How is it on BA Mixed Fleet, are you enjoying it?

[Betty girl]

Hi Mixed Fleeters,
I don't know if any of you read pprune but I was wondering if you are enjoying working on Mixed Fleet.

I realise it is early days but is it as you expected it to be?

I hear rumors about how tired some of you are with only one day off after some long haul flights. Is this the norm or is this unusual?

I hear that the new Haneda route is going to be a Mixed Fleet route. Are you pleased about that?

I personally am worried for you all because that is a long flight and would be very hard if you had just done a Las Vegus and only had one day off after before being required to do the Haneda. Are my concerns unwarranted or are any of you worried too?

Anyway just wanted to hear from the horses mouth and not galley fm on all your veiws about if Mixed Fleet is all you had hoped it would be.

Thanks.

[welshboy1982]

I am enjoying MF so far, the atmosphere on board is far better than it ever was when I was a temp on WorldWide. I actually feel like I belong onboard and don't have to justify myself to the rest of the crew for my existence.

Yes there are a few teething issues regarding several things, but hopefully we can work those out, like you say Betty, it is early days. I'm looking forward to Haneda, and I am surprised that we have gained so many routes as quickly as we have, but I for one am certainly not looking forward to doing a Vegas followed by Haneda, especially with only one day off inbetween, it'll be a killer!

[Betty girl]

Thanks for your reply Welshboy, I am glad you are enjoying it.

Yes, I think it was bad the way some of you temps were treated by some crew, some of them did not have the sense to see that we have often used temps in the past and it had nothing to do with the dispute, other than BA not wanting to put you all on the, then, current contract.

Anyway I hope it is good for you and you get speedy promotion and all your teething problems get sorted.

Good luck.

[Flap33]

I would have thought it would be highly unlikely that this combination would be rostered given the days off entitlement after a longhaul trip, there are plenty of shorthaul routes on/coming to MF.

I know these combinations are flown by Flight Crew but that is primarily because they CHOOSE to, it's not the company being cruel!

WB1982, glad that you are back in BA and enjoying your new position.

[Betty girl]

Flaps33,
That's the whole point, on mixed fleet they just get the legal minimum and bid for their days off and trips.

It is possible that if your bid was quite general or you made a mess of it you could easily end up with that combination. You could also of course specifically bid for days off after each long haul flight but the bid system being used by them is the same as the one used by us on E/F and it works by trying to give everyone 60% satisfaction and therefore what you ask for is not always what you get.

Already some Mixed Fleet crew have had a run of 3 Las Vegas/Denver flights in a row with only one day off in between each.

That's why I asked the question because I wanted to hear facts from actual M/F crew and separate it from galley fm.

[Betty girl]

Just wanted to check it out with one of you, is it true that you don't necessarily get a day off after a NBO trip.

I have read somewhere that a M/F crew member said that she had been rostered the following, NBO trip, BUD there and back, NBO trip, I day off, Bud there and back, Las Vegus trip, 2 days off.

So no days off after the NBO! Is this right and is something being said about this because you will all be so tired after this kind of rostering.

Also one crew member has said he has been rostered 96 block hours in one month and is already worrying about what will happen when he reaches 900 hours before a 12 month period has elapsed. Is this normal rostering for M/F?

[welshboy1982]

I'm afraid to say it's all true re. the above! We are literally working to the bare minimum rest. Luckily I don't have a Nairobi on my roster, but I do know of others who have it like you mentioned Betty. We can only hope that crew are feeding back there rosters to their managers to look at because, as you say, this kind of rostering really can't go on long term. I have 143 hours rostered in January, so I am very concerned about reaching 900 hours pretty quickly!!!! I love being on Mixed Fleet, but something does need to be done about the rostering as i know a lot of crew are pretty unhappy with it.

[randomair]

Out of interest flight crew have a limit of 100 flying hours per 28 days.
Is this not the same for cabin crew? If it is the case, 143 flying hours is a bit excessive during a 31 day period... anyone have any idea?

[oh-oh]

JPM's have an absolute limit of 100 flying hours in a 28 day period.

I believe the Mixed Fleet contract allows:
180 duty hours in February
192 duty hours in all other Months

[StudentInDebt]

The limitation of 100 hours in 28 days applies to Flight Crew only and is an ANO limitation. Cabin Crew hours are limited by the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations in the first instance which has absolute limits of 2000 hours in 12 months not exceeding 900 hours flight time. The current scheme duty hour limit for a BA Cabin Crew member over a 4 week period is an average of 190 hours and an absolute maximum of 210 hours so this roster is well within what's allowed. Mixed Fleet may have different limits as shown above.

That's not to say that it is a sustainable roster in the long-term, I've been told that about 4 or 5 years ago BA Cabin Crew employed at Gatwick had a change to their rostering designed to get more out of them. It did but at the expense of many crew reaching the 900 hour limit, being unable to fly and consequently crew shortages resulted. Much of BA's Gatwick program had to be sub-chartered to several operators (Astraeus and Monarch spring to mind) for several months, the problem was compounded by crew resigning as they couldn't afford to live on the Gatwick basic wage.

[GS-Alpha]

Welshboy1982

May I ask how many days off you have on your Jan roster?

[Betty girl]

Thanks Welshboy.

[PC767]

Student in debt, you correctly refer to the start of single fleet at gatwick.

The difference this time is that new fleeters can be used for ground duties when 900 hours is achieved. And at worst they can be stood down with no pay. The 900 hours is calculated on a rolling basis so a couple of weeks in the terminal or at home unpaid should reduce the average.

[welshboy1982]

I had 9 days off rostered, although I've ended up with 10 days off now after picking a trip with an extra day off from standby.

PC767 - we will not be working in the terminals. This is not what is meant by ground duties. Ground duties refers to training, sep and such like. Not working in a terminal. I'm sure if we were grounded for whatever reason, we probably could do, in exactly the same way that the crew on WW and EF do right now.

[elldee]

I am really enjoying myself. Never flown before so have nothing to compare it to, mind.
Did my first LH flight to LAS…. Knocked my socks off how tired I was once I’d landed… then we got stuck for 5 nights – so I got some sleep and had great fun! :ok:
I like SH best – I originally applied for EF so knew I would. So far all the crew I have met have been very supportive and good fun.
My roster this month is ok… I have a busy week with NBO, PRG, BUD and LAS with no days off in-between so will be very tired. I have 10 days off this month and only 2 days of sby. Also similar to the example you used. But I have emailed my manager to see what they can do. I have finally worked out how to bid so will have some nice PRG and BUD night stops in Feb with any luck : )
As a general rule we are having 2 days after LAS, DEN but none after NBO - Which I can’t seem to get my head around. Time will tell I suppose?


Anyway, happy New Year and safe flying!

[PC767]

Welshboy, I don't know if I hope you are correct or not. It would seem that at present 900hrs is going to be achieved before a rolling 12 months is achieved. Not working in the terminals would leave BA with the worst option - that being to stand you down with no pay.

Have BA provided a written interpretation of Sect 5 of the Mixed Fleet contract, sub headed, Job title, duties and flexibility. In particular the comment '...it is an express condition of your employment that you agree to undertake any other duties or roles that the company may reasonably assign to you from time to time on either a temporary or permanent basis. These may include a ground role at the company....'

[TopBunk]

I think the second paragraph of section 11 is very illuminating.

Basically it says that if the 900 block flying hour limit is increased by regulatory change, then that is automatically incorporated into your contract.

Currently, changes are being proposed that would increase to 900 to a significantly higher number yet tbd.

With other groups within BA these are contractural and would require renegotiation, BA has circumvented that with MF.

[welshboy1982]

Clauses such as this have been around for years, just no one has bothered to scrutinise them until now.... My initial temporary contract in 2008 stated -

"Your duties include all work normally undertaken in this role and other duties that the Company may require you to do"

"You may be posted to another fleet from time to time"

"You may be posted to any location worldwide on a temporary or permanent basis..."

"If you fail to succesfully complete any training... the company may terminate your employment"

[StudentInDebt]

As a general rule we are having 2 days after LAS, DEN but none after NBO - Which I can’t seem to get my head around. Time will tell I suppose? Do LAS and DEN appear at the end of your blocks of work and NBO at the beginning? Given your example line of work they are using your unacclimatised on the 2 European trips but as you probably don't need the max FDP and are getting 3 local nights rest in a timezone 2 hours wide (assuming you get 8 hours between 10pm and 8am) you are acclimatised for the LAS giving you the max FDP possible. You could equally have a LAS or DEN at the beginning of a block and work a similar pattern.

Whilst this looks great on paper and is probably termed "efficient" rostering I imagine once the fatigue reports start rolling into the CAA it will be changed fairly quickly. From the CAA publication The Avoidance Of Fatigue In Aircrews
Other factors to be considered when planning duty periods include:
a) the allocation of work patterns which avoid such undesirable practices as
alternating day/night duties, the positioning of crew so that a serious disruption of
established sleep/work patterns occur, or scheduling rest periods of between 18
and 30 hours especially after long flights crossing many time zones;

[PC767]

Welshboy,

My contract did not, it was more specific about work and flexibility and noted that changed and pratices were to be via the world wide scheduling agreement and collective bargaining.

(That, partially, was what Unite took BA to court about during the imposition dispute. Was the agreement incorporated into my contract. The answer wasn't straight forward but did conclude that onboard crew numbers were not incorporated.)

So, have BA clarified the terms of Sec 5 or have you decided that BA will not ask you to work in the terminal because the terms are just the usual small print that doesn't matter? What will happen to you if 900 hours is achieved sooner rather than later, in your opinion?

[Matt101]

PC767,

I don't mean this to sound scathing towards Cabin Crew but what use would they be in terminals outside of times of disruption? There's little they could do without the correct training...

At LGW when we nearly all maxed out hours after 10/11 months we were assigned days of 900 hrs GWK (Ground work). Nobody actually did any ground work despite my contract alluding to the fact that BA could require me to should they so wish, this I believe is because I wouldn't have had the first clue what to do other than pointing people in the right direction (and even then I think in 3 years I spent about 10 mins in the North Terminal departures hall).

I don't mean to sound argumentative but I think in the long term BA will see it more in their interest to provide sustainable rosters to MF, but initially Man Power planning (always BA's weakest point) and scheduling are testing new ground - even SFG's MOA has more restrictions than the new MF. The same thing happened at LGW; year 1 was a bit of a disaster (even the then head of IFS admitted so) but they learned from it and maxing out hours is a rare occurrence now I believe.

[Ancient Observer]

Juan,
Your point about fatigue is very well made. I have had a number of interactions with the CAA medics, and they are serious people.
Whilst they have a sense of humour, getting the words right is important.

[welshboy1982]

Matt101 - I agree with you, I ( and probably most other crew ) would be completely useless in the terminal.... I could tell customers where WHSMiths and Boots is, but as for anything else...

PC767 - Having asked several managers, CSM's etc, they have all said we will not be working in the terminals.

[PC767]

Matt101. Iaccept your point, however, SFG do not have a stand down clause in their contracts, which would be a concern.

Welshboy1982. No further debate then. I hope you are correct to take BA on trust, although the word of a CSM is meaningless, they know no more than you or I. It is further up the chain where the answer will lie. Best wishes.

[TightSlot]

I note that the same names that pontificate so regularly on the BA Industrial Relations Thread are now taking over this one.

The title of this thread indicates that it is directed at those actually flying as Cabin Crew on Mixed Fleet. If you do not fit into this category, please consider whether this is the most appropriate place for you to be posting.

[Betty girl]

Thanks so much to elldee and Welshboy for explaining your rosters.

I think as time goes by BA will tinker with things to make them more sustainable over the longer period because when you add the Haneda trip into the boiling pot, I do think some of you might feel true fatigue if you have just done something like a Las Vegas and not had much rest after and keep repeating similar patterns.

However am friends with one of your Mixed Fleet Managers and she told me that she thought you would all adjust the way you bid, giving more care to the days off you request and she thought that, that would sort out the problems, we shall see.

Anyway wish you all well and I hope for your sakes that you enjoy your time with BA. I still love my job despite all this unrest at the moment and truly hope things will settle down and we can all co-exist together as one big happy team. Anyway in my dreams!!

[Smell the Coffee]

I'm also on MF

Good points - most crew generally very friendly and supportive, from the CSM down. Many with prior experience as SCCMs and trainers and an asset to the company.

Routes - some interesting routes coming online, not all nightstops.

Change - fairly easy to feedback problems and get them resolved reasonably quickly

Promotion - hopefully at a more reasonable pace than on existing fleets.

Bad points / points I hope will change

Pay - my pay for a full month's flying in November was on the low side - just under £1000. This doesn't really pay my bills and if this doesn't change I will have to leave.

Rostering - unrealistic. I have been rostered LHR-LAS-LHR (1 night) followed by ONE day off, immediately followed by another LHR-LAS-LHR. Next month I have an NBO (1 night) immediately followed by a shorthaul sector. I am shattered most of the time!

Positions - "Future Talent Crew" FTCs - sit in BA Purser positions and carry out most of the BA Purser duties (including completion of assessments on other crew) yet are told they not in a different grade and as such will not be paid any differently (excepting a paltry £100/month extra which means little).

I am optimistic that these things can be changed but I think it's important BA realise that if the pay is not upped, people will leave - rapidly. In fact, I have flown with two crew that have already left after 2 months - one for Emirates, the other for Virgin.

Let's hope the Company responsds constructively to our concerns.

[welshboy1982]

Bettygirl - I think bidding might be part of the problem. Too many people give different opinions of what to bid for, how to bid, and obviously nothing is guaranteed through Carmen. But i can't bid specifically to say "Give me 2 days off after every longhaul trip".

[Betty girl]

Welshboy,
I agree, I told her that as far as I was aware the bidding was the same as E/F and it was not that easy to bid to get days off after a particular trip, it's just not that kind of a system!
On E/F we only do short haul so the impact of only one day off after a block of seven days work is not as bad, yes we would be very tired but we don't have time changes to deal with like you.
I think at LGW, on the single fleet, they trigger 2 days off after each long haul trip because initially they had the same problem when SFG started but I just can't understand why BA have not learnt from their experience down there.

Thanks Smell the coffee.
I think you are right the money is a problem when trying to work and live in the most expensive part of the UK in particular. I don't think BA will have a problem attracting crew to the job but retaining crew at these low levels is hard.
I said to this Mixed Fleet Manager that I thought the salary was very low and she said 'but they will be taking home 18k when you add in their 2.40 ph' but I reminded her that you have to eat and drink using quite a bit of that 2.40 allowance so it can't really be included like that!!

Anyway hopefully it will improve for you all. I can see you are all very keen and I truly hope the job ends up being all that you want it to be.

[Finals19]

Welshboy/Bettygirl/Elldee...

I am just trying to get my head around current MF rostering structures...can you confirm (given what has been said) that the something like the following is possible?:

M: LHR-NBO
T:
W: NB0-LHR
T: LHR-BUD-LHR
F: LHR-PRG-LHR
S: LHR-LAS
S:
M: LAS-LHR

I am a bit unclear about the NBO trip, as when I use to do them (prev worked on LH, left company but had an offer to work back on MF) they were night sectors both ways. I am not sure if you can squeeze min rest in between?

Thanks for the clarification.

[Betty girl]

Well the sector out to NBO is a day sector and the one home from NBO starts on the Tuesday evening and lands back Wed morning ( using your example) so you would be getting one local night rest (wed) but no day off before the Bud.
I don't think you could squeeze in two short haul as in your example because you have to have one day off after 7.
So if you removed one of the short haul day return trips from it, it could be a M/F roster but I don't know how common this kind of rostering would be.

[elldee]

I will post my roster up until the endof this month for clarification. I am currently on days off and annual leave which amount to 9 clear days off.

TU 11 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
WE 12 JAN LHR-LAS
FR 14 JAN LAS-LHR
SA 15 JAN OFF DUTY
SU 16 JAN OFF DUTY
MO 17 JAN LHR-BUD-LHR
TU 18 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
WE 19 JAN LHR-NBO
TH 20 JAN NBO-LHR
SA 22 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
SU 23 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
MO 24 JAN OFF DUTY
TU 25 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
WE 26 JAN STANDBY AT HOME
TH 27 JAN STANDBY AT HOME
FR 28 JAN OFF DUTY
SA 29 JAN OFF DUTY
SU 30 JAN LHR-NBO
MO 31 JAN NBO-LHR

Hope this is of some help or gives you more of an insight. Im pretty sure this is a typical MF roster...

