Infinte Type Rated Pilots it seems!!

[bokboy22]

Has anybody in the know, ie employed in an airline or corporate jet company heard from their bosses that the type rated pilots tree is turning bare.

Im relatively experienced with 2600 TT including 1600 King Air turbine time in there but as Im not Boeing, Airbus or say Gulfstream type rated, nobody will give me the time of day in Europe.

It seems if you shake a tree, shed loads of type rated pilots fall out, including the low time 200 hour guy who buys his way in. When will we be returning to normality with regards to looking at experience when hiring? :ugh:

[Ercos]

In the corporate atmosphere in the US there seems to be an endless supply of people either willing to buy a type rating or already has one. I find Gulfstream pilots are a nickle for two dozen and other entry-level jet aircraft (Citations and Lears) face similar problems.

The issue is now that employers have become use to not having to invest in an initial course for their crews they won't settle for anything less. "Back in the day", around 2005/2006, the company's would risk $15,000 to $50,000 depending on the aircraft to type rate new pilots. Now they just demand employees come with a rating and I can tell you from experience up until two weeks ago resumes still come in with semi-current pilots.

Until the FAA implements, very slowly implements, new training standards for non-airline entities you'll see "come typed and current" on most corporate and charter jobs.

[Gafanhoto]

sorry but probably you're looking for work only inside U.K and for a really specific job in a major airline... If i had your 2600TT king air FOR SURE, i wouldn't be unemployed... there are many job offers in turbo props around europe, just seek better for them.

[bokboy22]

Trust me, I have sent emails, cv's everywhere. I have flown in Africa, Australia, US and converted to JAA, companies are just not interested unless you are type rated on jet aircraft.

Friends flying in the industry here have all told me, their companies only look at type rated or cadets through places like ctc willing to cough up.

I think for now, we just have to wait until the economy improves and business picks up like 2006/7 levels, then their will be jobs but I am not coughing up 30k to join Ryanair, thats for sure!!

It is funny though, because when things turn in the pilots favour again regarding employment, the experienced guys will offer zero loyalty to their prospective employers due to the slash and burn tactics being used now!!

[VJW]

Can't ever have one thread without a dig at Ryanair.

BA are in the process of recruiting, what do they require?? 500 hrs in last 12 months on either B737,A320, B757/767. Where can one get this type of flight time? Oh maybe somewhere like Ryanair!

Shake the tree, and I'll fall out. Least I'm in the tree! Paid for type rating or not, everyone pays one way or another, least most people who want to fly jets live in the now, and are not clinging onto the hope of the industry returning to the 'old days.'

As much as it annoys you that 200 hr cadets buy a type rating to proceed further in their career, the same goes for me with 2500 hr single pilot guys with hours instructing etc who think they deserve, are even capable, or automatically entitled to fly a jet just because they have some flight time.

Rant over- can't have it always so one sided.

Happy new year

[bokboy22]

VJW, forgive me, but I thought that was the point in any industry. You go do the **** jobs, earn your stripes and progress up the ladder.

I doubt very much you would want your heart surgeon buying his way into an operating theatre for open heart surgery without ever having done the meaningless thankless tasks gradually getting more difficult and laying a foundation of appreciation for what is exactly required to do your job.

Imagine lawyers paying for court time to practice on their clients without the proper understanding or experience gained in learning from their mistakes on less important decisions than say the big murder trial of an innocent man.. would you want to be one of those patients or clients

Good luck to you and your career, but there is no harm in doing a little hard work and earning your way in like the rest of us. Safety and experience is not to be ignored in aviation. It is not the god given right of bean counters to decide who flies and who does not.

Imagine the general public actually had an understanding of what happens in the airline industry today, they would be horrified!!;)

[MIKECR]

Horrified perhaps, but the question is would they care?. Probably not. All the public care about is getting a cheap seat for their bucket and spade trip. As long as its cheap as chips and runs on time then theyre happy. Harsh but true.

[VJW]

Hey man, I'm not knocking your thought process - but you're thought process is out of date as much as we all hate to say it. You almost suggest that people paying for their type rating are off the street, and haven't studied ATPL's along with completing a CPL, IR and a MCC.

