Are they doing this on purpose?

[apache]

I have heard recently of a SECOND pilot who left a certain operator whilst still bonded, and agreed to pay his bond. The operator then cuts off all lines of communication with the ex pilot, never reply to emails , won't take your phone call or even reply when you have left several messages.
The pilots then pay back MOST of their bond.... in a payment schedule process. The pilot, as I have said before HAS agreed to pay the full amount of the bond owing, and is in the process of doing so.
In the meantime, the company has started debt recovery procedures against the pilot, and does not inform the pilot of this. The company gives the debt collection agency wrong details (twice now!!!) and the first thing the pilot knows of it all is when the debt recovery agency hits them with an extra $3000 or so of fees, because the pilot failed to show up to court and/or respond to the debt collection agencies letters.
In BOTH cases, the company sent legal stuff to addresses which were old before the pilot even left the company. in BOTH cases, the pilot HAD updated his contact details with the company when he was still there,and BOTH pilots had received other correspondence from the company at the correct details when they worked for the company.

it is just ANOTHER pain in the neck that pilots who are paying their bonds back have to deal with. and it would seem that the company are doing this on PURPOSE to make a point.

I would say to ANY pilot who leaves a company where they are bonded.... KEEP A RECORD OF ALL CORRESPONDENCE! even if it is phone call, a christmas card(hahaha) or a legal letter. keep the envelopes too!!!!!

[SgtBundy]

I am not sure - don't put to malice what you can put to incompetence.

I had a similar issue with a car lease when I switched jobs (not aviation related). The lease company organised the finance and did the paperwork, and in the duration of the lease I moved. The lease company got the details from my employer automatically, updated their info and everything happened as normal. When I switched companies the lease terminated and the finance became my responsibility directly. A month later I got a call informing me my car was going to be repossessed and would I like to catch up on two payments. Seems the lease company never changed my address on the finance and I did not get their paperwork and late notices. The date the lease terminated was one day before the normal finance payment, so I was unknowingly two payments in the whole instead of the one I knew I was, which triggered their debt recovery actions.

I would not be surprised if it was a similar setup - the bond is held with some old details and no-one was proactive enough to ensure they were correct before beginning action.

[Icarus2001]

Anytime you deal with your employer about something as serious as this, even leave etc PUT IT IN WRITING. Email is great because it is time stamped, however a sent email does not mean it was received.

the debt recovery agency hits them with an extra $3000 or so of fees, because the pilot failed to show up to court and/or respond to the debt collection agencies letters.

If you have not been SERVED with a letter of demand then you cannot be "fined" an extra $3000. Just because a company sends you an invoice does not mean you are legally required to pay it.

The debt collection company cannot add money to a debt because you did not show up in court, the court could impose the penalty but only if you had been summonsed to appear.

Spend $200 and get some legal advice.

I know of one MFO who told his own bonded pilots not to worry when they left as the bond was legally unenforceable!

Come up with a payment plan, how about $20 a month for the next X years?:)

[Back Pressure]

Unless the law has been changed recently, there is no obligation on a debtor to pay any collection fees demanded by a debt collector.

In other words, you are only liable for the original debt with the original party. Debt collectors will demand you pay their fees, but tell them where to stick it. After all, you have no commercial deal or contract whatsoever with the debt collector, who is hired by the creditor, and is paid by them.

[Icarus2001]

The ACCC guide to debt collection. Section 12 is useful and so is section 19.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item.phtml?itemId=733222&nodeId=701ac447ba70f932e4deaeb83d6e0239&fn=Debt%20collection%20guideline%20reprint%202010.pdf

The operator then cuts off all lines of communication with the ex pilot, never reply to emails , won't take your phone call or even reply when you have left several messages.
The solution to that is a registered letter addressed to the CEO of the organisation or failing that the CFO.