[Betty girl]

Thanks Elldee,
The 17th through to the 23rd will be a hard slog for you, seven days continuous work including short haul either side of that Narobi and then only one day off after the whole phase!!!!.

Good luck.
I think they will have to do something to change that kind of rostering because that will be a killer.

[ottergirl]

elldee
MO 17 JAN LHR-BUD-LHR
TU 18 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
WE 19 JAN LHR-NBO
TH 20 JAN NBO-LHR
SA 22 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
SU 23 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR

That's a tough week! Enjoy your 9 days leave and get plenty of rest. Like the others have said, on SFG and the old mid-fleet changes were made after a few months to make the rostering more user-friendly. Good luck and do talk to us at work, most of us are very friendly! We need to break down this 'them and us' barrier so we can make mixed fleet a better place to be.
OG

[elldee]

Yes, I must say I was suprised when I saw that on the roster.

But you know what, im putting this in perspective (rightly or wrongly). I had the whole of christmas and new year off. One flight then this break im on now. Its not all bad, is it! Yes I will be shattered by the end of that week, but I cant do anything about it now.

Will be interesting to see how Febs roster looks, now I have learnt how to bid correctly! :O

*edited for spelling! Doh!

[Betty girl]

I agree Ottergirl, I have been making a point of talking to Mixed Fleet crew that I recognise but am also happy to chat to others too.

I think more and more level headed crew are starting to think like us and realise that it is not, at all, the Mixed Fleet crew who are to blame for any of this mess, they are really the victims of all of this and we should all do our bit to make them welcome and help them through this.

[elldee]

I must admit I had my guard up when first going into the CRC - but im always willing to chat - to anyone from any fleet.

I just feel my hat box is a bit of a people repellent sometimes...

[windytoo]

Mixed Fleet, welcome to the real world. Most other companies have had rosters like this for many years. That it comes as such a shock to some mainline crews, shows just how far out of touch with reality the cabin crew agreements make BA compared to their competitors, and why these changes need to be made to make BA sustainable in the present economic climate.

[Betty girl]

I know what you mean Elldee. It does go both ways I think.

I think because you might feel guarded and also the desks are so prominant some of you are also very defensive towards us which is understandable.

I walked past the other day and saw a CSM that I know and she completely blanked me and turned her head away. I was a little shocked but decided to actually go up to her and have a chat anyway and she was fine. She told me she was enjoying being a CSM but that it felt like she never stopped working.

Anyway hopefully with time it will all sort itself out. Lets just hope there isn't another strike!!!!

[Betty girl]

Windytoo, We will have to disagree on that.

Do you actually fly and have you also ever done a long haul trip followed directly with shorthaul the next day. I don't actually believe that, that is normal for MOST airlines.

[elldee]

Totally agree that it works both ways.

[Betty girl]

Elldee, the other thing that you probably need to take in to account is that all of us tend to only talk to those that we know. I could walk past a group of WW crew and not really even notice them too because I would not likely know them. So when you are new in BA it does and always has seemed quite a daunting environment.

Eurofleet is about the most friendly group because we know each other a little bit more but even now after 11 years I can do a briefing and not have flown with any of my crew before. When I was on WW I often went into briefings and did not know one of the fifteen crew and that was also after 11 years on that fleet.

M/F will become very friendly because it is relatively small at the momment which will be nice for you.

[windytoo]

Hi Betty girl, yes I do fly and have done for over 15 years. Times have changed dramatically during that period. Layovers have become shorter and shorter, to the present day where most, but not all, are min rest bullets. 16 hour duty days are the norm and the only rest area is a barbox in the back galley. The only agreement that we have is that we will not do a bullet east followed by a bullet west, but LH into SH and vica-versa is absolutely standard.( The beauty of being rated on 3 types.) Yes I also work for a well known UK airline and our new joiners can only get temp. contracts and are paid considerably less than 18K. Welcome to the real world of 2011. Regards.

[Betty girl]

Well as long as your happy, I'm happy for you Windy.

Good luck with your well known UK airline.

[Finals19]

Wow guys - those roster sure are fun packed aren't they?? Verging on brutal perhaps!!

I have to say all credit to you guys for taking the bull by the horns and embracing the change. I can only echo what others have said - with the previous WW agreement, WW crew would be going apoplectic over such a run of trips.

I have nasty feeling that despite your positive approach, the powers that be in scheduling and crew management are going be pretty obstinate about any flexing of rosters to allow people proper rest. With Willie in the driving seat, its all about max utilisation for min cost. Your only recourse would be crew fatigue.

I vaguely recall Mid Fleet rostering, but it was markedly more in favour of the crew in comparison.

Oh and ignore those crew who give you the cold shoulder - crew by definition (some not all) can be incredibly fickle. Just keep on smiling! :)

[Betty girl]

Windy,

Just pondering over your post no.43.

Are you sure you normally work 16 hour duty days!!

The absolute legal limit for UK cabin crew is 15 hours and sometimes less depending on your start time and number of sectors (unless a bunk or captains discretion is used) so for you to suggest that 16 hours is the norm in your airline with nothing but a bar box to sit on seems maybe a little bit of an exaggeration, maybe! I would hate to think that your well known uk airline uses captains discretion on such a regular basis. Poor you.

I think it is really important to be truly factual about what you write because lots of people that don't fly read these posts and tend to believe everything they read.

[elldee]

Oh yes, I can totally appreciate what you are saying.
I dont expect randoms to come and start a conversation with me in Costa. I just mean little things like smiles being exchanged in the queue...then the hat box is spotted and its wiped pretty quickly... but thats ok, I understand there are mixed feelings for mixed fleet and thats fine. ;)

Most flights I have had so far, I have known at least one crew member which is nice. Makes it less daunting when you are new to flying having a familiar face in the breifing room! I was in the hold pool for Euro Fleet - so will be bidding for SH flights!!

Positive approach is fine for this month, like I said I have put into perspective my good fortune in having the chrismas period off and these days as well. If Februarys roster is similar, I will endeavor to get it rectified.

Thanks to you all for your advise and support!

[binsleepen]

Betty Girl,

Many non legacy UK airlines do day return trips to places like Tenerife, Egypt, Cyprus and Israel that involve over 8-9 hours flying plus the turnround. I don't see this as being much different to a one way to Kenya. At least in Nairobi you get a nice hotel and a beer by the pool with the crew rather than home to the kids to do it all again the next day.

The guys and girls we have work very hard and are constantly in the cabin doing services as they need to hit their selling targets to supplement their low basic wage.

This is the reality with many carriers.

Regards

[Betty girl]

elledee,
So sad, that.

You shouldn't have to but I would keep the hat box in my cabin bag and then no one would know. Totally outrageous though that people are so fickle. They are all just so wound up about all these changes and can't see the wood for the trees.

Anyway we both now, know each others names so we will be able to say hello to each other.

Thanks for all the interesting info you have provided it's good to know the facts and not just rumours.

[Betty girl]

Just because I work for BA dose not mean that I have not worked for a charter airline in the past and done long duty days such as Tenerife etc.

At BA we also do Athens and back, Istanbul and back, Moscow and back, and Tel Avive and back has been known in the past. That does not however mean that it is the norm to do 16 hour duty days as suggested by Windy for any uk airline.

I think we are comparing apples and pears here.

I know you all work very hard and I think you will find that quite often BA crew do too, contrary to common belief here.

Clamouring for everyone to work to the lowest common denominator seems a bit strange to me but if it makes you all feel better, please feel free.

[windytoo]

Well Betty, I concede that the use of the word, normal, might have been slightly incorrect. Maybe I should have used the words, not unusual. I really wish your 15 hour max duty period was correct though! Try this, perfectly legal from CAA's point of view,
6 hours of "free" standby at home followed by SSH and back to different base and then 5 hour coach ride. Total duty (not FTL) of 25 hours!! However to be fair, that would be exceptional, thank god. But also to be honest, it takes place on a regular basis without the preceeding standby, so only 19 hours then!
Barbox only applicable to the middle 13 hours of course!
Many years ago our agreements were much closer to yours, but unfortunately times have changed and to stay in business we have had to change too.
I would say the difference between MF and our company is that MF get 2K more plus a more "permanentish" contract. I suspect that like us however, when the economy improves in the UK, BA will struggle to keep hold of the good ones unless they improve the Ts and Cs.

[tomkins]

elledee
how are those people who commute from up north coping with rosters like that.With your roster for this month you have to come in ten times in three weeks.Such a hard work agenda would surely make commuting a non starter?

[Betty girl]

Windy, the basic for M/F is £11,000 and they have to live close to Heathrow to boot.
Then on top of that they get 2.40 per hour flight pay, no other allowances or O/T at all.
18K is what BA say they will achieve and this includes the flight pay of 2.40 which, some of which, they will need to spend on food and drink etc. while away especially in places like Hanenda(Tokyo).

It's early days as yet but so far I have not met one M/F crew member that has taken home more that £1000.

Hope that helps clarify things for you.

The CAA scheme which all airlines in the UK use (unless they have agreed something more restrictive as their scheme with the CAA) can be seen in your manual. You will find I am sure a page giving you the maximum duty hours depending on the start time and no of sectors that you can operate without captains discretion or the use of a bunk. I am sure if you look, 15 hours is the largest number you will see. Positioning after is a separate matter and the same chapter in your manual will also tell you about that.

Hope that helps.

[binsleepen]

BG,

I really wasn't trying to comment on how hard those at BA work (You will note that I didn't mention BA at all) but on that small amount of huffing and puffing about having to work the day after coming back from NBO and enquiring how it was different to working any other long flying day followed by another.

NBO is only 3 hours ahead of the UK and at least you have the benefits of a nice hotel.

Regards

[Smell the Coffee]

binsleepen

Fair enough, but if that is the way Mixed Fleet is going (and based on discussions with MF managers, I doubt it), then I would vote with my feet and leave.

I didn't join BA to fly for 5+ hours, see a bit of foreign tarmac then fly straight back whilst desperately trying to sell tobacco and booze between meals. To me, there's no point - you could do the same on a train ... part of the appeal of BA is the ability to work in different cabins, promotion outside of cabin services and - yes - the opportunity to visit foreign countries.

There is no appeal whastoever in doing "bullets" for me ...

[Betty girl]

Sorry Binsleepin,
The flight out is a day flight, followed by a night flight home after being up all day, followed by another s/h day duty, which will come probably after a bad nights sleep due to the early morning nap after the NBO return sector..

I am sure it is achievable but couple that with Las Vegas with 1 day off, then Hanenda the opposite direction and I think that these crew will feel shattered.

Just my opinion and at no time have I ever said that I don't think other airlines work hard because as an industry I think we all work harder than the general public realise.

[windytoo]

Hey Betty, I'm on your side! I don't think it is sustainable in the future as I said. We have had many people apply to MF from our company, some successful, some not. However the reason they are interested is that the money, conditions and perceived job security is better than they have now. Only time will tell.
By the way have you heard of level 2 dispensation from the CAA? From my manual in front of me,this allows the company to add another 30 to max flight duty time. Also duty period finishes at chocks on time, so 1 hour must always be added to duty period. Therefore max duty period can be 16 hours 30 minutes before any positioning.

[elldee]

tomkins

In all honesty I cant answer that. I know people who DO commute from the north and far south who are managing.
I am fortunate as I live in Buckinghamshire, 20 mintues away!

[Betty girl]

Windy,
I think the duty includes the clear of 30 mins but who really cares about all this detail, just thought your original post sounded a bit strange but I understand what you meant.

Yes, I think I know what airline you work for because I have heard quite a few are joining BA Mixed Fleet.

Hope they all enjoy it.

Safe flying. BG.

[Smell the Coffee]

Regarding Mixed Fleet pay for non-CSMs (i.e. cabin crew), I guess everyone has a slightly different view on what constitutes reasonable take-home pay after all deductions.

Perhaps £1,000 per month is not unreasonable. This is just my personal situation, but being single and renting about 30 minutes' drive from LHR, £1,000 leaves me with almost nothing left to live on after bill payments. I don't class myself as a big spender at all ... I tend to buy my toiletries and clothes from cheap shops in the US as thats all I can afford at the moment. I have no mortgage and I borrow my father's car to get to work (I pay bills on the car as he does not currently use it.)

Hopefully with a promotion to CSM, things will become much better as the payrise is significant and puts me on a much more realistic footing, financially.

However, I was led to believe that Mixed Fleet pay would be set at market rate + 10%. I'm not sure what BA has used as the market rate, or what additional payments or commission thay have included in this calculation, but I'm still not sure that that is what £1,000 represents. I know others at places like easyJet and Thomas Cook that currently take home several hundred pounds more than I do.

Having said that, I only have the month of November to go by, and I'm hopeful that my take-home next month might be better; other than the pay which does worry me, and the rostering I have to say I really enjoy flying on Mixed Fleet.

[Betty girl]

Smell the coffee,
I notice that you used to be crew on E/F and guess that you moved to M/F as it will now be the only way to get promotion.

I also guess you are on the Future Talent scheme.

Are you overall pleased with your move or have you some regrets?

Is it hard being F/T crew or are you enjoying it?

[Smell the Coffee]

Betty Girl,

I've been on both LHR fleets, left flying then came back onto MF ... I love coming to work, I love interacting with pax and I enjoy working with our crew, as well as meeting my friends on other fleets from time to time.

I personally don't enjoy working in the office day in, day out and have always loved flying - therefore I see no reason to come here for a few years then leave to get a "proper job" whatever that may be.

Despite what some people may say, I think Cabin Crew have every right to demand a fair wage and to make a career out of their chosen job.

I don't think any of us at MF are demanding anything extravagant, just enough to live on - that means having a reasonable amount left after bills to put towards savings, or god forbid, to enjoy life a bit. I don't think that's unreasonable. All I'm saying is that £1,000 (in fact, I earned under that for November) is not really enough, and doesn't appear to be at the level BA had suggested in the past to us.

At the end of the day, money isn't everything but I don't think that paying your staff a pittance with the aim of pushing them out of flying within a certain time frame is the way forward. I think that's regressive thinking in some ways.

[Betty girl]

Thanks for that Smell the coffee,

Really hope you get promoted quickly or the salary improves.

Glad that so far you are enjoying it despite the low wage.

Just out of interest BA have spoken about bonuses on M/F in the past. Have they told you what these will be and what do you have to do to trigger one?

[tomkins]

Student in debt
I remember very clearly that nf was promoted as market rate plus 10% that is why I started a thread "market rate" on this forum,to find out what market rate might be.I was interested in a move over to nf for new challenges and new routes (from lgw).£1100 is an insult as this is by no way anywhere near market rate plus 10%.The terms and conditions with this new contract are unbelievable,the potential to earn a decent wage in comparison to that which is demanded of you is mindblowing.Good luck to all who try,but I fear manny shattered dreams.

[Betty girl]

Studentindept,

Bill Francis himself used the words 'market rate plus 10%' quite a number of times, it was certainly nothing to do with Bassa other than they might have been quoting him.

What amazes me is that you seem to think this kind of wage is ok and that some of you living on vastly higher wages are so fast to come on here and defend this kind of pay.

The CSM wage is, I will grant you, 'market rate and probably plus 10%' but the main crew wage and the wage of those main crew on the Future Talent programme is well below market rate and especially for Heathrow, the most expensive area in the whole of the UK to live.

Some of them are living on the South coast, Midlands, Wales etc and driving in because they are finding it hard to find somewhere cheap enough to live. It must be costing them a fortune in petrol.

I truly feel for these people because I can see that they are keen and just want to work for BA. The basics have never been good as a new entrant for any airline and it is is always a leap of faith because until your allowances start coming through you're never quite sure if you will earn enough unless you know people. With any airline it is hard at first but this package is just beyond belief and quite frankly it is taking advantage of the aspirations of young people to work for the Flag carrier..

[essessdeedee]

I dont thnk that anyone is being taken advantage of here. However the fleet will need to become a bit bigger before they can use collective bargaining effectively to negotiate a more realistic package. Otherwise BA will see a huge turnover rate where the costs outweigh the advantages to an efficient highly flexible fleet.

[StudentInDebt]

Bill Francis himself used the words 'market rate plus 10%' quite a number of times, it was certainly nothing to do with Bassa other than they might have been quoting him.The only place I've seen it mentioned is on this forum, in all the written communication I've seen where MF salaries were discussed IFCE managers (including BF) evaded the question. However, I don't have access to all of IFCE comms and I've not spoken to Bill Francis directly, if you have and he used those words then I'll take your word for it.