Why does your KingAir experience automatically help you fly a 737? A 200 fresh CPL IR holder is just as likely to succeed during a type rating than you with your 2500 KingAir experience. Proven, whether you like it not by the fact it currently happens.

Remind me how many total haul losses that Easy or RYR has ever had due to lack of pilot competence and/or experience? Answer none! System works fine, just a shame its an employers market and not employees market right now. For you to say you are better because you have some KingAir experience simply isn't true.

'It is not the god given right of bean counters to decide who flies and who does not.' If by bean counters you mean the those working within the airlines, then yes it is ENTIRELY up to them who can apply and who cannot.

[bokboy22]

VJW, I dont think Im a better pilot than say a cadet, they could be naturally very gifted. I just think that it is a shame people can buy their way in without ever working for it. Experience still counts for something.


Bean counters dont have the right to decide who flies and who does not, based on a finacial decision. By law, safety theoretically should always come first and that comes with experience.



Anyway, it is off topic, the original point was are we running out of type rated guys... hopefully yes!!;)

[shaun ryder]

Remind me how many total haul losses that Easy or RYR has ever had due to lack of pilot competence and/or experience? Answer none!

Foolish words, a typical arrogant response from yet another Ryanair drone.

People like VJW are desperate to escape the shackles and move on to a proper job in the airlines.

Let us know when BA come knocking on your door VJW.

[VJW]

Not really off topic at all, you're main gripe is with people paying for a type rating.

Nobody buys their way in without ever working for it. I paid a type rating, and worked very hard up until that time and EVEN during and after the type rating course. Paying for a type rating course, doesn't mean you simply pay an examiner to stamp you're licence, so please stop insinuating that it does!

You are also missing my point. You seem to think that because you've been flying a KingAir you are automatically going to be more safe having passed a 737 type rating course, then a guy out of flight training, unless of course they are naturally gifted! Again this is not really true.

If I was flying with you or a cadet fresh from flight school on the 737 and the sh*t hit the fan, who would I prefer to be sat next too? Toss a coin, it'd make no difference.

[VJW]

How is it arrogant if it's a fact?

My long term plans aren't in Europe or UK and/or BA, my wife is American, so hoping to eventually go there. Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest.

[shaun ryder]

You are also missing my point. You seem to think that because you've been flying a KingAir you are automatically going to be more safe having passed a 737 type rating course, then a guy out of flight training, unless of course they are naturally gifted! Again this is not really true.

Experience is earned flying things like King Airs, period. You are probably one of the hundreds dropped off the OAT conveyer belt, straight into a self funded type rating course, this does not arm you with all the skills you need to be a safe and efficient operator.

I'll bet the author of this thread could fly his King Air whilst wiping your arse in the process.

If I was flying with you or a cadet fresh from flight school on the 737 and the sh*t hit the fan, who would I prefer to be sat next too? Toss a coin, it'd make no difference.

Again foolish and unsophisticated VJW, are you really a professional pilot, or some bored teenager?

[shaun ryder]

Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest.

You see this is the problem we have.

You automatically assume that a command is a given right and that you don't want to wait for it. The same I suppose applies to your leg up into a RYR 737?

[VJW]

This is the type of character I'd hate to sit next too, and probably extremely common in BA.

Remind me the last time BA hired someone with experience close to what bokboy22 has, as a FO they then bonded onto a course?? Don't tell me that's how you gain experience, when you're airline is known for never accepting a guy in bokboy22's position, or a modular student from flight school. When they did hire cadets its was the very people you just described off the OAT conveyor belt, and now they're looking for guys with time on type? I should start querying whether you're a professional pilot.

Insult me all you want, but while the bokboy22 is wiping my a$$ flying his kingair, it still isn't helping him apply to the airline you work for!

Proper job, not for me.

PS Definitely not an OAT student (apart from the MCC at the end)- I was self funded modular.

[VJW]

I sympathise with bokboy22, but it's the way of the world now. Whether it be BA/Easy/RYR etc etc - no one recruits experienced FO's unless you have time on type.

[bokboy22]

Shaun Ryder, I for one as the writer of this thread am glad you get what Im saying here. Experience counts for everything, especially in aviation.

My days of charter in singles, twin pistons, King Airs etc taught me invaluable lessons especially when it comes to the decision making process.

