Afraid to fly with you?

[AdamFrisch]

I've noticed that many friends, family and acquaintances are a little bit reluctant to go flying in small aircraft with me. I'm not known for being reckless or a maverick when it comes to other forms of transport, so I doubt it's me. Yet, it's there. I've never raced cars or bikes. I drive quite geriatric, in fact - slow and practical cars are the ones I've mostly owned.

Many of them have kids, so I assume there's some cerebral barrier and apprehension to stepping in to a small aircraft, but still. These are people who are not risk adverse otherwise. I don't know what frightens them - is it the small aircraft, the age of the aircraft or is it the fact that I as a pilot am not a professional?

Once they have flown with me, they normally love it and want to come back, it's just that initial mental hump they have to get over.

Anyone have similar experiences?

[IO540]

Sure; a lot of people will never get into a small plane.

The worst example I saw was a date who almost got sick when seeing a picture of one, but then she was a proper bunny boiler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_boiler) anyway :)

IMHO, in most cases you can't change it and I wouldn't try. A lot of people are petrified to get into a 747 but they force themselves because they have no real choice if they want a fancy holiday.

The "unsure" ones can be persuaded so long as you make it a nice smooth flight on a nice day, no tricks, no barrel rolls :)

[BackPacker]

I noticed that their attitude changed after I hadn't been able to kill myself after a year or so of getting my license, and the few relatives that did go up with me came back (in one piece) with good stories.

I guess flying a light aircraft, even as a passenger, is just so wildly out of their comfort zone that for some the step is simply too big.

Oh, and maybe they've always seen pilots as the supreme skygods, and can't believe you're one of them now. What surprises people most, I noticed, is not the fact that I can fly an airplane, but that I'm allowed to do so without supervision.

[blueandwhite]

Lots of people come once. Never known someone to come for a second trip. :\:\:\

Seriously, some will, some wont, some love it, some hate it. You cant please all the people all the time.

I took up a couple, she was quite before but keen, he was very vocal about looking forward to it. He was sick, turned out he always gets travel sick. :ugh: She was fine, upside down, straight up, straight down she loved it all.

Take you que from the passenger, keep an eye on them and be sensitive to how they are feeling.

[DC3freightdog]

It is about trust and a good experience. Explaining the flight and briefing the passengers is very important. Some people have bad experiences from by wanna be Top Guns. As a flight instructor I sometimes ask myself how did he get his license. Some of my clients I would not be so happy sitting in the back. On private pilot with a C172 tough that it is normal to have a 1100ft/min decent rate on short final. And during the debriefing he mentioned that no one wants to fly with him. Fly smooth, gently rotate, shallow bank turns and people want to come back. Fly with an experienced instructor and ask for critique.

[rkgpilot]

Yes Adam, I have had similar experiences. I think the key question is, are they afraid/reluctant to go flying with you or are they afraid/reluctant period?

The latter group as IO540 suggests, is perhaps not for you to deal with. I just let such folk know that, if they ever decide they do in fact want to fly, then I'd be happy to take them.

If it's you that's the concern, and it's their first time out, they probably can't accept that you're not a professional, as you suggest. This group will probably come round, given time. I have taken such slightly nervous people up in a hired club 4 seater along with an instructor whilst having a check-ride and it helped.

If it's that they won't come back for a second go, then DC3's comments are about right I guess. I haven't met anyone in this group yet, but then again, I've not been flying long and there's still time :-)

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Mate its amazing how many people you find who suddenly aren't so keen at the 'real' prospect of getting in a small aircraft.

I have now found that 3 of my close friends, really hate flying, i'd never spotted it but it seems pretty clear in hindsight, these people didn't refuse point blank in public but had a very quiet word in private as they felt embarrassed about it. These are people i have driven, taken fishing in my boat etc. I have even baby sat their kids, they trust me. I guess its just a pathological fear of flying? Some however love it, jump at the chance and offer to pay for the fuel...love those guys!

