Dolce Vita!!!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

As it has been expected for a long time , it happened.

SPAIN IS LOOKING FOR ATCOs. :ok::ok::ok:

could you imagine 20 000 +eurs per month for 110 hours on job. rest somewhere on the seashore. freedom,sea, hot young and blonde Swedish tourists :ok::E somewhere around Murcia.

DOLCE VITA!

If we return to real world I will,and I believe that many others, have a few questions.

what is going on?:confused:

Who is hiring?:confused:

What are T&Cs?:}

what is the attitude of local,spanish ATCOs to newcomers?

Who will conduct OJT?

How much Spanish is mandatory for starting job?

everything that wide community wants to know but affraid to ask......

[chevvron]

Fluent Spanish would e required, otherwise there would ne no ATCOs left in the UK!!
Franky I'd rather work at Plaisance - ex wife was Mauritian.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Franky I'd rather work at Plaisance

Me too, but who asks..:{

I don't think that Spanish requirements will be high.
Also i don't think that salary will be top of the.....

I may bet to next T&C:
-Salary between 3000 and 5000 eurs net,depending on station and rating/endorsment/experience
-3 to 5 years appointment
- offer valid only for EU citizenship
- No chance to choose location ,especially for twrs,accs maybe,
- No further allowances,medical,insurance
- Spanish language will be expected to speak within "reasonable time"
-Very short OJT
-BIG,I will repeat it, BIG resistance given by current ATCOs ,at many units. But nobody will ask them,you will get your license if you safe,at least.

This lead us that T&C wouldn't be so interesting,so many units will be untouched with Spanish offer.

If company increases offer that will be something interesting. It will move whole ATCO job market,and almost everyone will feel that movement. It will be movement for better.
Liberal market is key for all our current problems,in Europe at least.

If it happen like this,it will cause hard moves in other regions such as Middle east and maybe Australia.
Also International organization will be affected and finally ,soon or latter it will move the Biggest ATCOs employer FAA to change T&Cs.

But it is the only begginning of the story and we will be witnesses of situation for sure.
I just hope that it will be move for better. :ok:

[ron83]

Fluent Spanish would e requiredWell an application form is in english,which probably wouldn't be if spanish was required :E

[chevvron]

By the way, I think 'Dolce Vita' is Italian not Spanish.

[thealps]

It sure is Italian but what the heck....

S, how do you know Spain is hireing?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

By the way, I think 'Dolce Vita' is Italian not Spanish.

yes I know,but when you put Dolce Vita in Google translator from Italian to Spanish you get answer "dolce vita",that's the reason why I put Dolce Vita. everyone will catch the point.



google it. :E:E:E

I am joking,

Servicios y Estudios para la Navegación Aérea y la Seguridad Aeronáutica S.A. (http://www.senasa.es)

that is the first question.
what is going on? and
who is hiring?
:confused:

[Lon More]

otherwise there would ne no ATCOs left in the UK!!

Debatable; for the alleged salaries they could get the best!! :E

[chevvron]

Well the way I read it, they're recruiting ATC Instructors not operational ATCOs; obviously they wish to train a whole new generation then pay them less than the present staff.

[Mr. Pig]

The advert I saw was for instructors. Here's a link from the CANSO jobs site:
Jobs (http://www.canso.org/cms/showpage.aspx?f=1&id=1824&v=1)

[p_perez]

Hi!

this is allegedly the message of USCA´s president, Mr. Camilo Cela, to our fellow italian colleagues that are considering AENA´s offer to come to work to Spain:



Dear Italian ATCO.

I am Camilo Cela, president of USCA, Spanish ATCO's union. As a matter of fact, as you predict, AENA's only intention is to get rid as many Spanish ATCO's as possible. By firing a big number of us, the rest would be scared and they could destroy our profession.


The conditions offered are unknown for us, but their plans are to hire foreign ATCO's with initial good economic conditions and to get rid of them as soon as possible by hiring low cost ATCO's in the future. Therefore, your working conditions would change in two years at most (which, by the way, seems to be the contract offered).


AENA has been trying to find controllers in many countries (Portugal, Argentina, etc...) and our colleagues there have replied that nobody is going to come to Spain to subsitute Spanish ATCO's. We would be extremely grateful if you did the same, having also in mind that the working conditions and environment you would find here are hell, and change every time AENA feels like through new laws (this year we have had five changing everything: yearly hours, holidays, legal allowances, salary, etc..). Aena treats as if we were criminals, terrorists. Would you like to join a company under these circumstances?


