New Falklands War Brewing

[vernon99]

yes,

take all troops from the sandpit and instead reinforce the Falkland Islands, conduct an "exercise" down there and show the neighbours what our idea of militarising the area would be. Send more Typhoons and some GR4s, perhaps some AH64s too, and have a rehearsal, obviously with the press there to "count them all out, and count them all back".

[500N]

cokecan

Superb post, well said:D

I particularly liked this

"and i want to see the BG tell that nice Mr Obama that if he doesn't fancy making a statement about the US's absolute commitment to the right of self determination of the Fakland Islanders, then he can fcuk himself off and find one of his own fcuking divisions to control central Helmand.

i get very bored with us being the quiet, civilised and supportive ones and for those we support to piss on us at every given opportunity." OBAMA - Take note !

[Royalistflyer]

"and i want to see the BG tell that nice Mr Obama that if he doesn't fancy making a statement about the US's absolute commitment to the right of self determination of the Fakland Islanders, then he can fcuk himself off and find one of his own fcuking divisions to control central Helmand.

i get very bored with us being the quiet, civilised and supportive ones and for those we support to piss on us at every given opportunity."

I agree absolutely.

[Airborne Aircrew]

take all troops from the sandpit and instead reinforce the Falkland Islands, conduct an "exercise" down there and show the neighbours what our idea of militarising the area would be. Send more Typhoons and some GR4s, perhaps some AH64s too, and have a rehearsal, obviously with the press there to "count them all out, and count them all back".

I'm fully in agreement with the recent posts that support this view but i'd like to add something...

Let's start extracting the Billions of dollars worth of "stuff" that is down there... Rather than just sitting on it and sticking out our tongues at SA. Make the investment pay for itself...:ugh:

[wiggy]

:ok: 'wot they all said, cokecan onwards.

I didn't spend 3-4 months of my life down living on a bleedin' car ferry down there almost thirty years ago :sad: just so some wuss to give them back now, just because it's politically expedient or the easy thing to do ( oh yes, and thirty years back some of the sceptics, mainly the significant one's in important places, were quietly on our side. This time if they're not..... stuff 'em)

[Gene Genie]

CC

Well said Sir! I'll keep it the back of my mind when I go down there next week for a couple of months.

Regards

Gene

[Airborne Aircrew]

Well said Sir! I'll keep it the back of my mind when I go down there next week for a couple of months.

Bloody hell... It's the Prince!!!! :}

[Gene Genie]

AA

No fella, he's already there. At least that's the rumour...

[Airborne Aircrew]

See.. If you'd have played that for a while we could have brought out all the sycophants... ;)

[Gene Genie]

Sorry, couldn't keep a straight face! My money is on the fact that the annual posturing at the UN is more public due to a couple of high profile deployments.

Cheers

Gene

[cokecan]

GGenie,

good luck down there. despite my Daily Hate-style rant, i really think they're going to have a pop at the islands - thats all political tea-leaves reading, nothing military, but its what i do for a living.

be careful, and bring back the bridge bell from a MEKO destroyer!

[Rigga]

Cokey,

post 501... Brilliant!

[XR219]

Now they're complaining that we've sent a Vanguard class down there.... hmmm, how would they know?

BBC News - UK sent nuclear sub near Falklands, says Argentina (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16993391)

[TurbineTooHot]

I bet they think it's a smart play so we now couldn't/wouldn't park one off the coast of BA.

If we really were pushed to lobbing those evil things about I would have thought it wouldn't need to be anywhere near....... Oh well. Nice try Argies.

[500N]

Obama (and the US) seems to really like offending the US's past supporters / friends.

He goes to Egypt on his first OS trip and blames Israel for the Mid East problems.
Europe becomes "old europe".
Don't seem to want to support the UK over the Falklands but quite happy for the UK to support the US in most of the wars it has got into over the last 20 years.
Seems to chummy up to countries like Australia, who although have supported the US over the same 20 years as the UK, without deingrating the job they have done the amount of support is minute compared to the UK.
Wants to chummy up to South America where most seem to hate the US anyway.
The US seems to like blaming everyone for the economic problems of the world while their own backyard is crumbling and needing bailout.

I think a bit of scratching the back of those that have scratched theirs OVER THE LONG TERM might not be in order down the track and reminding them of it as well.

Rant over:O

[Flyingblind]

I've oft wondered at the UK's recent (40 years or so) political posturing. It would seem that the the UK political class have deliberately undersold the UK's ability to act independently. The list of their failings are long and well documented.

Like her or not but Maggie had a pair and was not afraid to use them, this time round the forces at play realise the UK is almost on it's knees (thank you bankers, thank you gutless, self serving politicians of all sides) and have come out to 'av a go.

It's about time the UK stood up for herself and told others to F**K OFF!

[500N]

Flyingblind,

Agree, love her or hate her, even if she didn't have a pair, she certainly played like she did and with the big boys too. Good on her, we need more like her, those with a bit of backbone (regardless of political persuasion). :ok:

[Whenurhappy]

Did anyone take any notice of the utter drivel that the ARG FORMIN said to the UN General Assembly?

He show the 'network' of military bases that the UK uses to control the SA, well known PJOBs suchj as St Helena and Tristan da Chuna.

He claimed that the UK had a nuclear weapons accident 'when passing material between ships' in 2003. He stated that intelligence sources advised that HMS Vanguard was in the area and that the UK had been asked (but refused to respond) whether it was carrying nukes.

The FORMIN claimed that the UK likened the situation in the SA to the Gulf and in so doing, justified the deployment of a T45.

He showed an image of an array that 'an intelligence agency' advised was connected to Radars in France, Canada, Australia and, err, Japan!

He showed a map of the FI showing the global communications network that the UK installed (must be large balls of string...)


He claimed that Typhoon pilots train in the FI before being deployed to Iraq and AFG. Tiffy also carries Taurus. The Typhoon had been operated by Britain over Iraq, AFG and Libya, giving us a 5th generation capability (that bit was true). He showed rather inflated unrefuelled range rings of the Typhoon showing that it could hit Brazil, inter alia.

Either the FORMIN enjoys telling porkies to the GA or he's been fed disinformation. Either way, tje presentation was a crock of sh!t. Argentina will, of course, get support from the UNGA in te form of a non-binding resolution, but if it's discussed by the Security Council, the UK can veto it! After all, the UK (Anthony Eden) was co-architect of the structure.

[cokecan]

Whenurhappy,

much more importan than whether we know its drivel that a simple trip to wiki would dispel, what are the Argentine media going to be screaming this morning?

the problem is that the Argentine public will believe this twaddle, and for political reasons the other LA governments will say they believe this twaddle, so the Argentine media will be screaming 'we're in danger' and demanding their government do something.

i'm reminded of the consequences of another long held political view, a dodgy briefing at the UN, some grinning half-wit who went along with it in order to be seen as a big man on the world stage, protestations that the UN route was vital, and a media that was stoked up by a government into printing any old crap...

[alemaobaiano]

the problem is that the Argentine public will believe this twaddle

Cokecan, I think that you are underestimating the Argentine public, if my recent trip and the comments in their newspapers are anything to go by.

Clarin is very pro-government but even their comments section has little in the way of support for this ridiculous declaration in the UN. La Nacion is even less supportive, most of the comments refer to the Falklands situation as a smoke screen to divert attention from inflation and unemployment.

I was in BA last week on business, and, as all of my contacts know that I served two tours down south, it's a subject that comes up every time. Not one person that I met supports military action to recover the islands, a few think that diplomacy is the way forward, but the majority say that it's up to the islanders to decide. The conversation soon moved on to football, a much more dangerous subject.

The situation may be different in the provinces, but the more informed Argentine can see this twaddle for what it really is, a distraction.

TTFN

[TEEEJ]

Whenurhappy,

I agree. Poorly researched and made him look like a numpty. The researcher simply lifted the Taurus image from Wiki. If he/she had scrolled down then they would have found out who operates Taurus. Certainly not the UK.

File:Taurus ILA2006.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taurus_ILA2006.JPG)

KEPD 350 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KEPD_350)

The video is not translated, but shows the power point.

7JKaIhh7NPU&feature=related

[Whenurhappy]

CC, the image of the iraqi WMD briefing to the SC did spring to mind...

I see that the FCO have half-heartedly tried to correct the briefing, but as it stands, the FORMIN effectively admitted that Argentina, along with other countries couldn't match Britain's new-found Military might in the SA, hence running, snivelling, to the SecGen. Made us look quite strong, that did!

[Whenurhappy]

TEEj,

Is nice to know that the ARG intelligence services are less competent than ours...

[TurbineTooHot]

Turns out they're not even very good with google.......

[Airborne Aircrew]

Turns out they're not even very good with google.......

That's coz it's in English, innit... :}

[GrahamO]

As a matter of interest, if 'the balloon went up' and the UK needed to get additional Typhoons down there for support quickly, what would be their flight time and where would they refuel en route?

I have no idea and I am sure there are views here !

[Harley Quinn]

According to Google most likely way here (http://www.fast-air.co.uk/raf-coningsby-falklands-typhoon-flight-1435/)

[NewsOfTheWorld]

Graham O

I am truly amazed.....

[randyrippley]

GrahamO
I don't think anyone else will give you a truthful answer, so here's the facts.
The first eight could be delivered fairly quickly from storage at Ascension. Theres a batch of early build airframes in storage there, they keep nicely in the dry weather. They just need mating up with their pilots and a couple of tankers to relay them down to Mount Pleasant
After that things become harder as the tankers will be needed for more urgent duties, so any second wave will have to come from the UK and routed overland as much as possible. Favoured route is Gib>Azores>Lajes>Buenos Aires and then down the east coast with a final refuel stop at Ria Gallegos and then east to the Falklands. Shoudn't take more than a week or so.


Ask a stupid fcuking question....

[Airborne Aircrew]

Favoured route is Gib>Azores>Lajes>Buenos Aires and then down the east coast with a final refuel stop at Ria Gallegos and then east to the Falklands.

If the Argies time it right we could do the flypast after the National Anthem at the Argentinian FA Cup Final... :ok:

[Milo Minderbinder]

Musing in the bath this morning, a couple of thoughts arrived
First - is the T45 test radar still fitted on the Longbow trials barge? If so, why not tow that down to the Falklands and anchor it somewhere suitable? Cheaper than keeping a T45 down there permanantly. Or better bet, could it be mounted on a hilltop on West Falkand? (The radar - not the barge...)

Second - I wonder if an application of Gerald Bull's supergun technology would work here.? Run a couple up the side of some hills on West Falkland, one pointing west, one northwest and despite facing the "wrong" way to get help from the earth's rotation, with terminal guidance much of Argentina would still be within range of a 500kg shell.
Shame all those barrel and breech block sections were cut up....The plans exist, I wonder how much Sheffield Forgemasters would charge for a repeat job?

[Whenurhappy]

Ahh, supergun technology. Real problems with projectile stability and it would be an offensive capability that Argentina could object about!

So a good idea.

Although Argentina seems to be doing a good job of garnering regional support for its claims, the UK has solid legal grounds for it to remain British territory for 'as long as the inhabitants wish it to be'. And Argentina has scant military capability to take and hold the territories.

[pr00ne]

Good grief that was some Friday night on Pprune! Friday night obviously brings out the nutters, the fantasy merchants and the good old fashioned jingoistic rah rah flag wavers. Some of you people need to get a social life or get laid more on a Friday.

Thankfully there seems to be a more reasoned sort back on here today.

What on earth would be the point of all this jingoistic flag waving, military posturing and offensive messages sent to the Argentines and telling people to F*** Off?

There appears to be no stomach for military action from the Argentinian people and very little concrete support for such from her neighbours.

You start getting all offensive, objectionable and aggressive down there and you see how quickly that would change.

It would also make the UK look extremely silly in the eyes of the rest of the world.
It would make us look like the ridiculous ex-colonialist aggressors that we in fact would be.

While there is absolutely NO doubt that it is the wishes of the Falkland Islanders themselves that should be paramount, and the UN supports this in its policy of self-determinatioin, any ramping up of the military presence and ridiculous aggressive willy waving, as proposed by those on here Friday night, would just attract attention to the fact that the Falklands is one of the few remaining territories still posessed by the UK, and is an anachronistic throw back to a rather embarrassing period in our history when we Europeans thought it acceptable to wander the globe in smash and grab raids claiming other peoples countries as our own.

[Milo Minderbinder]

po00ne

I am sorry, but your post reminds me too much of the platitudes of Neville Chamerlain

[pr00ne]

Milo Mindbender,


Really?

Then you have obviously misread my post or never read a single word written or spoken by Neville Chamberlain!

Where do I mention "appeasement?" Where do I mention "allowing zones of influence" Where do I mention "countries far far away of which we know little"?

I am not saying that we should withdraw from the Falkland Islands, I am not saying that we should have no military presence, I am not saying that we shouldn't maintain an adequate military capability down South and that if there are aggressive military moves by Argentina then we shouldn't counter them.

The fact that there is British presence in the South Atlantic is an anachronistic hangover from a previous era. Nevertheless there is an indigenous population down there whose wishes should be respected.

I just don't think that anyone should die for them. The only reason that anyone will die down there is if the Argentinian Government decide that they should. If that happens then THEY will be the aggressors and THEY will be wrong and it will be THEIR fault.

Doesn't sound much like Neville Chamberlain to me!

[Milo Minderbinder]

"What on earth would be the point of all this jingoistic flag waving, military posturing and offensive messages sent to the Argentines and telling people to F*** Off?
There appears to be no stomach for military action from the Argentinian people and very little concrete support for such from her neighbours.
You start getting all offensive, objectionable and aggressive down there and you see how quickly that would change"

That reads as appeasement to me

[pr00ne]

Then you clearly have no understanding of what appeasement means!

