N850TV impounded at BHX

[S78]

This TBM850 arrived yesterday afternoon and - according to eyewitnesses - landed over the top of a FlyBE Dash8 which had lined up on 15.

Today, there are snow ploughs parked in front of and behind the TBM - guess the CAA want a word with the pilot...

[Pace]

I would be cautious at jumping to conclusions. Was the TBM issued a landing clearance? Was the Dash cleared to line up? Was the TBM instructed to Go around? Why didnt the TBM go around regardless seeing the Dash on the runway?
Why clear the Dash to line up with another aircraft on short finals?
Maybe Dash was ready immediate but then wasnt or problems on departure clearance which delayed an immediate?
Was the Dash cleared to line up after the landing and was a bit too quick on the after bit which appeared as if the TBM had flown over the top?

Why block the aircraft from departing? Usually only done if money owed or a serious fault on the aircraft with a determined to go pilot?
The pilot would be at fault but that would not stop another pilot flying the TBM out?

Seems odd all round would be interesting to know more.

Pace

[A and C]

Heathrow would have been unable to get the snow ploughs into action that quickly!

[Dave Gittins]

Ah but we would at Gatwick ! :ok:

[IO540]

Yes, definitely need to know more.

Not many TBM pilots are mugs.

Does the CAA have the power to confiscate an aircraft, ahead of any action against the pilot? I thought this is not possible in the UK (unless pursuing a debt). The French can do it (but the French can do anything).

[1800ed]

Can't seem to find anything in the news about this and seeing as how it's newsworthy when Ryanair tell you to sit at the back of one of their 737's due W&B you'd expect a story like this to be out there; if the rumour is true.

[S78]

I cannot confirm the initial allegation - hence the 'according to' prefix.

I can confirm the snow plough part from my own observations - they were certainly there when I arrived for work at 06:30 and were still there when I left.

The TBM is based in Italy and had planned to depart today, BHX doesn't usually move this quickly for unpaid fees - could a TBM run up a bill for landing/handling/overnight parking that its worth blocking it in within 12-16 hours of arrival?

[IO540]

An old unpaid bill is a possibility.

This sort of thing can also easily happen accidentally, as airport billing / admin practices are occassionally incompetent. I have had several cases of duplicate billing for stuff paid at the time; they climbed down upon getting a proof of the payment (I keep the stuff for a year nowadays) except in one French airport case where I had no proof so just paid them again...

[A and C]

Lille by any chance?

[IO540]

La Rochelle.

However, IME, East Midlands / Bournemouth (accounts done by the same office) mess up more invoices than they get right (largely due to the bizzare Bournemouth Handling setup) and I bet these two have a long list of "drive-aways" who don't actually exist. To be fair, it can be hard to track down some planes and I did explain to one office lady how to use google to track down where people are based so the bill can be sent there...

[splash&dash]

S78s initial post is completely true :uhoh: except they were snow brush tractors impounding the a/c instead of snow ploughs.
After a chat with 'the authorites' the a/c departed yesterday afternoon.
A full investigation will no doubt be under way of which 'PACE's post highlights possible questions.

[Pace]

One point to consider in a landing over?was the Dash lined up on the numbers?

Often an aircraft is cleared to enter and line up after the landing aircraft.
Once at around 50 feet to touchdown the pilots eyes are fixed on the touchdown point, He is bringing the power back to idle or a low setting and preparing to land.

At 50 feet he may not be aware because of the wings obscuring his view of activity from his right or left.

It is quite possible that the Dash
was lining up behind the landing but did so prematurely meaning that the landing aircraft past over him or appeared with slant angles to do so.

I find it alsmost impossible to comprehend that a professional pilot seeing a passeneger aircraft on or near the numbers would fly over the top and land?

Firstly from his own perspective but secondly ATC would have told him in no uncertain terms to Go around probably a number of times.
They would have also told him to expect a late landing clearance if there was a likelyhood of a delay/conflict with a departing aircraft.

As previously stated I will be interested in the findings of this event??? But cannot imagine it will be anything like it appears in the opening posting.

[BrummyGit]

It is being reported (http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2011/01/15/flybe-flight-within-inches-of-birmingham-airport-crash/) by my local news paper the there was an incident involving a Flybe aircraft and a private plane at Birmingham on Wednesday afternoon.

If accurate it sounds as though this was a fortunate outcome for all involved.