On behalf of all the controllers I represent, we will never forget your negative reply to this offer, as we ourselves would NEVER go neither to Italy, nor anywhere else to allow any ANSP dismiss local controllers.


Feel free to send this email to all Italian ATCO's.


Thank you very much.


Camilo Cela

[SINGAPURCANAC]

unfortunately I do not agree with you and your union representative point of view.

Of course I know what are you doing,protecting your T&C, but it is not the way how it will work.

the main and crucial question is "local acceptance".i.e how local will react to expat atcos?
Predictably there will be big resistance.
But how it will be solved.


1.PRIVATISATION.-they will sell with or without tender some airports to private companies( someone mentioned SERCO...)

2. IF SERCO win any tower,believe me ,they will not have any dispute with T&C, employee relationship,who is the boss but who is worker...

3.AENA will follow private model,with the a few exemption,just enough exemption that anyone will consider AENA as the best employer.


My dear Spanish colleagues,
It will happen like this.You can't prevent it. Simple,you can't prevent it.

But you may cope with this.
-Sit at the table with your current employer ,and renegotiate T&C.
-Allow expat atcos,but at predefined number of expat atcos( let say 200 atcos)
-Agree and "produce" T&C for foreign atcos,
-Insist on "PLAN" how to solve current situation:- Salaries in next 5 years.plan for training newbies from Spain, working hours during that transition period
-Anything else that seems suitable that I didn't cover here,due to lack of "local knowledge".

As I said somewhere those days,Spain currently keeping "key element" in ATCOs position ,at least in Europe.
But not in a way how union and IFATCA, represent it.

No it is not question how much AENA will erode current T&C.
No.

The main question for this year with possible longer effect,what T&C will be offered to expat ATCOs for Spanish postings?

If T&C will be close to:
-3000 to 5000 eurs for twrs and apps
- anything between 160 and 180 working hours per month
- 3 to 5 years contract
-relocation package
-not too many question relating to your experience and knowledge
-Spanish language,is advantage not requirement
-possibility to choose airport or center
.....
Your company,or any other private company will have "thousands and thousands' application on the table.

And than what will happen?
200 hundred atcos,that is the number that currently appears as number of atcos that Spain needs yesterday, wil come form European providers.
It will make a lot space within European ANSP and other institution for a while, and it will have reflection to everyone's T&C.

Also as a side effect, many ANSP currently working on the edge with people, will reduce requirements for expat atcos entry that even more change future T&C.

Situation will be even better if you understand that those 200 for Spain will need training, others ANSP will need to increase training for their needs, but they could not release ATCOs from shift to train newbies at school,and situation will even further change.

Of course it will change to better for average European atco.

Currently we have situation.
100 mEur for all atcos.
Spain atco take 20 000 eurs per month
German atco take 10 000
Anyone else take 4000 eurs

When "Spain Transition" is near to end we will have"
-Spain atcos work for 10 000 eurs
-German atcos work for 11 000 eurs
-Anyone else will take 8 000 eurs.

Sum will be the same, distribution will be different.

best regards my Spainish friends,
:ok:

[Nock]

It's really weird, but when I read you Singapurcanac, I always have this image in mind:

http://www.henglish.co.kr/English/Reading/Disney/JungleBook/Img/image007.jpg

Should spanish ATCO accept everything (well not everything but the very destruction of their working conditions) only to make the general ATCO wages raise? And even if they were enough... how to say... stupid to follow your advice, do you really believe that the general working conditions would improve? Of course not! Haven't you heard about some workers who have accepted to diminish their salary lengthen their working hour to avoid delocalization of their company and at the end the company is delocalized and the workers have just been more exploited for a while?

"Trust in me, just in me
Shut your eyes and trust in me
You can sleep safe and sound
Knowing I am around"

Nock

[ATC Watcher]

SINGAPURCANAC :When "Spain Transition" is near to end we will have"
-Spain atcos work for 10 000 eurs
-German atcos work for 11 000 eurs
-Anyone else will take 8 000 eurs.

Sum will be the same, distribution will be different

Nice provocation mail . The game according to the CANSO "hawks" is to reduce costs of ATC to the bare minimum. Roughly 75% of the costs of ATC are Controllers salaries. Does not take much complex knowledge to determine what the salaries of the average European controller will be in 5 years time.
Ireland and Belgium will probably be next after Spain.
If you want to have a look at what the future average European ATCO T&C , look at Sweden for instance.

My advice to all, pay your morgage quickly and keep you car.


