VACANT SEAT ROWS- question for 737 drivers.

[the dean]

I'm sure this has been done to death...but can't find anything on a search...(which could be finger trouble..I just fly aeroplanes..but not the best with forum searching..!!)..I do'nt fly anything that big (Citation is max)..but..

Often but not too often, I see vacant rows front and rear in FR 737s. ...I suppose others do it as well but I can't say. I know this is done for weight and balance on T/O when the pax figures are withing certain numbers and then that , it seems dictates the rows to be blocked.

My question however is, did I not read somewhere, that this is critical only for take off and the seats can, due to normal fuel burnoff, be used for landing..?? I know it is possible, say for instance in a short flight, that the burnoff would be very little and so the centre of gravity may not have changed a whole lot...

So, if they are blocked for T/O ..are they for the same reason ( since it may not be possitle to recalculate the centre of gravity) still blocked for landing..??

Just curious...:confused:

[Agaricus bisporus]

In reality it would not be easy to get a 737 out of C of G limits without the pax distribution in the cabin being ridiculously uneven, ie all 80 pax sitting aft of the wing, entire fwd section of the cabin empty.
The computerised loadsheet almost certainly assumes an even distribution of passengers and cabin crew are taught this is important but naturally have little real understanding of the whys and wherefores. Their manual may well specify this sort of procedure if pax loads are small or distribution of pax is anticipated to be uneven. They know from experience that pax will tend to crowd the front of the cabin because that end gets to the destination first and so with a partial load they can either ask pax to spread thenselves out or simply block off the first and last few rows to ensure weight is centred over the wing. Guess which method works?
A 737 manual loadsheet divides the pax distribution into 3 zones, the central zone does not affect the c of g, the fwd and aft ones do so you can picture how uneven distribution would affect things.
C of G is important in all phases of flight, not just t/o.

[BOAC]

the dean - it is equally important (as you will know) to be 'in the envelope' for landing as well. It is also generally safest to return everyone to the seat allocation given for boarding, since the associated load index will have been proven to be in the envelope.

Yes, there may be times when a 'modified' seating will be acceptable for landing, but can you imagine the difficulty of getting the c/crew to detail the 'new' seating and then plotting it? Since 'returning to allocated seats' for landing is really not a bummer, that's what is done.

AB - it isn't THAT difficult with a crass agent!

[the dean]

yes thanks fellows...just what I thought...especially with short sectors...but a bit annoying when they tell you the seats cant be used after T./O even in the air( four flight from the Canaries).......and half an hour later you find that all those who did'nt bother to ask permission are sprawled out taking three seats to sleep over and nobody says a word...:mad:...except to ask those to return to their seats for landing........:*

[BOAC]

Yes indeed - it is very unlikely that a trim problem would be created in the cruise and as long as the c/crew have checked with the pilots on movement of pax there should have been no problem.

[chevvron]

BOAC: one problem with your statement; FR do not allocate seats! However on my two flights with them (both to the same destination) I noticed two or three empty rows at the front with signs saying not to be used, which did not stop people trying to sit there. The stewardess naturally got pi$$ed off with this and after the last one to board tried it, two fingers were shown to him behind his back!!

[BOAC]

'Seat allocation' was a loose term for 'where you have been told to sit':).

[chevvron]

They don't even do that; it seems there's just a mad scramble and you sit where you like provided it's not a 'closed' row! There's not even a 'control' over who sits next to the emergency exits.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Just to clarify the point, maintaining the aircraft's C of G within the allowable envelope is essential and an unvariable requirement at all stages of flight which surprise surprise includes the cruise...

Talking short haul here, as we are, (intercontinental weight and balance might be different after several hours of fuel burn.)

Seating pax in a particular configuration for t/o or landing on c of g grounds and then allowing them to move elsewhere during the cruise is a complete nonsense and indicates either a fundamental lack of understanding of c of g matters or a complete disregard of c of g requirements (which would be odd when they've already cited them).
Please, no one argue that fuel burn might put the c of g back into range after t/o. No cabin crew can know that, nor would any pilot that close to the c of g limits allow it.

Either way, something pretty serious doesn't add up with the crew's knowledge or their procedures if this happens.

[the dean]

now that you mention it Chevvron...(though a little off my original post)...you have an interesting point.......
unlike American carriers (who are very selective about who sits in emergency exit rows, quite rightly,)....it seems to me not enough attention is paid by some carriers as to who sits at emergency exit rows, their age, abitity and understanding of how to operate the exit.

when I see the huge variation in abilities of those who learn to fly.....a lot of normal every day people are mechanically challenged even to the extent I wonder how many people seated at emergency rows or near doors even bother to consult the safety instructions as to how (if the crew were incapatitated say in the case of a door ...but the overwing exit due to a traffic jam is likely only to be the responsibility of the person seated beside it) to open the exit...which way does the lever operate...(all the more important if it is a night flight and one might have to open the exit in darkness.....!!!) :ooh:

I wonder how many passengers reading this have ever even considered their responsibility to the rest of the aircraft , in taking the emergency exit row...other than for the extra legroom....perhaps they should reflect on that responsibility for a moment....
In an emergency, they are in effect , for a moment, unofficially, part of the crew....with a responsibility to those around them...

[lederhosen]

There have been some interesting and expensive incidents on the 737 caused by weight and balance mistakes. A good example happened in Stuttgart with a brand new NG from an anatolian charter carrier. They had all the pax at the back due to a misunderstanding about transit pax seating. When the captain pressed Toga the aircraft promply sat on its tail. The tail was dragged a fair distance causing megabuck damage.

[Pontius Navigator]

Just to clarify the point, maintaining the aircraft's C of G within the allowable envelope is essential and an unvariable requirement at all stages of flight which surprise surprise includes the cruise...

And is a good reason for leaving the seat belt sign on during the climb. last thing you want is a 500kg induced moment fore or aft.

[Herod]

I'm sure this has been covered in another thread. I believe Ryanair use standard loadsheets and ensure CG is correct by blocking certain rows depending on passenger load. Someone from FR confirm this?

[El Grifo]

I have only EVER seen this on Ryanair, usually rows 4+5.

I also have often wondered !

[redsnail]

A colleague's hubby flew for Ryanair. I asked her that exact question a while ago, that is correct with respect to blocking off some rows. (Boeing 737-800)

[El Grifo]

Just to clarify, What is the exact reason ?

Thanx
El G.

[redsnail]

As far as I can recall, Ryanair use quicksheets for trim purposes. If the a/c isn't full then it's easier to block off specific rows so the a/c is in trim.

However, I am not a Ryanair pilot and the conversation I had with my colleague is about 18 months old. I will happily stand corrected by Ryanair crew.

[lederhosen]

Every airline has its own idiosyncracies. In Ryanair's case the very short turnarounds and focus on cost require a taylorian approach to activity management(optimised work practices, think McDonalds).

Over a big fleet it is amazing how much fuel you can save by having more weight at the back. This incidentally is a curious spin off benefit of charging people more for the exit row seats. Everyone else moves more quickly to the back of the plane. Don't ask me why, they just do. Not something Ryanair has yet caught on to.

[GlueBall]

Uhh...what's next...? Forwarded seated Business Class pax "reseated" into econ section to keep CG balanced? :{