[tail wheel]

"The company gives the debt collection agency wrong details (twice now!!!) and the first thing the pilot knows of it all is when the debt recovery agency hits them with an extra $3000 or so of fees, because the pilot failed to show up to court and/or respond to the debt collection agencies letters.
In BOTH cases, the company sent legal stuff to addresses which were old before the pilot even left the company. in BOTH cases, the pilot HAD updated his contact details with the company when he was still there,and BOTH pilots had received other correspondence from the company at the correct details when they worked for the company."

apache. That makes no sense. No Court will entertain or pass judgement on a claim if there is no Affidavit of Service and the Respondent is absent.

Either your friend was Served and failed to attend at Court, or you have the story very wrong.

No additional fees or charges are payable unless included in a Court Judgement. If the matter was heard in a Small Claims Tribunal (in most states) the fees and charges a Complainant may claim are minimal.

"The operator then cuts off all lines of communication with the ex pilot, never reply to emails , won't take your phone call or even reply when you have left several messages."

Keep a diary, phone bills, emails etc. The Court would be very interested in a Complainant endeavouring to frustrate settlement of a debt!

I suggest you go check the story as your post is incorrect.

[apache]

tailwheel...
they were named in a class action as a number of pilots had left, and they were grouped in with the others.
The court found in favour of the company, and the first that these two knew of it was when they were ruled guilty in absentia, and the agency, amazingly, tracked them down.

the second guy I have heard of, took it back to court and the judge ordered them to mediation... the company would NOT negotiate - judge not impressed.

I haven't heard the final outcome.

[Angle of Attack]

Bonds may be a contract but just leave when you want to, in general your going to go overseas anyway so tell them to shove it! I left one about 9 years ago and told them to shove it saved 10k. If companies are starting to really try and get these bonds back I would like to hear which ones, you can P.M me if you like my brother is a lawyer that would love to know, he reckons the companies dont have a leg to stand on!

[Zoomy]

Since this is a professional pilots rumour network. Could someone maybe hint at which company would be so low as to cause employees/ex employees so much grief. I have heard of bullying in stingy GA jobs but not at the bond for endo stage of jobs.

I am interested because I have been shafted with prickly pineapples all the way through GA and wish not to give service to bollicks companies such as this.

What absolute bastardry.

[The Green Goblin]

Bonds may be a contract but just leave when you want to, in general your going to go overseas anyway so tell them to shove it! I left one about 9 years ago and told them to shove it saved 10k. If companies are starting to really try and get these bonds back I would like to hear which ones, you can P.M me if you like my brother is a lawyer that would love to know, he reckons the companies dont have a leg to stand on!

You're a real moron.

I hope no-one here takes your advice.

I fully support bonding, and I fully support paying it back. It's give and take between Pilots and the companies.

If more people like you told the few operators who are still prepared to endorse their Pilots to shove it when they leave, then the next minute we would all be paying for every rating from your first twin to an airliner.

A bond is a gentleman's agreement. As professional aviators, it is up to us to act like professionals in everything we do.

If I find out who you are, I'll blacklist you with as many aviators as I can.

GG

[Josh Cox]

Disclaimer: this is just what I've experienced using the WA system, good luck.

I do not know or care which company you are referring to here, but debt recovery is something I've been learning about for the past two or so years.

State to state things are a little different.

In short, I rented a house to some scumbags, they trashed my house and stopped paying rent, i.e. breached the contract.

Took them to court, they did not turn up, had my case heard, by presenting my evidence ( contract, photos and condition reports ), and the Magistrate ruled in my favour and awarded an amount.

A debt recovery agent basically tries to bully and scare you into coughing up cash, if you (the debtor) are stupid enough to pay up to their conditions, plus interest and their self imposed fee's, your mistake.

Nothing is set in stone until the Magistrate rules as such, i.e. MR Smith, you are hereby ordered to pay ABC $XXXXX.

If you have been making regular payments to the creditor ( or trying too ), the Magistrate is unlikely to be too harsh on you.

Often the Creditor will request a payment schedule, which is the Magistrate ordering you to pay under certain conditions, i.e. $xxx per week, this amount is decided at a "means enquiry", you will need to take pay slips etc etc.