SINGAPURCANAC :From your pseudo are you a New caledonian native working in Singapore ?;)

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I haven't realized that idea of topic to blame someone.
And what is more important blaming someone will not help Spain atcos.

I will always remain option to choose. To be popular or to be effective and precise.

And my choice is to be precise as much as possible because our colleagues need help. I just tried to explain what is going on,what implication will be,and what are possible solutions.

if you or anyone else want I could be popular.
Spain atcos are the best.
their T&C must not be changed
I am going to kill anyone who wants to go Spain to work there as expat atco.
i will pay double membership fees to IFATCa,because IFATCA will change anything.

AENA management are bunch of ......
CANSO su.....

And I hope that you will as a response put hundreds of :D:D:D


But True is not like this, because,
SPAIN economy is heavily backbone by tourist industry.
20 to 30 % of GDP comes from tourism.
Is there mass tourism without efficient transportation?
NO.
how much ATM contribute to efficient air transportation?
Significantly
Does Spanish Goverment have ability to shoot down mass tourism in Spain?
No.
Do they want do it?
NO.
What they could do?
To make air transportation even more efficient
Is the ATM one of the issues.
YES.

they will pay those who are able to amke air transporetation much more efficient.
THAT'S WHAT THEY NEED.

of course it is not what our Spanish colleagues want to read but it is like this.
Face it earlier and it will be much easier,not for me,I am outside of your stories, but for you.

@Nock,
we always could discus about styles. :ok:

[belk78]

My friend if you think that we get 20k per month, let me tell you, you don´t know ****.

[japanac]

"belk78" My friend if you think that we get 20k per month, let me tell you, you don´t know ****.

Belk78, it is not important what is actual amount you receive neto per month.
I beleive SINGAPURANAC wanted just to ilustrate the situation which is not
sustainable. In general there is no logic in T&C in European ATC community and it is natural that it WILL change.

How to explain the sustainability of the following:

1. Spain has 2-3 times lower living costs compared to Benelux countries or Germany

2. Spain has 2-3 times lower air traffic levels within it's airspace compared to Benelux countries or Germany

3. Spain is in more difficult financial position compared to Benelux countries or Germany

4. AENA ATCOs have 2 times bigger salaries compared to MUAC, DFS, LVNL, Belgocontrol

The point is that some ATCOs in AENA behaved very irresponsible (as teenagers) when they just walked out of the job one day in December! This did not help to anyone and it will not help certainly in the future to any ATCO wherever they are.

With that action, those who "walked out" of the job, showed the following general (bad) image about ATCOs as a profesionalists (people):

1- ATCOs are irresponsible, not reliable people who take unpredictable actions that cause damage to many innocent people who are not involved in AENA problems at all.
2- ATCOs do not care if they derogate level of safety for our people who live more difficult lives but ATCOs, with much lover salaries fighting to raise their families
3- ATCOs are rather ready to escalate the problem but to offer possible solution
4- ATCOs ignore the fact that they have 3-4 times bigger salaries (even with bad T&C) compared to their family members, relatives, neighbours, average citizen in the country.


This action can cause the damage to ATCO profession.

I am an ATCO too, but I do not want people to start thinking about me (my personality) in this way.

[atcsstudent]

I am an ATCO too, but I do not want people to start thinking about me (my personality) in this way
Japanac, I'm sorry but you just don't know what you are talking about.
In Spain, everybody has been thinking about us for more than a year now since the government campaign started against us, calling us privileged, thieves, blackmailers, rich, that we do not work at all,.... etc etc etc, and that during more than one year, I repeat they've been saying all this about us for more than one year day after day, day after day.
Our wage was: wage for 1200 hours a year plus overtime.
We can not talk about overtime, but they cut around a 30-35% of our wage, then 3 o 4 royal decrees imposing working conditions (I think, and please tell me if I'm wrong that in UK, German, France, Italy,.. the working hours except overtime is around 1400hours yearly),and increasing the working hours to 1670.
We haven't been able to negotiate with aena, and that is a right that every employee, the union, has.
There was a general strike in Spain september the 29th, and we had to work 100% of the controllers, have we a right to strike???? I don't think so.
These are just some examples, so I tell you one thing, if you read on the newspapers everyday that you are a kind of terrorist, plus all the things I've described and a lot more, a lot of you people who critice us would have walked out for sure.
And the most important if we do not stop this they will continue with all european ATCos (in Spain there's an airline, vueling, where the pilots earn 100-1200€ monthly, do you want that for all of us???)
By the way our monthly wages range, 2700€-7500€(this if you have been working for more than 30 years)

Regards

[wickedwitch]

atcsstudent - I hate to burst your bubble but on a little island close to the uk we are contracted to work 1926 hours a year before overtime. I believe that to be fairly standard throughout the uk...