I have come to assume that at any one time the worlds airliners are full of people who really don't want to be there, I think we as pilots are the weird freaky exception.

[IO540]

She'd been a farm girl

Did you get her into the hay barn afterwards?

[stickandrudderman]

She was fine, upside down, straight up, straight down she loved it all
And what about the flying?;)

[Mechta]

A lot of people just don't have a clue what keeps an aeroplane in the air, so they are very stressed at the prospect of flying, as it is akin to giving control of their life to a magician . This probably accounts for some of the aggressive, out of character behaviour seen at airports and in airliners from normally rational people.

In the case of people you have known a long time, sometimes it is their having to adjust to you having acquired a new skill, and for some strange reason they would rather trust someone they have only just met to fly them, because he has been a pilot all the time they've known them, rather than the (now grown up) kid next door, who they remember falling off his tricycle, but is now a pilot.

[PilotPieces]

I have only had my PPL for a year and I have given up with anything more than simply replying "Yeah, I could take you up if you wanted".

I have only ever taken three people flying: My dad, ex-pilot, my boss, current pilot, a friend aspiring to be a pilot.

Seems that 99% of people would love to go flying, of which only 10% actually mean it, with only 1% actually turning up on the day without some crap excuse.

I think the reason is a combination of:

1. They don't think you are a real pilot because you don't have a uniform and you still go to work at an office.
2. They don't think its a real plane because it doesn't have 150 seats.
3. They don't think they will survive!

Their loss :ok:

[rans6andrew]

for those "almost ready to have a go" you can explain that they can chicken out at any time before the actual take off.

Sit in the aircraft whilst it is parked, if OK
do briefing, fasten seat belts etc, if OK
start engine, stay parked, don headsets and set for comfortable comms, if OK
taxi out, do checks, if OK
line up and roll, if OK

at any point up to the runway decision point you can change your mind and we can abort without actually going flying. Of course, once the wheels leave the ground you are committed to a 3 min circuit.

It worked for my Mum.

Rans6....

[mary meagher]

Face it, guys, these people are right to be reluctant.

What has the worst safety record? Private flying. Maybe you have 50 hours,maybe 350 hours. That's not a lot compared to how long you've been driving a car. Persuade your chums to have a proper lesson with a pro instructor, and stick to flying with fellow pilots who do know and accept the risk and can actually be useful in the right hand seat, like helping with lookout, nav, and RT. AND share the expenses.

Newbie pilots (and old ones too) who like to show off and turn their passengers green, should be tied down on a perpetual roller coaster and covered with vomit.

[Fuji Abound]

Never had anyone say no - it must be my natural charm. ;)

Mind you flown with a few instructors and wondered how they ever became instructors and driven with a few drivers (who have been driving all their lives) and wondered how they had survived that long.

[CanAmdelta1]

Most all would be pax have experienced a 2 axis world and they are completely at ease with it.

The 3 axis world is very foreign to them and coupled with their fear of the unknown, raises the anxiety.

Pick good flying days, brief them properly, and remember how you were on your first small plane ride.

[MichaelJP59]

Personally, I don't ask anyone to come flying but if they express an interest and are keen then I'll take them. Usually wait for them to ask a couple of times though!

I reckon most people, rightly or wrongly, would put flying in a light aircraft in the same danger category as skiing, motorcycling, parachuting or sailing. Some people are suited, others not.

[MizzFlyer]

I have counted amongst my friends a skydiver and a pot holer - I'd never try their sports and they've shown no inclination to come flying.

Just tell people there's a spare seat, and if nobody wants to share then go solo and enjoy yourself.

I'm glad most people don't want fly. It'd get awfully busy up there.

MzFl

[Oldpilot55]

There are a couple of pilots in our club that I am afraid of and will not fly with.

[IO540]

There are more than a couple of pilots in every club which nobody will fly with...

