Farnborough Departures

[Capt Dry Tanks]

I know that clearance to join CAS is normally issued once transferred to TC and this sometimes involves levelling off for a short period at 3400ft. However, I am curious to know if it is feasible to get a clearance to join CAS, prior to departing Farnborough, so that the minimum time is spent outside CAS?

A colleague of mine claimed that clearance to join CAS can be arranged prior to departure, if Farnborough are notified during engine start? Not something I have heard before, so I hope this is perhaps a better place to ask rather than on the R/T.

[Not Long Now]

Theoretically yes, practically, no, and certainly not if LF are asking during startup. The problem is that if a clearance is issued, TC then have to provide separation from 'the clearance' not 'the plane'. For example, if you were cleared to join on track Goodwood climbing to 5000 say, (although that would leave CAS again if not climbed, but that's another matter) then KK SAM and KENET departures would have to be stopped as they are not separated from LF climbing to 5000 to GWC. Now why do we treat KK as more important than LF you may ask. Well, we don't, it's just that with the relative traffic volumes generated, it's easier and better for the overall traffic flow if you give a remain outside to the quiter places rather than stopping traffic from the busier ones. This is however changing somewhat as certain traditionally smaller quiter airfields expand.
Who knows what the future holds.

[Capt Dry Tanks]

That is what I thought to be honest, so thanks for clearing that up. I suppose the same could be said in relation to LF departures to CPT and LL SAM departures from one of the westerly runways?

When sat outside CAS, is the issue of a clearance to join CAS a function of time or position? One colleague of mine stated a interesting preference for flying at minimum clean speed whilst outside CAS and waiting to join after departing LF. His reasoning for this is that the aircraft is more manoeuvrable and in a worst case scenario, there is more time to 'see and avoid' whilst under a basic service. All valid points, however if you normally need an aircraft in a specific position before further climb is issued, one could argue that a bit more 'coal on the fire' would decrease the time spent outside CAS.

[Not Long Now]

It's really a function of where planes are relative to each other rather than your absolute location or an abstract time reference. When airborne, if LF call TC we can virtually always give a joining clearance as we can see you and your relative position to the conflicting traffic, it's just if you're not airborne we have to guess when you will be, and where other traffic might be when you do appear. The issue then becomes is it quicker for LF just to transfer you to TC to give you the clearance, or for them to call for it. This usually depends on the conflicting traffic outside CAS in your vicinity. If there is any, LF calling would be best as they are quite rightly reluctant to transfer to TC whilst there is conflicting traffic, as TC are only allowed to provide a basic service. If there's nobody else around, transferring still with the remain outside for TC to join is best as it saves the time of the phonecall, which may not be answered immediately.
As for flying slowly, sounds very sensible to me. The chances of having accelerated away from one conflicting traffic are probably the same as having accelerated into conflict with something else.
And yes, any direction is the same, it's a very busy section of the world out there.

[chevvron]

Farnborough should be transferring you 'clean' ie not heading towards unknown traffic, and the chance of unknown traffic appearing ahead of you after they instruct you to change frequency and before you're climbed into controlled airspace is very small because of your altitude. As the Farnborough departure controller will be using the radar head at Farnborough, they will be able to see all potential conflictions. I personally used to hold on to departures until I could climb you higher than 3400ft eg 4400 or 5000, but since I retired, this practice seems to have lapsed.
Farnborough had a request from Terminal Control many years ago (early'90s) not to keep phoning to co-ordinate a climb into controlled airspace, so these requests should be limited to those cases where there is observed conflicting traffic, and sometimes a 'switched on' controller at TC will phone Farnborough to offer a climb into CAS. I often used to 'bend' the rules by putting departures via BCN on a heading which allowed them to climb to 5000 without inadvertantly entering CAS without a clearance, but once again I don't think anyone does this nowadays.
There is one circumstance where you will get a 'joining' clearance prior to takeoff however. When a Royal Flight is arriving at or departing from Farnborough, temporary controlled airspace (CAS{T}) will be established within a 5 or 10nm radius of Farnborough. This used to be class A, but is now class D, but in any case if you time your departure right (CAS{T} is always notified well in advance) you will be in controlled airspace as you get airborne!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Not a regular to FAB but always impressed at the coordination between them and us.
Now just sort Lasham out and all will be happy.

As an aside is the lower airspace service operated from FAB (EGLF) if not then where is it located.

glf

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Now just sort Lasham out and all will be happy.>>

You need to discuss that with Talkdownman!

Farnborough Radar is at Farnborough.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

even if the breakfast is slightly expensive....glf

[AJArkley]

<<Farnborough Radar is at Farnborough.>>

And what a nice Radar Room it is too!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Next time I am in FAB, I will try to visit..... Glf

[chevvron]

All 3 LARS sectors are in the same room at Farnborough as Farnborough Approach Radar. The LARS workstations all have two radar displays allowing the individual controllers to look at two different radar sources from a choice of five(Farnborough, Pease Pottage, Heathrow 23cm, Heathrow 10cm and either/or Stansted 10cm/Debden 23cm), whilst the radar approach controller only has one display and fewer radar source options.
When it's not too busy, approach is often bandboxed with LARS West (the trick here being to be able to predict when it will get busy and split the two before it does!) whilst LARS East can be bandboxed onto the LARS North positiion.
glf: When you say 'sort Lasham out', do you mean upgrade the ATC service or get rid of the gliders?