[atcsstudent]

wickedwhitch, I suppose that this is before holidays.
We work for AENA, and before holidays we work 1886 hours, but effectively worked hours are 1670. I think that you work for a private company,... I was refering to NATS, ENAV, DFS, NAV portugal,... and after holidays.
REgards.

[1985]

NATS is a private company

[japanac]

atcsstudent-
In Spain, everybody has been thinking about us for more than a year now since the government campaign started against us, calling us privileged, thieves, blackmailers, rich, that we do not work at all,.... etc etc etc, and that during more than one year, I repeat they've been saying all this about us for more than one year day after day, day after day.
These are just some examples, so I tell you one thing, if you read on the newspapers everyday that you are a kind of terrorist, plus all the things I've described and a lot more, a lot of you people who critice us would have walked out for sure.
I'm sorry but you just didn't refer to any of my questions/views.

What I said was not result of "propaganda" as you say.
I have only listed a few facts as an example and asked for explenation because I do not see logic behind it myself. And still waiting that someone gives his/her views about it:

How to explain the sustainability of the following:

1. Spain has 2-3 times lower living costs compared to Benelux countries or Germany

2. Spain has 2-3 times lower air traffic levels within it's airspace compared to Benelux countries or Germany

3. Spain is in more difficult financial position compared to Benelux countries or Germany

4. AENA ATCOs have 2 times bigger salaries compared to MUAC, DFS, LVNL, Belgocontrol


Our wage was: wage for 1200 hours a year plus overtime.
We can not talk about overtime, but they cut around a 30-35% of our wage, then 3 o 4 royal decrees imposing working conditions (I think, and please tell me if I'm wrong that in UK, German, France, Italy,.. the working hours except overtime is around 1400hours yearly),and increasing the working hours to 1670.
Since I am an ATCO myself for 15 years we could talk about working hours and overtime for ages ( rules on paper vs shift roster vs actual time worked);).


We haven't been able to negotiate with aena, and that is a right that every employee, the union, has.
There was a general strike in Spain september the 29th, and we had to work 100% of the controllers, have we a right to strike???? I don't think so.
I agree with you what you said here above,but do you agree or dissagree with my opinion about "walking out"action. Could you state what is achivement that you got with it:

The point is that some ATCOs in AENA behaved very irresponsible (as teenagers) when they just walked out of the job one day in December! This did not help to anyone and it will not help certainly in the future to any ATCO wherever they are.

With that action, those who "walked out" of the job, showed the following general (bad) image about ATCOs as a profesionalists (people):

1- ATCOs are irresponsible, not reliable people who take unpredictable actions that cause damage to many innocent people who are not involved in AENA problems at all.
2- ATCOs do not care if they derogate level of safety for our people who live more difficult lives but ATCOs, with much lover salaries fighting to raise their families
3- ATCOs are rather ready to escalate the problem but to offer possible solution
4- ATCOs ignore the fact that they have 3-4 times bigger salaries (even with bad T&C) compared to their family members, relatives, neighbours, average citizen in the country.

This action can cause the damage to ATCO profession.



And the most important if we do not stop this they will continue with all european ATCos (in Spain there's an airline, vueling, where the pilots earn 100-1200€ monthly, do you want that for all of us???)
By the way our monthly wages range, 2700€-7500€(this if you have been working for more than 30 years.
I have already said, it is not important what is actual amount you receive neto per month.
What matters are the principles and your living environment. Do they go well together , are the sustainable?


Do you want to say that 4500euros is not 3 times more than avarage salary in Spain? How much majority of the people around you receive today e.g. teacher, nurse, engeener in Airbus or Indra, GP, train driver, pilots you mentioned etc.


Do you say that economic conditions around you are the same like 5 years ago and you do not accept neccessary alterations in working conditions?

Regards,

[atcsstudent]

1. Spain has 2-3 times lower living costs compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Are you really sure? Have you ever been to Ibiza, Palma, Madrid, Sevilla, Barcelona..?
Spain has 2-3 times lower air traffic levels within it's airspace compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Not sure about that, but let me tell you, now aena creates new sectors and put the aircraft they think is safe with no safety studies at all.
Spain is in more difficult financial position compared to Benelux countries or Germany
Correct, but that doesn't give AENA the right to treat us as criminals and not let in us negotiate, in our negotiations we wanted to reduce our wages 25-30% and increase our working time about 20%, and they didn't agree, the problem is the lack of controllers (and they deny that)
AENA ATCOs have 2 times bigger salaries compared to MUAC, DFS, LVNL, Belgocontrol
No way, please tell me your net salary monthly, as I suppose you work for MUAC, DFS, LVNL,...

