Newbie looking for advice

[BigG]

Hi I've been thinking about learning to fly and obtaining a PPL for a little while now, done a bit of google research but would of course feel better speaking online to people with experience. About me (briefly), I'm 25, and a trainee physics teacher, and although financially I'm a few years away from learning to fly, I would like to do as much research as possible early on. First of all I have read the average cost of obtaining a PPL is about £5-7K, is this about right? I live in Sunderland, is there any places around the North East of England where I could learn to fly (a weblink would be great if anyone could supply me with one). Also how much extra in lessons, exams etc am I going to be looking at in order to obtain night endorsment on licence?

As well as costs roughly how long will it take me to get the PPL? As a teacher I will have weekends free, and easter/summer holidays for any bits that may be more intense.

After obtaining a PPL I may possibly look into buying my own plane light plane, and I do realise this will be costly. Roughly what is the cost of buying a cheap plane that will carry around 3 passengers? Then the running costs, how much am I looking at for fuel (either per mile or per hour?), maintenance, storage charges (as I realise 99% of time it will be stored at an airbase somewhere), insurance and any other charges I have left out?

Finally in the long run I may be interestd in becoming a part time instructor. How hard is it to do? What will it cost me? Although I'm certainly not looking at doing this as a means to make large sums of money, at the moment roughly how much would a part time PPL instructor make per hour?

Thanks in advance for your replys
Dave

[mary meagher]

Hi, Dave. I'm recommending gliding to everyone else, and don't want to leave you out! As you are in Sunderland, have a look at
www.northumbria-gliding-club.co.uk

They operate weekends and Wednesdays, I believe! and would certainly welcome your interest.

Mary

[WishesToFly]

You may also be interested in flying Microlights. Modern microlights and ultralights are very ergonomic in design, cost effective and offer a great way to gain a pilots license for less. I think that you can train in a modern CTSW aircraft for around £3500 undertaking 25 hours of flying and 25 hours of briefing. Enough to get you to a reasonable standard, plus you will be required to commit to further instruction/flying if you need more practice to be able to pass your GST (General Skills Test). So for around £5.5k you can complete a 40 hour course, you will need to past 5 theory exams for a microlight license (around £25 each) and you will need to pay for your test and a small amount of pilots supplies such as a head set & books etc.

Its a good alternative and slightly cheaper than getting the full PPL. Ultralights can be cheaper to hire and own than SSEA aircraft such as Cessna's / Pipers etc.

Hope this helps.

Alex

[magpienja]

I was also going to mention microlights....if you have not looked at modern fixed wing micros you maybe surprised.

Nick.

[fader1]

I know people who've done the whole PPL package just at weekends in a matter of a few (3 or 4) months, weather and money permitting of course!
I think you need to do an extra 5 hours dual night flying before you get the rating - better waiting til you've got your PPL in my opinion - you'll be more experienced and safety-conscious.
Research? Get the books and devour them NOW! No sense in hanging about, and you might find 'em interesting. 7 subjects in all.
Good luck!

[stevelup]

If you're looking at a full PPL in a Group A aircraft, I don't think your average cost of £5-7K is right with todays fuel prices.

Mine cost just shy of £10K (once all the incidentals had been factored in) - but I did take 57 hours. Even if I had done it in 45 hours, it would still have been over £8K.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

£10k sounds more likely.

Anything up to a couple of years is reasonable for getting a PPL in the English weather flying weekends only.

Question is, though, what do you want to do when you've got the PPL? At today's interest rates borrowing the £10k regarded as a one-off capital cost is a trivial exercise, the question is whether, if you want to keep flying, you can afford the ongoing cost, which will be rather more than the repayments on £10k added to the mortgage.

[BigG]

Thanks for the replys guys.

Firstly Mary, I had thought about gliding previously, but would be more interested in motorised gliding, can you give me any info on this?

Alex, I didn't realise a microlight licence was different from a PPL. Just had a quick nose at the cost of buying them, and looks like you can pick them up for less than £10k, and in some cases under £5k. Are they much more ecomical to run than a normal light aircraft? Roughly what kind of cost per mile/hour in fuel am I going to be looking at? Are they suitable for overseas journeys (a long way in future that, but I am curious). Do you know anywhere that I could learn, or take a trial lesson near Sunderland?

Steve I am a total novice hear, what are the different classes, what is a class A?

Fader what are the 7 subjects that I need to study (will my physics background be of any help?)?

Gertrude I plan on learning probably at the end of my 1st year as a qualified teacher, due to my workload going down then and I also a recieve a £5k golden hello from the government which will go a good way to paying for lessons. My intentions once I have a licence are to fly recreationally and possibly buy my own aircraft, which is why I am curious of running costs.