[Milo Minderbinder]

Or maybe I have a clearer understanding of its meaning

[Finningley Boy]

pr00ne,

I'm not going to read through all the posts of Friday night, but I'm sure you're happy with the present posture of sending the T45 Destroyer to loaf around for a while, I don't think we can trust anyone just to leave the Falklands alone at present. Further, as an ex light blue person, I think it is not a good idea not to have an aircraft carrier to send to the region. One that can launch interceptors rather than CAS stuff.

FB:)

[Navaleye]

Agree with last post. Dauntless raises the bar to a point where they wouldn't want to play. 1 Trafalgar class = goodbye navy. 1 T45 = goodbye air force. Bring em on.

[phantomstreaker]

Love it, more!

[BEagle]

Good grief that was some Friday night on PPRuNe! Friday night obviously brings out the nutters, the fantasy merchants and the good old fashioned jingoistic rah rah flag wavers. Some of you people need to get a social life or get laid more on a Friday.

Quite so. PPRuNe's military forum has become even more of a laughing stock of late than has been the case over the last couple of years or so.

Perhaps certain 'contributors' would sate their warmongering lust better if they moved to some BNP website? Or perhaps just played 'BlowStuffUp' on-line computer games in their bedrooms with their likeminded folk?

[hval]

Beagle & pr00ne,

Whilst you may see the postings on here as demonstrating a lust for war, I believe that the bullying, hectoring, threatening manner by the Argentinian government to be even more so. I do not see the comments on PPRuNe as being threatening in any way. I do see the current Argentinian policies with respect to the Falklands as being extremely dangerous. The Argentinians are warmongering. There is no other way of viewing what they are doing. The Argentinian declarations can no longer be considered to be aimed at being for internal consumption alone. For Chavez to then declare military support can only be considered more so. The postings on here are an interesting reaction to the Argentinians. It certainly allows me to gain an opinion of what certain people feel. No where have I seen anything of a BNP nature.

Have either of you written to the Argentinian government or to Venezuela complaining about their childish warmongering?

[Milo Minderbinder]

BNP???
I get the impression certain posters would sate their pro-appeasement views better if they posted on the CND website
The comments from of p00ne and Beagle would seem more in keeping with the voices of the old women who resided at the gates of Greenham Common

[Airborne Aircrew]

Hval:

There are always those that will stick their head in the sand and hope it all goes away. They are generally the ones that suddenly become shocked and disappointed after the thing they were hiding from actually happens...

[hval]

AA,

I have much respect and admiration for both pr00ne and for Beagle. Having said that I may not agree with pr00nes opinions often, but he is entitled to them. I do wish that they would not denigrate others. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

PPRune is a place where people are allowed to state their opinions and their beliefs. These may then be discussed, politely, and in a friendly manner hopefully.

I would rather people state their personal opinions on here rather than at work, where the outcomes for both them and the services might be somewhat different.

PPRuNe is, as far as I am concerned, a place for letting of steam, learning, chatting, joking and being serious.

For example, I feel that war went wrong when infernal flying machines were invented, and nothing can be as effective as a cavalry charge. In case I am wrong, I find PPRuNe a useful place to visit. I don't think I am wrong though.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Hval:

Sorry, but I lose patience with people who preach patience and diplomacy when someone is spoiling for a fight and make no preparation for that fight. When the fight starts it always takes many more men and resources to fix the problem. Many more people killed because some people would rather talk or do nothing than look aggressive.

[hval]

AA,

I hope I am reading pr00ne and Beagle correctly when I write this, but I think that pr00ne believes that the Falklands shouldn't belong to us and that people should not be so jingoistic. I also believe that pr00ne believes there to be zero risk of an invasion.

Beagle seems to think that the level of discussion is pathetic; and that there will be no invasion (and thinking so is pathetic).

Beagle and pr00ne I hope that I have precised correctly your thoughts. My apologies if I have not.

I pray that they are correct. I do not believe that there will be a peaceful solution myself.

[TEEEJ]

It really goes to show how much the Argentines are clutching at straws. Obviously the compiler of the 'research' is into conspiracy theories. It is like the conspiracy loons that think High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) controls the weather and causes earthquakes. Is this the best that Argentine Military Intelligence can do?

The Argentine Foreign Minister points out the HF radar at 07:56 in the following video.

7JKaIhh7NPU&feature=related

The HF radar is located at Goose Green.

http://en.mercopress.com/data/cache/noticias/29149/0x0/radar.jpg

The Falklands radar is funded by the Natural Environment Research Council (NERC). The radar is collaboration between the University of Leicester which supplied the masts, and BAS, which provided the electronic equipment.

“The electronics come from a long-established BAS radar station which is currently being moved and rebuilt because it’s on an ice shelf which is slipping into the sea,” explains Dr Milan. “When the equipment came back to the UK for refurbishment, we realized that we could combine it with a spare set of antennas and temporarily establish a station on the Falklands.”

The radar station was built with the aid of engineers from Leicester and BAS over several weeks at the start of this year and went operational on 14 February. It is based at Goose Green, a remote community which was the site of a famous battle during the 1982 Falklands conflict.

Radar system in the Falklands to monitor the "Southern Lights" (http://en.mercopress.com/2010/10/23/radar-system-in-the-falklands-to-monitor-the-southern-lights)

The radar at Goose Green joins the SuperDARN network and the data is made available on the internet.

What is SuperDARN

SuperDARN stands for Super Dual Auroral Radar Network. This network consists of over 20 radars operating on frequencies between 8 and 20 MHz and looking into the polar regions of the Earth. These radars can measure the position and velocity of charged particles in the Earth's ionosphere, the highest layer of the Earth's atmosphere.

Because the movements of these particles are tied to the movements of the Earth's magnetic field which, in turn, extends into space, SuperDARN data provides scientists with information regarding the Earth's interaction with the space environment.

SuperDARN is an international collaboration involving scientists and funding agencies of over a dozen countries ......

More info at following link

SuperDARN: What is SuperDARN (http://superdarn.jhuapl.edu/info/info.html)

There is also a SuperDARN radar in the Falklands that is funded by the US as part of the international project.

SuperDARN: Locations of Radars (http://superdarn.jhuapl.edu/fov/south.html?radar=fir)

Getting Data

SuperDARN: Getting Data (http://superdarn.jhuapl.edu/data/index.html)

[Airborne Aircrew]

I do not believe that there will be a peaceful solution myself.

60 Billion barrels of oil at $100/barrel, (twice that if someone bombs Iran), says there's a lot of people eying those little islands.I don't think anything more needs to be said.

[vernon99]

As has been said already, I am sure no one on here wants a fight, but I and I am sure many others would like to see more of a response from the UK. It is highly likely that a "show of force" would go a long way towards cooling down the current situation, and persuade any would be aggressors that it would be a bad idea.
We had some idea last time around, that Argentina was planning something, but we failed to do anything significant, our inactivity was taken as an invitation to invade.
Better to do something now, and nip this thing in the bud early, make sure those with illegal ambitions do not get the wrong message, and think they could do it again.

[tangoe]

hval, I dont agree. What I see is the opposite, the Arg know that invading is a little more tricky than last time, they wont have any UN backing if they do and theres a lot of oil they are trying to get their hands on.

They are using a lot of different resources to convince someone, the UN say, to try and convince the UK to come to the negotiating table.

It doesnt matter what I did before or what I do now, but from experience the way the UK might negotiate and the way LA negotiates are entirely different. If in a UK board room for example you ever use passion, you are unlikely to be taken seriously. Hard facts different matter. The opposite is true further south west.

pr00ne, I think I got that right. I think you need to relax a little first off, or maybe Im reading you too quickly.

Milo, are you really 92? If you are then I guess youve seen a lot of history repeting itself! And that perhaps we could learn something from your perspective!

[Jayand]

Peaceful solution? Solution to what? There will be no conflict/war.
Some gums are getting bumped nothing more. The T45 just sends a gentle reminder.

[hval]

Evening Tangoe,

As I wrote a zillion (slight exaggeration - pages 17 and 20) posts ago, I think that the Argentinians are making a political attempt at taking ownership of the Falkland Islands. Unfortunately I believe that domestically they may have got themselves in to an increasing spiral of political talk that will eventually leave them with no option but to make an invasion attempt. The argentinians appear to be deliberately provocative to the British and make the British appear to be building up for war.

Very, very few people in Argentina appear to be trying to put the brakes on the Rhetoric. The Argentinian politicians may end up with no option but to invade. Since I wrote my thoughts there has been an increase in rhetoric.

[Airborne Aircrew]

The interesting thing about this whole thread is that it doesn't matter if hval is right or not, it's the fact that someone might try to take the Falklands by force.

Since there is someone out there "raising the stakes" it needs to be met with an appropriate response... Or we'll lose more men and women fixing the issue we ignored.

[Whenurhappy]

Hval,

The Argentine government seems to be in that spiral as you described but they would soon lose what ever international support they have if they took offensive action. The UK could repel most forms of military attack however any 'show of force' by Britain - over and above what we've deployed would be read as overt aggression - which no one wants. Following the address given by their FORMIN last night, any 'aggressive' act by the UK would simply fit his narrative of the UK militarising the region. It's a matter of getting the balance right.

The UK has made it quite clear that the FI are non-negotiable; an internationally astute move would be for a referendum to be held amongst the locals. Although the outcome would be resoundingly supporting status quo ante, the domestic political damage to Cameron would be enormous. He would be accused of weakness, of caving in etc and it could prove fatal to the coalition government. Now there's an opportunity!


Seriously, I think the UK has pitched this about right. Proone - The FI are an anachronism, as are the Channel Islands and Gibraltar - but hey are British and want to remain so, so the Government is obliged to defend them.

[hval]

Whenurhappy,

Valid points in your first paragraph. Problem is that if nothing is done and the Argentinians do invade successfully (discussions as to how this possibly might be done are also in this thread) The UK then has major issues internally & externally.

Your suggestion for a referendum is interesting. Cameron could off course mention that a referendum has already been held. Giving in to Political interference from an external country is not a good way to go. Having said that, how relevant is a referendum? The Argentinians themselves have said that the principle of self-determination was not applicable to the Falkland Islands on many occasions. The Argentinians have actually absolutely no right what so ever to the Falkland Islands. If we were to listen to that then the Argentinians would have to return Argentina to the Amerindians and depart; as would much of South America, The United States and elsewhere.

Why are the Falkland Islands, Gibralter, Guernsey and Jersey an anachronism? What makes them so? What is the relevance of place being adjacent to another. Should Germany and every other nation belong to someone else as they are adjacent to at least one other country?

[Airborne Aircrew]

The UK could repel most forms of military attack however any 'show of force' by Britain - over and above what we've deployed would be read as overt aggression

When did appropriately protecting ones dominions and lands that wish to remain a sovereign territory become an "aggressive act"? Why have we become so weak willed that we won't protect our own?

[Whenurhappy]

If you watch Timerman's rambling presentation, it is clear that he has painted the UK as the aggressor and South America the peace-lovers. An additional 'show of force' would simply be manna from heaven in his eyes (and presumably those of his government) and provide more 'substance' to the regional argument. As I have pointed out, the present disposition of British forces is more than adequate to protect our interests. Even with our forces so thinly spread, we still have global reach and could respond very rapidly if tensions spill over to conflict. None of the other country in the region have the range of military options that the UK has (TLAM, Stormshadow, SSN, C17s, combat hardened troops &c).

Overseas territories, by virtue of their origins and management are anachronistic in many governments' eyes (and amongst many of our colleagues in the FCO) but the UK is duty-bound to protect them and not use them as a bargaining chip as Brown tried to do with the Cyprus SBAs in 2008. Luckily for all concerned, that fell flat!

[Capt Pit Bull]

Well, I think we need to make sure that we have sufficient capabilities in the area to be certain of dealing with any conventional or irregular attempts to invade the Islands or harass its inhabitants or flagged vessels. Whether we have that or not is a matter of debate and I don't feel qualified to pass comments (as mentioned earlier, my gut feeling is that it might be marginal... or perceived as marginal enough for somebody dumb enough to have a go).

We certainly don't need to be sending extra stuff there purely as a 'show of force' because frankly that just gives the Argentinian government political ammunition.

What we *do* need however is a more robust political response. I think it is disgusting that British subjects are currently lacking fresh produce because of Mercosur's refusal to allow FI flagged vessels to dock. It's not far off holding our people to ransom. It's bullying, pure and simple, and bullies who are allowed to have their way grow emboldened.

pb

[hval]

Prime Minister Cameron is certainly in a difficult position. Unfortunately I see him as being the wrong person for the current time. I believe that William Hague would have made a better job of it. His experiences of the military in Catterick, Leeming, Catterick Village, etc. at least provide him with some understanding of what can and can't be done. I feel that currently he is not his own man and may be saying things that he wouldn't say if he were Prime Minister. Tony Blair (whom I hate with a vengeance) would probably have done a better job.

[alemaobaiano]

Excellent points Whenurhappy

If the Argentine government can use a routine force rotation as evidence of "militarisation" imagine what would happen if HMG sent something extra down.

There is no realistic military threat to the islands from Argentina, and they would not receive military help from other South American nations, except perhaps Venezuela. Uncle Hugo would face severe problems getting his boys down south, and the usefulness of his forces in the South Atlantic is questionable. The present garrison is more than sufficient to repel any likely threat, so why inflame the situation?

The ban on FI flagged ships is largely symbolic, reports of egg shortages on the BBC not withstanding. Brazil, Uruguay and Chile have all stated that if the ships fly another flag they can put in anywhere. That's not bullying, it's regional politics, like giving a sweet to a recalcitrant child for a little peace and quiet. Even Paraguay won't allow FI flagged ships to dock there.......