And please tell me your yearly working hours, as you didn't say, as I now in NATS they work 6 on 4 off, in Germany 5 on 3 off, .... and if you do that and take off the holidays you do not work more than 1450 hours for sure.

I now our salaries are good, but we have never complained about that, is the government who is putting that excuse to attack us as hard as they can, and that is the reason why I'm telling to you all.

So tell me what would have been the right solution for us let us bully and see what happens, no way, we have to fight for our rights, and do not let us squash by anyone, I'm sorry but that is what I think.

If anyone comes to Spain to work I tell you now, you will leave as soon as possible.

Regards.

[belk78]

You are right japanac, the economic situation is pretty bad so we all should work the same hours in every job and get the same money, but call this Communist Republic of Europe instead. What a load of demagogic bull****.

[BrATCO]

Japanac,
Do you want to say that 4500euros is not 3 times more than avarage salary in Spain?

Must be 3 times median salary(50% above, 50% below), not average.

Since I am an ATCO myself for 15 years we could talk about working hours and overtime for ages ( rules on paper vs shift roster vs actual time worked)http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif.
I've worked in ATC for 20 years. I won't lose your time talking too much about it : where I work (whatever happened before), since June 2010, rules on paper = roster = actual time worked.
1670 hrs per year - holidays = 1430 hrs, 100 hrs(ish) training.

Took them 12 months (september 2009- september 2010) insulting us in the press, just the way they've been doing in Spain for a year : "Overpaid", "lazy", "irresponsible", "potential mass murderers", false roster exemples, false wages, no means to answer in the press for the unions...

Seize the day ! You could be a splendid target for your national press tomorrow morning. With no advice, no real reason... except a will to lower your T&Cs.

I don't wish it for anyone, not even for my worst enemy.
Good luck ! ;)

[SINGAPURCANAC]

dear colleagues,
Level of misunderstanding here is enormous.
Both me and japanac aren't against atcos. We are atcos ,too. and we shared destiny as any other atco in Europe . All goods and beds.
so there is no sense when we are talking about "possible and future" T&C for expat atcos in Spain to blame us.

we didn't put Spain in current conditions ,nor we're hiring now.

we are just discussing possibilities. Maybe someone will take infos and make acceptable solution for her/him.

So far,answer to my question, "what is the attitude of local atcos to expat atcos " is obvious. :}:}:}:oh::ugh::mad::mad:

Now, ,salary,and other T&C issues is something that we would like to hear/read. Possible postings, and so on.

best regards,
:ok:

[atcsstudent]

"what is the attitude of local atcos to expat atcos "
Personally I wouldn't like expats to come right now, we are having great problems with our ANSP, and if you come you are helping them to continue harrasing us as much as they can. So it is not the best moment, I'm sorry.
When things calm down, and everything it's on his path, where it has to be, there will be no problem, you will be more than welcome.
Coming now is supporting AENA and the Spanish government pressure to us, saying to them "well done" (but oh don't ever do it to me). If you support them what's happening to us it will soon happen to you and I do not wish it at all.
So this is my opinion and I think most of us think the same.

- Salary, monthly, 3000-7000€, depends on posting and years on the job.
- Roster, initially 4 on 2 off (the first off is after a night shift that ends at 8am), but if you are needed your second day off, no problem, you are forced to go (or if not disciplinary measures will fall on you). I'll tell you, in July and August (both together) I only had 4 days off, so if you think this is great....
-Traffic regulations when sectors are overloaded, bufff, we do not now what regulations are now. Not operational staff neither controllers are now in charge of this so just imagine yourself.......
.....
Regards.

[belk78]

Have you read their last press release?
Dedicated to some of our italian "colleagues".

atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination (http://www.atceuc.org/)

[ATC Watcher]

Have you read their last press release?

Well it is not really a press release , more like an open letter.

But frankly I would have expected more support from ATCEUC. Tough talk before, but when one of their members is in trouble and asking for help it is a bit more difficult to find a consensus to help them it would seem.

A simple declaration from ATMPP ( federating the 4 Italian Controllers unions ) saying simple :" We support USCA and anyone of our members going to work in Spain will immediately be expelled from our Union" would have cost little and be perhaps a more effective.