View Full Version : Understanding English as used by non-native speakers of English
In 2008 I posed a few questions in the "Engineers & Technicians" forum regarding any problems experienced by flight crew and engineers during arrival and push back etc. At that time I was writing a Line Maintenance Communication course in China. In thinking about it, I should have of course asked the same question in this forum (and the "Flt/Gnd Ops, Crew Despatch" forum as well). For the complete question, if anyone is interested, please search under "Dahai".
It is now time to modify and hopefully improve on what was written.
The course is used to help to improve the English used by those receiving and despatching your aircraft. It is not a course related to technical matters. It does not attempt to teach how to do something, that is for people with different skills than mine. It is designed so that the person on the other end of the ground headset has a better opportunity to understand the flight crew, and in turn be able to express themselves in a better manner.
Approaching the problem from a slightly different angle, I would appreciate any comments on how difficult it is to understand the spoken and written English as used in foreign stations by non-native Line Maintenance English speakers. Is the main problem in understanding their pronunciation of numbers, colours, location, short sentences, what they have written in the aircraft log etc? How difficult has it been for you to get your message across?
If anyone could further assist with some examples, be it in understanding "standard expressions" or the "non-standard" problems, I would greatly appreciate it.
I expect in most cases, a problem experienced in China in handling native English speakers and crews speaking English as a second language, is possibly similar to a problem experienced in other countries.
Again, I would appreciate any pertinent comments. I have also posted this question in the "Flt/Gnd Ops, Crew Despatch" forum this in the flight crew forum, for their perspective.
Best wishes
JohnMcGhie
8th Jan 2011, 04:27
Last time I was in Xiamen I was impressed: everyone spoke very good English (except the taxi-drivers, of course, but that's the same in Sydney or New York...)
Seriously: Two things that you can mention that will help speakers whose native language is one of the Asian languages:
1) In English, half the meaning is carried in the END of the words. Take care to pronounce the ends of English words, or you may change the meaning completely.
2) Make sure the name of what you are talking about, and what you want to happen, are both in your sentence. English is just as likely as Chinese to leave the subject, object, or verb out: but if you do it, there's a risk you will reverse the meaning.
An example: "We back Spring Break". Since I know the speaker well, I knew she meant "Chunqing and Yunzhu will both go to our family's homes in E Zhou for the Spring Break". But someone who didn't know Chunqing well could not get that meaning from the words sent (in a text message).
English speakers need to be careful of the Asian "Yes". It means "I have heard you", it does NOT mean "I agree with you" or "I will do as you ask".
Asian speakers need to know that English speakers consider it more important to be right than polite. If an English speaker asks if something is possible, "No." is just as good an answer as "Yes." Please do not say "maybe" if you really mean "No", that causes endless pain on both sides. English speakers need to be aware of the "ignored question".
If you ask a question and it appears to have been ignored, that often means the speaker is trying to avoid giving offence by saying "no", but that "no" is the only possible answer they could give. Try re-angling your question so the answer would be positive: "Can I get Jet A1 in WuLuMuQi?" -- Silence -- "Can you tell me who knows about fuel availability in WuLuMuQi?" "My boss has the details, sometimes only RP4 is available!"
It is also worth noting that "more words does not help". If you use the exactly correct English terms for what you want, they can look it up in the dictionery. If they misu7nderstand and you repeat your question using lots more simpler words, you have only made their problem a hundred times worse!
It often helps to write it down. Many Chinese read English much better than they can listen to it.
Respect is the key... An English speaker demanding "Exactly what I paid for, at the exact minute I want it" is going to have an unhappy time in China. Someone asking "if you have time to help me with the polite way to ask for the correct forms to get some fuel..." will enjoy their visit a great deal!
Best I can do...
GlueBall
8th Jan 2011, 04:49
It is designed so that the person on the other end of the ground headset has a better opportunity to understand the flight crew,
For starters, cover the basic 200+ standard aviation vocabulary and terms, like:
"OK to disconnect ground power"
"Is the tug connected?"
"Gear Pins Removed?"
"Doors Closed?"
"Clear for hydraulics ON?"
"Brakes ON"
"Brakes OFF"
"Clear to push"
"Face east/west/south/north"
"Clear to start engines?"
etc . . .
Is the main problem in understanding their pronunciation of numbers, colours, location, short sentences, what they have written in the aircraft log etc? How difficult has it been for you to get your message across?