Timmerman's UN presentation was widely ridiculed here, most analysts saw the rotation for what it was, a routine force rotation not an escalation. The Argentine government lacks real support both at home and regionally for anything beyond a diplomatic solution, and any military adventure would result in the isolation of the country from it's principal trading partners. Inflation and unemployment are growing in Argentina, but the people are better informed now and the Falkland Islands are way down their list of priorities. Kirschner's government can't even convince it's own people that the islands are important enough to die for.

Argentina spends about 0.9% GNP on defence, ahead only of that military powerhouse Surinam in South America. The Type-45 could splash every serviceable combat aircraft with one salvo, they have no serious amphibious capability, no way of landing armour, insufficient lift for a decisive airdrop, nothing that could achieve even local air superiority, and very little in the way of reconnaissance assets. Their armed forces know their limitations, and have told the government that they cannot mount an operation against the Falklands. Building up to the level where they could mount such an operation would take several years and require funding that simply isn't available.

All HMG has to do is not rise to the bait, continue to point out the absurdity of the Argentine claims, and follow the self-determination line, something that is widely accepted in Latin America.

TTFN

[glojo]

alemaobaiano (http://www.pprune.org/members/111835-alemaobaiano)[/COLOR]]Argentina spends about 0.9% GNP on defence, ahead only of that military powerhouse Surinam in South America. The Type-45 could splash every serviceable combat aircraft with one salvo, they have no serious amphibious capability, no way of landing armour, insufficient lift for a decisive airdrop, nothing that could achieve even local air superiority, and very little in the way of reconnaissance assets. Their armed forces know their limitations, and have told the government that they cannot mount an operation against the Falklands. Building up to the level where they could mount such an operation would take several years and require funding that simply isn't available. But apart from that are they a likely to attempt an invasion of the islands? :ok::)

[glojo]

Quick question
I am listening to all this hype about GREAT Britain sending Prince William and a type 45 to the Falklands but will they be there at the same time or as I suspect the type 45 will not arrive before the RAF pilot is back home after this six week break?

(Break as in getting away from having to put up with being constantly harassed by photographers with telephoto lens capable of snapping a fresh zitt as it breaks cover)

[Ken Scott]

From today's Telegraph online:


Falklands oilfields could yield $176bn tax windfall - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/9076530/Falklands-oilfields-could-yield-176bn-tax-windfall.html)

It looks like the Falkland Islanders will be able to afford their own defences in the near future as well as pay back the UK for 30 years of protection against Argentinian aggression. That should help to pay off the UK's debts.

Provided that the current government doesn't blow things in the near future and either allow the Argies to invade again or negotiate their handover..........

[Anthony Supplebottom]

As I said in #484:


Aside from her re-election campaign this can only be an effort by Argentine Presidrnt Cristina Kirchner (aka The Hag) to stake a claim upon the islands now verified commercially viable oil reserves!

[alwayzinit]

Some time ago whilst attending the RAF drinking and shagging championshions ( Skiing) a bunch of mates and myself were taking advantage of a long lunch between drinks!
We found ourselves in a rather couth place, general banter was ensuing at which point a very distinguished looking chap, accompanied by 2 simply stunning ladies, Mum and daughter as it turnrd out, leant over to our rather vocal bunch and the following exchange took place:

DG (Distinguished Gent): "Hess cuse me but are you Gentlemen in the British Air Force?"
Us:"Er .......Yup"
DG: "Were any of you involved in the Falklands War?"
Us: "Yes" said the only one of us who had been, followed by gobby ****e (me sorry:O) chirping in with " and we kicked the Argies arses!"
DG. Unphased by gobby little ****e..........."in that case Gentlemen my country and I owe you and your collegues a great debt. For without your help my country would not now be a Democracy! I am the Agentinian Charge d'Affaire in Geneva!"
Needless to say I felt like, well, a gob****e!

However as the title suggests without our robust reaction to the '82 invasion not only would the FI be Argentinian now but Mrs Botox Kurchener would not be in office.

So no good deed goes unpunished.

( I still squirm about my spout even now!)

Lets hope level heads prevail.

[Roadster280]

Alwayzinit - I feel for you.

Not Falklands related, but I was in a hotel bar in Beirut, where there was much alcohol, dancing and free food. All the ingredients for a great evening. Food was Mexican, which struck me as odd in Lebanon, but the Churros were rather splendid. Well, the dancing continues, and an older distinguished guy in a penguin suit slips on lands on his front. Everyone else in the bar is horrified, but not I. Roadster280 is pissing himself laughing, and of course the whole room stops and scowls at me.

Apparently it's not the done thing to laugh at the Mexican Ambassador when he slips over and starfishes into the floor.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Mrs Botox Kurchener

Sorry, but if that wrinkled, saggy faced cow is on Botox it isn't F$cking working... :uhoh:

[Capt Pit Bull]

The ban on FI flagged ships is largely symbolic, reports of egg shortages on the BBC not withstanding. Brazil, Uruguay and Chile have all stated that if the ships fly another flag they can put in anywhere. That's not bullying, it's regional politics, like giving a sweet to a recalcitrant child for a little peace and quiet. Even Paraguay won't allow FI flagged ships to dock there.......

Well, I take a different view. Re-flagging de-legitimises the Falkands as a discreet entity. It is much more than symbolic. Folding at the first little pressure is bound to cause more problems.

Plus... if you've ever raised a child you ought to know that buying 'good' behaviour with sweets might buy you a *little* peace and quiet ... but only in the short term. Pretty soon they figure out that misbehaviour is the way to get what they want, and you have a kid the throws a tantrum if they don't get what they want immediately they demand it.

pb

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Given that the air defence of the British Forces South Atlantic Islands (BFSAI) will soon become a joint effort between the Typhoons, the Rapiers and the Type 45, maybe the overall effort should be termed Joint Air Power South Atlantic Islands. Or JAPSAI for short...

:E

[Airborne Aircrew]

..no doubt they would soon be assisted with the Support Helicopter Intervention Team, South.

[alemaobaiano]

pb

The Falklands are currently a British Overseas Territory, and as such I don't see a problem flying the Red Ensign when putting into South American ports, however I can see your point of view.

The second part of my comment was largely tongue in cheek, I have successfully raised two lovely daughters and now have three grandchildren, thanks very much. My comment about docking in Paraguay should have given it away :E


TTFN

[Courtney Mil]

alema... whatever. I'll to work out the name later. I agree with your points and with your analysis of the current situation. Thanks for that.

Congrats on all your offspring.

[TEEEJ]

Apologies if this has been posted before. I had a quick search and couldn't find a previous posting.

The video is just a snippet from the BBC programme that was broadcast during January 2012.

From You Tube description.

A British Falklands veteran embarks on an extraordinary journey to meet the Argentine pilot he thought he'd killed in the 1982 conflict.

Neil Wilkinson from Leeds was 22-years-old when, as an anti-aircraft gunner onboard HMS Intrepid, he shot down an enemy skyhawk fighter jet.

For decades he believed the pilot was dead.

But First Lieutenent Mariano Velasco had ejected from his burning aircraft and survived.

Now, three decades on, the two former enemies have come face to face for the first time.

Nicola Rees reports from the Falklands and Argentina for BBC Look North and BBC Inside Out in Yorkshire.

rb0OHA8m_ak&feature=related


Ministry of Defence | Defence News | History and Honour | IN PICTURES: Falklands veteran meets Argentine pilot he shot down 30 years ago (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/InPicturesFalklandsVeteranMeetsArgentinePilotHeShotDown30Yea rsAgo.htm)

BBC News - Falklands veteran meets Argentine 'enemy' 30 years on (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-16513145)

Ministry of Defence | Picture Viewers | GALLERY: Meeting the Enemy (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/PictureViewers/GalleryMeetingTheEnemy.htm)

[Lonewolf_50]

I don't understand how anyone can stand the lies about "settling a dispute" since the dispute was settled in 1982.

If ever the Ministry of Truth was in operation, and Newspeak was running amok, it is at the UN and coming out of the mouths of any number of South American heads of state and their moutpieces.

The residents of the FI wish to remain British citizens. THAT is the key issue to hand. They wish not to be invaded by an aggressor, any more than Kuwaitis wanted to be invaded by Iraqis.

The Argies wish to achieve by lies and politics (ooh, sorry, I was redundant there) that which they cannot take by force, but which they would take by force if they could.

The Korean peninsula still has mine fields, since a certain nation proved it would engage in aggression and attach the other: North to South.

The British have a powerful data point that the Argies will use aggression to get a particular plot of land. See 1982. Argentina invaded someone elses territory, and started a war.
The British government are 100% justified in securing their territory and PREVENTING a war by being ready.

THAT message needs to be put forth over and over and over.

Mr Cameron, get with it. :mad:

President Obama, get a clue. :mad:

[Airborne Aircrew]

President Obama, get a clue

Fat chance of that....

[thowman]

I don't understand how anyone can stand the lies about "settling a dispute" since the dispute was settled in 1982.

The dispute was actually settled in 1850 when Britain and Argentina signed a peace treaty after the the Anglo-French intervention in Uruguay went a bit pear-shaped. A peace treaty is accepted as being a new start between nations, and if there were any outstanding unresolved disputes they are usually written into the treaty. In the 1850 Araña-Southern Treaty, no mention is made of the sovereignty of the Falkands and it is accepted that the Argentine leadership of the day dropped the issue in order to gain peace. Argentine historians accept this ommision as a bit of an error on their part and undermines the legitamacy of their claim on the Islands.

From this date, the issue of sovereignty was not raised again by the Argentine government until 1941 - so it seem to be forgotten for 91 years, until Britain seem to be on the point of collapse during the dark years of WW2, and the Argentines brought the issue up again in order to position themselves for a grab of the territory if Britain was put out of the war. At the opening of the Argentine congress each year, the leader reads a list of messages that outline Argentina issues and plans, and for 91 years the Falklands were not even mentioned. It has been ever since (that's when they actually have a democracy).

Britain offered 3 times in the 1950 to take the dispute to the International Court of Justice, and 3 times Argentina declined, and furthermore stated that they would not accept the adjudication of the ICJ over the dispute. I wonder why? It's because their claim actually isn't that strong, whatever CFK (Christina Fernandez de Kirchner) would have you believe. Funnily enough there is never a mention of this peace treaty when the Argentines present their own version of the dodgy dossier.

[Churchills Ghost]

Sean Penn accuses Britain of 'colonialism' over Falklands

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02137/Sean-Penn_2137788b.jpg

At a meeting with Argentine president Cristina Kirchner, the Left-wing Hollywood actor referred to the islands "the Malvinas Islands of Argentina" and said Britain should entered into a UN-sponsored dialogue over their sovereignty.

More hogwash here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9080473/Sean-Penn-accuses-Britain-of-colonialism-over-Falklands.html).


Sean

I never did like your acting and I suppose you're not that good as a lover either (at least according to Madge). However, your politics is even worse than your acting (if that were possible).

You may not like Britain (probably because your ex moved here or you don't understand us or both) but no need to take up issues which you clearly don't understand.

You are, in the British definition .. a total plonker!

CG

[thowman]

Isn't Penn a member of the

Film
Actors
Guild?

:)

[Lonewolf_50]

thow:
Thanks for the history lesson. :ok: It showcases how big a load of liars they are in Buenos Aires. Hadn't realized about the offers in the 50's.

How sad. :(

As to Penn: arrggh, how embarassing to have him shoot of his mouth again whilst devoid of a clue. Oh well, what does one expect from people who are paid millions to play make believe, as a career? :hmm:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ahhhhhhhhhh..... Sean Penn... The world's most irrelevant man...

[500N]

Maybe someone should tell Sean, being an American that before commenting on the UK / Falklands, he should get the US to clean up it's act in regards to invading other countries and a few other things.

I notice this in the article "The Oscar-nominated Penn has long been a friend of South American nationalism, visiting both Venezuela's Hugo Chávez and Cuba's"


AA
Agree.

A classic case of a B Grade actor having to use other avenues to keep in the limelight.

[Lonewolf_50]

500N, he ought to stop spouting off about things he's ignorant of.

America's various wars (no, they've nothing to do with "colonialism") and why the 1982 war over the Falklands ought to be the last, aren't related topics.

It's far more related to how Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was opposed by the US:

Oh, wait, wasn't Sean an apologist for Saddam?

At least he's consistent ... consistently wrong.

[thowman]

So what is Puerto Rico, if it's not an overseas possession?

One of the many conspiracies doing the rounds at the moment among the more fanatical Argentines at another popular messaging site beginning with T is that the Britsh sent a message via Pope JP2 that the British would use a WE177 nuclear weapon on the city of Cordoba delivered by Vulcan if they didn't withdraw from the Falklands. :ugh:

[Milo Minderbinder]

"So what is Puerto Rico, if it's not an overseas possession?"

Or Guam, surely thats a colonial anachronistic overseas possession if anything is?
Or how about the so-called "United States Minor Outlying Islands," such as Wake and Midway, most of which had prior claims (usually Spanish) before the USA annexed them?
It would seem the Monroe doctrine opposes European rule of American states, but does not prevent USA rule of Pacific territories closer to Asia than Anerica

[500N]

lonewolf

I was referring to everything the US seems to do, including what you said which was one of the things I was referring to as well as what thowman and Milo were commenting on.

Regardless of the reasons, you could even extend it to the US Invasion of Grenada if you really wanted to,a Commonwealth realm !

[stilton]

TEEJ,


Interesting documentary but I am a little puzzled as to why this Gunner would feel badly he shot down that Argy A4, possibly killing the Pilot.


It was kill or be killed wasn't it ?

[Capt Pit Bull]

The Falklands are currently a British Overseas Territory, and as such I don't see a problem flying the Red Ensign when putting into South American ports, however I can see your point of view.