[AdamFrisch]

They blow smoke and say it takes 45hrs. It doesn't, unless you do it full time, in one go and have above average talent for it. If you do it over a year or more, it will take 60-70hrs, minimum. Not trying to dissuade you - in fact the more pilots joining the ranks the better - but just so you take the flight school spiel with a grain of salt.

So, what you waiting for - go for it!;)

[WishesToFly]

Do all your lessons in one go if you can, however don't pay for your lessons up front however much the discount. I'd say you are better doing as many lessons as close to each other as physically possible (and weather permitting). Someone said to me 'add 50 to 100%' of the total cost of your flying to get a relaistic idea of how much it could cost you. I believe that totally. What could take someone 40 hours could take considerably longer (depending on your natural ability and skill).....

But good luck on your venture, still have a think about microlights, they are great fun. They look much better than they used to such as the CTSW ultralight below:

http://www.skyexpo.or.kr/data/gallery/ctsw2.jpg

[MR.X99]

Yes agree,microlight first. You,ll meet some real down to earth folk,who will get you in the air for a couple of thousand.Better value for money.

Fly Safe.

[Shunter]

You'll notice the original poster states he wishes to carry "3 passengers". If that's a fixed criteria microlights are out the window.

Whilst a full PPL will undoubtably cost more it's the only sensible way to do things if you want to push yourself further after qualifying. Under current regs if you want to fly at night, fly in cloud, fly abroad without hassle etc you need a full PPL and a certified aircraft. Give careful thought to what you want to do with your license, research the privileges the various licenses and their associated aircraft confer and make your decision based on that.

Incidentally, I didn't do my PPL full time, I did it over 5 months with as much continuity as possible and passed with <45hrs. I don't regard myself as being particularly above average in terms of ability. I used to book 4 lessons every weekend (early morning and late afternoon both days); usually I'd get 1 or 2, sometimes all of them. By the sounds of it you're young enough to pick it up quickly and from an academic perspective you'd have no problem with the exams, in fact you'd probably love the principles of flight stuff which most folks have a hard time with.

[BigG]

Shunter, although I said I want to be able to carry 3 passengers, it's not essential. However I am more concerned about ratings, can you get night ratings & cloud travel in a microlight?

Would it be possible to start with a summer intesive (the 6 weeks hols) and then as I'm guessing this isn't long enough to get a licence, continue part time at weekends after?

By the way as a newbie on here all my posts are being proof read by mods before they appear, so taking me ages to reply when I just want answers :ugh:

[Justiciar]

BigG

The whole licensing regime is in a state of flux at present due to proposed new European regulations, so it is difficult to say what the landscape will look like in a couple of years.

At the moment, a cost effective option may be to travel to the US and spend three or four weeks doing your JAA PPL. Whether this route will still be open in a couple of years is debatable. The training costs are less and better weather may mean you can use your summer holiday for a clear run at the PPL. Generally, being able to do the training in a block as opposed to weekends is likely to mean you take fewer hours to qualify, so there is an additional cost saving over UK training as well as the generally cheaper costs of flying in the US (I have not done this personally, though many on this forum have).

As regards buying an aircraft, that is a big step which you should not contemplate until you have got your licence and a few hours under your belt. If you had lots of cash, which you don't, then it might just be worth considering buying an aircraft out right and using it to train on as that would slash your hourly rate (not a route I would take personally, though).

Many people think that they want a four seat aircraft and most find that they then do most of their flying either solo or with only one passenger. Those extra two seats then cost them an awful lot in terms of maintenance (it would be an aircraft on a costly C of A as opposed to a cheaper Permit to Fly), insurance, hangerage (bigger airframe may cost more to hanger) and fuel. You therefore should qualify and then see how much of your time you will really need that third seat. You could well find it cheaper to buy a two seater (or join a small group) and rent a bigger aircraft for the odd occasions you need the extra seating.

I have no idea what you would earn as a "part time" instructor and that would be very much dictated by the market at the time. You need minimum hours to do a Flying Instructor rating. Currently, you also need a Commercial Licence to be paid for instructing, though that will change if the current Euro proposals on licensing go through. Qualification as a FI is likely to cost as much as your PPL, so you have to be very sure that you want to do that.

Microlights are a sensible suggestion. The rules on what aircraft can be used for training are more relaxed and therefore training costs less, but you cannot then use your licence to fly non microlight aircraft. Operating costs of a microlight are of course significantly less than a C of A aircraft as well. It is I believe easier to become an instructor on microlights, which may be another consideration for you.