If you default on the installment order, the creditor will then seek a "Garnish" or "Earnings Appropriation Order", which is effectively the court ordering your employer to pay the creditor.

One nasty curve ball that can be thrown in after defaulting on a installment order is the "Seizure and Sale" or "Seizure and Deliver", the bailiff will turn up on your door and take goods to the vales of the outstanding amount, this is not a good situation, a $1200 TV, when seized and sold is worth about $300, my previous tennants found that little gem out the hard way ( that is how the idiots spent their cash splash money, I mean stimulas package;)).

With this order, there are items that are exempt from the bailiff taking, each state is different ( fridge, work clothes etc etc ). My advice is not to let it get this bad, you do not need your kids to see this.

From what I've seen. Debt recovery agents are used when there is a fair chance of recovering the cash, they are expensive and as others have said, you are under not obligation to pay them squat, unless the Magistrate orders you too.

If you are summonsed to Court, you will be served this notice by hand by either the creditor, debt recovery agent or the bailiff.

If you are summonsed to Court, be it the small claim or the Magistrates, and do not attend, perhaps not immediately, a bench warrant for your arrest will be issued.

The advice above by other posters is sound, get legal advice, if you are the debtor, just about every state has a free service to give you advice, if you are the creditor, you'll have to pay for advice.

Unions, they can offer very good advice and support.

Interest and fees can only be added by the Magistrate.

Everytime you go to court, the creditor has to pay application fees, the debtor will eventually have to pay all of these.

Mediation is often the first step in the process, the two parties enter a short attempt at negotiation:

The Creditor goes into this looking to gain as much of the money as quickly as possible, for example if the debtor owes the creditor $10,000.

The debtor can offer say $5,000 cash, the creditor may take that, so it is done and dusted on the spot. ( the creditor knows it will take atleast 12 months and 4-5 court visits to get the whole amount, and may cost them $6-7,000, [most of which is cost they can not pass on] to recovery the extra $5,000, so they often cut their losses and take the $5,000)

If an agreement is reached at mediation, the court registrar will issue an order detailing the term of the agreement.

To recover a debt entirely will take many visits to court and quite a lot in terms of time and money ( usually 12-18 months, and there is no certainty they will get the money ), application fees will be charged to the debtor, but the creditors time generally is not.

[apache]

I fully support bonding, and I fully support paying it back. It's give and take between Pilots and the companies.

and it is THIS sort of attitude which is WHY pilots are now bonded!
20 years ago, there was no such thing.

In years gone by, pilots, especially in regionals, were getting a lesser salary for the first three years, then in the 4th year, jumped by quite a margin. THIS is how the return of service worked.

Nowadays, companies STILL pay less in the first three years... AND either bond you, or make you pay up front. WE have given, and THEY have taken.

Maybe if these companies addressed the REAL issue, ie "WHY are all our pilots so quick to leave?" ... then this wouldn't be an issue.

pesonally, GG, I think that that is a ridiculous statement you make.

If I find out who you are, I'll blacklist you with as many aviators as I can.

are you in management? I just can't get over this statement.

[The Green Goblin]

pesonally, GG, I think that that is a ridiculous statement you make.

Quote:
If I find out who you are, I'll blacklist you with as many aviators as I can.
are you in management? I just can't get over this statement.

Of course not.

When I started out in the middle of last decade, Pilots in regionals paid for endorsements.

If you wanted to work for Qlink, cough up a Dash 8 endorsement. Want to work for Skippers? Pay for a Metro endorsement etc.

It was only after the events of 2007/2008 that companies started bonding new employees en mass. There were a few that paid prior to that. However the vast majority did not.

We certainly don't want to go back to pay for endorsements in the regionals as well as the airlines. Where will it end?

Any aviator that has done a runner in the regionals I have been involved with has had their name run through the mud from that point on, with both management and with their peers. IMO too bloody right.

GG

[Josh Cox]

GG,

If I find out who you are, I'll blacklist you with as many aviators as I can.

I would have to agree with Apache, IMHO that statment presents a very poor image of you.