I note from this mornings news that the Argentine Confederation of Transport Workers has decided to boycott all British flagged vessels or any flags of convenience used by 'british pirates'.

So, as I said, acquiescing to the first round of harrassment by re-flagging simply invites more.

South America is an important emerging market for several key industries in the UK. We cannot afford to be harassed like this; Kirchner's whipping up of Mercosur is a major economic attack against us and should be viewed as such.

[ORAC]

Or how about the so-called "United States Minor Outlying Islands," such as Wake and Midway, most of which had prior claims (usually Spanish) before the USA annexed them? And the coup d'etat deposing the Queen of Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liliuokalani) and it's annexation by the USA......

[Buster Hyman]

Is Sean Penn the Jane Fonda of our time?

[RUCAWO]

Oh dear Mr Penn has an open facebook page :E

[Buster Hyman]

Oh dear Mr Penn has an open FacePPRuNe page :E
Sorted... :E

[Dunky]

Is Sean Penn the Jane Fonda of our time?

He's not that good an actor, or as good looking, but I know what you mean :)

[Milo Minderbinder]

they're both related to King Cnut if you see what I mean

[alemaobaiano]

pb

I don't know how complete the report that you read was, but having seen the press release from the CATT, signed by a certain Sr. Omar Viviani, leader of the taxi-drivers union and Argentina's very own Red Robbo, this is obviously a political statement. Someone in the Casa Rosada said jump, CATT simply asked how high.

The "boycott" will apply to all vessels flying the Red Ensign, FI flag, or any flag from Bermuda, the Bahamas, Panama, Cyprus, Malta and a few other places.

The "boycott" will also apply to aircraft, so that's the BA flight to Buenos Aires off the menu.

The statement also refers to Argentina as a peace-loving nation, ignoring a certain invasion and a separate long-running territorial dispute with Chile.

Nobody has any concrete ideas, or even plans, as to how the "boycott" will work or when it will come into effect, nor do they have any idea how many of their members will actual go along with the "boycott", after all nobody bothered to ask those very members. This organisation doesn't even represent all port workers, so what disruption they are capable of causing is open for debate. You might have problems getting a taxi if you a wearing a Union Jack t-shirt and kiss-me-quick hat, but even then I suspect that economic reality will triumph.

Expect one highly publicised event, to grab headlines, and then watch as this idea fades into obscurity.

As a large part of the world's merchant fleet is flagged in nations like Panama and Bermuda who would suffer most if this "boycott" went ahead?

South America is an important emerging market for several key industries in the UK. We cannot afford to be harassed like this; Kirchner's whipping up of Mercosur is a major economic attack against us and should be viewed as such.

And the UK is a major market for South America too, hence the lack of any effective support for Argentina. She can't even whip up a majority of her own people, let alone MERCOSUR.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you propose?

TTFN

[Dengue_Dude]

Is Sean Penn the Jane Fonda of our time?

Nope, she had nice tits . . .

Actually I think this may bounce back on Argentina, this sort of endorsement from 'actors' is often a fleeting thing because they have a different agenda.

Let's face it, he has no credibility - perhaps that's where they are similar.

[sitigeltfel]

Penn is obviously suffering from a severe degree of confusion when he rants about Britains "colonisation" of the Falklands. If he feels so strongly about colonisation, maybe he and his family should just http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif off back to Ireland and leave the Americas to the natives.

[BEagle]

Dengue_Dude, I would tend to agree with the accuracy of your anatomical assessment!

[RUCAWO]

Penn is obviously suffering from a severe degree of confusion when he rants about Britains "colonisation" of the Falklands. If he feels so strongly about colonisation, maybe he and his family should just http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif off back to Ireland and leave the Americas to the natives.


We don't want him :E

[Capt Pit Bull]

ale,


Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you propose?

Honestly? No idea. I'm not enough of an economist to understand who has the most to lose in a trade war. (Everyone has something to lose, it's just a question of how much how soon).

But my gut instinct would be a short sharp counter sanction. Big in scope but very short duration. (24 maybe 48 hours). I.E. not long enough to cause serious problems but big enough to send a message.... we don't want trouble but if you insist on causing it we *will* respond in kind. (Bullies only understand actions, not words).

Some sort of shot across the bows of the rest of the mercosurs wouldn't be a bad idea either, make it clear that supporting that woman is a bad idea.

(What I hate about this is the whipping up of ill feeling for one woman's political benefit. The huge irony is that all this does is entrench positions. If the argentinians just took the long term view they could gain the majority share of the support work for petroleum extraction and de facto integrate the FI economically, the rest would follow in course. All this has achieved is to reset the clock to 1982.)

p.s. somebody tell sean penn to get a haircut.

pb

[Lonewolf_50]

Fascinating bit of ignorance among some posters here about what year it is: 2012.

Also fascinating ignorance by some posters about Puerto Rican Statehood, and sovereignty/independence, which have been internal issues in PR for about 40 years, perhaps longer, to include some of the first terrorist attacks on the CONUS. Oddly enough, the majority of folk inside Puerto Rico keep NOT voting to be 51st state, nor an independent nation.

There is a core, and at times vocal, faction within Puerto Rico who (~ 10% or so), who continue to agitate for independence. I heartily support their efforts. I believe they have the right. Why do you think they keep failing? Note: Roosevelt Roads has been closed for some years.

I also note that Hawaii is a state. The year is 2012. I note that Tasmania is a state of Austrailia, and Norther Ireland is part of the UK.

What a load of hypocrites, you lot. Particularly as Guam is a US possession, as confirmed by a recent war (1945) just as Falklands are a British possession, as reconfirmed by a recent war (1982).

You will also note that Guam has not been agitating to be other than a US territory. The year is 2012.

Any of you got an idea why they might take such positions?
Any of you actually know any Guamanians?
I went to school with a few.

EDIT: Sorry for the derail, but I get annoyed with people digging up ancient history when I am talking about current events. We don't time travel, folks. We can only move forward.

[Airborne Aircrew]

We can only move forward

Giving proper deference to history of course...

[Milo Minderbinder]

Lonewolf
You're missing the point, What was simply being got at is that for a USA citizen to claim UK possession of the Falklands is "colonial" is ignoring the fact that the USA's control of the various Oceanic and Caribbean territories is equally colonial.
People like Penn (who incidentally isn't of Irish ancestry) who claim we have no right to be in the FI are ignoring their own countries equally questionable rights to control its territories. Either both the USA and UK are in legal possession, or both are not. Which is it?
Many of those USA held lands are held under a unilateral declaration that the USA could seize any island holding guano deposits that it fancied: basically the USA decreed that wherever there was unclaimed bird ****, it was theirs.
No-ones suggesting that the USA should have to give those islands up - after all if you like guano that much, you're welcome to it.

[Dengue_Dude]

Just on the other hand.

Whilst remaining 'neutral' last time the US supplied us with Int and 9Ls which made a difference.

Not so sure with this 'south america-phile' incumbent in the very light coloured house.

I daresay we'll see. Hmmm, not a good time to say I really don't care very much. When operating Timmy northbound for the last time, I thought good riddance.

The Bennies didn't seem overly interested in being nice to those ensuring their first language remained English.

I said in 1982, we should have given each Bennie a £1,000,000 and a Spanish dictionary and listened to the deafening silence about 'remaining' British.

[Navaleye]

Completely the wrong thing to do. All they want to so is steal the oil that belongs to the Islanders and the Crown. We don't need them. They lost the 1982 war which settled the matter once and for all.

[Lonewolf_50]

Milo, you might have noticed that I disagree with Penn.

As to Guam, there's a bit more to that than guano. ;)
Likewise Puerto Rico. :cool:

Navaleye, I agree with your position.

FWIW, Clausewitz has a pithy little quote along the lines of
"In war, the outcome is never final" or "never finished" or something like that.

What's behind that bon mot seems, to me, to be a restatement of the premise that war is a subset of politics. Following that thought, even if you think the battle, or war, is won, each morning thereafter some wag gets up and tries to get what he wants, via whatever scheming and skullduggery can be arranged in politics (also called the "art of the possible") via another means.

That looks like what Kirchner is doing, but I'll offer that she's trying a page from Sun Tzu's book.

"The acme of skill is to win the war without fighting."

She's trying to conquer the islands without having to put it to the test, as I suspect she understands that her team are probably not up to it.

I hope your PM understands what she's up to.

[Whenurhappy]

Good post - and if the UK imposed sanctions we'd play into their game, their 'narrative' and in doing so Argentina would be able to count on the support of most of South America. However, any supposed sanctions that Argentina imposes would be illegal and likely to do more damage to their beleaguered economy. The UK simply has to sit back, refute rhetoric with fact, sound in the knowledge that UNSCR 512 supports the UK's stance and we still have the fire power to maintain sovereignty and paradoxically, the 'self-determination' of the FI population.

[Navaleye]

Agree with above completely. Make no comment and ignore them. Let's make the 30th celebrations a good one.

[Milo Minderbinder]

This is the problem with sanctions / boycotts

from Argentina (http://www.ukti.gov.uk/export/countries/americas/southamerica/argentina.html)
" The UK is the sixth largest investor in Argentina, investing over US $2 billion in the last three years."

Quite a target for potential discriminatory taxation or even nationalisation there. I'm sure Argentina's investments in the UK are much smaller
They can do more damage to us than we can to them

[alemaobaiano]

pb

I can't think of any short term measure that would work, but why bother when Kirschner is screwing up Argentina's economy better than any sanctions ever would? Despite a lot of hot air from the Casa Rosada the UK has the upper hand militarily, diplomatically and economically. I'm with Whenurhappy on this, the best thing for the UK to do is nothing.

Milo

On the contrary, Argentina depends very heavily on foreign investment and is unlikely to do anything to jeopardise that. Their industrial base would fold without such investment, and nationalising any foreign assets would shut that door for a very long time. As for punitive taxation, well they already do that to their MERCOSUR partners :rolleyes:

TTFN

[Milo Minderbinder]

alemaobaiano (http://www.pprune.org/members/111835-alemaobaiano)

but wouldn't the Chinese simply jump in and replace the UK as investors?

[parabellum]

Not so sure with this 'south america-phile' incumbent in the very light coloured house.


Presidents come and go but the various countries intelligence services go back a long way and will probably still talk to each other regardless of who is in the White House. Hard aid like Sidewinders may be a bit more difficult to accomplish but there is usually a way round, without bothering the incumbent POTUS with such mundane matters!;)

[Lonewolf_50]

I think the Chinese would be very pleased to displace the Brits financially and economically, in Argentina.

They are also unlikely to ever be swayed by any altruistic or moral arguments for modifications in relationships. They seem to play hardball as a habit.

Are the Argentines sure they want to break off with the Brits?

There are far worse people to deal with.

[LFFC]

Argentina threatens launch of Shanghai Surprise 2 against UK (http://www.thenewsgrind.com/celebrity/argentina-threatens-launch-of-shanghai-surprise-2-against-uk/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheNewsGrind+%28The+News+Grind%29)


Sean Penn is working with the Argentina military to release a three-hour sequel to the movie Shanghai Surprise if the UK refuses to give up its rights to the Falkland Islands, it was revealed today.

The plot, dubbed the Movie of Mass Destruction, has been uncovered by British Army intelligence, just hours after the US actor publicly backed Argentina over the South Atlantic islands.

It is understood Penn will reunite with his ex-wife Madonna to inflict a double DVD of Shanghai Surprise 1 and 2, if a diplomatic solution to the conflict cannot be found.

:)

[Roadster280]

I can't equate the ordinary Argentinian with what their government is spouting. I went to BA about 5 years ago on business, and found it very agreeable. I thought I'd be ostracized, but far from it. The place itself is like a European capital, the people speak Spanish with an Italian accent, and half of them have British names. I was made very welcome, and had a good trip, made all the better by the locally produced Warsteiner, which is a very passable imitation of the real thing.

I agree the best thing for the UK is to say and do nothing. It should just die a death. In the meantime, regularly ask the Falklanders to confirm in a referendum which government/sovereignty they would prefer. Say every 4 or 5 years. Trot that out as ammo at the UN. Politically, job done. I just don't see a military solution on their part.

[Whenurhappy]

Roadster 280

As I suggested in an earlier post, if DC (or whoever is PM at the time) proposes a referendum amongst the FI population, it will be seen by the UK public as bowing to international pressure and an absolute gift for the opposition - and followed by certain political death. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps the UK public are happy for a referendum on the sovereignty of a high-profile OT (even if the outcome is abundently clear).

Let's maintain our defences, with frequent media coverage of our routine deployments, refute the nonsense from Argentina in a measured way, and that's it. Boycotts of British financial interests, although considerably greater than Aregntine interests in Britain, will do considerable damage to their weak economy.

Where's my Fray-Bentos pie?

[bedsted]

If there was to be another ‘Plan Red’, General Douglas MacArthur’s plan to invade the UK in 1930, I’m sure Penn would be the first to volunteer his services. What a plonker.

‘Closest allies’, did Tommy Cooper say that?

[Captivep]

I don't see why proposing a referendum by the Falklanders would be a bad idea; simply offer to make the result binding in all parties. We promise to hand over the if 50.1% of the population want it, the Argentineans shup up if 50.1% (or more likely, 99.9%) of the Islanders want to stay under British sovereignty. What could be fairer than that?

Argentina is a strange paradox, though. I was in BA last year and found them all very welcoming and, indeed anglophile. The backdrop of the "Malvinas" is everywhere (even their tv weather forecasts include the temperature for Stanley) but it was never brought up in conversation by anybody I met.

