R/T Fail Procedures

[Slippers]

Has any thought been given to reviewing R/T Fail Procedures? I work as an ATCO and in the current climate, if you were inbound to say Heathrow and you lost your R/T as you entered the hold, would you descend in the stack and then try to make an approach? If you did, I'm sure that would make some people on the ground very twitchy indeed.

[englishal]

I would sqwark 7600, then either: When the further clearance time is reached, fly the route previously assigned by ATC in the last received clearance, or if being radar vectored the direct route from point of radio failure to the fix, route or airway specified in the R Vector clearance, or in the absence of an assigned or expected route, the route filed in your flight plan. Unless local procedures exist.....you should know this as an ATCO!

[Slippers]

Englishal

I am aware of the procedures as they are written, my point is only that if Heathrow are landing 27L for example, you would be flying straight towards and then over central London whilst not talking to anyone. Thoughts of New York would inevitalby spring to mind. I don't think sqwarking 7600 would make any difference, because if a hijacker knows how to turn a transponder off, then he certainly knows how to select 7600. You only need to look at what happened to the Go Flight over France to see how concerned people are about losing contact with aircraft.

[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: Slippers ]

[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: Slippers ]

[bookworm]

englishal wrote:
...route or airway specified in the R Vector clearance...

Now there's an interesting one. I've never heard a route or airway specified in any vector from London. Which leaves me wondering what on earth to do when the radio goes quiet when I'm on a vector. Do I stay on the vector for a set period of time for noise (loud crunch) abatement? Or do I turn to a navaid/fix immediately? If so, which fix?

[52049er]

Good topic slippers - thing is the radio never seems to fail at nice moments like entering a hold. Last time my precious 'bus did it to me I was on vectors at CDG preparing to take a heading to intercept the loc. Those familiar with the crl 120r will kno wthat your last heading before amn intercept takes you towards incoming traffic from the East. We finally got it working in time, and in post flight decided that we probably have just gone 7600 and intercepted & taken the b****ing on the ground.

Seemed to us that would have been safer than continuing towards 5 or 6 inbounds or climbing up and out of it. Not sure it would be ideal though.

[Rusty Cessna]

Just for future reference, of you want the official R/T failure procedures they can be located in the AIP ENR section 1-6,or on page 449 of Trevor Thom 5.


Hope it helps,
Rusty.

(was a bit long for me to copy it all)

[Julian]

I would squwak 7600, then either if in a hold depart after the expected time of next clearance - ie from a hold to an ILS approach, I would shoot the ILS. If enroute I would proceed as filed or cleared by ATC.

Julian.

[Slippers]

I'm not trying to be alarmist, but I honestly believe with the way things stand that if you lose your R/T and you continue towards an airfield where the approach path takes you close to a major city, especially in the US, you're at risk of being shot down. But if you try to deviate from your intended destination, eg go for your alternate, you're even more at risk of being shot down.
I think that the procedures need to be reviewed in order to cope with this changing situation. Maybe, for example, each country should nominate a designated diversion airfield to be used in the event of a radio faliure (eg Brize Norton) or if they don't already, all aircraft should be required to carry an independent battery powered communication device (eg a radio or telephone) to be used as a back up.

[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: Slippers ]

[M.Mouse]

So let me get this right. There are published radio failure procedures but if we adhere to the procedure we are likely to get shot down?

[Rusty Cessna]

Personally, I dread the day, cos the procedures confuse the hell outta me (the written ones).

Rusty.

[Monty Nivo]

Remember, if you are and can remain VMC, you can go wherever you like. In IMC, you're stuck with what's laid down.

In event of loss of your aircraft radios only, the squawk will help. In event of the centre radios going down, you'll need your wits about you and a bl**dy good plan!!!

Deliberately written a little vaguely to keep too much gen from those with mal-intent.

[englishal]

You won't get shot down in the UK, there's not enough fields left for the bits to fall in......In the US you will probably be intercepted (your tax dollars at work!) and if you are doing something dodgey, ie. penetrating a MOA, loitering over a nuclear power plant etc,....and not responding to the F16 on your wing tip, you will more than likely be shot down. However if you were to stick to your filed flight plan, and / or RT failure procedures, and carry out interception procedures correctly, then you should be ok...

[Julian]

Slippers - Are you sure you are ATC?
If you were you would be aware of intercept procedures and communication with an ntercepting aircraft without using a radio. Its down to PIC to make sure he understands all his responsibilties in the present climate if intercepted by a military aircraft.

If you didnt carry on with your flight plan you would eventually fall out of the sky on said city due to lack of fuel !!!

Julian.