What amazes me is that you seem to think this kind of wage is ok and that some of you living on vastly higher wages are so fast to come on here and defend this kind of pay. I've never expressed an opinion on it so I have no idea how you know what I think about it. :confused:

[Betty girl]

Hi Student in debt,

This was one of the many many times that Bill used this phrase. This was from an open question and reply session Bill did back on 15th October 2009 on the BA forum via ESS but he has used it many times since. It maybe because you are NOT cabin crew and therefore privy to what he writes or says that you have been unaware of it. Never the less he HAS said it numerous times and it is clearly not what he has brought in because the rates that Mixed Fleet are working to are below even Virgin and BMI.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 Oct 2009.
I have always been clear with crew that we need to be market competitive going forward.

I want to be very clear that this is not a criticism in any way of current crew or their salaries, whether at LHR or LGW. Just that if I am to recruit new crew at Heathrow, when we hopefully begin to grow again, I will need to do it at market +10% rates of pay and new terms and conditions.

As you know my current focus is on a voluntary approach to reducing crew numbers, rather than recruitment

Thanks Bill
__________________
Bill Francis
Head of InFlight Customer Experience (IFCE)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope that clarifies it for you.

P.S. All Bills blogs to cabin crew are still available for all Cabin crew to read on the cabin crew forum on the ESS system.

I may have assumed you were defending BA because you seemed to be questioning what had been said or not said by Bill. My apologies if I have misunderstood your motive for posting here.

[StudentInDebt]

Thank you Betty girl, it does indeed. I tried to remove my original comment but the delete comment function didn't work as I expected :uhoh:

I've sent you a PM but rest assured that have no interest in defending BA if I think they are in the wrong ;)

[SlideBustle]

I agree with everything Betty Girl says if I'm honest.

I can understand and accept the need for change. However BA said Market rate plus 10% was the salary on Mixed Fleet. Well I have spoken to crew who work for other airlines (or worked) including a very large airline that has orange as it's brand colour ;) and they get paid more. I have also heard some crew from charters not accepting. Now I know there are crew on MF from some of these airlines and they may be fine, that may be just because of base or trips. I don't know but this is what I have heard.

The problem is taking home £1000 this day and age, in SE England is nowhere near acceptable! People do it, of course they do, but they struggle if they are not living at home!

The fact that does amaze me mind, is the fact that most people who seem accepting of this salary seem to be people on vastly higher pay than them. That's fine - as they are doing a job that pays those wages, but you can't just sit back and claim that if they want more they should just leave!

Anyway, to get back on topic, I am glad most of you on MF seem to be enjoying it so far. I do hope, however you are able to get collective bargaining soon so that you can fight for better wages and conditions. As LHR-LAS-LHR double with 1 day off in between seems abit much really!

Hope you all are enjoying it still! Safe flying!

[fruitbat]

Well Mixed Fleet have MRU and HND as their two LH routes in FEB. At least they are seeing some of the good destinations. And BA must be saving a fortune in Box payments....

[superllama87]

I've considered moving to the UK and applying for MF but I have to say the only thing that turns me off MF is the pay - if youre earning under 1K per month I don't understand how you can live anywhere near London??

For me, the rostering also seems better. A PSA return equates to less than half of an average duty at my airline. We can also work up to four back of the clock duties in a row (no rest days between!), where some of those duties are 11 hours.

All in all, I enjoy working hard and earning decent money though...I don't live extravagently, but what MF offers doesn't seem right?

[Smell the Coffee]

Superllama, unless you apply for the role of CSM I would stay where you are.

The job is enjoyable but unless you have relatives within commuting distance that allow you to live rent-free you will find it very difficult to live on those wages around London... As i can confirm from personal experience.

[atmosphere]

I have just been offered CSM with BA

What do current CSM's on M/F think of it it down there! I am hoping the role will be a lot more involved than I am currently used to!?

I've also heard that the money isn't perhaps as good as being advertised, if someone doesn't mind saying how much they are likely to take home as a Customer Service Manager that would be great!

[superllama87]

I doubt I have enough experience as CM (only 6 months) at my current airline to go for the mixed fleet CSM...do they take direct entry CSM anyway? I too would be curious as to the pay for CSM...

[Smell the Coffee]

superllama, we are taking in direct entry CSMs, and have been doing this from the start.

Check out the requirements on the recruitment page..

At the end of the day, if you do the math and find that £1200 or so (sometimes less, sometimes a bit more) will pay your bills, then I would say go for it - as I said, it's a fun job and promotion is a real possibility.

If you can't, then stay where you are.

[atmosphere]

So about £1200 for Main Crew

What can a CSM look to bring home flight pay inclusive!?

I am really excited about the role of CSM, It is vastly different from the current Cabin Manager role that I am currently doing. i think it is a fantastic opportunity to get involved early. I am pumped but also nervous! I do really love the airline I currently fly for, but I think the opportunity at BA is to big to walk away from
:ok:

[Betty girl]

Not sure if we have any CSM's that post on here.

They look pretty happy. The deal is a lot better than main crew. Basic £24,000 plus 2.40 ph hour paid while on duty and away on trips from report to clear.

Spoke to one the other day and she was enjoying it but said she was always very busy.

[atmosphere]

Reward package starting from £29,000 pa, with potential to increase annually in line with performance, includes:

Elapsed Hourly Pay
In addition to the above, you will be eligible to participate in our management bonus scheme (Performance Related Reward) of up to 20% of base salary reviewed annually

34 days annual leave

It states 29k basic. A lot of people saying 24k. I'm presuming the website is accurate?

Is anyone an authority on the subject?

[superllama87]

the position as CSM does sound amazing, however it states on the website you need 2 years exp. in a senior position to apply...unfortunately i only have 6 months! patience...

i guess i'll just wait for future talent to open...

[Betty girl]

Atmosphere
£29,000 is what they expect you to earn with the hourly elapsed payments of 2.40 ph and with the bonus.

If you re read it does not say basic of £29,000. It says package of £29,000 which includes everything but of course it is their estimate, it could be more or less depending on your bonus and what roster you operate. If you look at FT rewards page it explains it more clearly.

Superllama,
I doubt 6 months experience would be enough for Future Talent but you could give it a go, just tick the box to say you would take CC if you were not sucessful as FT.

[ottergirl]

It states 29k basic. A lot of people saying 24k.
The 29K includes hourly rate so is total pay, the basic is definately 24K as far as I know.

[Smell the Coffee]

For CSM expect around £1500-1600 a month, depending on your trips. Some months will be more, others less.

It's pretty much on a level with what existing BA shorthaul crew earn (non-Mixed Fleet).

[atmosphere]

Whats a CSM roster like?

Can anyone tell me how the bidding works, My partner works for a different airline with a 6-3 pattern, would I be able to plan my days off around theirs with this bidding system?

[jsy_james]

Before I read some of the posts in this thread!! haha. I'm starting at MF on the 10th of March, and it really is a huge leap of faith... I live in Jersey so need to move to London, I'm on about £1600 at my current airline, love the people I work with, but the route's are extremely monotonous- this is why I decided to join MF.

Can any current Mixed Fleeters tell me how much they are enjoying it and give me some decent reasons to leave my comfortable position!?

Many Thanks, James

[TightSlot]

Folks - please remember that this is not a thread intended to aid recruitment for BA MF - for those questions, please use the Wannabe's forum.

[randomair]

A basic salary in the UK of £29000, after tax and NI etc will pay about £1779.52 depending on personal circumstances. Also the hourly rate is not taxed to the same extent as basic salary, so £1700-£1900 should be a realistic figure for a full months work.

[Betty girl]

Firstly the basic is £24,000 not £29,000. £29,000 is the total package including flight pay for the CSM the most senior crew member, who also doubles as a manager to a team of main crew.

Secondly this thread was set up to find out how people on Mixed Fleet are enjoying the fleet and the experience, not to discuss their sallary.

[Smell the Coffee]

James let's now focus on the positives - rapid promotion compared to existing BA fleets, new and interesting destinations on the radar - Tokyo, Mauritius, Nairobi - possibly San Diego and Buenos Aires though no decisions have been made on who will operate the last two.

The fleet will only grow, and BA have poured a lot of money and talent into this project, so you will have a lot of support.

The vast majority of crew i have flown with, whether CSM, FTC or Cabin Crew have been very easy to work with, and many like to go out downroute to sample a local beer if nothing else.

Bidding allows you to request days off a month in advance, as well as for certain types of work. Leave is very easy to request, and can be requested the day before, all subject to availability.

At the end of the day, we all make sacrifices in life and you really need to look at where you want to be in the future, not now.

[PC767]

San Diego and Buenos Aires are on the trip lists for 'legacy' world wide crew.

[Betty girl]

This thread was not set up for Bassa supporters to come on and have a go at Mixed Fleet crew.

It was set up to find out how Mixed Fleet are finding it, from Mixed Fleet crew like Smell the Coffee, their experiences and not how others think it is.

Just because Buenas Aries and San Diego ARE on the trip descriptions for World Wide Fleet does not mean they might not transfer over later in the year.

However looking at the list we were given with the agreements, they were not included, but who knows.

The trips that are going, unless BA change their mind are the Follows:-

Already gone or about to go=
Nairobi,
Denver,
Las Vegus,
Hanenda,
Mauritius,
Budapest,
Prague,
Kiev,
St. Petersburg.

Schedualed to go in the future=

Abuja,
Dallas FW,
Luanda,
Atlanta,
Chicago,
Monteal,
Sofia,
Amsterdam,
Copenhagen,
Tripoli.

But others will come and go and trips will move backward and forward between the fleets if we believe what BA say.

[Betty girl]

deleted as not relevant now.

[Pointingpilot]

Just to show you all the other side of the coin..

My friend who has joined MF from the holdpool is just about to finish their first full month of flying inc the longhaul. We sat down and worked out last night her take home after tax and pension will be £1222.

They come from a sales background and was absolutely delighted by it. She would have had to to do at least one days overtime to hit that in her previous job and she felt she hasn't worked anywhere near as hard. (I did do her bidding for her though :ok:) Her housemate who is easyjet crew told me she is envious of her because although she can earn more she gets better perks and to travel and to do longhaul.

Word on the line is that most of the dissatisfaction on MF is coming from the ex temps??

[Betty girl]

Pointingpilot,

I am glad your friend is enjoying it.

I think the bidding might be a bit of the problem but as you know on E/F it is the same system but we don't have to deal with time changes so having seen a couple of rosters I do hope it does get sorted because having worked on world wide and E/F, I know that the way you feel after a long haul duty is totally different, to how you feel after, even a very long day, a E/F duty.

Bill is just doing a blog and in the answer to the first question, he mentions he hopes it will all settle down for Mixed Fleet crew in time.

[Smell the Coffee]

Word on the line is that most of the dissatisfaction on MF is coming from the ex temps??

Most of the Mixed Fleet crew are currently ex-temps used to earning 50% more than they did now, so no surprise there.

There is also disquiet amongst some of the CSMs who feel they aren't being rewarded in proportion to their extra workload ... but that's a different story.

At the end of the day, I am sure things WILL improve on a number of levels - and there is no doubt that barring roster issues, which EVERYONE has had issues with, this job still suits a lot of people.

Not sure that I would currently recommend Mixed Fleet to those at other UK airlines - hopefully, given a year or two and with a more diverse mixture of routes and earning potential, that will change.

[Pointingpilot]

Yeh, similar happened at LGW.

A lot of them left and then applied for Full time EF. Thats not available anymore. I really think the emphasis will have to be on roster flexibility in order for MF to succeed. Virgin can almost rewrite their rosters using their swap system talking to friends.

[ebonair]

Just got offered FTC program and now reading everything in the forum I am questioning a lot on what to do???

The whole experience seems good and interesting, however the pay seem really low which concerns me, I am going as I am really delighted to be part of something new with such a big airline, but on the other will i be this happy to do my job under the constant financial worries??? I don't know??

They say it take a min of a year to go up, would anyone believe this time might change for a shorter period due to the fact they seem to need more CSM???

anyone on mixed fleet on FTC and see already some changes,


Thanks so much,
Regards,

[90027]

I am just about to join MF. My only concern is that I will probably be one of the oldest on the course and my experience at my last airline in the UK was awful. Most of those nasty little females never let the 3 of us on the course (of 24) forget it. It colored all of my time at that airline. It was very shocking after moving to the UK to find that.

[Betty girl]

It definitely wont be like that in BA on any of our fleets. People join of all ages and I have flown with a new entrant that was 53 years old and now people can be join up to 63 year if they meet the requirements of the interview.

[Betty girl]

Latest route to go to Mixed fleet is Luanda in March.


From WW blue
From E/Fred
New black

November 2010 - Prague (PRG), Pisa (PSA), St Petersburg (LED)
December 2010 - Denver (DEN), Las Vegas (LAS)
January 2011 - Budapest (BUD), Nairobi (NBO)
February 2011 - Kiev (KBP), Tripoli (TIP), Mauritius (MRU) and Haneda*(HND)
March 2011 - Luanda (LAD)

So far BA have kept to the list in the appendix to the offer as they said they would.

[Yellow Pen]

BGs comments are interesting and I don't doubt genuine. It does lead me to a few interesting thoughts though.

Firstly, what was this individual really expecting the pay to be like on MF? Had they not done the slightest research into the projected income? Coming from a temp contract she must surely have been aware that the big allowances were gone for good? After all the raison d'etre of Mixed Fleet was that it was lower cost than existing fleets. Whilst a lower income than the temp contract is undesirable, it surely couldn't come as a surprise?

Secondly, on the matter of service, yes, service is slow. It took over 3 hours to complete the service in Club on the flight I paxed on. But it is a new fleet, and SF LGW took a long time to complete Club service when they started out. They don't know. Practice may not make perfect but it does make efficient.

Finally, the rostering. I don't know if the temp was on WW, where 4 days off after a long trip is assumed, but complaining about getting a long haul trip either side of leave elicits little sympathy from me I'm afraid. This is after all a 365 day industry, and if you want an extra day off then really you need to book that as leave, because if it ain't leave then it's the companys day. On long haul we all learn to make the most of our time off and part of that is working through the tiredness. If the individual concerned can't enjoy a day off because she's tired the day after a return from the trip then regret to say long haul really isn't for her and she won't cope in the long run.

Whilst I am sorry that the girl concerned isn't enjoying Mixed Fleet despite her initial enthusiasm, it does strike me that her expectations are a little unrealistic. I suspect this may have been partly what BA had in mind when they were concerned about contaminating Mixed Fleet; not that the people were bad, but that their expectations were unrealistic.

[TightSlot]

We really don't want this thread to become the Mark II BA IR thread (one is enough) - If it starts to include the usual partisan opinions, then it has strayed off track.

If you're on MF and can relay information, then this is the place to post - If you're not on MF, then you almost certainly shouldn't be posting here.

[Betty girl]

Latest route for Mixed Fleet is Atlanta from April.

[sas319]

Anyone heard anything further about getting 747 on mf too?

[atmosphere]

According to some on M/F they have seen a training day placed on the roster! which has sparked speculation that it would be for a conversion course to the 747

I also heard Seatle was joining M/F??

[blue____]

New Mixed fleet routes have been confirmed for May.

AMSTERDAM & MANCHESTER.

more routes are coming shortly.

And yes, we will be licensed on the 747 from April. (it has been confirmed and communicated to us a few days ago)

It's getting better and better and we enjoy it more and more!

[VCC2]

let me first say that as VCC, I enjoyed my recent fam trip on the 777, a great bunch that seemed to really be enjoying themselves both on and of the aircraft. They included me in everything they did even though I was considerably older than most of them. I hope they do get the B747' as I will then be able to do 747 recency with them instead of the classroom or Cardiff. Good luck to you all.

[Choccybox]

Hi All,

I'm a CSM on MF and i can give you a small insight into how things are.

I don't post on here, but i do read and feel that some of the comments warrent some clarification.

I came from current fleets and have worked for BA for 15 years, so i've seen both sides of the fence.
As a CSM, my basic is £25000 and on top of that, with a full months flying and 2 allocated Ground Duty Days, my allowances range between £600 and £800 pounds at the moment.

For me. it's a great place to work, the majority of the crew are excellent and we as a fleet have a wealth of experience from both internal and external crew.

Yes, we are very new as a fleet and there have been problems with rostering and time off after trips, however, these problems have and are being dealt with on a continuous basis.

These problems were all present at the start of SFG and as time moves on, things will become better and the crew will become more comfortable with the services and requirements of Mixed Fleet.