[The Green Goblin]

Perhaps I was being a little harsh, but I believe it is up to us as Pilots to work with companies, to ensure both our needs and theirs are met.

We as Pilots, need to get experience to get another foot up the greasy pole and they need stability in their Pilot groups.

If they ask for 2 years, and you agree, then you should be held accountable to their cost of training you. If you leave prior to the agreed term - you should compensate them. If you are not prepared to do this, you should not accept the job and 'free' training the company will provide you. You should buy your own endorsement and be a free agent instead (and we all know how I feel about this).

GG

[waren9]

For once I agree with GG

If you are man enough to sign an agreement, atleast be man enough to honour it.

If you dont like the terms, dont sign it.

[tmpffisch]

Funny the AFAP hasn't been mentioned here yet. I thought they've helped argue quite a few bond related complaints.

I agree, if you're man enough to sign it, live up to your side of the deal. If you don't like the deal you're getting, negotiate it! The company just wants to see value in their investment.

[apache]

If you don't like the deal you're getting, negotiate it! The company just wants to see value in their investment.
never heard of a pilot telling the prospective employer that they dont like the deal, lets negotiate... AND get the job!

[Horatio Leafblower]

In years gone by, pilots, especially in regionals, were getting a lesser salary for the first three years, then in the 4th year, jumped by quite a margin. THIS is how the return of service worked.

20 years ago, how many Jet jobs were about?

20 years ago, did we have QF+JQ+DJ+ umpteen o/s carriers with access to Australia?

No Apache, when you and I learnt to fly 20 years ago it was expected that you would spend average 5-10 years in GA and regional airlines before you got to look at a "major".

Then, as now, you would drop everything as soon as they called you - the difference is that to fuel their growth the 'majors' (as JQ and DJ are) are drawing guys out of the regionals much earlier than before.

The regionals are facing massive (and growing) regulatory costs, massive demand growth (and wages pressure) for LAMEs, and simultaneously a drop in (a) rural and regional economies and (b) customer pricing expectations.

I am not advocating a decrease in pilot wages but are regional airlines merely charitable organisations for the training of Jet Pilots? St Vincent de Rex? Pelican Brothers College of Christ?

A bond, as noted above, is an agreement for a return of service. 20 years ago you could take a man at his word - that is, sadly, less often the case today.

If you agree to 2 years of service, you do it. :=

If you agree to pay your pilots $5000 of deferred salary on their first anniversary, you do that too :suspect:

The world has changed and we can either grow up and live with it, or die as bitter and twisted old men :=

[tmpffisch]

never heard of a pilot telling the prospective employer that they dont like the deal, lets negotiate... AND get the job!

I was thinking more of internal promotions rather than a new employee. Negotiating with a prospective employer would probably be a deal breaker in a lot of circumstances.

[apache]

Horatio....
agreed. but that is not the point of the thread.
These guys DID agree to a bond.
they AGREED that they had broken the bond, and AGREED to pay the money owing.
So far, I think that these pilots HAVE acted like gentlemen,and professionals. it is the COMPANY who is acting like a spoilt brat here.

I realise that times have changed, and that pilots now have more choice. Still the argument stands though... "why don't companies address the real issue of why their pilots are leaving in droves!"

it still irks me that some companies are making record profits, paying their managers HUGE bonusses, skiting about how they have LOWERED airfares, then use the tired old lines like yours...The regionals are facing massive (and growing) regulatory costs, massive demand growth (and wages pressure) for LAMEs, and simultaneously a drop in (a) rural and regional economies and (b) customer pricing expectations.

to deny any real salary increases.

[FOCX]

Any lawyers reading this thread as this must be the oddest class action suit I've heard of.

[PLovett]

My now dim legal memory is that bonds are illegal. IIRC it was a WA case concerning a FO who left a company (believe it was Cobhams but may be wrong) and they tried to recover the bond. The court found that a bond was a restraint on freedom of choice in the workplace and was akin to a form of slavery.