[bearfoil]

This Tocata is registered in Delaware to Wise, Inc. Trustee. A single engine Turboprop operating in Europe is not generally going to be flown by a novice. As any info is yet to be forthcoming, I don't assume the "Blocked in" has to do with any thing. This is an ATC deal. If not controlled, the landing aircraft has ROW...........imo.

[Burpbot]

Ahhh Brummygit, its nice to see the press accurate as ever. As usual wrong airplane in the picture, but makes a change from the 146! :mad:

[moonym20]

The source, who did not want to be named, claimed the Flybe pilot “had his head between his knees” bracing himself for a crash, adding: “He estimated the planes were inches apart"without doubt, the best reporting I had read this year :D

[Big Green Glow]

Pace

With respect you make a number of assumptions. Aircraft impounded pending AAIB investigation. As ever we shall leave the investgation to the professionals and await the outcome of the enquiry.

BGG ;)

[Duchess_Driver]

The source, who did not want to be named, claimed the Flybe pilot...

My guess is there is a limited number of suspects as to who the snitch is!

[Love_joy]

BHX radar (primary) has been patchy at best recently with an ongoing radar upgrade, or unservicability.

There is some possibility this was an aircraft failure of some sort, power, radios etc... the crews might just have been carrying on, expecting the waters to part for them.

Or runway confusion? Coventry isnt that far away....

[JAR]

Flybe aircraft told to line up, with another aircraft on 5 mile final (regular occurence at any airport). Comms lost with aircraft on approach.

[vanHorck]

JAR

Potential occurrence or fact?

[Ryan5252]

Flybe aircraft told to line up, with another aircraft on 5 mile final (regular occurence at any airport). Comms lost with aircraft on approach.

Speculating as ever, but if this were the case then I should have thought that the landing ac would have followed some sort lost coms procedure, i.e. go around, enter a hold somewhere, 7600 and try to resolve the issue. Shirley it wouldn't have been been given a landing clearance if the Flybe had been given a line up clearance?

Or... the Flybe may have been given a line up after clearance and our infringing ac may have been number 2 on approach and after the landing of number 1 Flybe mistook it for his conditional subject??

Crossed wires somewhere no doubt... will be interesting to find out what actually happend.

[Piltdown Man]

...I should have thought that the landing ac would have followed some sort lost coms procedure...

And that procedure when on short finals is... Land (unless of course the runway is blocked). Then clear the runway and report as soon as possible to ATC.

PM

[Ryan5252]

But would the landing ac have been given a landing clearance if the flybe was told to line up? I don't think short finals makes a difference in the absence of actually being cleared to land: No landing clearance, no landing unless an emergancy landing is being conducted IMHO. Also, was the landing ac flying an instrument or visual approach? 5 mile final is roughly around the OM is it not? Is this 'short finals'?

Of course, all of the above is just my own views as a lowly PPL holder, but I am quite interested in this case.

[Burpbot]

You would like to think any pilot with an inch of sense would have gone around. I find its unlikely the landing aircraft didnt see the Dash its not exactly a microlight! However if I was of fire or had to land asap for some reason I would consider a land over. But not for comms failiure!

[redflyer]

Some facts for you all.

TBM went to ground freq. instead of tower when instructed.

TBM was never cleared to land.

TBM was doing an NDB/DME approach with a 6 Deg off set.

Flybe crew were cleared to line up by tower.

If the TBM had have been on the tower freq. I expect he would have been told to continue the approach there is one aircraft to depart.

Finally the flybe crew would have had the TBM on TCAS and lining up infront of an aircraft on 5 miles is the norm at BHX.

Some posts would be suprised for a professional pilot to see an aircraft on a runway and land over it.

Firstly, you can act as professionally as you like but if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up.

And when I say overloaded I don't mean heavy.;)

The facts are that the TBM pilot didn't see the dash and DID fly directly over it and land.

Simples
How do I know all this?

Simples

[Philflies]

@redflyer
Well, I'm listening! How do you know all that?

@ryan5252 ...and don't call me Shirley..... (sorry, couldn't resist)

[IO540]

if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up.What presumptious bollox. I take it you are not a pilot.

Let me let you into a few dirty little secrets of flying planes (which you wouldn't know unless you fly them, of course, and I don't mean C152s)

In a plane with even 25% of the cockpit automation of a TBM850 (and I flew a brand spanking new 850 with a Socata factory instructor a few months ago, and I have 1100hrs in another little GA plane with about 75% of the cockpit automation of the TBM) any instrument approach is a doddle.