[Heathrow Harry]

last year I was speaking to a couple of long time Falklanders (one of who spent 40+days locked up in a shed near Goose Green in 1982)

They both reckoned that in the 1970's the general view was that (ufortunately) the Uk was going to ditch them and they were looking forward to a Hong Kong type of solution with maybe a 99 year phase in of Argie rule

people were sending their kids to Uni in BA and some were learning Spanish. The Argies had an enlightened view and were subsidising the only air link

The 1982 invasion was purely to protect the military in Argentina from protests aboutthe regime there and it put back co-operation for a lifetime

If Mrs Kircher would just shut up and offer a weekly flight to BA, maybe a deal on higher education, some sort of develoved Govt then in maybe 25 years the locals would accept

the REALLY odd thing is that no-one can pordcue a single Argentinian who wants to go & live in the Falklands - and I can see their point TBH - its purely a politcial issue

[Capt Pit Bull]

pb

I can't think of any short term measure that would work, but why bother when Kirschner is screwing up Argentina's economy better than any sanctions ever would? Despite a lot of hot air from the Casa Rosada the UK has the upper hand militarily, diplomatically and economically. I'm with Whenurhappy on this, the best thing for the UK to do is nothing.


OK, on reflection I'll go with that.

I think I might make a point of doing nothing though ;)

"We briefly thought about counter sanctions but honestly we can't be bothered <yawn>"

[Churchills Ghost]

Sean Penn calls Prince William's deployment to Falkland Islands 'unthinkable'


Sean Penn has continued his attack on Britain over the Falkland Islands, calling the Duke of Cambridge's deployment "unthinkable".


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02139/penn-falklands_2139061b.jpg
Sean Penn believes Argentine President Cristina Fernandez De Kirchner is justified in her desire to reclaim the "Malvinas Islands of Agentina" for her people

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02139/penn-2_2139195b.jpg
Sean Penn and Uruguayan President Jose Mujica are now best of freinds since the actor declared that "Britain is the enemy of the peoples of South America"

http://lifeisreallybeautiful.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Search-and-rescue-helicopter-pilot-Prince-William.jpg
Prince Willian is, in Penn's opinion, an agent of dissension who represents Britain's "superior and colonialist supremacy" which "holds South American's and their hopes in contempt" and with his tour to the Falklands being "unthinkable"

The Hollywood actor accused Britain of insensitivity for sending Prince William to the disputed islands claimed by Argentina.

Speaking in Uruguay having met President Jose Mujica, Penn repeated his assertion made in Argentina on Monday that Britain's stance over the Falklands was "colonialist, ludicrous and archaic".

"My oh my, aren't people sensitive to the word colonialism, particularly those who implement colonialism," said the double Oscar winner."

It's unthinkable that the United Kingdom can make a conscious decision to deploy a prince within the military to the Malvinas, knowing the great emotional sensitivity both of mothers and fathers in the United Kingdom and in Argentina who lost sons and daughters in a war of islands with a population of so few.

More tosh here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9083438/Sean-Penn-calls-Prince-Williams-deployment-to-Falkland-Islands-unthinkable.html)

Penn might have retained a modicum of respect in his twilight years had he kept away from the screen and kept his mouth firmly closed in public. All hope of that is now gone though and the chap clearly has no genuine friends as they would, by now, have told him that his comments display an appauling lack of knowledge of both American and European culture, politics and history.

The Z list actor is flailing around South America in a stupified political daze unaware of how ignorant he is exposing himself to be and how foolish he makes those he associates with to appear!

[sitigeltfel]

Is Argie corned beef still eaten by UK forces?

[engineer(retard)]

"Sean Penn and Uruguayan President Jose Mujica are now best of freinds since the actor declared that "Britain is the enemy of the peoples of South America""

Look like Father and Son to me :cool:

[fabs]

Does anyone really care about the ramblings of this wife beater?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Does anyone really care about the ramblings of this wife beater?

By the look of it, so far:

a) South American Presidents
b) The media
c) The impressionable
d) The uneducated

and perhaps a few more!

[sitigeltfel]

It's a strange world. Kirchner, a strong advocate of womens rights and an admirer of Eva Peron whom she emulates, allies herself politically with an opportunist fading celeb who has form for beating the crap out of his wife with a baseball bat.

The ex wife, Madonna, has herself played the part of Evita, a B list celeb who became the first lady of Argentina. Señora Kirchner had better watch her back.

[Lonewolf_50]

As she lost her husband, maybe she want's something more from Sean than a little public lip service. :cool:

[BEagle]

...the REALLY odd thing is that no-one can produce a single Argentinian who wants to go & live in the Falklands...

So it seems they're pretty sensible, on the whole.

[Fox Four]

If you need to rub salt in the wound!

BBC News - Falklands War surrender telex to be auctioned (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17047498)

Brilliant! :ok:

[barry lloyd]

Perhaps Mr Penn should be shown the islands of Diego Garcia and Ascension on a map (because for sure he will never have heard of them), and have it explained to him how useful these two British islands are to the US.

[Canardly]

"It is a rare find of great historical importance and will excite considerable interest from around the world."Wonder if there'll be any interest from Argentina? :)

[500N]

Fox Four

Maybe the Gov't needs to copy it, highlight the following text in a bright highlight pen

"Major General Menendez surrendered to me all Agentine Armed forces in East and West Falklands" and "The Falklands Islands are once more under the Government desired "

and then send a framed copy to Argentina's President Cristina Kirchner so it arrives at the exact time of the 30th Anniversary of the surrender with a note saying we don't want to have another like this in the future !

[Lonewolf_50]

barry: I agree, but all that would do for Penn is induce a rant about American and British Cololnialism, Gotterdamerung, and why Madonna should never have left him. :p

[jetfour]

So Mr Penn, when does America go back to the Red Indians?

Nah! Thought not:*

[Just This Once...]

Remind you of a certain union of liberal Hollywood actors:

They are confronted by the Film Actors Guild (FAG) and a violent battle ensues, which involves panthers being released at the team, and leaving most of the Guild brutally slain, with Alec Baldwin remaining alive as the host of the ceremony...

So ronery...

[Buster Hyman]

'Tis a pity Ricky Gervais isn't hosting the Oscars.... :E

[Airborne Aircrew]

Alec Baldwin and Penn should be cellmates... They're both bloody retards.

[TEEEJ]

Hi Stilton,

You would probably have to ask Neil Wilkinson that question. See following link for letters and accounts from Neil Wilkinson and Mariano Velasco.

Neil Wikinson also has a claim on a Dagger / Mirage a few days before downing the Skyhawk.

All about Neil Wilkinson, Sailor in the Falklands War, British Sailor HMS Intrepid (http://yellowairplane.com/Adventures/Falkland_Islands_War_Guestbook/A5-About_Neil_Wilkinson.html)

[Green Flash]

Who is Sean Penn and is he important?

[Green Flash]

Thought so.

[Navaleye]

Enemy does not have the moral fibre for a stand up fight. With an SSN and T45 on station there is nothing they can do. The RAF's contribution will keep their ancient aircraft at at bay. ...Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough... You are not. Not even close. All we have to do is enlarge the cemeteries or just dig up the whole lot and dump all it in the sea. They should have been buried at sea in first place is which what the Navy was willing to do or return them to Argentina. If the enemy did not want them that shows what little respect they have for their own people.

[The Wawa Zone]

Those pix of Sean, Christina and Jose looks like they were taken on Graduation Day from the drug rehab centre.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Those pix of Sean, Christina and Jose looks like they were taken on Graduation Day from the drug rehab centre.
Indeed!

The Argies couldn't give a toss about the Falklands, even if they were situated just three miles off their coast - this is about oil pie, pure and simple, and Kirchner wants a slice of it!

[Buster Hyman]

The Argies couldn't give a toss about the Falklands, even if they were situated just three miles off their coast - this is about oil pie, pure and simple, and Kirchner wants a slice of it!
So, if Britain offered them the Islands, but on condition that all the fishing & oil rights remained under British control, they'd go for it? I wonder...:hmm:

[Churchills Ghost]

I think Supplebottom inferred the exact opposite, that if we handed over the natural resources they would be more than pleased for us to retain 'title' to the islands!

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Correct! :ok:

[thowman]

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x367/thowman/AltxuypCQAEKeax.jpg

[Jayand]

Yeah because we have never gone to war over oil have we?

[WillDAQ]

Yeah because we have never gone to war over oil have we?
Not in the unusual situation of it being our oil to start with!

[Evanelpus]

Who is Sean Penn and is he important?

Exactly my friend.

The Yanks can spout to us Brits about the Falklands when they remember why they claim Hawaii as a US State. Nuff said!

[Churchills Ghost]

Sean Penn should be fed to crocodiles for saying Britain is "colonialist, ludicrous and archaic" over the Falkland Islands, Ben Fogle has said on (something that rhymes with hit her), challenging the star to a public debate.

Falklands: Sean Penn should be fed to crocodiles says Ben Fogle - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9085950/Falklands-Sean-Penn-should-be-fed-to-crocodiles-says-Ben-Fogle.html)



Well, I never expected a response like this from the littel Fogle but, I must say, credit where its due, nice to see a Brit with balls, even if his voice is a little higher pitched than one would have liked.

Well done Ben! :D

http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/ne/skynews/20100130/12/2718049081-churchill-s-cigar-stump-fetches-4-500.jpg?x=310&y=231&q=75&wc=321&hc=240&xc=40&yc=1&sig=ygM38FP2zzKnzgXXi9p7BA--

Ben, this is for you from my personal collection (my earlier days and indeed when I was still alive!). A small thank you for being willing to defend our honour.

[Buster Hyman]

I think Supplebottom inferred the exact opposite, that if we handed over the natural resources they would be more than pleased for us to retain 'title' to the islands!