That is why the modern version, in the absence of the prospective employee having to pay for the endorsement, is in the nature of a personal loan from the company to the person. It comes under the law of contract and is enforceable.

However, if you are in a situation where you think you are bonded and want to walk, DO NOT rely on my ancient memory. GET legal advice. You may detest lawyers but in such a situation they can save a lot of nastiness.

[remoak]

Bonds may be a contract but just leave when you want to, in general your going to go overseas anyway so tell them to shove it!

Yep have to agree with GG. To act like that is to demonstrate a complete lack of character, not to mention being somewhat dishonest.

I would certainly like to know who you are to ensure that I never hire you by mistake (and it WOULD be a mistake, people who are dishonest in small things tend to be the same way in bigger things as well).

Sadly, this sort of thing is indeed the reason we now have bonds. Better watch out, being overseas doesn't necessarily protect you from collection action.

[Tankengine]

Go into any job or bond with open eyes!
I was bonded for two years by my current employer for an endorsement, no problem as I have been there 23 years! [and received another 4 jet ratings]:E
A previous employer had paid for an endorsement only 2 months before and I left with short notice so I paid him back some of that endorsement [maybe 50% of his cost] - I thought that was the honourable thing to do.:)

[Sunfish]

Green Goblin:

A bond is a gentleman's agreement. As professional aviators, it is up to us to act like professionals in everything we do.


The Goblins opinion is, to put it mildly, quaint, archaic, fanciful and totally technically wrong.

By definition Gobbo, a "gentlemans agreement" is unwritten. It relies on the spoken word alone. That is where the phrase "My word is my bond" comes from. That is where the highest bank credit rating term: "undoubted" comes from. It is a relic of the days when a persons word was his bond and it was commercial suicide to break your word.

In certain circles, where you obviously don't operate, there are still such agreements made every day, for example parking money overnight on the strength of a phone call, or obtaining credit in the Melbourne fruit and vegetable market. However employment law is not a realm for anyone to talk at all about "gentlemen" let alone when making an agreement for Two reasons.

1) By definition, if it is a writing, it ain't a Gentlemans agreement.

2) But more importantly it takes Two Gentlemen, acting and then behaving like Gentleman, to make a Gentlemen's agreement. If your employer turns out to be a vindictive untrustworthy piece of manure, then your fanciful belief that you have some how to behave like a "Gentleman" in the face of deceit and dishonesty is both farcical and misguided.

Furthermore, the idea that to be "professional" you some how need to be a "gentleman" is archaic. Your current employers would love you to believe that. It gives them an advantage in negotiations to see you shackled like that, they have absolutely no such scruples.

Bonded Pilots should strictly apply the letter of the law. Your employer has no "gentlemens agreement" with you, and will not behave like a "gentleman" towards you when it doesn't suit them.

You are appealing to archaic concepts of professional standards of behaviour that no longer exist. I have first hand experience of the behaviour of "Gentlemen" who hold themselves to be of a far higher standard than Airline management, and who lie, cheat, and swindle every day of the week.

To put it another way; any time someone appeals to you as a "Gentleman", grab your wallet and hang on to it tightly.

[SgtBundy]

Sunfish - if you see what GG reacted to it was the idea of just grabbing the hours and running, screw the operator regardless of the agreement (written or not).

Sure, cover your ass from the outset and fight fire with fire if someone is trying to screw you over. But to have no intention of honouring the agreement for your own gain from the outset is unprofessional and a poor show of character and just harms the next guy to come along.

[The Green Goblin]

To put it another way Sunfish, you're not a professional aviator, so why do you continue to have an opinion on this subject? I doubt you have ever been subject to a bond in your life for anything (I highly doubt anyone would have wanted to spend the money on you).

When I shake the MDs hand in a small company and say I will stay for 12 months for your endorsement, I consider this a gentleman's agreement.

If you don't, kiss my arse.

[Sunfish]

Goblin:

To put it another way Sunfish, you're not a professional aviator, so why do you continue to have an opinion on this subject? I doubt you have ever been subject to a bond in your life for anything (I highly doubt anyone would have wanted to spend the money on you).