[John Miller]

I am very careful who I fly with. I was at the airfield a few years ago and one of my mates asked my missus if she'd like to go for a flip in his Citabria. I took her to one side and even though I'm not one to spoil her fun, I said on no account is she to fly with this guy - his approach was too lassaiz faire and he loved doing aerobatics over the airfield. he was a real nice guy and competent enough but I always had a bad feeling about his attitude. Two weeks later he wiped himself and his Citabria out doing low-level aerobatics.

[A and C]

The fire crew at an airfield near me have a list of the people who they think are likely to kill them selfs in a light aircraft and don't let the work experence kids go flying with them.

[FREDAcheck]

This always comes as a shock to we pilots, but quite few people actually don't want to go flying. I know it's hard to credit, but I know a number people that regard it as a somewhat dangerous activity of no appeal. I don't think it's just me.:O

[maxred]

I once took an opportunity to assist a guy at out local base to tale his aeroplane down to Barcelona. I needed the experience. Various so called friends in the 'know' looked surprised but said nought. The trip was a near disaster, and as I rescued his IFR night approach into Perpignan, I clearly remember thinking- this is how you die. He made such mess of the procedure that only by the grace of god, and me getting visual with the airfield did we make it. The next morning we 'scudded' the coast round to Bagur VOR at 500'. I ryanaired it back home. I then learned his true history on my return to UK, a number of near fatalities and other horror stories. I wad actually truly pissed off that no one said, maybe they all thought they would get rid of two of us!!!!!:

I often say to people to come flying, you get the usual oh great, and then in the day they always appear to be 'busy'. You soon learn that your passion, is not nescessarily everyone elses. Same with a friend who has a yacht, I won't let my kids go sailing with him!!!

[Pace]

Afraid to fly with you? The problem is that if its family, friends, wives or girlfriends They really know you!

The guy who struts around wearing Ray bans and tries to emulate top gun is the same guy who cannot do the most basic repair job around the house.

he is the guy who gets man flu! The guy who stuck the cat in the microwave to dry off its wet coat! The guy who left the baby in the supermarket and forgot he had taken the baby shopping. He cannot even remember his own birthday nevermind hers! The guy who forgot where first gear was in the car and selected reverse ending up down an embankement into a canal ???
And they want to trust him with their lives ?


Pace

[John Miller]

I have a few stories about wayward pilots. In fact my best mate was one. He bought a twin to do his PPL and I eventually got the phone call from his instructor: "I'm fed up with him telling me what we're going to do every lesson. As you are his best mate, who also flies, I just want you to know we're recommending he stop flying altogether, in fact we have decided not to accept any more bookings. He's a natural but he can't be told anything and is completely fearless".

They were right - he had no time for pre-flights and treated the aeroplane like his car - get in and start up. A great guy too, who loved his toys (and still does). He took it remarkably well and I still got the phone calls to join his family on flying trips, which is where I wrote up many of my twin hours.

[Mark1234]

I've generally had the opposite experience, it may depend on how you put the question: "Would you like to sit in the aeroplane and pay half?" or "I'm going for a trip round <somewhere> tomorrow, spare seat if you'd like to come" :)

Obvious though it is, I'd also stress the importance of a calm relaxed attitude both before and during, explaining plenty and making it seem everyday/simple, rather than talking up how clever one is. I made a gliding mate (also a pilot) my first victim - he pointed out that he never wanted to hear me say 'oh cr*p' in an aeroplane, even if it was because I'd left my wallet in the car. For some reason that stuck with me!

Another thought is that while many of us know people we wouldn't fly with, at least we're in a position to judge - for most, it's a matter of blind trust.

[Pace]

Mark

There used to be a good marker for deciding whether you were happy with another pilot and that is whether you would be happy to trust your own two young children to go up for a flight with that pilot.

There are many I would not be happy to trust my kids (when they were Kids :E with

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

I'd worry more about the aircraft that the pilot.

Since I can (usually) fly the aircraft I will fly it from the right seat if needs really must, but the state of some aircraft, about which I can do little, other than refuse to fly in it, is of far greater concern.

I'd think twice about sitting in the back with some pilots.

[Mark1234]

Fuji - I'm inclined to disagree - if someone is PIC, they're PIC. If I'm not happy they can do that job, I'm not there (nor are any kids or family I might have). Equally I'm not having anyone on board who thinks they have the right to intervene with the flight (advice I'm happy to take, at my discretion).

Fighting over the controls is not a healthy picture, nor likely to have a happy outcome.

[TrafficPilot]

I had an slightly frightening experience as a PPL student/passenger a few years back.

I'd applied to fill a seat on a fly-in to a small unlicensed grass strip in the Midlands. I'd never met the Pilot before although we'd exchanged messages on a forum (not PPRuNe!).

The flight (in a PA28) went well until we reached the area of the grass strip. Despite having a GPS he couldn't find the strip so we spent a good 15-20mins flying around in circles trying to identify it. No problem there - I understand how difficult these things are to spot sometimes.

When we evetually did spot the strip he flew downwind and then lined up on an extended final. On short final (to this short grass strip with hedges at each end) I noticed our approach speed was 85kts! I wasn't sure what to do. Should I - a low hours PPL student and passenger mention the speed or just wait and see what happens. So I waited. And waited some more until I realised he wasn't slowing down. So I rather sheepishly said "are we ok on speed?" to which he looked at the ASI and said "think I'll go around on this one".

It was just as well we did go around. Another aircraft arriving earlier had gone into the hedge at the end of the strip.

Would I fly with him again. Nope! Had I been just a passenger with no flying experience I hate to think what could have happened.:ouch:

[IO540]

Yes, a tricky one. I must admit I am not keen on flying with people unless I know their "history", and nowadays I almost never do so.

It makes me very sad to read some of the AAIB reports where the pilot was quite obviously a complete cowboy and killed some passengers who probably had no clue what was happening until shortly before the very end. If somebody kills just themselves, I have no issue with that.

[Fuji Abound]

Fuji - I'm inclined to disagree - if someone is PIC, they're PIC. If I'm not happy they can do that job, I'm not there (nor are any kids or family I might have). Equally I'm not having anyone on board who thinks they have the right to intervene with the flight (advice I'm happy to take, at my discretion).

Fighting over the controls is not a healthy picture, nor likely to have a happy outcome.


Mark - you are correct, even more certainly when it comes to kids, family etc where they are not pilots.

As to someone intervening it is always a matter of last resort, and obviously there is more than an element of judgement. However I am not going to have someone fly me into the side of a mountain, power cables or spins. I have been in that situation on the first two. Unfortunately it is not always possible to be certain in advance that a pilot will be able to cope with every situation. You might not be happy with the intervention BUT if you think the intervention cant do any harm even if you disagree at that moment in time it is as well to find out rather than refuse to transfer control.

A good example - not visual, go around. Handling pilot does nothing. I said again - go around. Still does nothing. At that point I have control, full throttle and around we go. If I hadnt we would both be dead, with hills immediately beyond the go around point whatever the pilot thought, I am not hanging around to enjoy the debate and to find out I was right. I know that sort of thing should not happen and when you are not visual at the DH there should be no question from the handling pilot as to what he should do - unfortunately life is not quite like that. Neither of us had anything to lose by the handling pilot not accepting the go around call. Neither of us had anything to lose by transferring control. Having gone around we both now have the luxury of debating what went wrong. The alternative was to leave that luxury to the AIB. If I had got the wrong DH so what - nothing lost than pride, if the pilot has got the wrong DH nothing lost but both our lives.

If you ever find yourself in that situation please for me intervene and forget about all those stories of very annoying instructors and friends who want to intervene at every possible opportunity for no good reason. Back on the ground if you still disagree with me, by all means never fly with me again.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Mark1234,

Generally I agree, but a couple of years back I forcibly took control from somebody in the flare at night. At 40 feet...

[CharlieDeltaUK]

As a student PPL, I aspire to be safe and the type of person who can be entrusted with the lives of others. So, I promised myself that I would study properly for the exams, for example, rather than aiming just to pass. But, let's assume for a moment that most people have at least a degree of self-preservation and yet some still end up being the type of pilot who should take up another hobby. That means they are unconsciously incompetent.

How many such folk get a PPL in the first place? I'm not asking this so I can adopt a stance of indignation. I'm asking because, as a student, I'm trusting my instructor, my examiners etc to protect me from myself. In most skills, there is a stage where one is in the category of being unconsciously incompetent, and that's when you need others to make you aware of the gaps. Right now, I know my skills are limited because it's obvious. I assume there will come a time when I get to a stage where I'm more borderline, and that's the exact time when I want my FI (or examiner) to be very candid about my shortfalls and I'll carry on having lessons until the core skills are solid.

I have been offshore sailing for years and now I take other people's kids sailing for a sail training organisation. It was years after getting my yachtmaster qualification that I was ready to accept the trust of parents who don't know me before they drop off their kids at the marina. I sailed as the 'mate' during that interval and we had a regime where I got feedback after every voyage. I only became a skipper when I had enough confidence to know that I could keep the crew safe in all eventualities. It means I don't have the distraction of being stressed. Some folk take it as a blow to their ego if they aren't made skippers as soon as they get qualified, but the system prevails, at least it does in our organisation. I was rather hoping that this would be the norm for flying. Otherwise,, how does one avoid being the type of pilot who features on the "avoid" list?

[The500man]

I've flown with a particularly nervous passenger on a few occasions with only a few post ppl lessons. I knew he was generally okay in the aircraft if he was busy taking pictures and if I was pointing out things to look at, but one of the trips was to Clacton. It was probably my worst landing ever, including three or four smallish bounces (all done before the footpath) in a C172. Once things had settled down on the ground I looked over expecting to see a pale faced passenger, but he was absolutely fine.

Afterwards he said he wasn't worried because I was so calm. This made me think about one of the guys I'd met at my then flying group who acted so nervously on his pre-flight planning that he made me nervous just being around him! I can see why alot of people wouldn't want to be flown by a pilot that seems nervous.

I've only ever flown with instructors and non-flying passengers. Thinking about it carefully I'm not sure I'd be happy to sit in the back of an aircraft when a newly qualified pilot is flying!

[IFMU]

My wife is fearful of any kind of flying, including with me. Pre-wife she would go.

I won't fly with anybody who tells me how good they are.

-- IFMU

[Mark1234]

CharlieDelta - to answer your question with respect to the 'average' private pilot scene (i.e. not 2 crew ops as some have discussed). In my (limited) experience, it's not prevalent, but there are more than you would think out there. I would probably characterise it as an unsafe attitude, rather than unconcious incompetance.

They're generally perfectly capable of, and may even fly as a model pilot when an instructor is present, or they are being checked up on, but when they are not, either can't be bothered to, or don't feel they need to do the job properly, engage in questionable activity etc. Generally it leads to errosion of margins, and one day something comes along that surprises them, and they're way behind where they need to be.

It's an easy place to get into - the human animal isn't good at judging risk - we tend to work along the lines of "first time scary, 50th time it didn't kill me, so it must be safe". I've heard said that from 100-300hours (I think) is the most dangerous time of a pilot's life; you know enough to feel comfortable, and get yourself into trouble, but don't have the experience to get out :E

[englishal]

Yes, a tricky one. I must admit I am not keen on flying with people unless I know their "history", and nowadays I almost never do so.
A very wise thing and pretty much the same as me. I am very wary of flying with people I don't know, and would almost never sit in the back unless there is someone up front I completely trust, know their experience or the way they fly. This stems from several incidents post PPL with other low time pilots from showing off to bad decision making which could have ended very differently.