Clearance to cross airway IFR - who do you call?

[englishal]

Assuming IFR in the UK sense of IFR OCAS not on a flight plan, pilot in suitable aeroplane with IR flying IAW IFR....

How to get a clearance to cross an airway IFR and who do you call? For example say I decided to head down to lands End, there is an airway crossing exeter at about FL65. Say I wanted to fly down at FL100, routing EX, LND would I just call Exeter and ask to transit the airway? Something tells me it is not that easy in the UK, so grateful for any advice.

Thanks.

[mad_jock]

Depends....

You would ask your current service provider to gig it up for you and they should transfer you to the approprate agency that could sort it out for you.

It might well be that Exeter "has" that bit of airspace so can give you the transit or will be able to get you a clearance depending on thier workload. If you were not talking to anyone a request to london info would get you transfered to the approprate agency.

And if you can't get through to anyone due to RT saturation london Mil is always a good joker to have in your back pocket down that way and can usually clear you across without transferring you.

Now please bare in mind my experence is doing this sort of thing in a Multicrew CAT Turboprop I presume you would get the same responce as GA.

[Johnm]

If the airway is Class A you can't enter it unless you have an Instrument Rating you can only transit the base at right angles to it

UK AIP ENR 1.1

4.1.6.1.1 Aircraft may, without ATC clearance, fly at right angles across the base of an en-route section of an Airway where the lower limit is defined as a Flight Level.

4.1.6.1.2 Powered aircraft may cross an Airway in VMC by day without compliance with the full IFR requirements in relation to the aircraft equipment provided that the pilot holds a valid Instrument Rating and that clearance is obtained from the appropriate ACC.

Of course you can cross under any conditions if you have both kit and IR and a clearance from whoever is the controlling authority. In the case described if you can't get to London control Exeter or Plymouth Mil might be able to get it for you.

[englishal]

Ok, thanks. I have an IR and next time will ask Exeter.

Ta...

[mad_jock]

As a matter of interest who would you normally be talking to when approaching that area?

You might have a bun fight though with who you talk to for most of the way to Landsend.

Newquey will be quite happy to give you a radar service until you are decending into landsend but for some reason Landsend seem to want you to ditch that and come onto thier procedural service which seems a bit arse about tit to me, but I presume its local politics. They were a bit upset when I elected to stay with Newquey until I was closer.

[IO540]

It has to be somebody like Exeter; you cannot just call up London Control directly unless you have just filed a Eurocontrol IFR flight plan (AFAIK).

However, this ought to be done in plenty of time. It can take 5-15 mins IME to get an IFR clearance into Class A, on a Eurocontrol flight.

I never never succeeded in getting a "popup" clearance into Class A in the UK, but crossing a small piece of it is a different thing.

you can only transit the base at right angles to it

Don't you think that is a stupid rule?

Apart from anything else, ICAO says that the boundary between two airspace classes taken on the classification of the less restrictive of the two, so the base of a typical UK piece of Class A is Class G.

[englishal]

As a matter of interest who would you normally be talking to when approaching that area?
Normally Exeter, Plymouth Mil, Newquay, Lands End. On the way back Lands End will often hand you off to Newquay with a squwark already (if asking for a traffic service).

[mad_jock]

I would phone up Exeter and just ask them whats the best way of doing it.

Or post the question in the ATC forum.

[EGTE]

I have often heard Exeter ATC relaying a clearance received from London/Swanwick to an aircraft wishing to cross the airway. If you ask your ATC service provider to arrange transit then Exeter will confirm it when you contact them.

[Roffa]

If you are already talking to an ATC unit, ask them to negotiate the crossing clearance.

If you are not talking to anyone, ask London (or Scottish as appropriate) Information at least 10 minutes flying time from the intended crossing point.

The controlling authority for the airway is the third and worst choice.

See the AIP ENR 1.

[Fuji Abound]

Been that route many times on route Newquay or Perranporth. There is no issue crossing the base - Exeter will co-ordinate with Bristol and you will usually be talking to Exeter unless you are well North. You can expect to be given a higher level for the crossing as may suite you and them.

[VMC-on-top]

Powered aircraft may cross an Airway in VMC by day without compliance with the full IFR requirements in relation to the aircraft equipment provided that the pilot holds a valid Instrument Rating and that clearance is obtained from the appropriate ACC

I've never understood the rationale for that? So, you could be flying along in VMC, pootling about in a knackered spam can, most of the equipment doesn't work, you may not have DME, VOR or ADF BUT if you have an IR, you can cross through it!?

Yet, I have an IMCR, I have DME etc. etc. and yet I need to duck down to get underneath it?

I appreciate the need to discourage PPL's from crossing airways but without any minimal equipment, the logic gates are flapping!?

[fisbangwollop]

Call "London Information" at least 10 minutes prior to your intended crossing, the longer the better....they will get you sorted and hand you off to the appropriate sector for crosing.