There is nothing like putting your own neck on the line in a twin piston IFR flight with thunderstorms heading your way to really make you think what is the best option here.

I for one am glad I got to experience all of that as it really made me appreciate just what we actually do for a living.:ok:

[Ercos]

I agree, experience is key. I worked my way through flying air cargo on a Cessna 206 and Chieftain until I got a lucky break with a Citation. What I learned and the problems I faced while trudging through weather in mountainous terrain sculpted the thought processes I used on jets. An initial training course and all the sim sessions in the world can't teach you what to do when your deadlines are running tight, weather is down, and you find a problem with the plane that may or may not be deferred.

I spent some time working for a company that contracted maintenance to airlines and when dealing with the "cracker jack pilots" at the regionals the experienced mechanics would groan. The pilots often lacked the ability to be independent decisions as a crew and would defer PIC decisions to pilot management, union personnel, and maintenance control. In the corporate world those pilots would be eaten alive.

There is something to be said for having to make your own life and death decisions without being able to defer those decisions to a higher up. It hardens your resolve and sharpens your judgment. You can't ever teach those sort of things, but that's what I look for in a pilot. When look to hire a pilot to act as PIC (or SIC even since I eventually want SIC's to be PIC's) I would take someone with 2500 hours hard King Air time versus a 737 rated 800 hour pilot and I have done so many times in the past.

Stick flying accounts for only 10% of what it takes to fly a jet, 90% is judgment and general experiences.

[captainsuperstorm]

these posts prove my point that you are all a bunch of frustrated pilots...YES you are: Bitter, angry, whatever, you are all the same...
what do I read? the guy on King Air not happy to fly, want be on 737.
the guys on 737 switching A/P, not happy, want be captain.
The captains on 737 want be on 747....
Type rated: unhappy, not type rated: unhappy. Integrated: unhappy, modular: unhappy...

and at the end, captains 747, whining, because their retirements are coming, and still they are not happy with all the money they have saved.Blaming their 4 wives (ex hostess), and numerous (unofficial)kids they still have to support.

My God, guys, get a life! get happy with you life or you will regret it!
look at what you have, and not at what you don't have!

[darkroomsource]

Im relatively experienced with 2600 TT including 1600 King Air turbine time
Show me ANY other profession where someone with about 2 years experience (actually about 15 months at 40 hours per week), is considered to be "Relatively Experienced".

2600 hours is NOT relative experienced, if you were working for an accounting firm, you might still be on probation with 2600 hours accounting experience. Especially since the first 250 or so were your training, which for an accountant took FOUR YEARS at university. Based on that, you're still a sophmore at school.

I, for one, am not comfortable when I find out that the two pilots in the front office have a combined total time less than 5000 hours. Sure I can understand it on a Caravan, or a 210, but in a 737? No. Scares the pants off me to think that I'm trusting my life, and the lives of my family to some kids who're younger than my own sons (And I'm only 50).

It blows my mind to think that people actually believe they're qualified, ne, entitled, to have a front office position in a Boeing or Airbus. They need to put in several - read 10-15 years in a SAAB first, and that after having spent several additional years flying something smaller.

What ever happend to work ethic? To being willing to start at the bottom? In the corporate world one must start "in the mailroom" and work one's way to the top. Excluding small family owned businesses, even the bosses son starts in the mailroom.

[pacrion]

I, for one, am not comfortable when I find out that the two pilots in the front office have a combined total time less than 5000 hours. Sure I can understand it on a Caravan, or a 210, but in a 737? No. Scares the pants off me to think that I'm trusting my life, and the lives of my family to some kids who're younger than my own sons (And I'm only 50).

You are completely wrong my friend. Some "kids" as you said, might be much better than some others older. Of course they need experience, but when we all begin operating a new aircraft, doesn't matter the age. Know the aircraft, what are you doing and safety overall, not the age. Just my opinion.

[VJW]

One could also argue that paying for a type, working for a low cost carrier and getting paid only when you fly, is starting at the bottom!

Times are changing, years ago you'd have said no way to removing the flight engineers and navigators from the cockpit but they're gone.

Flying is easier now with the technology. Perhaps those saying you need to get 10 years flying a saab 2000 before hitting a jet, perhaps aren't as natural to flying then others. Harsh, but perhaps also true?

