruse forums like pprune but gets his information from the media where he´s happy to read that the recent incident/ accident was "just" a pilot´s error.

Joe Public believes that there are rules and regulations enough to make his life as slf safe.

... it´s about the professional pilots to act and inform and let Joe know what´s behind the pilot´s error and make him aware of the coherences.

[Bigmouth]

Joe Public doesn´t have the faintest idea because Joe Public doesn´t care as long as he can save a few quid on his ticket and spend them on a beer at the airport bar instead.
And Joe P. wouldn´t necessarily get any wiser from perusing these pages either.
In the case of this thread starter a captain nodded off for a couple of minutes while the FO was absent. He reports this to his airline and thus by extension also to the local CAA, just like he is supposed to. May we all learn something from it.
What we learn is not to write reports, as the result will inevitably be that some hack will get a hold of it, copy it pretty much verbatim and publish it with a sensational shock/horror headline.
Funny thing is... Sometime last year both pilots of a LoCo based in the same neighborhood fall asleep over Germany and don´t wake up until they are over Sweden (Incident: Norwegian B738 over Germany, Denmark and Sweden on Jul 13th 2010, loss of communication for 30 minutes (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42fd3d08&opt=0)). The airline laughs it off and says: "Just a case of a misdialed frequency, ha ha, silly ATC couldn´t figure out an alternate way of contacting them, ha ha, happens all the time."
And the tabloids once again do a copy/paste.

And when yours truly here on pprune questions the "ha-ha, silly mistake" attitude and opines that 30mins sounds more like a nap than a goof, the thread gets removed.

Go figure.

[Akali Dal]

This was NOT supposed to happen! I thought first world airpilots are SO disciplined top of the world aces that they would and could do no wrong.

If it had been a third world pilot, the eye rollings and dismissive snorts wopuld have been unending:ugh:

[Hotel Charlie]

Akali Dal: had been a third world pilot, the eye rollings and dismissive snorts wopuld have been unending

Well dude if a so called "third world pilot" were to report himself he would most likely get fired or maybe even sent to jail! :rolleyes: So guess what? You'll be none the wiser :ok: