Too many instructors????

[AOB9]

I'm a part time PPL student. I'm learning to fly because it's always been an ambition. I have no aspirations to going commercial, my target is PPL with night rating. Training is expensive, money is tight and I'm flying approx. once every 10/14 days.

The flight school I'm attending appears to be packed to the roof with commercial wannabes, so I understand that the part time guy isn't crucial to their overall success.

However, I've had to have a gentle word this morning because todays instructor will the sixth different instructor in eight lessons. All of my instructors have been great guys and I'm not saying a word against any of them. But my gut instinct tells me that this is not the most effective way to learn anything, especially a skill such as flying.

How am I to get familiar/comfortable with my instructor in this situation and how is he/she going to get familiar with the formation of bad habits? Habits that could ultimately lead to me being a substandard/average pilot as opposed to a competent one.

Am I getting too excited about this, would anyone argue that multiple instructors is actually a good idea? And, finally is this situation going to lead to more hours training than would otherwise be necessary, i.e more cost to me?

[sunday driver]

This is a pretty familiar scenario

What worked for me (and still does for checkouts) is ...

Decide which instructor seems to gel with your learning style
Book your sessions well in advance
Politely but firmly book your session with the words "I'd like to book a lesson with Ellie Vator, please, in G-AFFE (always good to use a familiar steed to begin with)"
When they say "I'm sorry she/he's booked/sick/holiday/injail" be a bit flexible on dates/times and ask politely "When will she/he be available)?"

You are the customer and it's quite reasonable for you to exert a little control over how your (presumably) hard earned five grand is spent.

No-one has ever taken offence when I have used this approach.

Have fun!

SD

[ChampChump]

There'll be lots of experience along shortly to reply, so here's my take, based only on experience as a student, some time ago, and as a glider instructor at some stage. When I morphed into power flying, I had three for the mostpart, which would have been too many were I a complete novice. What I got though, if I attempted to use any of it as an excuse, was a dose of 'By now, you have enough gliding experience to cope with x or y' and of course, they were right.

It depends where you are in your training. In the early stages, you need continuity, I think, when perhaps alternating between two instructors is the most you could cope with. You very quickly learn one thing not on the syllabus: each instructor has his/her own style. Later on, when you are more comfortable with things, a change of instructor will not phase you and can be useful, adding new angles and opinions. The benefits can balance the perceived disadvantage of lack of familiarity.

It would seem from your post, though, that you are uncomfortable now and if you have already had to mention it, you know the answer. If you do a search, you will find that this subject has come up before and IIRC, most will agree that a quiet word with the CFI should work.

If the school is struggling to keep the wannabes in work in difficult times, it makes things harder for everyone, but a student is owed a certain amount of continuity. Six in eight lessons is too many (sounds like my early days in gliders) and more likely to deter an early student than encourage. Don't feel bad about speaking up; it may be no one has realised until you do so.

Good luck.

[BackPacker]

I agree. It might make sense to have lessons from a few different instructors early on to get to know the different instructors and find out which one suits you best (and at this time you're not really forming bad habits anyway), but after maybe five lessons you should continue with, preferably, one instructor for the core of your training.

It does make sense to fly with a different instructor every now and then though, to serve as a sort of "stage check". Instructors are human too, and they might miss something that'll be picked up by another instructor. But in those cases you really should be undertaking that lesson as a stage check/consolidation lesson, instead of a lesson where you're supposed to learn something totally new.

I guess the typical moments for such a stage check are pre-solo, pre-cross-country-solo and an end-of-course checkride, just before the exam.

[AOB9]

Thanks for the replys. As I said in my post I spoke with admin this morning and she did seem surprised that I had gone through so many instructors so quickly. I have a lesson today (spins) and will try and resolve the issue. I'll be back.

[FleetFlyer]

Thats a crazy number of instructors. I had a similar situation when learning to fly gliders, with a non-profit club and volunteer instructors I took what felt like far too long to get to solo because of having a different instructor each day. I knew I was good enough but the instructor of the day didn't because he didn't know me.

After a break of several years from flying I went and bought a flexwing and started taking lessons at a microlight school. I camped on the airfield each weekend and was one of only three students. My instructor remained the same and I soloed in under 5 hours. 2 of those hours were spent un-learning the urge to 'pull-back' to go up thing. This validated my feeling that I was competent and just needed a consistent teacher to bring on my training.

I then had another big break from flying and came back to it a couple of years ago and took 9 hours to solo so I guess either I'm getting worse or the official syllabus is now being more rigidly applied.

[chris-h]

I had a lesson today (spins)

Realy?

[ChampChump]

They might not be on each and every syllabus anymore but they are still taught.

[AOB9]

....... well incipient as opposed to full spins, (may do full spins at a later date) I was slightly relieved to be honest. Starting circuits next time.

Returning to the issue of instructors. My advice is to REQUEST a preffered instructor when booking. Everyone agrees that familiarity with an instructor is important at this stage but if "you don't ask you may not recieve".

I'm really enjoying it so far but I suspect things to get a bit more serious going forward.

Thanks for input :ok:

[Pilot DAR]

A0B9 (I think I remember you from Star Wars)

The advice you have received here is exactly as I see things.

Your learning in the early phases will be most easy with one, or a maximum of two instructors (assuming they co-ordinate well with each other). It is up to the school to recognize, and facilitate instructor availabilty to best suit your learning - you are the client! Much later in your learning, for reasons I'll come to, a few new instructors will be a good thing for you. It's not up to you to facilitate a group of time building instructor pilots.

When I took PPLA training long ago (back when a C 150 was $18 per hour), I was paired with only one instructor, and it went very well. Later, for more advanced training, I was paired with other instructors, and that was just fine.

When I did my PPLH training a few years back, I was equally paired with two instructors, but it went very well, as they constantly updated each other on my progress. Later in my training there, a third instructor did some training with me. This was good for me, in that, as I could demonstrate to him that I could fly to his satisfaction, I was not making it easy for him to see how I was doing this. Was it luck, or skill on my part? Into the lesson, he said, "okay, do that again (confied area approach and land) but this time give me a running commentary of everything you're thinking and considering as you do it, and your decision making." He was totally right. When I did this, he was completly satisfied, and I now knew why I had done it right - that's important! The "old" instructors knew they had taught me, but could not be sure I had retained it all, unless I spoke it. The two instructors also had very different teaching styles, and experience, so I gained the best of both.

As for spinning (a bit of thread drift), yes! Spin aeroplanes! Do it safely, and in accordance with all necessary approvals, but do not give up the opportunity to gain the valuable skills associated with this maneuver. Some are: Slow flight, reconzing correct control inputs, application and holding of full control inputs, unusual attitude recovery, and familiarization with unusual forces in flight.

Hopefully you will fly your (even just PPL) career without ever needing these skills, but still great to have. Spinning is a part of what I am required to do in planes as a part of testing. From time to time, I must spin with other pilots (usually because I'm not insured on a type I'm testing), and I have to spin. Nearly always, the pilot flying with me explains that it has been a long time since he/she has spun (some never). Unfortunate.

My spin testing of yesterday, was such a case. The pilot I was flying with told me that he had spun 172's many years ago. He took the opportunity to do a few spins after I was finished my testing, and did very well. He seemed very happy for a unique opportunuty, in an otherwise "spins prohibited" type.

Get all the good experince you can, whenever you can, you'll never know when you'll appreciate having it!

A bit more thread drift....

Here is a snapshot of the tail video during a spin entry (horizon in lower right). Maximum rate of descent = 9200 FPM, recovery = 2.8G (accelerometer equipped), and 5 knots short of Vne. Spins were Transport Canada permitted in the aircraft for these flight test purposes.

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Jims%20DAR%20Testing/Spintestingvideosnapshot.jpg

[NigelOnDraft]

AOB9...

RAF "practice", which I assume was dervied from some study/experience, is for a student to have a Primary and a Secondary instructor. If required you could fly with any instructor, but best efforts were made at the planning stage to fly with one of these 2.

In the event of encountering difficulties with progress, one of the "tools" considered early on was to swap your main instructor to see if that helped.

To me 6 in 8 is far too much change, especially at the early stages...

NoD

[Big Pistons Forever]

AOB9...


To me 6 in 8 is far too much change, especially at the early stages...

NoD

Absolutely

A completely unacceptable situation and one which does not speak well of the level of oversight the CFI is providing and the general competence of the school administrative staff. IMO there should be no changes of Instructors presolo unless there is a clear indication of a lack of progress or a personality conflict is getting in the way of the instruction. Either one should be become evident if the CFI were doing their job and regularly reviewing the progress of each student.

I recommend you decide which of the instructors you flew with best "clicked" with you and tell the CFI that you will only fly with that instructor.
You are the customer and have every right to insist that your needs come first. A threat to take your money elsewhere will definitely get the attention of management.

[Ryan5252]

OP,

Are you by any chance flying out of Newtownards? EGAD?

[Say again s l o w l y]

AOB9, change schools.

Anywhere that considers 6 instructors in 8 hours to be acceptable and that gets you spinning and into the circuit that quickly isn't worth a toffee.

[AOB9]

PILOT DAR, thank you for that valuable detailed information.....

Ryan 5252, I'm not flying out of EGAD and I'd rather not say where I am flying from, many of the staff at my school use pprune and I don't want to set up a conflict situation (for now).

I accept the generaally negative response to having gone through 6 instructors at this stage in my training. As you can see in my initial post I had a very strong feeling that this was indeed an unacceptable situation. I have (and will continue to) insisted on only one instructor now as I am going into the circuits. Should this not happen I WILL take my logbook to an alternative school, they are all much further away from my home but I will change school if I have to.

As for the "SPINS", I was not instructed on full spins, only incipient spins. ...and as for circuits, I am quite comfortable entering the circuit at this stage. I have had little problem with techniques demonstrated in my training to date so I presume circuits is the next natural step. At least that seems to be the flow of things in my Flight Training manual.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are a few of us on here who are fairly experienced FI's many of whom have posted on this thread.

I will guarantee you that after that many instructor changes and that short a time, you are NOT ready for the circuit yet.

One of the cardinal and very common sins commited by FI's, is to rush people into the circuit. 8 hours is simply not enough time, especially given the mucking about you've had.

You are not I'm afraid the best person to judge whether you are ready to move on or not. If you were, you wouldn't need an FI next to you!

Circuit details should not be used to polish your basic flying skills and another hour or two in the training area, will save you a lot of time (and money) in the circuit later.

This sort of treatment of students has me banging my head against the wall in frustration. It is simply not good enough.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are a few of us on here who are fairly experienced FI's many of whom have posted on this thread.

I will guarantee you that after that many instructor changes and that short a time, you are NOT ready for the circuit yet.

One of the cardinal and very common sins commited by FI's, is to rush people into the circuit. 8 hours is simply not enough time, especially given the mucking about you've had.

You are not I'm afraid the best person to judge whether you are ready to move on or not. If you were, you wouldn't need an FI next to you!

Circuit details should not be used to polish your basic flying skills and another hour or two in the training area, will save you a lot of time (and money) in the circuit later.

This sort of treatment of students has me banging my head against the wall in frustration. It is simply not good enough.


I would not say it is impossible that AOB9 could be ready for the circuit. There are some naturally gifted students out there that could easily be ready for the circuit in 8 hours, however I agree for most students in the situation described, moving on to the circuit now is probably not a good idea.

A test to see if you are ready is to take your hands off the controls at mid downwind. Are you steady at + - 50 feet of the correct altitude and does the nose stay steady, not pitching up and down at all with your hands off the wheel ? When you are on the final approach at about 500 feet above ground is the airspeed + - 5 kts of the proper approach speed and again does the nose stay in a the correct descending attitude with your hands off the wheel, not appreciably rising or falling on it's own ? If the answer is not yes to both questions then your general handling skills are not sufficiently developed and you should not be in the circuit yet

[Say again s l o w l y]

It's not impossible, however, it is unlikely. With 6 instructor changes in 8 hours, the chances of his training not being as good as it should be are very, very high.

Rushing students through the first few lessons seems to be a particular talent in the UK. With 8 hours on the clock and that much disruption in his training, then it's hardly surprising to think that things might not be as they should.

With a talented student and good instruction, then it is feasible to only take 10 hours to get into the circuit with no problems. AOB9 could be Bader reincarnated for all I know, but even the great Doug would struggle with that sort of training set-up!

[Big Pistons Forever]

It's not impossible, however, it is unlikely. With 6 instructor changes in 8 hours, the chances of his training not being as good as it should be are very, very high.



I agree and did not mean to imply that this situation was in any way desirable.

[AOB9]

A test to see if you are ready is to take your hands off the controls at mid downwind. Are you steady at + - 50 feet of the correct altitude and does the nose stay steady, not pitching up and down at all with your hands off the wheel

When you are on the final approach at about 500 feet above ground is the airspeed + - 5 kts of the proper approach speed and again does the nose stay in a the correct descending attitude with your hands off the wheel, not appreciably rising or falling on it's own ?



Yes and No in that order (IMO).

So, I'm not ready for circuits. There's an obvious problem when you have to come to a forum to be told you're not ready for a particular stage in flight training. I have to say that this type of confusion was not something I bargained for when setting out on gaining a PPL. The only solution going forward is to gat familiar with one (maybe two) instructors. Failing that I will either invest my hard earned cash in another hobby or move school. I have no intention of continuing to waste my time or money.:ugh:

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm afraid you aren't quite ready. Probably not a million miles away, but don't worry this is unfortunately nothing new. I've lost count of the number of people who've come on here in the last 10 years and asked a similar question to you.

As an FI I've had to deal with many students who've been rushed through the basics. As a CFI, this was something I dealt with, with my own team of FI's occasionally (not the 6 FI's in 8 hours stuff though, if I ever found something like that going on, then there'd be hell to pay) especially with the less experienced FI's.

Don't get despondent about it, just make sure you get the most experienced FI you can, or the most professional one at least. Try not to fly with hour builders who have one eye on an airline job, rather than both eyes on your progress.
Some are very good, but in general stick to the more grizzled FI's if you can.

As BPF mentions, once you can trim properly, fly straight and level without thought, climb and descend at set air speeds and rate of descents with good accuracy and have covered things like stalling, then you are ready to go into the circuit. Until you can free up enough capacity to fly the aircraft, do the checks, listen to the radio and respond to it, then all you are doing is wasting time in the circuit and you might actually go backwards as you get wound up and annoyed at a perceived lack of progress.

All the best with your training and you're already ahead of most by realising yourself that what has been going on isn't good enough.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

I had Three instructors (the club's full time compliment) and all of them taught me different and valuable things, Some had a more rigourous professional method of flying which passed on good habits (being AT altitude and AT speed not +/-) and some had highly valuable prictical advice, not just about flying the A/C but practical local weather knowlege and handling tips.

As for Spinning before the circuit?? what? we covered advanced stalls (as in stalling in the landing config) before going into the cuircuit, but i'm sure we didn't cover stuff like spinning or wing drops until later?

As for knowing when your ready, at some point you'll find yourself going downwind and saying "ho Hum this is taking a while" you've nailed your height, trimmed and are on approach speed and finished your checks.
I remember i was porposing around busy doing my checks and downwind calls i'd look up (yes i know- head out the cockpit plse) and it would be time to lower flap and turn base. there never seemed to be enough time!!!

As for the flare.... gotta love tommie undercarriages... stronger than diamonds!

[AOB9]

"As for knowing when your ready, at some point you'll find yourself going downwind and saying "ho Hum this is taking a while" you've nailed your height, trimmed and are on approach speed and finished your checks."

I've just revisited this thread having taken back to the air after taking (involuntary) time out from training. I've put in some intensive time to catch up and I'm finally at the "Ho Hum" place mentioned above. I've stuck with 2 instructors all the way and I'm almost ready for solo. Loving every second of it apart from the occasional "Go Around" due to due dodgy crosswind approaches. I'm very happy with my chosen instructors, they push my limits without getting me overwhelmed. Incidentally I'm training in EICK where ( it seems) crosswinds are a way of life.