Darkrooms comments almost sound like those coming from someone in a midlife crisis...we're all getting older mate, everyone seems younger now then what we were when we did the same things. I notice this especially in bars I hit when at Uni, everyone there looks so much younger then I was when I started going there, fact is, they aren't!

[Flaperon75]

VJW - you're hilarious!

"Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest"

It was only a couple of weeks ago that you were on the BA interview thread crowing to the world that you'd got an impending interview with them...... guess you fell at the first fence right!?

You also seem to be applying to every other airline out there - TCX, BMIbaby etc. Life at RYR so great that you can't wait to leave?

[darkroomsource]

Wow!
I opened up a can of worms didn't I?

2600 horus can easily be achieved in with just two years experience of actually line flying. It is, however only equal to one and a half years of working at any other job.

I am pointing out that 2600 hours sounds like a lot, but it is in fact very very inexperienced, when one considers that if one is to get a degree, in say history, or accounting, or computer science, one will have more than 2600 hours of "training" before one graduates with a bachelors.

To consider yourself experience with 2600 hours is ludicrous.

Compared to 250 hours, sure you're experienced, but that's like a senior in college comparing themselves to a high school student. The senior has much more background, sure, but nowhere near as much as the person who's been doing the job for 10 years.

It's not got anything to do with how well you fly the plane, I don't pay my $1000 for a ticket because I want someone who can fly the plane, anyone can fly the plane, especially with all the current technology (this is an exageration, I know that not just anyone can fly the plane). What we, the flying public are paying for, is to have a pilot in the front who's got enough experience to know how to react in an emergency.

Look at the FO who just recently was unable to recover the plane when he disconnected the autopilot when he moved his seat forward, and the captain had to come back into the cockpit before he could finish in the toilet.

And the fact that you can SOOOO upset, shows the level of maturity you have not reached.

[FlyingStone]

2600 horus can easily be achieved in with just two years experience of actually line flying. It is, however only equal to one and a half years of working at any other job.

You clearly aren't a pilot. EU OPS limits maximum block hours for flight crew to a maximum of 900 hours per year, although in reality, most pilots in airlines do about 800 block hours. The biggest mistake you made is compare flight (block hours) with working hours of an accountant. Block time starts when the aircraft starts to move on its on power and end when the aircraft comes to a complete stop on the blocks, not when a pilots shows for work and leaves after final flight of the day. Comparing block time to 9-5 job of some accountant - :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[bokboy22]

Darkroom, I think you are missing my point. I agree, people who put their families on aeroplanes want guys experienced, not just in aviation but life.

With my 2600, I said I am relatively experienced, I did not call myself Chuck Yeagar. Put me with a 4500 hour captain and there is 7000 hours up front.

I was emphasising the point, that after a city career in I.T. which admittedly I did not mention, I was willing to start again and learn and earn my stripes to be able to fly a 737.

I did do a 4 year degree, got that experience, then got to a high management position running teams and projects, then did start again in aviation learning the ropes, building my way up and appreciating what is required in the decision making process which unfortunately a 22 year old who pays for a type rating with RYR just could not comprehend because they have not done it.

Ask yourself this, what is the point of experience if we can all just buy our way into a right hand seat once we have a license and IR. As somebody who has a masters degree in computer science, believe me, I understand more than most how easy it is to plug some numbers into an FMS and 'Monitor'.

The question is, does one understand the process of making the decision that could save lives when technology, captain or both are not their to hold your hand. All I have been saying is that I have a great appreciation for having the chance to gain that experience to make decisions on my own and keep learning which is what is missing in aviation today.:ok:

[inner]

Seems that the term "experienced" is quite subjectif. Yes you can be experienced with 1600 king air time. Depends what you did with king air.

I have friends who are "experienced" on their boeing doing everyday the same track although they've never been in Russia, Africa etc.

I'm doing a lot of flights to Russia, Africa and ME but not on an boeing/airbus but on a private jet.

So am i less "experienced" than they are or are they just more "experienced" than i am??

[Bealzebub]

Earlier this year I operated a heavy crew flight (2 captains and a first officer,) where we discovered that between the 3 of us, and in roughly equal measure, we had 45,000 hours experience on the same type and for the same company.