We will now start to get licensensed on the 747 from the end of March and this will open up opportunities for the fleet and possibly some new destinations( although not confirmed!) and can only be good for the airline as growth is definately the way forward.

What I will say though is, there is a small amount of negativity surrounding pay etc, but the majority of the crew are happy, especially those who have come from other airlines and industry, and are used to 4 sector days and no nightstops or longhaul trips.

I hope this gives a little insider info into MF.

Regards
CB

[atmosphere]

With the upcoming 747 training taking place soon, are there any rumours of new routes to be added to M/F?

[Smell the Coffee]

No.

However, any new routes that are transferred depend on having the appropriate number of 747-trained crew to operate the service, as well as avoiding transferring routes seens as financially lucrative from worldwide fleet (though this strategy could change).

[cessnapete]

Surely BA should transfer the most 'lucrative routes' , ie most expensive to BA, first.
This is a profit making company and MF costs are a fraction of WW/EF.
Savings on one route, the Haneda MF operation, over a year are over £3 mil vs. a WW operation. (Salaries, allowances, roster efficencies, etc.)

[Smell the Coffee]

Cessnapete, the answer comes from a mixed fleet manager, and the current division of routes would seem to back this up - with the exception of HND which is a new service, most other longhaul MF routes were never particularly lucrative on worldwide ... DEN, LAS, NBO, LAD, ATL, MRU ....that may change with the introduction of the 747 on the route, unless MF picks up DFW, IAH, YVR, LOS and other "unpopular" 3-day trips ... in which case you may start to notice the pattern emerging.

Another consideration is the customer satisfaction scores for a particular route; where these have been historically lower than average, MF managers have aimed to pick these up ... this was the rationale given for transferring LAD to MF.

EZE and SAN will both be operated by Worldwide...EZE in particular will be reasonably lucrative on a Worldwide contract.

Personally this doesn't concern me ... I have flown to the vast majority of destinations on the BA network, and quite enjoy shorter trips ...

[Betty girl]

cesnapete,
In time Mixed Fleet WILL get to do some of the longer routes, that you see as lucrative.

BA intends to keep a fair share of routes on all our fleets. They want to give Mixed Fleet crew some good and varied destinations to go to and they also want to ensure that WW and E/F crew do not get adversely affected by the introduction of Mixed Fleet.

B F and K W have both stated that routes will move back and forth between fleet and that although WW and E/F will get smaller gradually, they plan to keep a fair ratio of lucrative and non lucrative trips on our fleets.

Did you post your post with the intention of stirring things up!!

I for one am very happy for Mixed Fleet to get some good destinations as long as it is done in a fair and balanced way and I believe that this will be done.

If I hear of any of the 747 routes, I will post them on here.

[cessnapete]

Posted with tongue in cheek!!!

[fruitbat]

Rumour from another place says the June routes for MF are San Diego and one of the LAX services

[Young Paul]

I have a friend (experienced CC) who joined MF as a FA, and I thought I could offer some thoughts based on his experiences - he's not a pprune user.

Firstly, it's very much the case that he is where he aspired to be. He believes in BA, he loves working longhaul, especially in premium service, and wants to make a go of it.

However ... it represented a significant pay cut to go there. Obviously during training there is none of the £2.40 per hour. Furthermore, it's spread over six weeks, some of the days are very short during training, but you have to drive in and out of the LHR area for all of them - lots of driving, lots of petrol, lots of rush hour traffic which you'll have to cover the cost of yourself. My friend knew this period was going to be expensive, so rescheduled payments to allow for it. Even so, he put a couple of thousand miles on his car in this time.

You have to pay for your own US visa, despite the fact that it is only usable for work!! This costs nearly £100, and will be docked from your salary. First month's salary was around £800. Next was therefore around £700. My friend doesn't think that much more than £1100 per month is going to be likely even once the allowances start to kick in.

Looking at rosters, hours are already being balanced so hopefully you won't hit 900 in eight months - my friend has mostly longhaul trips, and LOTS of sby. You may be rostered a duty the day after a nightflight (NBO), and the fleet doesn't generally have crew rest areas - my friend said "crew rest" was sitting shivering on a crew seat by the door. It's legal ....

<section edited by Young Paul>

Basically, as far as I can tell, the conditions for crew at MF are substantially worse than average, presumably to try and counterbalance the expensive WW contracts - he's hundreds of pounds a month worse off than at easyJet, which was where he was before, and having to live in an area which will cost probably around £200 a month more. There is no way that this is "going rate plus 10%", it is unrealistic to expect to be able to live on this unless you have paid for accommodation.

There is a monthly bonus, paid quarterly, for people who have not been off sick or late in the month. This is around £150

BA offers you the ability to get an advance against next month's salary, apparently. This is great if you know that this month you're only getting £1600, but next month you're getting £2300. However, if the range is £700-1100, this is probably a fast way to end up in more debt.

As I've said already, this is totally where he wants to be. But the lack of money is something that really worries him.

Edit: There is compensation for days off lost. I thought there probably had to be!

[Betty girl]

As promised I am posting the next route to go to Mixed Fleet and it is San Diego in June it has just been posted on the BA cabin crew forum by management.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The below list shows the routes which have now transferred to Mixed Fleet - these are correct at the point in time when this page was last updated. Routes in Blue have transferred from Worldwide and are Longhaul routes, Routes in Red have transferred from Eurofleet and are Shorthaul routes.

These routes are subject to possible future change i.e. it is possible that any of these routes could move back to Worldwide/Eurofleet and be replaced by different routes in future months.

November 2010 - Prague (PRG), Pisa (PSA), St Petersburg (LED)
December 2010 - Denver (DEN), Las Vegas (LAS)
January 2011 - Budapest (BUD), Nairobi (NBO)
February 2011 - Kiev (KBP), Tripoli (TIP), Mauritius (MRU) and Haneda* (HND)
March 2011 - Luanda (LAD)
April 2011 - Atlanta (ATL)
May 2011 - Manchester (MAN) and Amsterdam (AMS)
June 2011 - San Diego** (SAN)

* New BA route from 19th Feb 2011
** New BA route from June 2011
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope you new Mixed Fleeters enjoy it.

BG.

[atmosphere]

Apparently an announcement is to be made about M/F today, Suggestions, that it could be about pay for Cabin Crew.

Any truth in the rumour?

[prism]

Didn't this rumour start on the BASSA forum though atmosphere ?

No sign of any announcment.

[Betty girl]

Recently had a chat with a very pro-Mixed Fleet Future Talent Crew member.

She said to me that she was feeling very tired and disappointed with the rostering and pay on Mixed Fleet.
She took home last month, including her quarterly bonus of £300 and her £100 extra as FTC, just £1100.

She said that the crews were lovely but very young and she hoped the rostering and pay would get improved soon. She had an interview for CSM coming up but if she was unsuccessful in achieving that, she would have to consider leaving.

I said that I had heard rumors that a lot were leaving and she said that she new of many that had left.

She said that she spent every flight, training people how to do the job and that, that was adding to her tiredness.

I asked my manager if many were leaving and she said she had heard it was 3% but that, that figure may be out of date. She added, as the fleet had only be going a few months that, that was a high figure and it should be of concern to BA that so many were leaving at this early stage.

Anyway I truely hope the pay and rostering gets improved for all of you because apart from that most crew seem happy.

[fruitbat]

I don't know where to start with this troll...

Firstly, everybody knows the salary, rosters, uniform standards before they start. If not, you should have paid more attention at the AD.

MF is not hard to sustain for management. In fact it's what BA has wanted for years, a fleet THEY can manage rather than the Union. MF work to Scheme, so they are up to 20 percent more efficient for half the pay.

With the UK unemployment rate at 25% for 18-25 year olds BA has no problems getting applications, in fact they have had to close it to deal with the back log.

And rumours of lots leaving are just that, rumours. In fact the numbers leaving are much less than than BA had planned for. Having said that, BA are reviewing the pay and rostering to try and iron out some of the initial concerns.

And Betty Girl, did you ask her if that £1100 'take home', was with or without her HOST payment? Very misleading if you don't quote the right figures. After all if you went mad buying champagne and shopping in Abercrombie every trip, you could have a 'take home' of zero.

[Betty girl]

Fruitbat,

Yes that was her take home after HOST and NO I did not ask her what kind of withdrawals she made on her HOST card but I am sure it would be similar to most crew, enough to allow her to have some food and a few drinks and I very much doubt that she was spending it on champagne!!.

I think it is you, that is the troll and I find it very strange that you are so fast to defend the salary level on Mixed Fleet. I speak to flight crew daily on the airbus, that fly with Mixed Fleet crew, and 777 pilots commuting and I haven't met one yet that feels these crew are being paid enough. I think you will find that it is actually, you, that is in the minority with your views.

Unlike you, I actually know crew that are working on Mixed Fleet and I know that they are ALL very unhappy with the pay, some CSMs may be happy but those that were Worldwide crew before being CSMs are not so happy. Many crew have come from other airlines and are very aware that they are earning less than they were in their previous airline. This is fact Fruitbat and the market rate plus 10% is not what they have been receiving and many feel very let down.

The area surrounding LHR is the most expensive area in the whole of the UK to live in, and many are really struggling. Those that live further away, in less expensive areas of the UK, are struggling with the commute and the cost of travelling back and forth.

I am not going to apologise for highlighting this, as I and many other crew, both Mixed Fleeters; and crew from WW and E/F, want to see this situation improved.

The girl that I spoke to was a very keen Future Talent crew member and was very keen on Mixed Fleet working, and I was very surprised that she told me she was very unhappy with the salary and the rostering. She said, she also was very tired!

There are some, that want to see it fail, and they are actually, more than happy with these pay levels but I am a realist and realise that Mixed Fleet is here to stay, and as such, I want these people to be paid a living wage! You yourself, an out and out fan of what is happening to our airline, should realise that it will only work if the sallary attracts the best crew, not just thoes that are still living at home with their parents.

As for you saying that you feel 747girl is a troll; I think that is very unfair. If you look at her previous posts, you can clearly see that she has worked for other airlines, and has wanted to work for BA for quite some time. Many people are turning down the job due to the pay levels and I don't think it is fair to dismiss how she feels, as her just being a troll. Believe it or not but most Mixed Fleet crew are hoping that we all get merged together, for various reasons; but I like you don't believe this will happen, never the less many of them are hoping for it!!

[fruitbat]

You misunderstand, I'm not defending the salary. I'm just saying from BA's point of view they have what they've wanted for a long time, a young, motivated fleet with a very efficient rostering.

The total pot of money that BA spends on CC is never going to increase. All that could be done is the make that 'pot' distributed more fairly. So BG if you like, everyone on the old contract could give up 20 percent of their pay to increase the pay of MF.

Pilots have changed the way our income is distributed in the past, before 2002 SFO's on longhaul could earn much more than shorthaul Captains. We decided that wasn't fair so we changed it. There were some winners and some losers.

Unfortunately you want to keep your income the same, whilst lamenting at the fate of MF. MF is on such a low salary purely because you are still on a high salary. If you were willing to give up some, they could have more. But I don't think you're going to do that....

[nick14]

My wife has been MF since January.

Yes the pay is not brilliant but you are forgetting that the staff travel is worth its weight in gold! If you want to earn from 1500-2000 a month by all means go work for other airlines on seasonal contracts with little opportunities for advancement and poor rosters. I have seen the effect it has on a human changing from earlies, lates and nights. Yes we were better off.

The training is first class with a great emphasis on customer service and safety. There is a great mentality and feeling of community between the crew.

All I can say is get in, stick with it and the rewards will come!!

[Betty girl]

nick,
Very glad your wife is enjoying working for BA.

I have always loved working for BA and I agree there are loads of very good things about BA and working on Mixed Fleet.

I am by no means trying to put people off from working on Mixed Fleet and I have actually encouraged people to join.
I was just upset that so many have felt let down by the pay level and the promise of market rate plus 10%.

Hope she continues to enjoy the job as I always have.

[TightSlot]

I'll repeat the previous post...

The title of this thread indicates that it is directed at those actually flying as Cabin Crew on Mixed Fleet. If you do not fit into this category, please consider whether this is the most appropriate place for you to be posting.

In short - General discussions on BA IR issues are for the other thread, and will be (and have been) deleted from here.

[Young Paul]

Nick14: Again this is based on the experience of a friend who has told me a lot about how it is on BA MF.

With regard to other airlines, there aren't many who roster seven successive days, or (thinking of roster quality) shorthaul duties the day after an overnight longhaul trip with no proper crew rest area, or who roster you for blocks and blocks of standby when you need to work to earn enough money to live on. Staff travel is great, if you have enough money to live on and a bit more - perhaps if you are married to someone earning more than you, that works out better. Not everyone is in that situation. Training is good - but we all know that this doesn't determine what goes on on line, and some days are better than others.

With regard to youth unemployment, this is irrelevant - crew recruited for MF were currently employed as crew elsewhere. (This cartoon has a little relevance, perhaps ...Dilbert comic strip for 05/22/1995 from the official Dilbert comic strips archive. (http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-05-22/)) BA took on some of the most competent, motivated and enthusiastic crew in the UK, and these guys want it to work, the training really encourages them to believe in BA. The sense I get is that as they can bid for what they want, most issues will be put up with. But if the crew can't afford to live (which will be the case if the short term impact of low money during training becomes long term, due to insufficient work), then they will end up leaving.

[I.A.T.U. Butler]

Full time BA legacy longhaul crew taking all of their leave, find themselves up against the 900 hour cap and get extra 24 hr av's rostered.

If MF crew are being rostered 140 hours plus a month, they will hit the 900 hour cap in seven months. Then what? The contract says ground duties.

[Yellow Pen]

Nobody's being rostered 140 hours per month. It isn't legal. A read of your JPMs would tell you that.

[I.A.T.U. Butler]

This was posted earlier in the thread. Looks like more than 100 hours to me


TU 11 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
WE 12 JAN LHR-LAS
FR 14 JAN LAS-LHR
SA 15 JAN OFF DUTY
SU 16 JAN OFF DUTY
MO 17 JAN LHR-BUD-LHR
TU 18 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
WE 19 JAN LHR-NBO
TH 20 JAN NBO-LHR
SA 22 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
SU 23 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
MO 24 JAN OFF DUTY
TU 25 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
WE 26 JAN STANDBY AT HOME
TH 27 JAN STANDBY AT HOME
FR 28 JAN OFF DUTY
SA 29 JAN OFF DUTY
SU 30 JAN LHR-NBO
MO 31 JAN NBO-LHR

OK let me try again: if after 9 months you reach 900 hours on a MF contract, what sort of Ground Duties will you do as per your contract?

[Hotel Mode]

Looks like more than 100 hours to me

Its actually just over 81hrs.

[finding_nema]

OK let me try again: if after 9 months you reach 900 hours on a MF contract, what sort of Ground Duties will you do as per your contract?

Although some people continue to claim it's because of something much more sinister, I still see the ground working clause as a standard industry practice, which is currently in my own contract anyway at my current airline. Certainly it makes sense when there is bad weather, ATC problems, industrial action etc. to have cabin crew on airport standby who would otherwise be in a crew room with no flights departing, out talking to customers, even if it's just chatting in the queue whilst the ground staff themselves are sat physically on the desks rebooking people. I have no idea what happened at BA or the mentality of existing crews, but certainly at my airline during the volcanic ash incident this year, Crewing had to issue an email to all crew saying not to phone in, because that many people wanted to get involved to help our customers or work outside our published roster. Surely this is exactly the kind of corporate culture BA want on their new fleet. The roster you posted, in terms of actual flying duty hours, looks a lot closer to 81 hours, which if you times that by 11 still only adds up to a total of 891 hours, if they were rostered like that every month over 11 months. It's worth considering this was when MF first started more or less, so crew were being worked a lot harder as there were fewer of them. So even if you were that busy, and that's not including standbys, more than single days off, high hours flights where you only operate in one direction, at best, with that rostering, you're going to hit 900 hours in 11 months, and you have 30 days leave, plus an annual recurrent course to attend.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

As a BA LGW crewmember I certainly would like to hear more about what mixed fleet is like. We are under no illusions down here that it's coming to us in some way, shape, or form.

We've also lost at least 3 good crew to mixed fleet as CSMs. As that is a pretty big pay rise, I'd say good luck to them and wish them every success.

There certainly is a lot of urban rumours that I think currrent and potential BA crew would like straightened out. Other certain forums and those who "know friends of friends on the fleet" just don't cut it for me to form an opinion either way.

So mixed fleeters, make yourselves heard. Trust me everyone is REALLY interested, as it's almost fear of the unknown I feel for some now.