An NDB/DME approach is (in real IMC) flown with autopilot guidance along the NDB inbound track, with the guidance coming from a GPS. All the pilot does is VNAV, and speed control, flaps, gear, comms. Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't).

As for the rest, if it's true he should not have landed without a landing clearance; that is clear.

But there could easily be more to the story. He might have been at his alternate, in which case a landing might not be optional. There is also the IFR lost comms procedure. When exactly did the other aircraft line up, and was it on the runway, or holding short of it?

Just don't go slagging off single pilot GA :ugh:

[TWR]

...as long as you don't go slagging off GA pilots handflying on
raw data in IMC. :-/

[MIKECR]

All the pilot does is VNAV, and speed control, flaps, gear, comms. Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't).

Oh yes they do. All depends what the FMS is approved for. Plenty airlines out there with less than sophisticated kits which are not approved for non precision approaches. My own companies SOP's strictly forbid any NDB approach to be flown using the FMS. Pilot flying/handling pilot must fly the approach with only sole reference to the ADF. The non flying pilot/pilot monitoring is however allowed to display the FMS overlay on their own individual EFIS display....purely to monitor the ADF/FMS tracks and call out any discrepencies that may be apparent.

[IO540]

Pilot flying/handling pilot must fly the approach with only sole reference to the ADF. I guess whoever wrote the ops manual is really proud of that. Lenin (living in the same era) would have been proud of him - except Lenin was a lot more pragmatic.

The non flying pilot/pilot monitoring is however allowed to display the FMS overlay on their own individual EFIS display....purely to monitor the ADF/FMS tracks and call out any discrepencies that may be apparent.And of course if the ADF says you are OK but the FMS says you are all going to die, the FMS is disregarded.

:ugh:

[MIKECR]

guess whoever wrote the ops manual is really proud of that. Lenin (living in the same era) would have been proud of him - except Lenin was a lot more pragmatic.

Nope, he wrote it because the FMS isnt approved for non precision approaches.

And of course if the ADF says you are OK but the FMS says you are all going to die, the FMS is disregarded.

What would you do.....follow the FMS? follow the ADF? Go around?

[Jan Olieslagers]

or click the "PAUSE" button ...?

[redflyer]

Lets assume I am a pilot. Lets assume I work for flybe. Let's assume I know the crew. Hey what do I know. The aaib investigation will be out in a few weeks.

[Torque Tonight]

Aha - busted! Any real pilot would know that it'll take at least a year for an AAIB report to come out! ;)

[Sciolistes]

Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't).
Every approach instrument approach predicated on navaids, the pertinant navaids are tuned, identified and monitored regardless of the level of automation in use. It is true that the level of monitoring past the FAP can vary depending on FMC versions, type of updating etc, but the basics are still required.

And of course if the ADF says you are OK but the FMS says you are all going to die, the FMS is disregarded.
If you T,I,M the navaid before starting the procedure whilst flying the FMS track then any discrepency should be obvious prior to descending below MSA.

[DX Wombat]

How do I know all this? SimplesTake a look at Redflyers profile (s)he flies a Dash8. Makes me suspect Redflyer was one of the pilots in the one involved in this incident.

[Contacttower]

Firstly, you can act as professionally as you like but if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up.

True a multi crew operation all other things equal will probably be safer than a single one but I think you will find a certain amount of consternation from the more experienced members of the Private Flying forum with a comment like that!;)

[IO540]

If Redflyer is a Flybe pilot he/she should not be writing this kind of garbage about IFR GA. This kind of prejudice doesn't do anybody any good, although it isn't uncommon within the "gold plated pilot" community and probably explains a lot of regulatory difficulties elsewhere to which nobody will own up publicly.

A TBM850 has better kit than a Dash 8, in all probability.

Of course multi crew ops are safer than single crew ops but what he/she wrote is just garbage, in the context of an appropriately equipped aircraft. The C152 someone might do their IMCR in is something else, but this was a TBM.