On the ratings point, you cannot add a night qualification to a microlight licence, but remember that night flying is not for the faint hearted (only one engine!) and you are limited to airfields with suitable facilities. The UK IMC rating is currently not available either unless you have a PPL(A) but this may well disappear anyway in the next couple of years (thanks to Europe). Even now, you need a C of A aircraft to use the IMCR and this must have minimum levels of equipment to be legal to fly IFR and of course suitably equipped and licensed airfields are needed in order to do instrument approaches.

[stevelup]

Steve I am a total novice hear, what are the different classes, what is a class A?

It used to be a legal definition, now it's just a shorthand way of saying 'Single Engine Piston aircraft that isn't a Microlight'.

Your suggested requirements (carrying more than one passenger and wanting to do the Night Qualification and IMC Rating) do really rule out microlights unfortunately.

[Wibblemonster]

I would disagree with that, personally I have been learning at Northumbria Flying school for the past 4 years, have 41hrs TT & am nearly ready for my skills test, I just need to finish 2 more ground exams, do a bit of revision then take the GFT. Should be done within the 45hrs.

I don't dissagree that it is easier to do in a block, but learning around other life commitments is perfectly do-able & for me, has made the flying that bit more special.

Give the guys at: Northumbria Flying School - Home (http://northumbria-flying-school.co.uk/) a shout, they are a very friendly bunch. :ok:

[WishesToFly]

Just to add, you can easily complete a 25-40 hour intensive in a microlight in 6 weeks (weather permitting). In fact I know a course nearby me that claims they can teach you to fly to a solo level on a 7 day intensive course flying up to 25 hours in a microlight. So it must be possible!

[mary meagher]

Big G, suggest motor gliders are much less expensive to qualify - however, once again, usually 2 seats only.

Seems to me that you need the basics first, before dreaming about night flying, taking 3 pax, etc.

Two ways to go about getting the basics. First, my original suggestion - at least go and talk to them!

Second, take your family to Orlando and check out the flying schools at Orlando Executive Airport when you get there.

Two birds with one stone. You can cover a lot of ground in a weeks course over there. Better weather, as well.

Mary

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Hi Dave,

As many have suggested above, it will be worth your while to visit some local flying schools (including microlight schools and gliding clubs) to get a general feel for what is required. Feel free to ask specific questions on here. We all have our opinions, coloured by our personal experiences. You will need to filter the replies you get.

I would suggest that you look up the local branch (called a Strut) of the Light Aircraft Association. Although this will not help you directly learning to fly, there is a whole lot of information and support available. The LAA is involved with home built and vintage aircraft, with the main aim being making flying as inexpensive as possible. You may well get invitations to go flying with Strut members, which will give you a feel for that side of aviation.
LAA North East Strut details (http://http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/Maps/strutMap1.html?postcode=SR1&distance=50&strutsToDisplay=50&newSearch=Find+a+Strut)

To cover a few points you raised. Physics along with maths are probably the most useful academic disciplines in aviation. Your Ground Exams are:


Air Law – Rote learning of facts. No one likes it and most schools insist on you doing it before first solo, as an incentive to get it out of the way.
Human Performance and Limitations – Physiology with a bit of physics and human biology thrown in.
Navigation and Radio Aids – Mostly applied maths (triangle of velocities & interpolation), along with magnetism. The radio aids part is operation rather than how the kit works.
Meteorology – Almost pure physics, your training will certainly help you with this one.
Aircraft & Principles of Flight – Again this is engineering with maths and physics
Flight Planing & Performance – More physics, with added maths.
Communications and VHF RT – Learning the jargon. It sounds strange until you get used to it.


At the end of your first post you ask about instructing. To be paid for this you will need a Commercial Pilot’s Licence (CPL), as well as an Assistant Flight Instructor (AFI) rating. This is going to cost you a lot of money, with minimal earning potential at the end of it. If you buy a copy of one of the UK flying magazines, or like most of us impoverished pilots, read them at the WHS Lending Library, you will get a feel for the (minimum) costs of CPL and AFI courses. Beware, there is a requirement to have completed a number of hours of post-PPL flying before commencing these courses.

Some people use the instructor route to build the necessary 1,500 flight hours for the Airline Transport Pilot’s Licence (ATPL). There are some very mixed views about this, but suffice to say it isn’t the path to untold riches. Some of us have acquired the Class Rating Instructor (CRI) rating, which allows us to do some types of instructing, but unless we also have the CPL, we don’t get paid. Most of us do it to put something back in to aviation.

Flying is great fun. Good luck with your researches.

Richard W.

[James micro]

They offer intensive courses on 3 axis microlights

[Flying Lawyer]

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/443337-free-gliding-courses.html

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/436611-free-ppl-courses.html


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