[Pace]

We do make life hard. I have flown N864 low level in a twin to Cornwall many times. Firstly where are you coming from? Not Exeter itself!!! Lets take a trip From WAL direct BCN. Chances are you will drop below N864 towards BCN.
Contact Cardiff who have jurisdiction over airspace around BCN. They will clear you through IFR in that chunk of airspace.Direct to LND Keeps you clear.
From another direction you may cross near Exeter! who are you working in the bit towards that airspace? Ask them to arrange a crossing clearance maintaining Fl100! Give them an estimate.
Use the unit you are working in the cruise. London Military are very good for an OCAS trip of that length and FL. Whover you are using before that point for a RAS make the request with them.
If your not using anybody Old London info will do.
London Mil have often taken it for granted and arranged a clearance for me without request and will give a procedural crossing.

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

Call "London Information" at least 10 minutes prior to your intended crossing


Why would you do that?

you are going to get a squawk for the crossing and a radar service which London Info is not going to give you. They will hand you off to Exeter, Bristol or Cardiff.

OK, if all else fails and you really dont know who to talk to I guess that will do, but I dont see your being at FL65+ looking for an airways crossing not receiving a service currently and having no idea who you might be talking to. Sorry to be harsh, but on this occasion I wonder if you should be there if you are so ill prepared.

[kharmael]

RAS? Surely you either mean Deconfliction Service or something entirely different? :confused::cool:

[soaringhigh650]

How to get a clearance to cross an airway IFR and who do you call?


If you're not already in receipt of some en-route service, have a look at ENR 3.1 (Lower ATS routes) in the AIP for the frequencies for that airway.

Remember that you cannot enter a Class A airway unless you have an Instrument Rating. A bit stupid really, particularly when the weather is great.

[IO540]

I bet you that those "airways" are not exactly brimming with traffic at GA levels...

What is the rate of climb of a 737, etc?

[englishal]

Thanks all. I know I cannot enter an airway without an IR - so it is lucky I have one !

Actually I wouldn't bother with London Info as I'd be speaking to Yeovilton first then exeter, getting a radar service..

Next time I am down that way I'll just ask Exeter for a crossing clearance and see where that takes me ;)

[Pace]

RAS? Surely you either mean Deconfliction Service or something entirely different?

Sorry my poor shorthand I just meant "a Radar Service". RA S
On a full IFR trip I have in the past just been dumped by the controller to London Info.
Once having been sent all over the place coming from the south East to the North west UK I ended up at FL100 near CPT when I should have been on an airway up near Birmingham :ugh:
The bemused controller sent me north west from CPT with the instruction to call London info (This was just on top of solid cloud FL100 with with cloud all the way down to approx 1500 foot base! Not very amusing)
With Brize now closed at 1700 other than London Mil it can be almost impossible to get a radar service OCAS in certain areas.
Had there been an airway across my path the London info would have had to get the clearance and would have had to pass me to that sector controller for the crossing.

What I am trying to say here is that no two trips are the same. Since the military decided to close up for good chunks of the week flying OCAS is a hit and miss affair. Depending on your trip time could even mean that some airports have shut shop so not even their services are available.
You may have to deal with London or Scottish info or get a higher level service through London Mil. Use what you have got to work for you and that includes getting crossing clearances.

Pace

[egffztzx]

Hi all,

If you want to cross airway N864 between the Exeter overhead and TALGA (N of BCN) between base levels and FL165, call Cardiff on 119.15 - the airspace belongs to Cardiff (between 0600 and 2300).

You'd be surprised at the amount of traffic in that bit of airway at the lower levels.... Arrivals and departures from Exeter, Cardiff, Bristol, Filton and a good number of airways trainers.

[englishal]

thanks for that.

[Pull what]

Air Traffic Control Centres (ACC)
Basic Service is also provided by ACCs (Callsign London Information and Scottish Information) through an FIS Officer (FISO) operating on specially allocated RTF channels. In addition to the normal Basic Service, described above the FISO
will:
(a) On receipt of a request for joining or crossing clearance of Controlled Airspace or Advisory Routes either:

• Inform the pilot that he should change frequency in time to make the request direct to the appropriate ATC Unit
at least 10 minutes before ETA for the entry or crossing point
Or
• Obtain the clearance from the appropriate ATC Unit himself and pass it to the pilot on the FIR frequency.

[wsmempson]

Western Radar 132.3 would probably be my choice?

[welkyboy]

The original post is nearly 5 years old, why resurrect it???

[welkyboy]

Or even 4 years old!!

[mad_jock]

because more than likely because its an age old problem in the UK and it hasn't changed a bit.

[BillieBob]

One thing that has changed: Remember that you cannot enter a Class A airway unless you have an Instrument RatingYou now cannot fly under IFR in any airspace without holding an instrument rating.

[mad_jock]

You can in the UK ;-)

There are some notable bits of class A airway you can go in but its a special. No instrument rating in fact no engine either.

[BillieBob]

Not under IFR - FCL.600 refers

[mad_jock]

I was replying to the

Remember that you cannot enter a Class A airway unless you have an Instrument Rating

You can but it needs to be VMC and daylight