You may also poach some more great crew from us at LGW as a result :-(

[rowone]

hi all,
as a csm on mixed fleet and totally new to BA ,i would like to reaffirm some of the more positve posts.MF is very exciting from a management point of view,the flying is also exciting,but can be challenging at times,as with all cabin crew roles.The majority of crew i fly with are very happy,competent people.Many have come from better paid employment with other airlines and nearly all have a belief that the pay and conditions will improve as the fleet progresses.The ex-temps on the whole are brilliant and very welcome for their wealth of BA experience.There is however, some stirrings of unrest over pay , in particular.I personally would like to see that addressed,because the last thing a new fleet needs , again in my opinion, is a constant flow of leavers/new enterents.As a csm,I feel the job has many challenges ahead,which is the main reason for my joining...to help guide a new fleet to a successful future within a great company.I would like to say to the other fleet's members..youre welcome to interact with us , we welcome your experience,as crew as well as people.Apologies for waffleing...

[prism]

rowone we do try to engage with you but the whole lay out of CRC is not condusive and MF huddle around one desk next to the Ops desks. With all the other fleets you will see the CSDs sat at CTM desks working alongside and at other empty computer positions in other areas. MF needs to spread it's wings. I know of only 1 CSM who preps in the CSD area and there must be about 70 CSMs by now if not more. As CSM's you could learn alot from prepping at the CSD desks as dont forget many CSD's are trainers, selectors ex fleet managers, ex duty managers etc etc from lots of different experiances within BA and International competitors.

I don't think we should be leading our crew on MF to expect changes in pay as the pay structure on MF is the new BA pay scale. We last changed the scales in 1997 and those are now only valid for existing crew.All new entrants to BA cabin crew will be to these new simpler scales. A working agreement could be established to enure greater protections / benefits eg If I were a CSM I would be encouraging for an amendment to ensure all long haul flights trigger 1 day off as this would help with rest and Duty of Care. There are many of us out here who like yourself joined a new fleet to help foster a new era . 2000 of us were the original Midfleet but for reasons ln the past were disbanded after 5 years so have experiances many of the challenges you are.

People joining BA must read their contract before signing them as each persons situation is different.

I hope you will encourage your teams and fellow CSMs to start moving into the senior crew areas in CRC and then we may be able to break down some of the barriers that may or may not be there and learn from each other for the benefit of everyone.

[Betty girl]

Welcome to BA, rowone.

I hope it will improve for you all too, especially the main crew.

I personally see us all as one team and I know that many WW and E/F crew feel as I do, that it is not your fault as crew, that Mixed Fleet has been started but that it is a shame that your terms and conditions have been set so low. Had it been just a little bit better many more current crew would have probably wanted to join and this 'them and us' situation may then have not arisen to the extent it has.

Anyway, I truly hope things will improve for you all because it is clear to see that many of you are really keen. One of the sad things for me, is that on my fleet, I will never again see any new entrants and that is sad because their enthusiasm is always good to see, and always reminds me what a great job we all have.

Take care and good luck in your new job.

[Betty girl]

I also agree to some extent, with what prism has said.

I personally feel that the area that the Mixed Fleet desks are, is not a good place. It is right where no one can help but stare at, as they pass by. In fact it could not have been placed in a more prominant place.

The area is too small and it looks silly when so many of you try and sit at one relatively small desk area.

Why don't you ask for it to be relocated down by the WW crew manager desks.
There are loads of unused desks down there and you would also be next to the SCCM prep area.

Just an idea and I really don't care either way, just think it might be more spacious for you all.

[Smell the Coffee]

We lie in the shadows, you asked for an opinion from someone on Mixed Fleet...here is a very brief summary;

Crew - vast majority are a pleasure to fly with, and you will almost always have company downroute

Routes - Personal, but interesting mixture with 747 coming in June (god I missed that plane)

CSMs - mostly good fun and competent

Opportunities - good opportunities to move into other areas of BA once you're CSM

Pay - shocking; consider yourself lucky if you take home over £1100

Rostering - shocking, many people unhappy with bidding system

That pretty much sums it up at the moment.

[Betty girl]

Well Butler, you will end up being banned from this thread if you post off subject.

Maudie,
I am so sorry for you, sometimes on E/F our bids go a bit wrong. It does take a while to get used to it and then, even then, you can put in an identical bid to the month before, and end up with a totally different roster.

The system on E/F and M/F is supposed to be working to give everyone at least 60 % of what they want. (it's different at LGW, as they have some seniority taken into account). Many E/F crew who get bad rosters talk to Scheduling as one of them is expert at understanding the bid; and if you book an appointment with her, she goes through it with you and explains where you may be going wrong. Sorry but I have forgotten her name but give them a ring and ask for help. Occasionally, if they can see that you got nothing you bid for, they sometimes can amend your roster if trips exist in the system.

I did think it was strange that they gave M/F so many short flights all at once, they are all so short, even E/F crew, who are used to short flights struggle to get the drinks done sometimes. Good luck and I hope you get your roster amended. I actually love those little sectors and if you have some night-stops in among them Manchester and Amsterdam were very popular on E/F for going out in.

If you didn't want to contact scheduling, I'd be happy to give you some tips on bidding if you wanted. PM me and next time we are in the CRC together, I'd be happy to explain it to you as I think the principle of the bid is the same for M/F and E/F.



Good luck.

[tomkins]

Thats the problem with the New Fleet.......to have any kind of decent salary at the end of the month you have to accumulate an enormous amount of flying/downroute hours @ £2.40......unfortunatley the routes and lengths of trips don't lend to doing many paid hours so until NF gets some decent lengthy trips people are always going to be unhappy because living on less than £1100 per month is a joke.
Betty girl,even with good bidding its gonna be hard ,there just isnt enough potential to earn money.

[Betty girl]

That's going to be a big problem because most of the long trips are at LGW, at LHR on E/F and WW most of the trips are just three days.

I think they will need to do something about it or people will leave because as you say, you need long trips to make the hourly rate work and even if you got some of the longer LHR trips, and there really aren't that many, there would not be enough to go around.

You do need either a higher basic or a higher hourly rate.

Good luck, I hope the company take note but in reality, they probably wont until too many people start to leave!!

[Betty girl]

That's a pleasure.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Thank you for the replies from the mixed fleet crew. I think that is exactly what people want to know. Please keep it coming and ignore the trolls. Your part of the BA family and should be involved on every forum.

On the pay issue, we were benchmarked against other full service carriers at LGW back when we became single fleet (2006 if I remember rightly). We were assured we were paid slightly better. On the whole most people are happy with our pay. I'd say it's a very fair wage.

My personal thoughts were BA were going to just use the LGW blueprint for mixed fleet LHR and mirror what we did. Especially when it was advertised by BF as Market rate plus 10%. Has the Market rate dropped that much?

Our scheduling agreement is also "fair" and makes up for most the slight lack of pennies. Yes, there are a few items that could be tweaked, but we've always seemed ready to negotiate here at LGW.

Whilst we do not have a quarterly bonus to look forward to which might help (has one been paid yet as the fleet has been going 6 months?), my bills come monthly, and surely a bonus is exactly that.... a bonus, not part salary as it can't be guaranteed.

Anyway..... Look forward to hearing more, as I know do others.

[tomkins]

Well Vintagekrug we are going to have to differ on certain points here.Smell the coffee was not saying that £1100 was a monthly average ,he said you would be lucky to achieve this figure.....implying that some months you may earn less.
They are not earning anywhere near the "market rate plus 10 %" that BF initially promised.....(unless you can provide some pertinant proof that they are).
If some NF member could explain the bonus system that would be interesting,however, I am led to believe that it is determined by your sickness record.i.e if you report sick during that period.....no bonus.
What do you think about the fact that all these new recruits were told that they were 'outstanding' and the 'elite' when they passed selection....do you not think that they would like to do more than 3 years with BA before moving on to a job that pays better.If pay is not reviewed and with inflation erroding their spending power weekly,most will be forced to do something else maybe well before the three years is up.
Plus LCCsmay not do the same type of work but they take home £1800 plus per month.However much you love your job if you struggle to pay the bills at the end of every month it is going to get you down.

[cherrycoke]

I'd be interested to hear what people's actual average monthly take home is on MF. I currently work for a LCC and my take home pay averaged over the last tax year is £1287. Quite a way off the 1800 quoted above.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

I am a 777 pilot with BA, so I fly with LHR WW, LGW and MF crews.

The vast majority of CC on all 3 fleets are an absolute pleasure to fly with. I have rarely had an issue with any, even at the height of the IA. These are my perspectives on the 3 different fleets.

LHR WW - the service is generally very polished, and everyone knows how it works. It is rare to find a crewmember who has been flying for BA less than 10 years.

LGW - very high service levels. The lower age/experience of the LGW cc is made up for by their Can Do mentality and fun approach to the job that suits the leisure routes they fly.

MF - MF is trying to set very high standards. The standard presented to the customer is excellent, but the inexperience with the BA product/SOP shows in the galley. This is not meant as a criticism - you cannot expect a FTC/CSM with 3 months experience in BA to be as au fait with the "BA Way" as someone doing it 20 years. Where MF have the edge, is their determination to be good, and give the customer what they want. I flew with LGW crew at the start of SFLGW, and the same was true then. I fully expect MF and LGW to be very similar in service levels very quickly.

In summary, I enjoy all my flights, with all different fleets. The service we give to the pax is, I believe, consistently better than most western airlines.

I am led to believe the rostering issues are being looked at. The pilots have fed their dissatisfaction with some of the rosters up the chain, and we have been assured it is in hand.

In terms of pay, personally I feel it is a little on the low side. I wouldn't be surprised if it is tweaked a little, especially if a lot of crew leave. BA see new fleet as the blueprint for their future, so it is in their interest to make it work.

[oliie]

For all wannabe cabin crew, it was great when BA started recruiting, for most people it was a chance to get into BA and hopefully a secure Airline.(inc myself)


The pay 11,000 all ex crew who took the job read t/c, however (inc myself) crew know that basic is low but will normally make it up with flight pay, alas this is not happening due to lack of flights short layovers etc etc. typical pay so far 1st month and 2nd months 792(during traning hence expected). 3rd month 892 just on line 4th month full month 990 all after tax and £100 used on host.

To get csm is hard as one does not know what they are really looking for, I know crew who have 10 years plus as seniors who seem not to be able to get it, and crew with no senior experience and less than 5 years no wide body experience getting csm positions, but i guess that is just down to interview on the day, but I feel BA are not looking at CV of past experience and are missing out on real experience around esp for MF

MF crew are a great bunch, so anyone wishing to join should do so, the money is an issue but this may get better.

As for me loved my time here, had a chance to follow my dream, however did not work out due to low pay at present, which i say may go up, but cannot risk it.

A for bad feelngs to be honest have not met any crew member from any fleet who has been rude or ignored me, so i feel this us and them attitude may be a myth, all personal experience of course.


All in all if its your dream to work for ba by all means go for it,just because it has not worked out for me does not mean the same for you.

In time i am sure all will get much better (pay that is).

The best of luck to all on all fleets:)

[PC767]

Sorry to here of your experience Ollie, good luck for what ever you do next. I've no bones at all to pick with MF crew,people need jobs and there are so few around, but, with the best will in the world, the concept of MF is low pay. Paying more defeats the object. This is the waterstones model Bill Francis talked of. Crew do a few seasons and move on.

I sincerely wish better for MF crew, who I have no doubt are commited hard workers, but Walsh now boasts of having the lowest employee costs and he will not want to lose that acolade. Sorry.

[tita444]

Hello,
I am new and wish to ask questions as i hope to join
how does it work when you do shorthaul exp Budapest
how many time a day do you do it?
do you come back to the UK and are able to sleep at home?
now or the longhaul if you do a LA how will be your day
will you stay there the whole day and ly back that evening?
Do you have to pay your meals while away .
Do you need to be at the Airport 2 hours beore the flight depart?
Sorry i am not from the UK and wish to know more.
Have all a good day:)

[tomkins]

PC767
unfortunatley people are leaving after a few months as the pay seems to be so bad.If things dont improve for MF crew,any benifits BA gain by paying such a low salary will be outweighed by the costs of trainning new entrants,providing them with uniforms,inconsistancies in service standards....etc....etc

[prism]

tomkins you make it sound like lots of crew are leaving MF. This is not true. In the first 5 months that is upto 31st March 2011 we lost 11. Yes 11. That turn over is to be expected and is actually alot less than was predicted. Employment outside the airline industry is hard to find and the salary on offer is competitive. I am not saying it could not be better but it is competitive. Service standards can only get better. Yes several of the routes operated by MF are at the bottom of the Customer Service levels we have seen but as crew become experianced then PRG, LAS, MRU and DEN will improve.

[tomkins]

Prism,
I am not privy to the numbers who have left New Fleet already;I am just commenting having read the posts of certain NF crew who have posted on this forum and one other forum, plus comments from friends who know crew who have started on the NF,and comments from many pilots who have flown on NF routes.All are saying that the NF experience is very successfull the only complaints being about pay and rosters.taking home around £1000 per month with living costs as high as they are,seems a no brainer to me,it is not enough to live on....as for using your perks of staff travel....you will never be able to save enough to use it.
As to being competative ,would you post some info that backs up your claim.Thanks.
As to people leaving,I would put it to you that most people don't go for a job that they passionatley want to do and give it up within a few months,most would say "I'll give it six months and hope things get better"....I hope it does for their sakes.

[Betty girl]

I have spoken to my manager about how many Mixed Fleet crew are leaving.

She said that so far it is a 3% turnover but that those figures were for up to the end of February.

She said that BA do want a high turnover but it is a surprise to many, that they have this level of turnover, in a brand new fleet that has only just started with predominantly new staff!

I think that the figure may be higher now as I recently spoke to a Mixed Fleet Future Talent crew member and she said she new of a lot that were actively looking for jobs with other airlines. I have heard that it is mostly those that thought they would be able to cope with a long commute that are leaving as it is proving very hard to do on M/F.

tita44,
You need to post your question on Cabin Crew Wannabes and read all the threads for your answers.

[Juan Tugoh]

Current turnover is up to 6%, BA are happy for it to be upto 30%. The current thinking for MF is that for most crew it will be something that they undertake for 3-4 years and then they move onto other things. Some they will expect to stay on and to make a career of being CC but that will not be the norm. What they do not want to happen is that the majority of people join and then stay on for 25 - 30 years with the associated increase in their employment costs that are caused by incremental pay increases and their attendant pensions contributions. However, MF is only projected to be 42% of all CC 10 years after it's inception and no-one will be forced to either leave of move to MF. I am not sure what the position is regarding promotion of current WW and EF CC.

[atmosphere]

Current turnover is up to 6%, BA are happy for it to be upto 30%.

30% ?

Where did you come across this information?

[prism]

That is my understanding also Juan. Existing fleets will have promotion as and when it becomes available. A severance deal could change this situation very quickly but at this moment in time the Company's hands are tied. There are many Pursers who want to go but the Company can not let people go until the Industrial situation is sorted. Clearly there are problems with the number of PSRS and we now have hundreds of pursers working down as main crew due to a shortage of main crew but a massive surplus of pursers. We are also recruiting 120 people per month to join MF till the year end.

[Juan Tugoh]

30% ?

Where did you come across this information?

Talking to managers. Perhaps I misquoted when I said BA would be "happy" with 30%, rather upto this figure would be within the planning assumptions made when MF was set up. As I said the concept of MF is not one of long term careers with their associated high costs, the model is one of high turn over and fresh faces. Ultimately the labour market will decide on what the turnover is and there will a training cost implication in a high turnover rate. This will have to be balanced against the higher costs of long term retention of MF crew. It may well be a strategy that only works in the short term while the world economy is still struggling, as the economy picks up and jobs become easier to find the turnover rate may well increase to an unsustainable level and T&Cs will improve, but at the moment BA are not concerned about the turnover rate. It is, however, early days.

By the by, I am merely reporting things that I have heard from sources that I consider to be reliable. Please do not infer or conclude that I am defending these opinions, they are not mine but just things that I have heard, also feel free to believe others if you think they have more concrete information.

[fruitbat]

Just announced...

July will be Rio and Hamburg.

August will be Phoenix.

Get out the suntan lotion....

[tomkins]

Both fab destinations.....recommend the reperbhan sorry for the spelling....its an eye opener:E.Rio is great.. make the most of it before it goes to 6 times a week in dec

[Count Niemantznarr]

I have just come back from GIG and I could not believe how expensive it has become since my last trip there over a year ago.