If you T,I,M the navaid before starting the procedure whilst flying the FMS track then any discrepency should be obvious prior to descending below MSA. Yes, of course. I was kind of making the point that there are plenty of coastal NDB approaches on which you get a 20-30 degree error, which starts at not much at say 10D, reaches the 20-30 degrees at say 3D, and then disappears at say 1-2D but by then if you blindly tracked the ADF (as you are supposed to on your IR initial) you are so far off track by the time you get visual at the MDA that you will have some fun getting in. I have spoken to loads of airline pilots about this in person and generally their SOP is to check the ADF at the FAF only and then track the FMS inbound, and the NDB has to be idented, apparently functioning (not that you can actually tell), and not notamed as INOP. One Dash 8 pilot, non UK, I spoke to a few months ago does exactly this, for VOR and NDB approaches, but they don't even need to check the navaid indication at the FAF; it merely needs to be idented and not notamed INOP.

[SkyHawk-N]

Lets assume I am a pilot. Lets assume I work for flybe. Let's assume I know the crew.

redflyer, can we also assume that you can put your head between your legs? ;)

[Fuji Abound]

I always find it a good rule never to assume. ;)

[blueandwhite]

I always find it a good rule never to assume.

I think we can all assume that is a good rule.:ok:

[vanHorck]

SkyHawk-N,


..... no on second thoughts I won't write that..... something about getting a divorce....

[AltFlaps]

IO540,

Given your 11,000+ posts, one could assume that you'd be an experienced pilot who knows what he's talking about. But given the the nonsense you've written in this post, that appears not to be the case.

I know this is a rumours forum, but you shouldn't write with such 'apparent authority' on topics which you appear not to understand.

[IO540]

Can you be more specific?

[Sciolistes]

I'm sure IO540 knows what he is on about. He certainly walks the walk. IO's views are a product of his wallet and experience :E

[Mungo Man]

Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't).

Except in my airline, where using FMS for primary nav below MSA is forbidden.
You have to follow the needle otherwise you can't call established. If the FMS says you are a mile off track but the ADF is on track which is right? Who knows? Our FMS is BRNAV so it must be within 5nm 95% of the time. That could be worse than the ADF. Don't expect a straight approach every time with an NDB but do expect to be able to position the aircraft for a decent landing if visual at minima.

Just think, if you disregarded the needle, followed the FMS, flew down to 300ft MDA where you shouldn't be, got EGPWS warnings, and then at the investigation said "well I disregarded procedure and followed the FMS rather than the appropriate nav aid because I don't like NDBs then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. FMS may be the norm but it isn't perfect.

[englishal]

If I were flying an NDB approach, sure I'd use the needle as a backup, but would prefer to use the G430W as the primary nav. I wonder how long before Overlay approaches are available for all these old NDBs....?

[IO540]

If the FMS says you are a mile off track but the ADF is on track which is right? Who knows? Our FMS is BRNAV so it must be within 5nm 95% of the time. That could be worse than the ADF.

Do you know what your FMS uses for the fix-ups?

It will be DME/DME or GPS. That will answer your question :)

BRNAV is just the approval category. It barely relates to the actual technology. I have a BRNAV (RNP5 equiv.) approved GPS but the only way I would be 5nm off track is if Ronald Reagan came back and turned the system off. With a paperwork exercise I can make it RNP0.3 which is probably closer to the actual accuracy ;)

But surely if your FMS and your ADF disagreed massively, you would divert to some place with an ILS. I would.

[Mad As A Mad Thing]

...if you are an overloaded single engine pilot doing an NDB/DME approach...


I think some of you have missed the point here. Re-read that word that comes before single engine. Yes,OVERLOADED. Once a crew is overloaded, whether it be single engine,single pilot GA or multi engine, multi crew commercial then all bets are off. There's no predicting what can happen, as all the assumptions about what you'd normally expect the crew to do are out of the window.

The trouble is, unless the crew tell anyone, or there are big enough clues for ATC to spot then nobody knows and there's nothing anybody can do to help them.

Is it totally inconceivable for a very inexperienced pilot to turn up at a busy airfield expecting an ILS approach because he hadn't briefed properly and then finding its an NDB? Struggling to fly the approach procedure, selecting the wrong frequency for tower? Being so fixated on landing that he didn't even see an aircraft lined up?

Yes there are many opportunities for a pilot to exit the above scenario, but that's the beauty of target fixation...you just don't see anything other than what you're focused on.