If you ask this question, it means you have very little experience in learning a new language, and very little (or none) knowledge in chinese language.
Try to learn a new language, and you will have all the answers to your questions.
How is your chinese? It would be a good start to learn it to a professional level if you live in China, escpecially if your are interested in writting aviation documents to be used in China.
Personaly I couldn't imagine myself leaving in the US, France or China without respectively learning english, french, or chinese.
Load Toad
8th Jan 2011, 06:35
This is just general stuff as I have no connection to the airline industry...
If you ask a question give an option - it allows people to avoid having to use the dreaded 'no':
Do you want tea? (Wrong way)
Do you want tea or not? (Right way)
Keep things simple - native English speakers can make things very complicated just by being naturally elaborate - it's better to be blunt even if to your English ears it sounds rude.
Check any answer by asking the same question differently.
Learning the language is a good idea but it's not a simple case of knowing words - with Chinese it is as important, if not more so to be able to translate the culture.
Secondly not all Chinese speak good Putonghua so even learning Mandarin might not help. That's why you'll see Chinese from different parts of China confirming things by writing the characters (even 'air sketching' on the palm of their hands) or you can hear them in Chinese saying things like 'The shan that means mountain or the shan that means...?'
So when it comes to listening to Chinese speaking in English the most common problem I have is making sure in their attempts to be polite or to avoid showing they don't know or understand they are not specific enough (unless their money is involved); so try to structure things so that ambiguity is avoided.
John, Glueball and Kag thank you for your replies. Since arriving in China in 2004, I have experienced exactly what John is referring to. Working in an aircraft maintenance company, I lead a team of Chinese teachers teaching English. In the class I am teaching at the moment, we have completed, among ogther areas, work on word stress and intonation, unfortunately many of the maintenance staff's English is not the best, having majored in different areas. There is also the cultural thing that many (certainly not all) believe their boss will tell them, in Chinese, what they need to know and do. Therefore they do not need to learn English, and also as promotions are a long way off, hence no need for ambition.
I have found numbers and colours to be a problem area, along with words such as near, next to, across from, north, south etc.
Line maint crews I have spoken to indicate they have problems when the flight crew ask for places to see and things to do. This is a difficult one to overcome, as it is one of vocabulary and many Chinese words don't have an English word, such as place names, addresses, some foods etc. The problem of people translating literally into English often leads to misunderstanding. In addition, the English spoken by flight crew whose native language is not English, presents it's own set of problems.
John your point on repeating the question in simple form is well taken. I have a recording between a pilot (flying in Europe I think it was) and ATC in which the message did not get across even though the pilot changed the words he was using, into a simpler sentence format and different words. I plan to utilise this in avoiding misunderstanding.
Glueball thank you for the terms. I will certainly do something with them. Over the next week I hope to be able to speak to other Line Maint crew to try to understand the problem from their side. The reason for posing the question here, was to try to understand any problems from the flight crew perspective.
For Kag, thank you for your thought. Having lived and taught in China since 2004 I have an understanding of the problems with learning and using a language. My putonghua is passible but certainly not as good as it perhaps should be. However, my specific request was aimed at what problems does the flight crew and ground crew experience in the use of "aircraft" English (as against everyday English) in handling either technical problems, be it normal or unusual occurances, or everyday expressions such as Glueball has provided.
Sorry LoadToad, your reply came as I was typing my last response. Yes you are spot on in "avoid showing they don't know or understand" and that is what I have a feeling about might happen, but without any facts I do not know. A problem or question might be posed to the Line Maint person, and not wishing to show lack of knowledge or say "NO", the answer never comes. Hence the question is not answered and then doubt or further misunderstanding occurs and around we go with another question, more confusion etc etc etc.
A problem with your suggestion of "Do you want tea or not", the answer is often "yes" or "no"... but yes or no to what part of the question?
Load Toad
8th Jan 2011, 10:11
Not really mate - as I said it'd be one of a series of questions & the response would indicate what direction the next question would go in.
I've been doing business in China for 15 years so there is a bit of method and experience behind it but it's not foolproof and as with any language or culture if someone wants to deceive you or if you are a bit off the ball you can still get shafted. I don't claim that I've never made mistakes - quite the contrary. Only recently I had a frustrating time as it turned out I had the wrong Wong and it was cousin Wong not Old Wong! How wong could I be?