When I shake the MDs hand in a small company and say I will stay for 12 months for your endorsement, I consider this a gentleman's agreement.

If you don't, kiss my arse.


The term "professional" and "Gentleman" are much over used these days, everybody knows it.

That is why it especially entertaining to read the comments of someone who thinks these terms still have much value.

What is unfortunately sad is anyone purporting to attempt to judge anothers conduct by reference to these terms outside their strict meaning and connect them in a way that implies "Professional" = "Gentleman".

I have stated that anyone who applies the term "professional" outside its strict meaning is either stupid or evil.

For example, I am not a professional pilot, I'm an unprofessional amateur, I admit it. That is correct usage.

The evil that I am trying to point out is the appeals by those who wish to take advantage of you to for you to "be Professional" or "be Gentlemanly" about some matter outside your professional field of expertise.

Examples of this exhortation can be seen, from memory, in postings regarding the previous QF LAME EBA, QANTAS was always exhorting the engineers along these lines.

Let me make it quite clear; the fact that you may be "Professional" does not mean that you cannot fight like a rabid hyena for what you want. You don't have to flop around like a wet lettuce just because you think you are required to be "gentlemanly" in negotiation.

Furthemore, anyone who has had serious commercial negotiations involving lawyers - "professionals" - knows perfectly well that their behaviour is not only gentlemanly, but is often totally and completely unprofessional.

As I said, if anyone invokes professionalism outside a technical discussion of your immediate competence, or invites you to be Gentlemanly, hang onto your wallet!


And Gobbo, as for having a "Gentleman's agreement" with a "Managing DIrector" that you just met, how do you know you are dealing with a Gentleman? Do you think all people who call themselves "Managing Director" are automatically Gentlemen? Especially in the Aviation industry?

If I were you in that situation, I'd follow up with a letter or email that confirms the arrangement in writing.

Furthermore, and getting back to the original subject. A lawyer I once employed taught me that the fatal flaw in most agreements is that they do not spell out the process of terminating the agreement and most importantly the rights and responsibilities of each party after this happens.


To put that another way; Saying "This offer expires on such and such a date" doesn't cut it. After that, what?

And a P.S. Giving a pilots details, unannounced, to a debt collector is most certainly ungentlemanly, but what do you expect from modern management?

[bushy]

This is an important thread. People are (mostly) logically discussing an important subject, and there is useful information being presented.

Training is expensive, and is a valuable asset if you have done it. It is also a cost to companies and they like to retain the services of those they train. If there is lots of mobility, there is much greater of training cost.

There was a time when endorsements were, or appeared to be free, as a reasonable return of service was common without any pressure.

Today that is not always the case, and GA is flooded with lots who have no intention of staying any longer than they have to. This is now spreading to the scheduled operators, and regional airlines seem to have the same thing happening. Scheduled airlines are not immune from this "attitude creep"
Money is the major motivator for both the operator and the pilot, so money is the solution.

So prepaid cadetships financed by the employer is a a way to reduce some of this mobility and give pilots a reasonable chance of the job they want. Some means of ensuring a return of that training cost seems reasonable. Maybe the cost can be refundeded after a reasonable period. And the employer also has a manageable, planned, predictable supply of new pilots.
This way, pilot wannabies can also get finance for training, and reasonable expectation of a job. This should help develope a positive attitude.

The present system relies on self funded pilots who trained themselves for non existent jobs and waited for years in an unwanted GA job. When the expansion time comes they may not be available as other airlines may also be expanding.

[apache]

gentlemens agreement, or legal obligation aside, the point I was trying to make, is that the company involved had, either deliberately or accidentally, given wrong details to a collection agency which had implications down the line for the pilots who WERE repaying their bond.

the wrong details were given EVEN though the pilots HAD updated their contact details with the company prior to leaving, and HAD tried to contact the company throughout the repayment process... all to no avail. Is it arrogance from the company involved? mismanagement? a clerical stuff up? or a deliberate message to current employees thinking about leaving?

i am guessing a combination.