We need irony smileys... http://www.pprune.org/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAkGBwgHBgkIBwgKCgkLDRYPDQwMDRsUFRAWIB0iIiAdHx8kKDQsJCYx Jx8fLT0tMTU3Ojo6Iys/RD84QzQ5Ojf/2wBDAQoKCg0MDRoPDxo3JR8lNzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3 Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzc3Nzf/wAARCAAzAD0DASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAGQAAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYHBQQC/8QAQBAAAQMCBAQCBQgHCQAAAAAAAQIDBAURAAYSExQhIjEHFRYjJDJCCDNBU VZhlNI2RnF1hLPDJTVEUmNzgZGx/8QAGQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAIxEAAgIBAwMFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECEQMEEiExUbEFEzNBwf/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8AodJm5knZch1qRWaFEZkQ0S3NymOaWUqQFm6jIAsAe/Ltj27PqrXBbubMso4+3B6oCxxF7W2/auu+pPa/cfXjxRKSmt+GuXoK3lsoMOnuqW2VBVm9pywKSCknRbUDcXv9GO6n5ZTBYpbK Ja1op9RkzUlwKWpYdD40lSlEkjf94kk6fv5AHI1PqrvG7WbMsr4C/GaYCzw9r33Paui2lXe3Y/VhbzZln0yZpM2pZtoCowWtiG4zAu2+44UjSkmQQpV27ADn72G+o5ZTOiVlhU taDUZjUxC0BSSyttDISLpUFEamASUlJsSAQbKxySMovS6WIkmp6nfK5sBTuh xd+IUg6/WOrV06LWKje/IpAAwmk1TGm07Ry0zzCjREUNrN2XNdJhoDjbsBW60yhCRrcHEiwtpJNgOeNH XX+O4H0iy/xm1vcP5Y5ubd7a9PE3035X7Xx0VjL3mXnntW15rS0wPm9W1be6+/P57ty93vz5Ho9/b/AJjxXqOK43Y2+riNjh76720bfw6b6ueq3ThiORuTWnUOrazPlxaGX+GcUmnL IQ9cJ2z7VyXdSRp73IH04UfE3PGash+W+tos/jd3/AOtaNGj/XVe+v7u2G6nZRTDjR2VykPhmHTo3WyoAmI4pYXyWDdRVyF7AgX1C4xNflNfq 3/Ff0sAFVyJ+g+Xv3XG/lJxuYw/QzKv2aov4Br8uD0Myr9mqL+Aa/LgAX6lkebNchO78ULhP1CQhJ+MvSkvISFlBU2dAUkuIstCiCm9jfY8glelvm u4ztbu7v6jvbezt8La3zWv119VtfwX6sdHoZlX7NUX8A1+XEy8YaBRafPoaY FIp8VLrUouBiMhAWQWbXsOdrn/ALOIZJ7IuXYlCO+SiOkPKlQh0h6OOFdkOQ4JVpkKaC57S1LcklW2q6ydtWpS VFZQAoWxo5dy8/TFU96Y9xEllqbuu7g9+Q+h4iwQAqxSRqGjt7nVZOFQ8u0Frw8pVRTlSmVCZ5 XHcKTCbUt1RbTdROkqPck2ClHnYKNgcTYyyrqeqHh9BdPNcR+ioLkc/S2rU6hV09jdCTcc0jsKsuojidNeF5aElZXMQ75TX6t/xX9LDTlynUCfU0xE0TK9aiqQpSqjTaWlttlQ+BVwpBPbs5r609GkFWGz0Myr 9mqL+Aa/LizFlWSO5IGqNzBgwYsEGJR43/3jl/8A2Zf/AKxir4ivjg1MGY4TiEuELggQ1qd9UhaXCXrpv9KVNC9ufL/Lyp1HxMniltmnV8jtTq8xlzwvoVQeRur8tiNssBYSXXFNpAAP1d1EgEhKVGx thdo1S8/kyF1ar1R6S0FLcZgPPsJZQCTpDbJHf4dWpah2KgOWNOo9ee8M6bVJE6S9BhO MyIsJaGbtw9nbStRQi+oayo3VYI5nqFscNAzd5c2EykPFQ7lpla0q+8aQbfs PMc+4sTg9Sln2r2r78OmcvU55wyRq6oqNIrLMR+M0zVFVWkynuHYmLUFbDmm 6U7tgHWzyQFElW50krKjobMQqu5vmzYjYYaWLy4zjOiwcbCXkHcWVBQQCrQB dJsSm4JVpFUyRmF3MVHU9LYQzNjO8PKS0SWy4EJVdBPPSQtPI8wbjna50aPP PLF71T+l144/TThzxy9BhwYMGNpoDEU+UfLfhuZccjL0LKZSSbA8vU/X+zBgwmk1TGm07RT8ifoPl791xv5ScQjxqjM5WzcxFoCBCjvwkyFtIN061OO A6Qb6RZIskWAtyAwYMDSfUhKMZKpKyzeH1DpjOTILiYba11WAy7OLt3N8qbF wrVfp6ldPujUbDmcM0GFFp8VEWBGZixm76GWGwhCbm5sByHMk/84MGGlQ0klSP/9k=http://www.pprune.org/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBggGCxMIEggKCQkKDRYODQwMDRoTFBAWHxwhIB8cGx4jJzIqIyUv JR4eKzssLzM1ODg4ISo9QTw2QTI3ODEBCQoKDQsNGQ4OGTUkHiQ1NTU1NTU1 NTU1NTU1NTU1NTU1NTU1LDU1NTU1NTU1NTU0NTY1NTUtNTY1NDU1NTUwNf/AABEIADIANQMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAEBAQEBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAABwYEBQMIAv/EADEQAAEDBAAEBQEHBQAAAAAAAAECAwQABRESBhMUIQcVIjFBMhYjNkJRdbU lQ1KRof/EABkBAAMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADBAECBf/EACkRAAEDAgIKAwEAAAAAAAAAAAEAAgMEESExE0FRYnGRscHR8BIigTL/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ALjSlKEJXLc7nEs8dc559MeMwnZbivj4AAHcknAAHckgDua6qnvFjrnGt4Rw ehamoMLWVcnWzhROMpbwcAgbNqz6vUpB7aEHl7viLp9PDppA0mwzJ2AZn3M4 LG+Z3nrPtTzZPnmnXeV6nPlm+NeZjXTPoxrnP3uPzVarZc4l4jonMvpkRn07 IcT8/BBB7gg5BB7ggg9xWZ8jY+1HP6WR0/2e6PTox0mnOzpzM42x/b1+nvn4rzeE3XOCrwvg9a1OwZu0q2uuHKgcZU3gZAB1cVn0+pKz33AC2gxmx OfVWTObVxlzG2LNW73I1nMg31KhUpSnLzErhud9tVk16i5woHOzy+qkIa3xj ONiM4yP9is34l8aq4SjNMtuMtTri7ymnXjqhlAwFOElJHYqQO/ttthQSQZ3dLcxLQpxqFdZz7oCkzegkvqfIGR97qeYCn2OxGpGOwFKkkLR9Rc q+jpGTuGlkDG7T4w6qrXXiC4RZbsNqFb1swobcuRIm3BUZKErU6PhpYwAySS SPesJeeCftFc3UpRaodyKebJhQr+NsnBLim1RFFJOycnsDkH3UScvwjP8rel cMvNT4jV9trkRDfQvOOxyA4UqQz9XL9bxOo+rHt6jVHYdtjF1XfNr6tT75dM ddjnKbSOQ20ClOmEuDln7wDOri0EHII0Wlb9hzXMgloZy2KTHa05jiFh0eF8 9xTskXW2rgQ3lJk63hJLAQj1ocX0mEqCsKJIGE9iPzV7Nj4J8hebuxRapyUM GYwZl/BaCE6nnjWInITsk7ElI2B99SOuHLsEYC2m53FclhcCKy2LHLC0tRF9Q22tOm VOlGxKhgEYIQADn7XWJb7pF8uLt2bZcfmLfdTw/cUvFuQ6pxTaFoCQBhWCFBaVFKSU9sUCKMG4aOSx9fVvaWulcQd4+V/fHXindfD/k9Rw9Ce67mcvpbotWNNc52YT/AJj/ALSsr45tzOMei6O0XmZ0vP539Kkt67cvX6kDP0n2/SlMUa+3Gt3kyJsHirlMzI0uOU2+E53TEUcONuuDf1LKdlKAAALaU5JCV13RZ fFE8MPr4rU0m+jDCUJjpaiqUVBSVJUlSlanCSk66uLbb2UVFaPZ8SeAGZkZV 2ixXjco74kqYacWpLyTsHAlvbUK9ZWdU7KII7lZqYweLWbbt/SnpYlo1eW0yhwPpxjCu/cYOPUP1qOplkj/AIbf9trUU8745ALXFu61F9fvtvjN3cPy7pPt8xDJStDZcMjsBoWiApBUUsrb SCoFTqeYsJBNqqPcMzJnFkhi3Ih9JFhyWJLoSE4YaaUFoBCcJGymwgJBPbKs HVQFhraWaaZhdKLY4cPbp0Eulb8rKbJ/Fav3xH8UqqTU2T+K1fviP4pVUmq09KUpQhK/N/j+0i1X1CWEJhpkQUvvCOOWHHFOu7LVj3UcDJPc4pSjNYQDmrb4eQo0OxQ1Nx 2mFSYLD7xbQEl1xTSdlqx7qPyT3NaOlKFqmyfxWr98R/FKqk0pQhKUpQhf/9k=

[Earl of Rochester]

We need irony smileys...

Actually, what we need are smileys that can be seen! ;)

http://www.heatworld.com/images/101462_615x10000_STD/2011/4/images/Sean_penn_x.jpg

I rest my case.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Is it just me or does he look a lot like the wrinkled hag Kirchner? :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Lonewolf_50]

Thank you for the Wilkinson link, that got me, particularly how he made contact with the fellow in the Skyhawk.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

The Fool is now in Bolivia!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/16/article-2100858-11C176EB000005DC-350_634x440.jpg

Sean "The Fool" Penn becoming best friends with Bolivian President Evo Morales as he confirms to Latin America what they knew all along - that Britain is the source of all evil on Earth!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/14/article-0-11BA1B52000005DC-490_634x543.jpg

Sean "The Fool" Penn with Argentina's Social Development Minister Alicia Kirchner. O' you didn't know? Yes, the political landscape is very closely knit down there (a bit incestuous at times in fact)!

[glad rag]

Wot's that stain on his "shirt" then?:hmm:

[althenick]

http://www.heatworld.com/images/101462_615x10000_STD/2011/4/images/Sean_penn_x.jpg

That guy out of The Cure has fair aged hasn't he?

[Milo Minderbinder]

Whats a photo of Anita Dobson doing here?

[sisemen]

I'd put this up against that third rate nobody who dresses up as a woman for a living

7HbvOEHl4Y4

And I'd also put that up against this funeral march (quite appropriate really)

yqBC3l7i7dk

[Just This Once...]

http://media.zenfs.com/en-GB/blogs/ukiemovies/sean-penn-team-america.jpg

Before the invasion..."They had... flowery meadows and rainbow skies and, and rivers made of chocolate where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles."

[Whenurhappy]

The Argies are cleverer than we thought! Whilst we are distracted by a B-List celebrity who has as much credibility as, well, I don't know...they are developing tractor beams/death rays/exploding penguins in an effort to reclaim (again) Ilas Malvinas. Nothing will be gained by having a pop at ‘bonkers’ Sean Penn. I think he developed his ‘social conscience’ when he appeared in the rather good (true) spy story ‘Falcon and the Snowman’. Poor chap, never recovered.

Now back to reality.

Putting aside any military adventurism by Argentina (and I think we can dispel that notion for a while) it is clear that Miss Piggy is attempting to garner regional, indeed global criticism of the British ‘position’ over the Falklands. The US has an avowed decolonisation policy (the rapid indeed, unseemly, exit from British colonies post-war was allegedly linked to US fiscal assistance to the beleaguered British economy). Added to that, European institutions continually press for Britain to give way on its remaining overseas territories, such as the Cyprus SBA and Gibraltar. To illustrate this, in 2007-8, PM Brown – at that time feeling stung after criticism in European fora of Colonial possessions in the Mediterranean - had suggested to the Cabinet Office handing over the SBAs in an effort to sweeten a reunification deal. Fortunately for the FCO and MOD (neither of whom were consulted) the likelihood of reunification is fantastically low and the idea died a death.

So, if Miss Piggy continues to press for ‘dialogue’, the UK is unlikely to have many friends, apart from the French who may feel similarly exposed over some of their overseas territories. One stalwart supporter of the UK in 1982 – New Zealand – has not defended the UK position because of concerns on trade impact in the region; moreover it will not allow its service personnel to visit the FI in any capacity if they are serving with UK Forces (eg exchange or LongLook).

[Anthony Supplebottom]

One theory of course is that the US have sponsored antagonists in this argument knowing full well that if other South American nations join the cause Britain might be forced to ask their longtime ally and "special friend" for assistance - in return for which the US would request a share of Falklands oil in much the same way as they required that the gold deposits held in the Bank of England be transferred to Fort Knox in return for their help during WWII.

[Grumpy106]

Not that I would normally read the Sun, but this was pointed out to me by a colleague - pretty much sums up what the Islanders feel about the has-been-that-never-was Mr penn and his interfering bull***t

The flag is mightier than the Penn | The Sun |Features (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4135473/The-flag-is-mightier-than-the-Penn.html)

[SAMXXV]

What, of course the must all remember, is that Mr Penn is entitled to his own personal views, just like you & I.

The fact that he (possibly) has millions of $ to spout forth his views is neither here nor there.

If you don't like him (I don't) then avoid paying for his films!:=

[glojo]

Any actor or actress tends to thrive on publicity... They feel any publicity is better than no publicity and to prove that point look no further than this thread.

The man is a has been actor that craves publicity, actors, journalists... :mad::mad:

[Lonewolf_50]

In related news, Hugo Chavez is trying to break the embargo/sanctions on Syria, and Hugo is on side with Kirchner regarding her Malvinas Mambo.

The nitwits are running amok, it seems.

[Jayand]

Makes me laugh, Sean Penn has a view contrary to the majority on here and suddenly he is a washed up, talentless nobody! Love or loathe his opinions but he IS hollywoodroyalty and a fine actor.

[t43562]

I hope this will not be seen as disrespectful. It`s not mine either originally:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/417298_1895984257497_1778336097_924228_2075065133_n.jpg

[Finningley Boy]

That could be Madonna in the piccy of course?! Anyway, surely Her Majesty, as the Queen, is above the law and therefore, perfectly entitled to shoot Mr Penn should he be this way anytime soon.:confused:

No doubt a few lefties loafing around pprune will find this observation silly, arrogant and Imperialist, but I don't care.:ok:

FB:)

[longer ron]

Makes me laugh, Sean Penn has a view contrary to the majority on here and suddenly he is a washed up, talentless nobody! Love or loathe his opinions but he IS hollywoodroyalty and a fine actor.

If you say so...personally I find him to be a mediocre actor turned publicity seeker or worse !!!

'Ownership' of certain land masses can certainly be a complex/emotive issue and many countries really have no moral high ground from which to preach to us.
The reasons for the Falklands issue appearing again are exactly the same as last time (trying to deflect attention from domestic troubles at home)...also the potential for Oil/Resources was already widely recognised in 1982.
I am sure that we can all think of Islands/Land masses occupied by foreign powers etc...
Have the argentinian european settlers given a timescale for handing argentina back to its original inhabitants ?
Apologies as I know other posters have probably said similar stuff already - but most modern countries are controlled by the descendants of the group which managed to militarily fight off other colonial powers !!

[RUCAWO]

Makes me laugh, Sean Penn has a view contrary to the majority on here and suddenly he is a washed up, talentless nobody! Love or loathe his opinions but he IS hollywoodroyalty and a fine actor.


Shanghai Suprise anyone? Never liked him as an actor and assaulting his wife with a baseball bat makes him total scum anyway. Supports the IRA as well ,Hollywood Royalty my arse.

[pr00ne]

Finningleyboy,

"...silly arrogant and imperialist.."?

Well, outdated, outmoded, irrelevant and anachronistic maybe....

BUT, as to the Queen being above the law, I think not.

The last Royal that thought they were above the law was Charles 1, who was arrested, charged, found guilty and beheaded.


As for Sean Penn, I recall a lovely cartoon about him many years ago, when he was starring in a rather pro IRA film, in which 2 cinema goers were seen chatting about the film as they came out. There was a news poster in the background about the uncensored full frontal nudity in the film, and the fact that Sean Penn was in it, one said to the other;
"It's true, you get to see a complete prick!"

[Finningley Boy]

pr00ne,

I'll wager the Queen's never had as much as speeding ticket but I admit it would cause a constitutional dilemma of some magnitude, if Her Majesty was caught taking aim at Mr Penn with a Rifle or something, not to mention embroiling the UK and US Governments with one hell of a diplomatic incident!:uhoh:

FB:)

[Churchills Ghost]

Jayand wrote: Makes me laugh, Sean Penn has a view contrary to the majority on here and suddenly he is a washed up, talentless nobody! Love or loathe his opinions but he IS hollywoodroyalty and a fine actor.

Oh pleease!

Ever since he came into the public domain (about the time he started dating Madonna) I have taken steps to avoid exposure to any of his efforts. He is a talentless half-wit, and that's being kind.

Holywood royalty? How about Hollywood toilet trash!

[Dengue_Dude]

but he IS hollywoodroyalty and a fine actor.

Sums up Hollywood rather nicely.

[althenick]

Its a shame That "Dead Man Walking" wasn't the real thing

[AR1]

Actor: Someone pretending to be someone or something he isn't.

[Utrinque Apparatus]

Hapless Left wing actor supporting a right wing Junta (Pronounced Cccccchhhhunta) ? Argentina's record against its own people does leave something to be desired ?