[mm_flynn]

Is it totally inconceivable for a very inexperienced pilot to turn up at a busy airfield expecting an ILS approach because he hadn't briefed properly and then finding its an NDB? Struggling to fly the approach procedure, selecting the wrong frequency for tower? Being so fixated on landing that he didn't even see an aircraft lined up? Of course that is possible, and if it was a C172 it might even be plausible. However, it seems remarkably unlikely that a 'very inexperienced pilot' would be flying a TBM850 (mega buck high end turboprop).

There is undoubtedly a story with several Swiss cheese holes lining up. However, at the moment there is nowhere near enough information to have even a mildly useful speculation.

[Pace]

As in most flying mishaps it will not be one event but a combination of errors which lead to the end result.
We have to look at the part ATC played in this even if not their contribution bit why they failed to stop it happening.
We have to look at the other aircraft and his contribution if any ?
We have to look at the TBM Pilot himself ?

Only than will we know ? But would be interesting to know

Pace

[RogerClarence]

The pilot of the impounded a/c flew into BHX on the wrong radio frequencies, the Dash was lined up and told to wait, the impounded idiot made an approach and landed over the top, then got impounded.

BHX were transmitting on APP/TWR/GND/DIR frequences basically telling him to FRO...................

I was there, saw and heard it all, as for what was going through the idiots mind.......i can only speculate....not a lot...:suspect:

[Pace]

As in most flying mishaps it will not be one event but a combination of errors which lead to the end result.

Roger

I still hold with my quote above. We still dont know the circumstances that lead to this or the explanation the pilot has given.
Taking what you saw and heard as being correct doesnt explain why?
For all we know the pilot may have been ill and decided to land over rather than go around?
Unlikely but my point is that we do not know.
Normally a pilot will be handed from one frequency to another. He may indeed take down the wrong frequency make a call and get no response.
The previous frequency would be in the standby position and easely called back.
If the pilot landed over we have to question why! Whatever presuming that he saw the aircraft lined up on or near the numbers there would have been some reason in his mind that made him decide he would be better on the ground than risking a go around and another approach.
Most pilots of that calibre level are not idiots so would still love to know his explanation? It could have simply been overload which can happen in SPO

Pace

[DX Wombat]

BHX were transmitting on APP/TWR/GND/DIR frequencesIf they weren't getting a response did they use the lights?

[sammypilot]

Single pilot, using the FMS and trying to fly the approach using the ADF whilst dodging traffic on the runway - lights? You're kidding aren't you?

[englishal]

However...

Just pehaps the pilot had a medical emergency onboard and was not sure he was capable of another approach.....and perhaps the aircraft is not impounded after all but "parked".....

[KKoran]

It has been over a month since the incident. Any update?

[W59]

No Emergency landing lights at Birmingham airport ( at least on that day ) , it seems that the runway 15 , the first part is not BLACK , it's light GREY , maybe this help to understand the "over" landing , white aircraft on light grey asphalt .

[Danscowpie]

The aircraft wouldn't be impounded purely on the basis of the incident described. Detaining an aircraft is an extremely serious procedure and requires the airport authority to be in possession of a Mareva injunction.
As has been been intimated, it was almost certainly a case of unpaid fees being involved.

The CAA have the power to detain aircraft but they could only do so with a similar legal order (which take weeks to establish, unless previously proven) and it would involve far more serious circumstances than unpaid bills.

[Legalapproach]

Danscowpie - no I'm afraid you're wrong re unpaid fees.

The AAIB report will be published before too long and I anticipate will make some interesting reading.

[S-Works]

Why would there be an AIB report, there was no accident?

[Legalapproach]

Serious incident

[BillieBob]

The CAA have the power to detain aircraft but they could only do so with a similar legal order Not true. Either the CAA or an 'authorised person' has, in specified circumstances, the power to prevent an aircraft from flying and to detain that aircraft without any prior court order. All CAA inspectors, for example, carry a warrant conferring such powers. ANO Articles 232 and 233 refer.

[HeliCraig]

Report is out from AAIB. Air Accidents Investigation: Socata TBM 850, N850TV (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/october_2011/socata_tbm_850__n850tv.cfm)
I read it as: pilot selected wrong frequency, assumed loss comm, continued approach and landing as entitled to do in line with regulations. ATC didn't expect this (having previously been told to expect a Go Around in such circumstances) and had lined up departing traffic.

4 recommendations (and 1 clarification of tax issues) came out of this incident - something I think tells you how serious it is. It appears no-one did anything wrong, but something potentially very dangerous happened... system change required.