A four course dinner with wine was over £50, when it was half that not so long ago.

[prism]

Thats why the allowances are not disimilar to NRT Count. I was there 2 months ago and breakfast was £38. You can do it cheaper as there is a supermarket out of the hotel and to the left about 10 mins walk . You can also fill your bag with flip flops lol. Oh and please please please please dont show wealth ie leave your mobiles, watches, rings locked in the hotel safe. Its a great trip and I for one hope it swaps back soon.

[Count Niemantznarr]

Yes I know the supermarket, but it is a bit small. If you cannot afford to eat in Rio, at least the Bacardi is cheap.

[atmosphere]

Distant whispers that Accra will be joining MF!

[Smell the Coffee]

Talking to managers. Perhaps I misquoted when I said BA would be "happy" with 30%, rather upto this figure would be within the planning assumptions made when MF was set up. As I said the concept of MF is not one of long term careers with their associated high costs, the model is one of high turn over and fresh faces. Ultimately the labour market will decide on what the turnover is and there will a training cost implication in a high turnover rate. This will have to be balanced against the higher costs of long term retention of MF crew. It may well be a strategy that only works in the short term while the world economy is still struggling, as the economy picks up and jobs become easier to find the turnover rate may well increase to an unsustainable level and T&Cs will improve, but at the moment BA are not concerned about the turnover rate. It is, however, early days.

By the by, I am merely reporting things that I have heard from sources that I consider to be reliable. Please do not infer or conclude that I am defending these opinions, they are not mine but just things that I have heard, also feel free to believe others if you think they have more concrete information.

Not sure who to believe these days...the head of MF has announced a "review" of pay based on feedback from MF cabin crew ... draw your own conclusions (or guesses).

Yes I know the supermarket, but it is a bit small. If you cannot afford to eat in Rio, at least the Bacardi is cheap.

Cheaper and less hassle just to Delsey Dine. Limits the supermarket to drinks or some milk for tea. :}

[spin_doctor]

Ollie,

Working backwards from your quoted figure of £990 for a full month, with £100 on Host that gives a net monthly of £1090. A quick play with the 'annual salary calculator' lurking on the net would give you a gross annual of £15,800 (assuming no pension contributions) or around £17,000 (with pensions at 8% of salary).

Out of interest do you know what you pension contribution rate is (assuming you have any.....).

How do those figures compare to what you were led to believe prior to joining?

No agenda, just curious to know how far adrift of expectations the salary is, and how far it needs to move to get to the oft quoted 'market rate +10%'

[yaletown]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate the frankness of crew on the the new M/F flying. My only thoughts, and I am certainly not an expert in this, is that having worked for BA in the past and now working in North America, I just sort of see this as taking a North American sort of blueprint and placing it on a rostering and salary system, and I can see some problems with that. The whole single fleet somewhat works over here because crew are paid by the flight hour and fly a certain number of flight hours a month. Once we reach our flight hours, we have days off; therefore, many months some crew enjoy 12-17 days off whilst still being productive. It just seems in bidding for trips through a preferential bidding system, somehow we all for the most part get our needs met. Some North American disadvantages would be the seniority system that renders some routes unattainable by junior crews and the standby system at some airlines where one can sit on permanent standby until his/her seniority reaches a point where a schedule can be held (depending on the location, that can be years). Nevertheless, perhaps in time as Mixed Fleet evolves, conditions will naturally improve and mutually beneficial working schemes will be agreed upon. We all entered this industry for similar reasons: to travel and see the world, to have flexible working hours, and time off whilst earning a reasonable living. I wish everyone the very best at Mixed Fleet and I hope all of your dreams in aviation are realized.

[Smell the Coffee]

Thanks Yaletown, let's hope so.

[JUAN TRIPP]

Couple of interesting rumours flying around. Does MF have to pay for your bar/DF/bunk keys, and if so how much. Also are you being asked to close the doors behind you in T5 when leaving the a/c as they wont be sending ground staff down to your a/c on disembarkation. Thanks

[Smell the Coffee]

Does MF have to pay for your bar/DF/bunk keys, and if so how much.

No we don't. £0.00 for initial issue. Replacements for lost keys are chargeable, but if the bloke/lady behind the desk in CC Direct likes you - free replacements. So no change there!

Also are you being asked to close the doors behind you in T5 when leaving the a/c as they wont be sending ground staff down to your a/c on disembarkation.

True - to the extent that it's a "trial" which if "successful" will become the norm - whether it's MF-specific or potentially applicable to all fleets I don't know.

[Bengerman]

I assume here you are talking about the door at the top of the jetty....:confused:

[JUAN TRIPP]

Bengerman - ha ha yes, the door at the end of the jetty.

STC - Thanks for that. Thought as much, just the usual bitter rhetoric towards MF by some

[Smell the Coffee]

STC - Thanks for that. Thought as much, just the usual bitter rhetoric towards MF by some

No problemo.

Far from perfect as a fleet, lots to work on but let's not deal with fantasy either!

[fruitbat]

The trial concerning the door at the top of the jetty is running throughout June with MF.

It is then to be rolled out to ALL flights from July 1st.

[Count Niemantznarr]

The issue of closing the doors on the jetty is not based on the ability of anyone to be able to shut a door, it is a question of responsibility.

BA want to reduce the number of its groundstaff, so that it is left to the cabin crew to ensure all passengers have disembarked. Instead of groundstaff assisting passengers on the ground, it will be down to the cabin crew who may already have just completed an exhausting flight.

If a passenger has been left on board because he/she was in a toilet and the crew did not check properly, this would become a disciplinary issue.

Mixed Fleet crew have no choice in the matter whether they make it work or not. They do not belong to a union. They will do as they are told.

[Young Paul]

If a passenger was left on board because he/she was in the toilet and the cabin crew didn't check properly, to be quite honest, they probably deserve a disciplinary. How could a crew together be collectively that unaware of the state of their aircraft? Why should ground staff be more aware of passengers in the toilet than cabin crew?

The cabin crew job starts at the briefing table and ends at the briefing table, regardless of what happens in between - tiring flight or not. If the environment is too fatiguing, this needs to be taken up with the airline and (failing it being properly addressed there) the CAA.

MF crew, all being experienced with other airlines, are much more likely to understand their responsibilities throughout their duty than crew who have been pampered by absurd union restrictions. :E

[prism]

Whoops I have been doing it wrong for the past 18 years as a CSD by leaving the aircraft only when the last passenger has left the aircraft. The last duty onboard the aircraft for every crew member is to check their area of the cabin including toilets that it is clear of all passengers and any left handbaggage is brought to be handed to the passenger service agent who will be waiting for the all clear so he/she can then leave with any MAAS or whoever. this has certainly been the procedure during my short time of 25 years in BA.

Young Paul the cabin crew at BA do not return to Crew Report post flight at BA as once they clear customs they are free to go and catch their return flights home, busess, tube etc; last flight B747 a team of 15 cabin crew and 3 pilots only 2 lived in the UK so it was a mass run for departures.

Young Paul again you are wrong about MF being ex flyers. CSMs and Future Talent crew are ex flyers; the main crew however are mainly from none airline jobs and for many it is their first time on a aircraft.

This procedure that is being trialled is for most exactly what they have been doing for their BA careers but there will be a question about left on board handbaggage and what happens when a pax discovers at immigration they have left their passport on board or whatever as the door to the air bridge will have been closed and security will then be in charge.

[fruitbat]

You made CSD at the age of 22.... wow you must be a fast learner..

[prism]

No 28 fruitbat on the original Midfleet. A lady never gives her true age :) and Botox is a saviour LOL. I stopped ageing at 40 ;)

[Young Paul]

Prism: The point is, the job isn't over till it's over. Count's suggestion was almost that it was bad that the cabin crew should be held responsible for passengers once the doors were opened, because they might have just finished a "tiring" flight. That, IMO, betrays a disconnect between his/her idea of what the cabin crew role is and that of the rest of the industry. You agreed, in effect, with your ironic "I have being doing it wrong ..." I would suggest, with respect, that the fact that only 2/18 of a crew live in the same country as their base, is another sign of a pretty fundamental disconnection with the real world.

A fair number of bright and experienced cabin crew from my airline have joined MF, both as CSM/FT and normal crew, and I know that on the courses there were people from a good number of other airlines.

[prism]

Young Paul BA recruited in the 1990's to a spec that you didnt even get an interview unless you were fluent in at least one other european language so we therefore recruited directly in Spain, Eire, Italy, France, Netherlands etc. More than 50% of our Pax do not speak English as a first language as we are a global airline. Our language skills are constantly in use and the skill is invaluable. It is normal to have at least 4 languages spoken amongst the crew if not more. Once people have their concessions they then tend to move back to be with families and loved ones hence why we have so many thousands of cabin crew and pilots who fly in pre flights be it from Sydney Australia to JFK to Barcelona to Dublin.

You are making the mistake by believing that BA crew are not the last to leave the aircraft. In my 18 years as a CSD I can not remember a flight where I was not the last to leave the aircraft as this is a practice we have always done. As I said normally the CSD and the Pilots are last. That is and always has been our responsibility. Ill repeat it IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN CABIN CREW RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the aircraft is clear of pax and left handbaggage.

You wrote Young Paul :
MF crew, all being experienced with other airlines, are much more likely to understand their responsibilities throughout their duty than crew who have been pampered by absurd union restrictions. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif 3rd Jun 2011 10:06

This is not true only CSMs and Future Talent Crew have to have flown before and in selection we treat everyone fairly so because someone has flown before does not negate that they will be successsful. We have outstanding people coming from all walks of life and people joining us from 19 years of age to people of 58 years as main crew.

[Young Paul]

Prism: Firstly, sorry for putting something incorrect on here - I understood that it was basically experienced crew that were being recruited: I stand corrected. I'll say it again in bold: sorry. You said:the main crew however are mainly from none airline jobs and for many it is their first time on a aircraft.I guess you have the numbers to hand. What proportion are experienced crew and what proportion have no experience? IAMFI.

Secondly, if I was making a mistake about who in BA was last to leave the aircraft, it was reflective of Count's statement. I was surprised by his attitude suggesting the crew's responsibility was limited once they were on stand. He's one of your colleagues, by the sound of it, not mine. You've already implied he was incorrect - well, it was what he said that rattled my cage.

People have the right to live where they choose, and yes, airlines are better for employing native speakers of the languages of the customers they serve. However, can you not see that it's a bit of a privilege to be able to live a longhaul flight away from where you work? Especially if you are likely to get upgrades. Is this a taxable benefit? Do you do anything to offset your carbon footprint? If I work for a foreign company, I normally expect to live where I work, and at best get holidays back home - not commute. That is considered normal in the real world.

Finally, it's unbecoming to use pompous language if you don't know how to use it properly. I'm pretty sure what you meant was "the fact that somebody hasn't flown before won't prevent them from being successful." Is that correct? And just to point out, this last paragraph is not meant altogether seriously, which is why I am putting this evil smiley here ---> :E

[prism]

No problem Young Paul. I have just re read the thread and Count's statement was inaccurate and can understand why people were misled. Normal practice is for the CSD and one of the Pilots to be the last to leave the aircraft and walk with the Passenger Agent to the top of the air bridge and the door is closed behind them. This trial is being interpreted as BA reducing the need for ground staff to meet the aircraft but it isn't. A typical arrival for longhaul would see 6 or 7 WCHR's being required a couple of UM's and several MAAS; so there will always be a need for ground agents to meet the aircraft out of BA's Duty of Care to our customers.

You raise a very good point about the 'green issues' of commuting. Worldwide crew that commute in general are however part-time and have long blocks of time off after their run of trips, staying with family and friends during their working block. Perhaps 2 flights per month as opposed to 20 trips round the M25 - I dont know how that compares. Similarly many of our pilot colleagues try and consolidate their flying work into a few weeks so they can have a large chunk of time at home overseas and for many ensure it helps with child care and their wifes/partners part-time block. You can see why the 'staff travel' issue was so sensitive during the IA as people were having to pay normal ticket prices to get to and from work. I do however take your point about carbon foot printing. Upgrades are sadly a thing of the past and CSD's risk their jobs now if they do not have commercial reasons for upgrading. CSD's have the authority to upgrade for commercial / customer issues and the Captain is the only one who can authorise an upgrade outside of this.

As I said we as a Company recruited overseas to get the professional customer service language speakers most with university degrees and marketed ourselves accordingly. Naturally they want to live in their own country's where their families are. Having lived in the UK and also commuted I can honestly say I am more rested pre flight commuting in rather than having sat in traffic on the M25 for several hours.

There are also some new MF crew who are hoping to do the same once they master the bid and are eligable for staff travel.

[Young Paul]

(or 0 days off after nbo ...)

[prism]

At the end of the day you still have to have 9 Days off per month and if you place those wisely you can have higher achievement rates. I was talking to one of the senior managers about the bid and the trouble is surrounding expectation. Most people are bidding for weekends off and that simply means that more people are being disappointed. If you are quite open about destinations and go for the days off as your priority you may achieve a greater %. Yes NBO, LUD and when it comes across ACC do not negate time off there is nothing stopping you bidding for 2 days off or utilising leave days. You say you did a DEN had a day off and then did another DEN. The present Worldwide crew do two such flights without a day off called a Back to Back so we will fly to say Chicago nightstop fly back to Heathrow nightstop, fly to Montreal night stop and then back to Heathrow. Worldwide crew do that without a day off in the middle. Our pilot colleagues also create their own Back to Backs without a day off in between so that they can achieve a greater number of days off in one go later in the month.
Some people are achieving what they want with their CARMEN bids and able to commiute from far afield.

[Count Niemantznarr]

You must be a very experienced CSD Prism. You seem to know so much.

However you do not know apparently how many cabin crew there are on a BA 747. It is 14 not 15 as per your post....

"flight B747 a team of 15 cabin crew and 3 pilots only 2 lived in the UK so it was a mass run for departures".


Also Prism, MF crews may be able to commute if they get enough days off, but not inbetween every trip as current WW crew can do. What good is that? Where do MF crew go for the nights inbetween trips?

It is also NOT normal practice for the CSD and one of the pilots to be the last off. Frequently we Flight Crew disembark WITH the passengers. CSD's usually lead their crews off the plane and do not hang around.

[prism]

Correct count. Those days have now long gone. It was a typo. The point was that only 2 lived in the UK.

Count it is custom and practice for most CSD's to leave the aircraft last with the pilots. Usually we are collecting the hours data to complete the duty record form and overtime sheet if necessary. Once the aircraft is confirmed clear of customers then it is our job as CSD's to confirm to the Captain that the aircraft is clear.

In between trips some commuters stay at the guest houses around the airport and there is nothing stopping any crew member be they eurofleet, mixed fleet or worlwide to stop them booking. MF crew have 9 days to place where they will in their bid.

This thread is however supposed to be about seeing how MF crew are getting on on the fleet. Clearly one of the big issues is 'BIDDING'.

[Betty girl]

Lets hear about it from Mixed Fleet crew then not people from other fleets!!

The only person posting on hear that actually knows what it is like is Maudie!

Lets listen to what actual M/F crew have to say and not patronise them by saying they don't know how to bid, especially two people that don't bid and who both work on Worldwide, one who says they are a pilot! and one that says they are a CSD. No cabin crew bid on Worldwide.

I have had a look at how Maudie bid last month and it was a well constructed bid. There are many crew on Mixed Fleet that have had unsuccessful bids and this happens on E/F too, some months you get everything you ask for and other months are not so good, even though the bid was identical. This I think is because we all move around the bid system but we are unaware of whether we are at the top or the bottom of the pile!!

Hopefully Maudie you will get some more successful bids in the future.

Good luck.

[GardenofEden]

:) £600 and 3 or 4 days off after does make the strain easier though, doesn't it?????xxx;)

[Smell the Coffee]

At the end of the day you still have to have 9 Days off per month and if you place those wisely you can have higher achievement rates. I was talking to one of the senior managers about the bid and the trouble is surrounding expectation. Most people are bidding for weekends off and that simply means that more people are being disappointed. If you are quite open about destinations and go for the days off as your priority you may achieve a greater %.

I'd pretty much agree with you here.

there is nothing stopping you bidding for 2 days off or utilising leave days.

Agree with the 1st part of this; leave days however, are completely separate to days off in my book. Days off should be rostered after ANY longhaul shift (something that doesn't happen on MF) for rest purposes. Leave days are there to be used for holidays, moving house etc. Leave days should not be counted by the Company as a form of 'rest' after a trip. Unfortunately on MF they are. :=

The present Worldwide crew do two such flights without a day off called a Back to Back so we will fly to say Chicago nightstop fly back to Heathrow nightstop, fly to Montreal night stop and then back to Heathrow. Worldwide crew do that without a day off in the middle.