Their behaviour is typical Latin American posturing, machismo and frankly, staggering hypocrisy. The would be "colonialists" here are indeed the Argentinians, as the right of self determination of and by the Falkland Islanders is paramount. Is not the United Nations a great advocate of this principle, or are they still horse trading with scum like Mugabe ?

[500N]

I noticed an article in the DT or the Telegraph where a whole load of Argie academics, intellectuals etc wrote to the Argie pres saying lay off the Falklands and let the issue be, as well as we stuffed it up 30 years ago and everything we had done previously was lost.

Maybe a few are trying to get her to see sense !!!

[cokecan]

there's certainly a lot in the Argentine media that see straight through the fragrant Christinas antics - they know when someone is waving a big, fat worm at them in the hope that it'll divert attention from this weeks economic catstrophe or corruption scandal.

however, two issues: firstly its not the sceptical press that has control over the Argentine military, just as it wasn't the million(ish) people who marched in london in 2003 who got to decide if we invaded Iraq, and secondly the lower her ratings, and the more she's derided in the press for her transparent antics, the more desperate she'll become, and the more she'll be aware that if she were to pull it off, all her troubles would go away.

now, there may be lots of opposition and skepticism in Argentina right now, but the truth is that if she were to deliver the FI she'd be president for life. and she knows it.

[500N]

"and the more she'll be aware that if she were to pull it off, all her troubles would go away."

"but the truth is that if she were to deliver the FI she'd be president for life. and she knows it."


And she can live in fantasy land as long as she likes because it isn't going to happen or if she tries, it will end up just like last time, just might take a litle longer.

[Churchills Ghost]

Cristina Kirchner has been warned to leave Falkland Islanders to decide their own future as Argentina's president faced a backlash from a group of the South American country's leading thinkers.

So, there are some Argies capable of thinking! Hmm, interesting. Did they consider the possibility that El Presidente Kirchawalla won't take a blind bit of notice of their reasoning? Their views don't equate to votes or popularity so her ear will be deaf.

Cristina Kirchner told to leave Falkland Islanders alone, by Argentina's intellectuals - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9098633/Cristina-Kirchner-told-to-leave-Falkland-Islanders-alone-by-Argentinas-intellectuals.html)

[Victor Inox]

I am surprised Chile has not made any noises - their mainland is just as far/close to the Falklands as that of Argentina.

[A2QFI]

We have sold military equipment to Chile, they have no claim on FI and they gave UK logistic support and facilities during the last unpleasantness. They have no need or reason to make noises.

[cokecan]

as importantly, given that Argentina and Chile share a border that Argentina thinks should be a lot further west than it currently is, Chile has about as much interest in a resurgent Argentina with a recent history of successful terratorial expansion under its belt as i do in Prison love.

which is to say, not much.

added to which, most of the LA countries backed Argentina in the 1982 war (their support falling short of actual help of course - but its the thought that counts), and they still hold a grudge against Chile for following its national interests, and not those of a tin-pot dictatorship they regularly had conflicts with. so Chile stays silent on the issue in order to avoid stoking up old fights which won't do its political inflence in MERCOSUR , and therefore its economy, any good at all.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

SAS ring of steel protects William: Falklands guard as tensions rise ahead of anniversary


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/26/article-2106916-118D77AB000005DC-569_468x555.jpg

A team of Special Forces troops is providing a ‘ring of steel’ around Prince William in the Falklands amid mounting tensions with Argentina over the islands.At least 20 servicemen from the Special Air Service and Special Boat Service are on the South Atlantic archipelago to assess – and counter – any threat of Argentine action.One of their prime roles is to identify any threat posed to the Duke of Cambridge, whose deployment at the time of the 30th anniversary of the Falklands War has caused outrage in Buenos Aires.

Intelligence analysts say the biggest danger to William, whose uncle Prince Andrew was a helicopter pilot during the 1982 conflict, is likely to come from an individual or small group.Special Forces operatives carried out extensive reconnaissance of the islands before William arrived.

SAS ring of steel protects William: Falklands guard as tensions rise ahead of anniversary | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106916/SAS-ring-steel-protects-William-Falklands-guard-tensions-rise-ahead-anniversary.html)

[Whenurhappy]

I'm sure this is part of a sophisticated IO campaign. After all the SAS is clearly the biggest regiment in the British Army....

[Courtney Mil]

If you haven't seen it:

BBC News - Could Britain still defend the Falklands? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17157373)

[Heathrow Harry]

I see in this weeks "economist" that they've stopped using Argie Govt figures on their economy as Mrs K & friends are leaning on the independent authority and individuals to keep published inflation numbers low

Inflation is running wild - we've been here before

The Falklands is just a distraction for failing Argentinian Govts

[Chris_H81]

Bombers from Ascension - backed by refuelling planes - could destroy Mt Pleasant air base if it fell into Argentine hands. Once Argentine defences had been nullified, special forces could be dropped onto the islands.

Without wishing to sound flippant - really!?

[LBIA]

Well it looks like the Argie's are taking things further again. As 2x Cruise ships belonging to Carnival Group "The Adonia and the Star Princess" have just been blocked from docking into the port at Tierra Del Fuego due to them visiting the Falklands.

Both ships have been forced to sail onto Chile instead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17184955[

[Courtney Mil]

Without wishing to sound flippant - really!?

I know you weren't being flippant, Chris, but looking at it carefully, I think we could. Maybe the question is, "Is that how we would want to do it?"

[cokecan]

unless there's been some significant change in Tornado or Typhoons capabilities, surely this faces the same problem that the proposed Buccaneer strike in 1982 had - they can't stay in the air long enough to fly from Assension, fire Storm Shadow ALCM's at MPA, and fly back to Assension.

TLAM's are the only strike option available once MPA is lost/disabled. unless anyone fancies taking Ocean and a deck full of AH-64's down there to fight it out with Skyhawks and Mirage III's...

[Finningley Boy]

Cokecan,

If the Powers that be get this right, Tiffies and Tonkas will be operating from the Falkland Islands themselves in order to see off Argentinian Forces. However, if we get to that stage in preparation, I should imagine that they'll be no such attempt by Argentina to re-take the Islands. This may mean maintaining a heavy military air and land presence for an indefinite period. If we get to the stage where we are attempting to regain the Islands, then we'll face a near insurmountable predicament.:8

FB:)

[cokecan]

FB,

''If the Powers that be get this right...''

you see my concern?

[Milo Minderbinder]

So assuming the Argies DO attack successfully, all we could do would be to lob missiles at them to try and shut down the airbases and decapitate the government.

So how many TLAMs, and how many launch platforms will that take? And how many of each do we have?
It doesn't add up does it? Its all very well sending one sub down there, but the maths don't make sense

[Ken Scott]

Oil may be what the current dispute is about - according to some sources, a compromise whereby Britain allows the profits to be split 50-50 is likely to be considered.

Why on earth should we allow them anything? It would only legitimise their claim.

[Navaleye]

Agreed, give them nothing. alao stopping two cruise ships visiting some grubby run down hole will only hurt them not. Its like someone saying that the scheduled call at Casablanca has been cancelled. Yay! another sea day.

[Courtney Mil]

Yeah, good point. But I would say this - without compromising our position there (which we all should consider when expressing our views). We have the tankers, Command and Control and (most importantly) the attack assets to do it, if we had to. Admittedly we would have to scale back on other ops. Which we would. Don't think for a moment that this hasn't been considered.

But that, of course isn't Plan A. That is still the best option and is still a strong hand.

[Edit: These posts seem to be getting jumbled up and moved around. This doesn't really belong here. In fact, this was posted in response to someone elses post with the link that Mr B's posted below. Wierd.]

[HTB]

There's a neat summary on the BBC News website:

BBC News - Could Britain still defend the Falklands? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17157373)

Mister B

[cokecan]

it may be neat, but a good wedge of it is wrong.

in the article, Micheal Clarke, Director of RUSI, talks about a capability to stage strike aircraft out of Assension and use them to attack the FI in the event of a successfull Argentine Invasion.

would any ppruners care to guess/invent which currently serving, weapons carrying RAF platorm has the capability to fly from Assension to the FI, do its Deed of Dasterdly Death, and fly back to Assension?

how long does it take to fly to the FI and back - and how long can a Typhoon or Tornado keep its engines lubricated?

[Jumpjim]

I'm sure 2 Para are keeping a VERY close eye on the goings on.... :ok:

[bobward]

Now we know why, evertime VTST starts running out of cash, some mysterious benefactor coughs up to dosh .....:8

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Argentina continues its harassment: Falklands dispute: Argentina 'urges UK import ban' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17200528)

[Ken Scott]

It's rather ironic that Ms Kirchener denies the Islanders their right to self determination on the grounds that they settled there by force fairly recently when most Argentinians did the same in 'their' country at around the same time or even afterwards. And yet she can't see the hypocrisy in her situation.

The UK should stop giving financial aid to Argentina immediately until they cease this harassment.

[Courtney Mil]

I don't know why we would be giving aid to them anyway!

[Churchills Ghost]

Up until recently I thought that the Argentinian government had some common sense. This, clearly, is not the case!

Sanctions with Britain will only hurt them and yes, if we are giving aid then this should have stopped in 1982 and should never have resumed.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qUPtoyCDLXM/T04WzRoJRsI/AAAAAAAAIJ8/if1OvubQtiY/s136/WC%2520s.png

[HTB]

This extract is from the Daily Telegraph on-line, under the "comment" tab, with the big byline:

Hit Argentina where it hurts – in the wallet

Despite the Falklands sabre-rattling, British aid to Buenos Aires continues to flow.

Did you know that your taxes are supporting loans going to Argentina? As President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner continues to make waves over the sovereignty of the Falklands, the British Government continues to vote through billions of pounds in international aid to her country, primarily through the World Bank and the EU. According to a poll by ComRes, of those few British adults who are aware of such expenditure, barely 6 per cent support it.

Barack Obama’s administration certainly isn’t in favour of such action. It has started voting against loans to Argentina from international financial institutions, and is looking for allies in its tough stance. Britain should be first in line…

…the ease with which Argentina has flouted its obligations encourages its government to think it is able to behave however it chooses. But if Britain were to take action and stand up to Argentina financially – by, for example, joining the Obama administration in voting against World Bank loans for the country – it would send a strong message that its G20 partners are no longer willing to overlook irresponsible behaviour. You never know, it might even stop the sabre-rattling over the Falklands as well.

Nancy Soderberg was a senior US diplomat, and is co-chair of the American Task Force Argentina

That's the top and tail of it; there's plenty more illustrating the Argentine government's caballero aproch to world finance. Perhaps we should get alongside the USA's Irish president - Barry O'bama - to give 'em a financial slap (and don't forget, "it was the Sun wot won it!").:E

Mister B

[Grumpy106]

So now Roger Waters of Pink Floyd jumps on the bandwagon, stating that the "Malvninas should be Argentinian". Something to do with the fact that he is currently touring Argentina perhaps. Good to see that both he and Dave Gilmour, whose son thought the Cenotaph was a climbing frame, can be relied upon to fly the flag for Britain. Stupid old drug-addled hippy.

[alemaobaiano]

I see that Morrisey, he of the utterly depressing lyrics and irritating nasal whine, has jumped aboard the bandwagon telling an audience in Cordoba that "the Falklands belong to Argentina, and please don't blame the British people because we know that they do". Muppet!!!

What is it with superannuated celebrities?

I presume he will make the same claims the next time he performs in Stanley or Aldershot.

TTFN

[Ali Qadoo]

I think I may have a solution to this one.....

From what I can gather, Argentina is desperate to own a windswept lump of rock, miles from nowhere, devoid of civilisation and with nothing to do other than spot sheep (yes I did say "spot").

Said lump of rock needs to have its own airfield, and maybe a smaller one thrown in........ so in return for abandoning their claim on the Falklands, let's offer them Anglesey! It'll save the taxpayer the cost of maintaining a garrison 8,000 miles from the UK and the even higher cost of subsidising the armpit of the universe. ;)

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ali:

Wait... We'll loose claim to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch (Yes, I cut and pasted it... :O ).

[Buster Hyman]

I think I may have a solution to this one.....

From what I can gather, Argentina is desperate to own a windswept lump of rock, miles from nowhere, devoid of civilisation and with nothing to do other than spot sheep (yes I did say "spot").

Said lump of rock needs to have its own airfield, and maybe a smaller one thrown in........ so in return for abandoning their claim on the Falklands, let's offer them New Zealand! It'll save the taxpayer the cost of maintaining an interest 11,638 miles from the UK and the even higher cost of subsidising the armpit of the universe. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gifFixed....... :E

[Samuel]

Hmm...BH...a flight of whimsy there because you can't offer something over which you have no influence,and bugger all subsidy. Didn't you Perfidious Albion lot already ditch New Zealand?:rolleyes:

[500N]

In the not too distant future, New Zealand will only consist of the land and a few Maori's and politicians, the rest will be living in Australia.:O

[Buster Hyman]

Hmm...BH...a flight of whumsy there because you can't offer something over which you have no influence,and bugger all subsidy. Didn't you Perfidious Albion lot already dutch New Zealand?:rolleyes:Fuxed....... :E

;);)

[dat581]

In the not too distant future, New Zealand will only consist of the land and a few Maori's and politicians, the rest will be living in Australia.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

You forgot the sheep...:}

[500N]

"You forgot the sheep...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif"

They'll have taken them with them to Australia with all their other creature comforts that go with them - gum boots, velcro gloves.

After all, do you expect Aussie ladies to sleep with them after they've been with the sheep :O

[500N]

I see another entertainer has joined the Sean Penn band wagon.

Outspoken British rocker Morrissey waded into the debate over the Falkland Islands during a concert in Argentina.