Is this really a fair comparison? Yes, back to backs were tiring (I did many in my time on Worldwide), but the vast majority of flights were shorter, east coast destinations. Denver is that bit further, with greater time differences. Besides, you received 3 MBTs (days off) after any and every US flight, including b2bs.

At the end of the day, you have to remember that Scheduling construct MF rosters primarily based on scheme, not industrial agreements.

The basic thing to remember about MF though, is that its main purpose was to cut costs dramatically. This it has done, and is doing; but it has come at a cost...

[brighton_rocks]

Hi i'm mixed fleet crew and I don't seem to have a problem with the bidding system. What I do is literally bid for sectors / days in trip and mark that has highest priority. I only make 1 bid and make it a recurring bid and so far my roster has been pretty nice to me (may be lucky LOL) but my roster works out pretty much, 4 days on, 2 off, 3 days on 1 off, few standby's thrown in.
After SAN & ATL I have 2 days off rostered.

What I have found with my colleagues, if they make there bids too specific, the majority of them don't get what they bid for.

In regard you Young Paul's question, On my course there were 9 ex flyers including myself (3 BA Worldwide), Emirates, Qatar, Gulf, Thomson, Ryanair & Easyjet and 9 non flyers which included a bank manager, mortgage advisor, Check in Supervisor ect ect and 2 of us have been trainers previously, Online I've found the mix is probably about the same.

Hope that makes sense,
Have a great day

BR

[747girl]

Hi... can anyone tell me if and when the salary review is going to be announced regarding the Mixed Fleet. It had been reported that a review into salaries and lifestyles(rosters), was being researched these past few weeks. Anyway, it has all gone very quiet... does anyone know anything? I cant help but think the MF Cabin Crew are hanging on with bated breath for news.
Thanks a mill...

[brighton_rocks]

There was a message out about 5 weeks ago, stating that an external source was reviewing to see if MF rates are indeed market rate + 10% and will be a few more weeks till this is released. IF they are found to be below market rate then any pay increase would be back dated to April 11. An day off has been added after a Vegas, due to crew feedback, but I have no knowledge of rostering being looked at. Hope that helps :)

[ottergirl]

Hi everyone
Just thought I should take a moment to explain how Carmen works and why you don't always achieve the same results even though you bid for the same things. Once Carmen starts running through the bid it looks at everyones bid and then makes lots of different bid runs based on your preference. Lets say for example that it runs 20 times, all of those rosters would contain some element of your preference but at the end it has to select the run that gets everyone closest to the target (Eurofleet is 65%, don't know about MF). So, even though bid run 5 may contain your dream roster, it may decide on run 11 because that has the best overall spread for everyone on the fleet. The more things you bid for, the bigger the variation possible in the bid runs and conversely if you only make one bid, then all the bid runs would have to contain that request. So if one day off is really important, then just bid for that one and leave the others to chance! If one destination is important, then only ask for that one! Ask for 5 trips and be prepared to get any 3 of them (but it may be the bottom 3). Hope that explains the system. It's not great but it is better than nothing in terms of having some control of your life! Happy to help with individual queries if you want to pm me!
Happy bidding
Ottergirl

[Betty girl]

But be careful because if you only bid for one thing and it is something very popular! and you end up not getting it; because the computer can't see any other preferences, you could end up with lots of things that you wouldn't want.

I always put a few very low points generic choices at the bottom of my bid, so that if I have been unsuccessful with my main preferences, there are at least a few things that the computer can see that I wouldn't mind, i.e. 50 points any three day 2 sector trips and 10 points for any 3 day 2-8 sector trips, as a kind of an insurance policy!

My advice would be to make sure there is a large gap between your most wanted trips with a bid of 200 each, and then some second choices, of say 50 or even just 10 points. Also if you want a variety of different destinations, make sure you put 1 in the frequency box. So for example you could put in three or four trips, asking for each just once and give them all 200 points. Then make sure that you bid for your days off in groups of two, spread evenly across the month. That way you wont end up doing a tiring group of trips with just one day off after it.

If you bid for things in a way that makes it easier for the computer to roster you, then your bids will be more successful.

The trouble is that we all bid differently and you could ask ten different people how to bid and they will all say different things. Some crew put in very simple bids with just generic choices of trip length and sectors and some put in very detailed bids that are pages long. It is just up to you to try out different ways and see what is successful for you.

Hope that helps some of you.

[Betty girl]

Hear that you have all got a pay rise and that the Future Talent role has been improved.
Hope it is good for you all.
BG

[Young Paul]

With regard to money, initial reactions were generally "too little". The stated aim of the company is market rate plus 10%: at the moment, even with rise, people feel (rightly or wrongly - though my contacts have a lot of friends throughout the industry) that it's nearer market rate minus 10%. The company was slow to act (they started talking about an announcement about this in March, I believe) and rumours had gained ground that the settlement was going to be substantially more, so people's initial reaction was disappointed, unless (basically) they are living in accommodation paid for by someone else within reach of LHR.

[Smell the Coffee]

YP is essentially correct, the reactions I have observed are ones of disappointment with the level of the raise (to be fair, one could also argue that the expectations were perhaps a little fanciful given Mixed Fleet's raison d'etre, which has little to do with customer service and a lot to do with making huge savings).

On another note, Mixed Fleet crew recently operated a flight to Japan with no bunks. It was legal (crew rest can be taken on suitable reclining seats). Despite protestations from the operating CSM and Captain, the crew were basically told "tough".

It's not hard to see why some MF crew are becoming a little disillusioned with pay, and the Company's attitude/treatment of said crew.

[Betty girl]

Smell the coffee,

That is quite shocking!

Are you still enjoying it?

I have read the recent improvement in the FTC passage to CSM and feel that in the future, again, some will end up being let down a bit.

It now sets out a clear path to CSM in a year and basically says that if you follow the process and are happy, you will automatically get CSM in one year. It goes on to invite more crew from ALL fleets, WW, E/F, SFG and M/F to apply.

Unless BA have been lying to everyone about how fast Mixed Fleet will grow, not every FTC crew member will be able to be promoted within a year. Maybe the first batch but ALL future FTC!! It does at the very end mention that CSM positions need to be available but by mentioning the one year target, I feel they will be letting down a lot of people that take up this chance or they are going to expand faster than they have previously said! but whatever happens, eventually some FTC will end up waiting a lot longer than a year!

There must be two or three FTC for every CSM that are currently flying, so to give just, all of the current FTC, CSM, the fleet would need to grow 3x or 4x the size it is now! and for more to be invited to get FTC with the promise of a year target to CSM, the fleet would then need to grow to over 12 x or more, what it currently is!! The maths just don't add up, if that target of a year is to be believed!

[blue____]

Accra and Vienna from october!!!

Bring more on!

[2ndbreak]

Heard Man and Ams are coming back to mainline due to issues with finishing the service on these very short sectors...
Anyone clarify?

[ottergirl]

Whenever I hand over, or take-over, from one of those flights, the Mixed fleet crew have at least one, if not two, crew members more than us so it's hard to believe that they are not completing the service. Their crewing level is more akin to our old matrix at present so with all the experienced flyers (albeit from other carriers) there should be no problems whatsoever.

Seriously sad to say goodbye to VIE, a real gem of a city with the best hotel on the short-haul network.

[elldee]

I have done a ton of MAN and AMS flights since we got them and never not completed a service, I’m not saying it hasn’t been a challenge some sectors (especially if crew haven’t done them before) but we’ve always completed them.
There might have been cases of service being completed but surely this used to happen on EF occasionally as well due to a number of factors?

[elldee]

ottergirl

I find it really sad that we have taken so many nice routes from EF. I know we have taken some from WW but I dont think they miss LAS or LAD very much :p

I wish there was some way for us to have been intergrated (with out starting a huge debate).

[ottergirl]

Thanks elldee,

Have you seen this debate on Flyertalk about MF, not all bad but there is some useful feedback for you to share in the briefing room.

Terrible F experience... - FlyerTalk Forums (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1233087-terrible-f-experience.html)

Ultimately we all work for the same great company so we all want it to succeed. Happy flying.

[elldee]

ottergirl

Sadly, these comments do not suprise me. I've said it once and ill say it again. We should not be First trained on our initital course. We should gain 6-12 months experience and then be First trained.

[Betty girl]

I don't think M/F are over crewed anymore because they were actually short of crew last month and this month and some E/F crew have been used off standby to operate, as a whole crew, a Prague and Amsterdam flight for them due to the shortages. They were initially going out with extra crew and quite often new CSMs have to have a supernumerary flight and then they have two CSMs.

We E/F and WW are on the other hand over-manned and sitting at home doing non ops far too much!

I have been told by a number of E/F Airbus Captains that the service on the Manchester and Amsterdam are often not completed. One pilot told me that the CSM tried to ask him not to land. One aircraft apparently landed with the tray tables down and these stories have been told to me by pilots that were on the flights. Elldee, on E/F we always complete the service!

That link to Flyertalk is a bit worrying. It is of course not the fault of the Mixed Fleet crew, who are doing their best with little training! After all it takes quite a number of years to get to be First trained on WW or SFG and this really is the result of a real rush. I think it is a great shame that M/F crews could not have been integrated into our fleets.

I would like to think it can only get better but with the pace of recruitment, I don't think that will be the case, more and more new entrants are coming on line and they are being trained by people that themselves have only just joined! You couldn't make it up!!

But of course it is not the M/F crews fault at all.

[elldee]

When you get crew in F or J that know what they are doing, its FANTASTIC for us and the customers. When you are training new guys its hard but not their fault and you can see they are enthusiastic. When you get crew that are not interested in working in the premium cabins and are only there because all the other positions are gone, you have problems.

Couldn't agree more crew looking for segregation. I think the hats have made it awful as well. We should be looking to our EF and WW crew for inspiration and guidance, not trying to better them or see ourselves as something superior. Because quite simply were not!

I think MF should get some 'First Champions' like they have with uniform etc. That way they could establish the folk that have First experience from either BA, other airlines ,top restaurants - some even have VIP and private experience on MF. Most of these guys LOVE to work in First and prefer it there to any other cabin. Why could we not have them working in First (if they chose to) semi-permanently and coach say one person at a time per flight to learn how to do things properly (a BA brand behaviour) so this kind of feedback doesn’t get written again?

[Betty girl]

I think you are both right.

I have all along been saying that this, them and us thing, that has been totally created by management, is unhelpful. The hats just high-lighting it!

Yes there are a few union nutters that will, I am sure, put their 10 pence worth in but they are few and far between. The vast majority of crew, on all four fleets, are dedicated to giving good customer service.

I feel very, very sad to read that thread, and of course you do from time to time get WW or E/F crew that are lack luster too, but this problem has actually been created by BA management not actually understanding that, being a great cabin crew member, actually requires experience and wont just happen because you say someone is elite, when they clearly are just normal crew, that need some good leadership from people that actually know what they are doing!!!

You can't just call a group of brand new crew 'elite', 'outstanding' 'the future' and then think that they magically can be without having any guidance from crew, who are actually outstanding; and on all fleets there are crew that BA should be proud of and it's a crying shame that good people are being made to feel that BA is no longer interested in them. It's a crying shame.

[elldee]

Betty girl

You hit the nail on the head. :ugh:

[Betty girl]

I think that might just be a rumour about Man and Amsterdam but I have heard that E/F have done some M/F work, due to crew shortages on M/F.

I had heard that it was because the Haneda got reinstated earlier than BA had thought and so it left them a bit short of crew.

Who knows, BA is so keen on M/F being shown as a complete success that it is hard to find out the truth about anything!

CSMs are so keen to be better than other CSMs, that they are not telling BA about things that go wrong, so BA are really unaware of the mess that is going on on some of the flights. Having said that though many of the crew are great and all are keen, just many are very inexperienced!!

[FR-]

I started reading this forum as I was looking to move from a low cost airline to BA. I have wanted to fly for BA since I was a kid, but looking at the pay and the way you are treated I will stop where I am and get paid more for it. Im shocked to be honest, good luck to all of you and i hope the pay gets better.

fr-

[Betty girl]

To be fair FR- the money has recently improved and the basics have gone up by 1000- per year and the quarterly bonus, for good attendance and customer survey scores, has been increased to £450 per quarter and the hourly rate has gone up to 2.60 per hour since this thread started.

If you were wanting to move up through promotion quickly, now would be the time to join; but having said that it is more like a brand new airline with nearly all the staff being new, not like the BA I know!!

It depends what you want. If you want to work for BA and see some of the world, this would be a good choice but if you want to earn loads of money, maybe not.

[atmosphere]

I started reading this forum as I was looking to move from a low cost airline to BA. I have wanted to fly for BA since I was a kid, but looking at the pay and the way you are treated I will stop where I am and get paid more for it. Im shocked to be honest, good luck to all of you and i hope the pay gets better

Since I started M/F I can honestly say that it is a good place to be, and having worked in the LowCost market myself, I do not regret the move, It did take some time to settle in, and there is a lot, and still a lot to learn, but it's the people that make an airline, and MF has a really good bunch of crew who are determined to make MF a success.

The only negativity I hear is about money and rosters, and by the look of it, it's something that BA are aware of, and have already started to change.

Having flown for various airlines for many years I can say BA is a good place to be right now!

Atmosphere!

[Airbusbellboy]

Folks is the 2.60 per hour paid around the clock when you are downroute in lieu of getting an allowance at hotel?

[Betty girl]

Yes, from check-in to clear at the end of the trip.

[Betty girl]

I think you would find it very hard to commute from Cornwall.

It would be possible but there would be many times that you would need to stay with friends close to Heathrow or get a B&B.

Your roster would be a mix of short-haul and long-haul and you are required to do standbys where you need to be able to get to the airport in about two hours.

Some longhaul trips only trigger one day off after and some shorthaul trips would require you to be back in at work just 12.30 hours later, worst scenario but possible!

It wouldn't be possible to avoid some short-haul work and some days are very long and tiring; I really don't think that it would be safe to drive that far.

If you really want the job, I think you would have to consider moving up and sharing a house with some of your training course but you could give it a go, rather you than me though.

Good luck.

[golden_oldie_surfer]

I live in cornwall but am lucky to have my little sister living in west london with a spare room.....if you have a family at home in cornwall it's not going to be easy....but if you want to make it work, I'm sure you'll find a way.....one life....live it.....

[blue____]

Chicago (x2 daily), Lisbon and Paris Orly from November..
AMS and ATL back to old fleets

[brit bus driver]

Please, stick with it! From a driver's perspective, you are a breath of fresh air and make the job far easier as there's no need for treading on egg-shells for fear of offending someone's sensibilities. There are fantastic cabin crew on both sides of the fence, but at least we know(?), or at least feel, that MF do not hold a grudge against the company or the pilots for keeping the company going.

[Chris25]

Hi Guys,

To eat in Rio depend on the time, if is not too late in the evening ask at the reception (hotel) where you can find a Self-Service Restaurant. The food is always delicious and you can eat as much as you want, whatever you want and its cheap, but you will pay separate for drinks and dessert.

Enjoy it.

[blue____]

Is this a specific restaurant you are talking about or is it plenty of such "self service" restaurants? If yes do you know the name? Does it serve local dishes as some of us are not into beans on toast while in brazil.. :) thanks for the info

[Chris25]

I do not know any names, but if you ask at the reception they can tell you or maybe show the nearest one. They serve all kinds of Local/Brazilian Food.

There will be Plenty of: Meat with/without Sauce, Fried/Roasted Steak, Fried/Roasted/Sauce Chicken, The famous Mandioca/cassava (fried or boiled).
You may find: barbecue (meat, chicken & pork), fish, plain/mayonnaise salad.

Including the main and unmissable dishes that you will always find in a Brazilian Restaurant/House, that is: Rice, Beans and plenty of Salad; you just need to choose what you want to add to it such as Meat, Fish or Chicken, etc...

You just pay one price and you can eat as much as you want. They sometimes are called Self Service as we say in English.

Do not Judge the Restaurant for its Cover/Front, sometimes they are simple but the food is delicious.

You can go inside and get near to the food area and look at it before deciding to stay and eat.

Rio is a Great and Beautiful City.

I think this is one way of eating properly and its not expensive.

[skys the limit]

Hi I have just been given an offer of employment from BA for Mixed Fleet cabin crew. I am trying to organize child care and just wondered if I take the position do you know if this is the possibility of working part time down the road.

[skys the limit]

Hi there. I have just recieved my offer of employment as Cabin Crew for Mixed Fleet with BA. I am wondering how many nights you are away over night in a week. I am interviewing people for child care but haven't got a feel for how many nights I will be away. Could you give me an idea.
Many Thanks. Skys the limit

[atmosphere]

Hi there. I have just recieved my offer of employment as Cabin Crew for Mixed Fleet with BA. I am wondering how many nights you are away over night in a week. I am interviewing people for child care but haven't got a feel for how many nights I will be away. Could you give me an idea.
Many Thanks. Skys the limit

It all depends, if you are FTC then a lot, as you tend to do more long haul flying.

However as cabin crew, depending how you bid, you could be away 3/4 or none

Trips are usually 3 days/2 nights or 5 days/4 nights. But if you bid for all short haul there and backs you wont be away at all, as long as you get what you ask for.

Hope this helps.

[Smell the Coffee]

No chance of part time in the immediate future.

MF are currently short of crew.

[Betty girl]

I think it might be quite hard to do Mixed Fleet with small children! I hope you have a supportive partner or close Grand parents to help as well as help with child care. Good luck.

[emyllou]

Hello there,

I was about to apply for the Mixed Fleet recruitment, but something occured to me. I live in Oslo. I know that to be a long-haul cabin crew this is isnt such a problem (well not for Air France anyway) as I can reach the base in time before the flight. But if I am not mistaking, mixed fleet is not so predictable and by reading all your posts, you sometimes only have one day off between two flights.

Do you think it would be feasible for me to live in Oslo and work for BA? I am aware that I will have sometimes to stay in England as one day off would not allow me to go home, but would this occur often?

thank you :-)

[Betty girl]

It would be very hard. You would have to spend a great deal of the month near Heathrow and would therefore need accommodation in the UK. Mixed Fleet do a mixture of longhaul and shorthaul and standby duties which would make it impossible to live in Oslo.

You could maybe return for some days off a month but realistically it would be hard to actually live in Oslo.

[rowone]

i believe its because of 767 availability...never heard of a service issue..hope that helps

[chipmunkj]

For those aspiring future crew with children, who want part time (like Skys the limit),it might be worth looking at this link:-

Who can request flexible working? : Directgov - Employment (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Flexibleworking/DG_10029491)

You have a legal right to request flexible working after a period of work.
Your union can help you with all the paper work so that you can present a good case.

Best of luck !

[malcolmf]

However from the same site:
Under the law your employer must seriously consider an application you make, and only reject it if there are good business reasons for doing so. You have the right to ask for flexible working - not the right to have it. Employers can reasonably decline your application where there is a legitimate business ground.

[chipmunkj]

If you enter into further research you will also discover that over 95% of applications for Right to Request are accepted and actioned.
It is also worth remembering that Right to Request is not just about "women and child care", but also about anyone (male or female) who has a "care" responsibility.

[nick14]

I am sad to say that the contract and associated T's and C's are getting eroded just like the low cost market.

The advertised market rate +10% is in reality market rate -10%, you would be better off in a charter or low cost company per month. The rosters are harder than charter due to time zone shifts along with commuting (unless you live in london on £1200/month) and back to back trips or trips followed by european return flights. The most recent cost saving is cutting back on crew food, so you have to feed yourself. Ryanair did that.

The most frustrating thing is the fact that they have been designing rosters, contracts and working conditions for years, so why are there so many problems arising with MF? Why is 30% of the fleet on sick leave due fatigue or grounded because they are out of hours? Why are people leaving to go back to old jobs or leaving to get out of flying? Why are there so many CHIRP reports being filled?

Go in with your eyes open people!

[Hand Solo]

No crew food provided on board? 30% of crew grounded due fatigue or out of hours?

Well that's two blatant examples of BS I've spotted. Got an agenda have we Nick?

[nick14]

No agenda im afriad,

There was a memo recently about taking crew food off certain flights, and a manager has told me that 30% of the fleet have been off sick recently.

Just telling you what I have been told.

[Hand Solo]

OK well I think you need to verify your information before posting it as gospel truth. The notice about crew food is a change to crew food, not it's removal. The 30% off sick/grounded fable started with BASSA months ago and is an urban tale. The actual figures for sickness are no worse than existing cabin crew fleets and the crew turnover rates for Mixed Fleet are well below BAs target. I expect the rest of the information in your post has come from equally unreliable sources.

[atmosphere]

Nick14, Having worked in Both the Charter, and LoCo market i can assure you, and anyone else reading this, that the roster is NOT more demanding.

Perhaps people put themselves in a more demanding position, i.e people who commute, but then that is down to personal choice and not BA screwing them on the roster.

30% of crew off with fatigue, would equate to over 300 crew off tired, I can assure you the CAA would of shut us down by now, and as for the
"no crew food" they have just signed a deal for extra Club meals and trays to be loaded for all operating crew instead of crew food trays and hots, which for me is a winner!

Any other aspect of BA you would like to falsely Nick?

[fincastle84]

I believe that this is a mixed fleet route. It must be, the ladies working in Club were much younger than I'm used to on BA!

They provided fantastic, friendly service & gave us a perfect conclusion to our 3 week vacation in the American west.:ok:

In fact Mrs Fin & I agree that this was our best ever flight with BA. Thank you ladies & keep up the good work. I've already completed my thank you's on the BA website.

[Young Paul]

There are aspects of the rostering which are considerably worse than locos. Having watched a friend's roster for most of the year, the standard pattern does seem to be only two days off in a block (though quite often with early finishes on the last day following night flights). The objective of Carmen is bid satisfaction, supposedly, and bids don't seem to reach the levels of satisfaction that are claimed for Carmen on the whole across the company - which are supposedly 60% - my friend seems to end up with only one of the low-priority bids only being granted each month. He came from a low cost shorthaul airline where he was working on a fixed pattern with a minimum of three days off in a row

Also, his hours have been run through relatively quickly - a lot of US trips, the lack of "bid satisfaction" meaning that the low-hours-density-longhaul trips (Mauritius, Tokyo, Rio) weren't given, resulting in a very light roster now (three trips in a month). Uncharacteristically, this has given extra days off, which is a treat!

There are other aspects of the job which would be relatively easy to improve, but which BA seems to have little interest in doing so, it being mixed fleet rather than WW. For example, free breakfast in hotels, free wifi in hotels, the ability to put crew bags in the hold on shorthaul days...

[vctenderness]

There are other aspects of the job which would be relatively easy to improve, but which BA seems to have little interest in doing so, it being mixed fleet rather than WW. For example, free breakfast in hotels, free wifi in hotels, the ability to put crew bags in the hold on shorthaul days...

There is, unfortunately, no such things as a free breakfast!

When BA negotiates contracts for accommodation these kind of things are taken into consideration. If the hotel offers free breakfast to all guests it would be possible to include that for crews.

However most dont and they would increase the rate per room to cover the breakfast and therefore increase the cost to BA.

Same thing goes for free wifi if the hotel has free wifi then the crew get it as well, sometimes BA negotiates a limited amount of free time into the room rate.

Shorthaul crew, to my knowledge, have never put bags in the hold including pilots so no difference for MF.

[ottergirl]

There are other aspects of the job which would be relatively easy to improve, but which BA seems to have little interest in doing so, it being mixed fleet rather than WW. For example, free breakfast in hotels, free wifi in hotels, the ability to put crew bags in the hold on shorthaul days...


I don't think thats very fair. BA's interest or perceived lack of has nothing to do with which fleet is involved. WW don't get free breakfast or free WiFi and, on Eurofleet we have been asking to put bags in the hold since the liquids restriction and been told that we don't have the infrastructure. I imagine that LGW have similar frustrations too! MF are not being 'picked on', thats just the way it is!

[Young Paul]

I understand that WW don't get a flat £2.60 per hour to pay for everything on the trip plus compensate for a low basic salary, when breakfast in some hotels is 20 euros, though my friend may be labouring under a misapprehension. Similarly wifi - if you can pay your mobile phone bill without worrying about an extra £30 on it for roaming charges, why would you care about wifi in the hotel?

Allowing bags in the hold would improve lifestyle for all crew. If the CAA required it, a solution would be found.

Any hotel will negotiate a price for a group of guests to have anything included in the rate - free wifi, breakfast included, a wake-up call from a strippagram, whatever. BA isn't paying the rack rate for the rooms, and no hotel would expect to charge a corporate client who was booking 10+ rooms per day the rack rate. BA hotac department knows that and the hotels know that. Many airlines with lower status and fewer rooms booked per night manage to sort out breakfast and wifi as part of room rates; it's within BA's power, if it has the will.

What I meant about "mixed fleet rather than WW" is not that other fleets necessarily get those things. It's just that WW have had the clout for their concerns to be dealt with, whereas those of MF don't show up on the horizon. In any case, these are aspects of what it is like to work for MF (compared to other airlines where such things may be sorted out) which people reading this thread might find it useful to know before they arrive.

[Young Paul]

(The significance of "no bags in hold", for those who didn't pick it up, is that the amount of liquid you can take on a shorthaul trip is limited to one of those sealable clear plastic bags, with no container having more than 100 ml .....)

[Thunderbug]

Young Paul

I think you have been misled....

The £/per hour is not to compensate for low pay. It is the way the allowance system works for MF and for all flight crew. It replaces the destination based fixed meal payment that is used in WW & EF. It does means that the same rate is earned irrespective of the destination.

No fleet (LGW excepted (i think...)) gets free breakfast. The company will take it, if the hotel offers it for free, but will not pay for it as crews are paid allowances to pay for their meals. Wifi is similar, but may change with the current focus on the iPad trial. I don't believe that the perceived "clout" of WW has achieved any actual tangible benefits over other fleets.

On shorthaul neither cabin crew or flight crew bags are loaded in the holds at LHR. It is done at LGW on the 737s, but LHR is just not geared up for it especially with the frequent changes of aircraft & crews on every turnround at LHR. Totally agree that this does restrict the amount of liquids you can take on a tour - and that is a complete pain!
T'bug :ok:

[Young Paul]

... so to summarise, bear in mind that if you go to BA now, your basic salary is low (as in, you will probably struggle to live on it, it is not "market rate + 10%"); from your allowances, you will need to fund all subsistence away from base; if you are travelling around Europe for several nights, you will need to be quite ingenious to take your toiletry supplies. These are things you may not otherwise have considered.

Is there anything that would stop the crew carrying overnight cases to the forward hold and collecting them when they get off the aeroplane? Which I understand happens each time they rotate through LHR? Or are there rules which means that this would cost the airline to load and unload the cases?

What is a "free" breakfast? My previous airline were skinflints - but all UK hotels were on a B+B basis, and if we didn't get B+B on the continent, we got crew breakfasts. Seriously, if a company is saying they will book 10 rooms per night (or longhaul? 18 rooms per day?), and they have ANY competence in negotiation, most hotels would happily include breakfast in the rate. Or was BA keen to shave the last £1 per room off and leave the crew to bear a higher cost because "their allowances cover it"? Most hotels do buffets these days anyway, with lots of the food being chucked away at 10am.

The £/hr isn't just a subsistence allowance - or it would be exempt from tax. It is a productivity payment.

[Thunderbug]

Young Paul

I don't understand what you are trying to achieve with your argument except a bit of trolling......

so to summarise, bear in mind that if you go to BA now, your basic salary is low (as in, you will probably struggle to live on it, it is not "market rate + 10%"); The rates are available and published. People can make their own decisions. With unemployment rates as they are and the outlook not looking good for some operators; some folk will be happy to get any reasonable job. Sure it now pays less than EF & WW, but there are (several) much longer threads regarding that issue, so I won't repeat.

from your allowances, you will need to fund all subsistence away from base As do all Cabin & Flight Crew at LHR.

if you are travelling around Europe for several nights, you will need to be quite ingenious to take your toiletry supplies. As do 1000 MF, 2000 (?) EF & 1200 shorthaul pilots. It is amazing what people can squeeze into those little bags......

As for hold bags - why complicate matters for the sake of a bigger tube of toothpaste? T5 is almost exclusively container loaded bags. There is a "bulk" hold on all the shorthaul aircraft, but on the A319 accessed only once the containers are removed. The A319 can have a 35 min turnround, we are not particularly good at passenger items such as buggies & wheelchairs, so playing with crew bags will just be a mess. Crew bags would certainly be a low priority. Even on long haul some crew don't trust the baggage system and will take their bags on as cabin baggage.

Or was BA keen to shave the last £1 per room off It is BA, so emmmm... Yes! Always :}

The £/hr isn't just a subsistence allowance. It is a productivity payment Yes & No. The Tax man is not stupid and applies different rates to the allowances of MF, EF, WW, & Flight crew that recognise the different proportion of the allowances that each group earn v. spend.

Come on Paul. Not sure of you agenda. I'm not not advocating MF as good or bad. I just want the facts that are published to be accurate so that people can make a valid decision. There is no need to spread falsehoods.

[Betty girl]

I don't think it is fair to have a go at Young Paul for pointing out some things that obviously upset his friend.

The lack of a breakfast allowance is bound to upset M/F crew as at LGW, the crew there, who are also on an hourly rate, do receive it at some destinations and as mentioned by Young Paul, many low cost airlines provide breakfast to their crews when night stopping and this is what he is comparing things with. However I think that the new revised M/F pay scales are higher that those at LGW. The LGW crew do however do longer trips though and therefore clock up higher allowances in general but don't receive the quarterly bonus that M/F crew can benefit from if they hit their targets..

One of the problems you get when salaries are low and crew rely on other payments to make up their wages (and this is the same for all the fleets) is that your end wage is very dependant on the type of roster you achieve! Some M/F crew are probably taking home an ok wage some months but in other months when they don't achieve such a good roster, I expect the money can be tight. This also happens on WW and E/F but as our basic salaries are often higher it is not so critical, however those E/F and WW crew on post 97 contracts can also suffer from low wages if they do not get a good roster or have a lot of leave but the situation is probably more critical on M/F. Of course as mentioned by many on here, there are other people on the aircraft also receiving an hourly rate but of course they have the benefit of a very high basic salary and unlike cabin crew are not reliant on bringing some of these allowances home, so some sympathy for Young Paul's observations would not go amiss.

When we had the 737 at LHR, we were allowed to hold load our bags but that is because it is a bulk loaded aircraft and does not have containers and it was also prior to the liquid restrictions. Even if the Airbus and the 767 were bulk loaded, which they are not, it would not be feasible for BA to organise for us to check our bags in at the long haul crew check-in area and have the extra costs of loading our bags, like they do for crew on long haul flights. As we take our bags to the aircraft we have to go through security, so even if we could load them in the hold, we would still not be allowed extra liquids!!
I personally have not found it a problem as you can buy small bottles of most products nowadays.

It is sad that M/F crew have these, often, tiring rosters but that is why BA set this fleet up, to save them money. I personally have said all along that the wages were too low and I was glad when they were raised.

I do however think that you have a right to say how you see it without being accused of being a troll. That is after all what this thread was set up for, so thank you for explaining how it is for your friend.

[Young Paul]

To be fair, my friend is immensely proud of BA - working for them has been a very longterm ambition - and I bear them absolutely no ill will. I just would like them to care for their staff so that they want to stay and can afford to!

Oh, and another 2" seat pitch in World Traveller would be very nice, too. It's actually more comfortable on the charter airlines now.... but that's off topic.

[easyflyer83]

I'm Easyjet and as ex GB I remember having the pride of flying the BA flag aswell as being part of the 'family' that was GB. I can therefore understand why many MF crew are incredibly proud to fly for BA but with that comes a lot defensiveness when posters question the MF contract. Let's not beat about the bush, it's not a great contract. It seems that BA have gone from one extreme to the other and the result being that MF is now amongst the worst for real take home pay.

That said, many crew aim to fly for BA and VS and wouldn't dream of flying for a low cost. The former has plenty of glamour (if only it is perceived glamour), nightstops for those that want that and the opportunity to offer 'fancy' service in premium cabins. There isn't anything wrong with that and if people deem that as being more important than monetary reward then that is their decision. However, in recent months MF has lost crew going back to their original carriers because of the lack of money.

As senior crew on a low cost carrier I now wish I had done long haul before joining GB as it is something I now want to do. However, the money is more important to me and I live in Manchester and own my own home so MF is out of the question completely.

It's an individuals decision which fair enough but at the same time it is no point them shooting others down for commenting on the less negative side.