The former Smiths star performed a gig in Cordoba and he used the opportunity to address the ongoing issues over the disputed British-held region, insisting the Atlantic Ocean archipelago should belong to Argentina.

During the show, Morrissey addressed the islands by their Argentinian name, the Malvinas, and told the crowd: "You know of course the Malvinas Islands, everybody knows they belong to Argentina so please do not blame the British people, we know the islands belong to you".

The star's comments were met with loud cheers from the crowd and he then launched into a rendition of The Smiths' Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get What I Want.

Political arguments over the islands have been re-ignited in recent weeks ahead of the anniversary of the 1982 war, when British troops saw off an invasion of the Falklands by Argentinian forces.

Morrissey's comments come just days after Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the British government of "ridiculous colonialism" by hanging onto the islands, while Hollywood actor Sean Penn has also backed Argentina.

Read more: Morrissey wades into Falklands debate (http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/celebrity/morrissey-wades-into-falklands-debate-20120304-1uaqn.html#ixzz1o9U9EdcO)

[Ewan Whosearmy]

We keep hearing from politicians that the Falklanders want to remain British, but when are they going to actually be given the voice to say it for themselves?

There would be no finer repost to Penn, Morrissey and Waters than for the Falklanders themselves to invite the three "stars" to the Islands so that they can thank them in person for their clueless interference.

[Courtney Mil]

With you Ewan. Let's take that a bit further. Three "stars":

Penn - socialist, activist, but impressive in that he now knows where South America is. Declared supporter of Iran, protested against the Iraq war, even though he knew nothing about it. Jumps on contentious issues for publicity and, let's face it, cash.

Morrissey - outspoken racist and anti-violence who turned to 'gangsta', took up boxing and hung out with a skinhead, called Jake. Developed a homoerotic obsession with violent morons and started wearing 'bling'.

Waters - caused the downfall of the world's greatest ever band and then tried to sue them when they carried on playing their own songs. Another musician who has repeatedly jumped on numerous political bandwagons. He wrote some great songs, but now has become a late-middle-aged meddler. He even wrote an album about it:O

Nobody gave them a voice in modern politics. Who cares what they have to say?

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, here's a thing. Waters has a website. And one of the pages invites us all to post pictures of fallen loved ones. Fallen in WAR. I have a lot of friends that fell in 1982. I wonder how many rememberances we need to post there before he gets the message?

Roger Waters (http://www.rogerwaters.com/fallen.php)

Of course, one would want to make it clear that posts are in support of those that fell and the cause for which they fell, not his arbitrary pacifist, publicity-seeking rant.

"Fallen Loved Ones’ is a request, from me, reaching out to ask you to provide a photograph and personal details of a ‘Loved One’ lost in war. Your ‘Loved One’s’ pictures and details would be included, along with those of my father Eric, in my up coming show THE WALL, as an act of remembrance. The ‘Fallen Loved One’ does not have to have been a soldier. Civilian deaths are equally, if not more, harrowing.

I make this request to you in light of my belief that many of these tragic losses of life are avoidable. I feel empathy with the families of all the victims and anger at ‘THE POWERS THAT BE’, who are responsible, in equal measure. Please join me in honouring our dead and protesting their loss.

Roger Waters "

Let's see you show these in your show, Roger...

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/temp/FALKLANDS.jpg

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/temp/falklands-2.jpg

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/temp/falklands_forever_british.jpg

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/temp/falk-penn.jpg

:eek:

[500N]

Ewan
That is a very good point. It would be nice to see what they say splashed across the front page occasionally.


Courtney
Excellent.:ok:


I wish Roger Waters would stick to just writing music / songs and performing, something I think he is actually good at even though my estimation of him has gone down. I also didn't hear Roger Waters saying anything about the Falkalnds in 1982 when
The Wall was being sold in the millions.

[Courtney Mil]

Hear, hear.

[Utrinque Apparatus]

Morrissey is still trying to find that elusive fourth chord for his "tunes". Boring, funereal, monotonous tw@t with delusions of eloquence. The fact he's made millions just shows how dumbed down the pop industry is. He should stick to writing and sing.... sorry, just writing, dross for cash

[TURIN]

Water, Morrissey, Penn.

Like the music/films, ignore the rhetoric.

Nothing to see here, move along....

[SilsoeSid]

We keep hearing from politicians that the Falklanders want to remain British, but when are they going to actually be given the voice to say it for themselves?

There would be no finer repost to Penn, Morrissey and Waters than for the Falklanders themselves to invite the three "stars" to the Islands so that they can thank them in person for their clueless interference.

Pride of Britain: Falkland Islanders stage 4x4 convoy to tell Sean Penn where to stick his views
The Falkland Islands put on a show of strength against Argentine aggression and outspoken left-wing Hollywood actor Sean Penn - with a mile-long convoy of 4x4s.
Dozens of Union Flag-waving Falklanders snaked their way out of the capital Stanley yesterday afternoon in a patriotic blur of red, white and blue.
The procession, which looked at times like a summer carnival parade, is unlikely to scare Argentina into not launching an attack on the dispute archipelago.
It is also doubtful it will force Penn, who has consistently backed Argentina in recent days, to keep his mouth shut.
But it does act as a message from the 3,000 islanders who, amidst increasing tensions between Britain and Argentina, remain keen to stay under London's control.

Pride of Britain: Falkland Islanders stage 4x4 convoy to tell Sean Penn where to stick his views (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2102552/Pride-Britain-Falkland-Islanders-stage-4x4-convoy-tell-Sean-Penn-stick-views.html)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/17/article-2102552-11C762B0000005DC-237_634x392.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/17/article-2102552-11C75F16000005DC-939_634x422.jpg


And in all the pictures in the article you will notice the flag being flown the correct way!:ok:

[AR1]

Haven't been able to play a Mozza tune since his collapse during 'This Charming Man' in Swindon. - The opening song. Buggered off to hospital we're told, miraculous recovery and a day later he's playing somewhere else.
Someone mention LMF?

Perhaps he should follow some of his own advice From his classic 'Ouija Board'
The table is rumbling, the glass is moving (No I was not pushing that time!)
It spells S-T-E-V-E-N P-U-S-H O-F-F

[Archimedes]

I wish Roger Waters would stick to just writing music / songs and performing, something I think he is actually good at even though my estimation of him has gone down. I also didn't hear Roger Waters saying anything about the Falkalnds in 1982 when The Wall was being sold in the millions.

You didn't buy The Final Cut, then? That was Waters' rant about the Falklands (and other matters Maggie-related). Indeed, I suspect that were he still with us, Rick Wright might be tempted to suggest that Mrs T's decision to follow Admiral Leach's advice led not only to the removal of a malign dictatorship, but also brought about the collapse of General Galtieri's regime...

IIRC, David Gilmour (who has some equally odd views about Op Corporate, being both against it and in favour of it because of his inability to allow his pacifism to trump his views on the importance of self-determination for the islanders) was so irritated with the album being a rant about Corporate that it proved the straw which broke the camel's back and led to the band imploding (Gilmour refused to have his name in the credits and Waters sacked Rick Wright from the band).

Waters has some decidedly odd views about world affairs, in no small part influenced by his interpretation of his father's life: Eric Waters was a pacifist and conscientious objector, who drove ambulances in the Blitz, before deciding as a result of his experiences that being a CO in a fight against Hitler was morally unacceptable, leading him to the Army, the Anzio beaches and his death when young Roger was just months old (and to 'When the Tigers Broke Free' and in no small part to The Wall itself). Waters fils was chairman of Cambridge CND when he was 15/16 or so, and has, I'd suggest, always been likely to have held views such as this about Dependent Territories, etc.

Partly because of that, and partly because he has produced some rather decent music, I'm willing to sigh very deeply, wish that he stuck to what he's damn good at, and to vaguely tolerate his ill-informed ramblings as being at least possessed of some well meaning intent in their origins, no matter how silly I might find them.

As opposed to tolerating the views of the odious, wife-beating publicity-seeking Mr Penn and that odious, depressing, publicity seeking :mad: Mr Morrissey for a nanosecond, since that pair strike me as the archytypal 'look at me! I have something to say' sort of character who used to last about five seconds before attitude reajudstment occurred at the hands of teacher/in the playground of my rather robust primary school.

[Colonal Mustard]

I had the fortune of visiting the islands a few weeks ago (no i`m not a Times Journo), although i had limited time down there i took the chance to visit as many of the graves in memory of the brave lads who sacrificed themselves to allow the islanders to remain British.

The three "individuals" have the right to say what they want to whom they want (the right to freedom of speech and all that), however just a few minutes in the presence of heroes buried on the island (and those whose graves are the sea) bring home why the islands will stay British.

I took the moment to pull out the obligatory "brasso" and gently cleansed what i could, although only 9 y.o when the F.I war took place i still remember key events...Sheffield being hit, HMS Coventry on fire...and the now famous Brian Hanrahan quote from the deck of HMS Hermes.

To stand on the spot where H . Jones was killed and then to stand in what remains of the Argentinian trench where the shot is believed to have come from will bring a lump to any man`s throat.

To read the ages on the headstones in San Carlos cemetery(19/21/28 etc) and then the 2 para nominal roll at Goose Green made me realise just how much the islands mean not only to the islanders but also to Britain.

To see the islanders living life to the max (as best as they can with at least an hours drive to the nearest pub) shows their sacrifice has given the islanders hope.

And i was fortunate that it was the summertime so was extremely idyllic but i can imagine how hostile it must be when i could see the trees parallel to the ground at right angles..

Hopefully the words that the argies spout are merely hollow, however i for one want them to remain British for as long as i shall live ... and i dont live on the island.

CM

[Courtney Mil]

Eureka,

I'm a life-long Floyd fan and I agree with what you say there. Thank you for some very insightful comments. But I am far less forgiving of Waters. Went off after the demise of PF.


Colonal, Sir.

An excellent post. Thank you for sharing your recent experience.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Pink Floyd are public schoolboy muso wankathon cretins that produced boring music.

Can't really comment on Sean Penn, other than Madonna was quite tasty when he was banging her.

[Courtney Mil]

Why always so angry, PP? :cool:

[Buster Hyman]

Yes, a Floyd fan here as well and, to be honest, I was not a Roger Waters fan initially, but I've come round to respect his right to an opinion & his pacifist views.

Having said that, he's using his right to "free speech" in such a way that it could lead to a more confrontational stance from Argentina (Not saying he'll be the one to influence their policy) and possibly embolden their resolve. This could, sadly, lead to casualties on both sides even if it doesn't come to a military conflict.

Fine. Have your views Roger, but for pity's sake, think of the consequences for those who are directly affected by this issue!

[Courtney Mil]

think of the consequences for those who are directly affected by this issue!

He is. Thinking of his publicity and his bank account!

[500N]

PP

"Pink Floyd are public schoolboy muso wankathon cretins that produced boring music."

Yep, spot on, and from memory (since it was a long time ago), not only the Public school I went to but all the others we visited when paying against them in Rugby or Althletics AND if you don't mind me saying, every grammar school as well. It wasn't just confined to Public Schools.

I suppose by your reasoning you would also say that the Sex Pistols, The Clash et al of that era were confined to Grammar Schools and Kings Road ?
.

[SilsoeSid]

Nice one Colonal. :ok:

If there's any doubt why we should defend the Islands, here's one I took earlier.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/falklandscemetry.jpg

[Basil]

Falklands: Morrissey's band wear 'We Hate William and Kate' T-shirts in Argentina - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/9126635/Falklands-Morrisseys-band-wear-We-Hate-William-and-Kate-T-shirts-in-Argentina.html)

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02160/kate_2160350b.jpg

Just in case anyone is thinking of it, I would not accord him the distinction of a round to the head. He is, after all, only a wandering minstrel.


p.s. I wonder if Penn, Morrissey & Waters will notice the few who recognise them turning their backs.

[500N]

That's pathetic.
They can't come up with a reasoned argument to support their cause
so they attack two individuals instead of the Gov't.

[Navy_Adversary]

Probably better if they had worn "We hate HMS Conqueror" T shirts.

[LowNSlow]

The two guys on the tosser's left don't look to comfy with those silly shirts......

[OutlawPete]

Morrissey....isnt he that muppet that used to dance in his music videos with half a tree hanging out his ar$e?

[Courtney Mil]

I would call that treason. It's disgusting and he should be boycotted if he ever dares return to Britain.

[glojo]

:ok::ok: I might call it 'good' business... These idiots are only interested in themselves and making money.. When they go on these tours is it to sell their product to those that pay to hear them or see them perform?. I am guessing if they demanded that the Falklands remain British then there audience figures might not compare to the hail the emperor, hail the Malivinarse :ok:(Fruedian slip) type approach.

Hopefully we will remember what they have done, what they have said when it comes to making decisions about what shows to watch or what music to buy?

[Ken Scott]

Of course the fear has to be that such overt public statements might embolden Mrs Kirchner to act, leading to the deaths of servicemen on both sides. An unintended consequence of a left wing pacifist attempting to boost ticket sales?

[Finningley Boy]

Probably better if they had worn "We hate HMS Conqueror" T shirts.

This is the first thought that struck me? I suppose they did it to avoid internal friction with the Boss. After all, you wouldn't want to be in their position then wind up being sacked for not doing as your told, even in an anti-Imperialist Equality for all outfit of the kind I imagine Morrissey's to be!:ok:

FB:)

[Landroger]

The two guys on the tosser's left don't look to comfy with those silly shirts......

It seems to me that apart from Le Grand Muppet, none of them really look as though they are convinced and, given a choice, they wouldn't be doing it.

They are truly pathetic and I would certainly have walked out while making a fuss.

Roger.

[sitigeltfel]

Chiu Yiu Nam - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/9129584/Chiu-Yiu-Nam.html)

Brave, modest man.

RIP.