Despite that, there isn't a day that goes by without the realization that you are still fallible, and always have something new to learn.

[bokboy22]

Inner, I guess we are all experienced in our own way, but less experienced in others like you pointed out.

The issue is, how do we go about getting that experience so that everybody benefits as a whole wether it be pilots, pax etc.

Someone pointed out earlier, in the good old days, you started in the mail room and worked your way up, I agree with that thought process in aviation.

Lets be honest, most passengers dont want to get on a plane and see a 22 year old pilot in either the left or right hand seat of a 737.

And with regards to how I started this whole thread, any ideas when we are nearing the end of an abundance of type rated guys anybody!! Im actually job hunting and trying to get bonded to some airline/corporate/cargo company... need to pay the bills.:ok:

[darkroomsource]

You clearly aren't a pilot. EU OPS limits maximum block hours for flight crew to a maximum of 900 hours per year, although in reality, most pilots in airlines do about 800 block hours. The biggest mistake you made is compare flight (block hours) with working hours of an accountant. Block time starts when the aircraft starts to move on its on power and end when the aircraft comes to a complete stop on the blocks, not when a pilots shows for work and leaves after final flight of the day. Comparing block time to 9-5 job of some accountant - :ugh::ugh::ugh:
I am a pilot.
And I have had a career in business.
And I know that a pilot can get at most 1000 hours in a year. and even if you only figure 800 hours, that's a whopping 3 years of experience.
But you have to SUBTRACT the time that would be the equivalent of getting your degree in the REAL WORLD, so you have to subtract four years of "experience" and what do you have? a negative balance.

I am NOT saying that 2600 hours is nothing.

I AM saying that 2600 is not "experienced" it is just a newbie.

And "a 4500 hour" captain plus 2500 FO means 7000 hours. well that's just a grand total of less than 10 years combined.

I wouldn't put a project manager on building a $300 million factory who had less than 10 years experience, plus a 4 year degree, why would I put less experience in charge of a $300 million airplane with 400 lives at stake?

[darkroomsource]

Lets be honest, most passengers dont want to get on a plane and see a 22 year old pilot in either the left or right hand seat of a 737.

And with regards to how I started this whole thread, any ideas when we are nearing the end of an abundance of type rated guys anybody!! Im actually job hunting and trying to get bonded to some airline/corporate/cargo company... need to pay the bills.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

So where DOES the public expect to see a 22 year old in one of the seats up front?

That is probably the question to ask, and when you have the answer, then you know where you need to go to get a gig (if you're 22 years old).
And if you're older, and just starting, you have to realize that flight experience wise, you're basically the same, and so you have to start at one of those jobs.

From what I can tell, those are the small cargo ops, the small pax ops - Cessna 210's 206's, maybe a caravan - then after you've got a couple years experience doing that you can move up to the smaller regionals - ie. cape air, and then with a few more years you move on to something bigger. If that's the case, there aren't a whole lot of type ratings required before the first 5 or 6 years are done.

I am finding that there is a difference between types of experience too.
For example, if you've got a few thousand hours experience flying the family, that's one kind, but flying the line is different, and it's not about the "flying" as much as working within an organization in the difference between the family and the line.

It would seem to me that companies are also going to see cargo flying differntly from pax flying. One's usually all night flying for example.

[SkyRocket10]

VJW- I think you like many others fail to appreciate just how fortunate you were to secure a jet job with such low hours, and because of this you automatically feel entitled to further fast track progression.
I notice from some of your comments that you're very defensive of your airline, but why may I ask have you in the past few months applied for just about every jet job going?
Thankfully airlines such as BA that you choose to openly criticize have a tried and tested selection, and from that they are easily able to recognize anf reject characters like yourself. Perhaps being rejected adds to your bitterness?!
Either way, good luck in your continued endeavours to leave Ryanair!

[Ercos]

"So where DOES the public expect to see a 22 year old in one of the seats up front?"

In the front of a Caravan, a King Air, a Cessna 206, a Chieftain, a Citation Jet, a Beech 400, a Beech 1900, a Dornier 228, a Pilatus, a Beech 99, an MU-2, a Cessna 421, a Q400, a Dash-8, an EMB-120, etc.

Basically there are many aircraft with forgiving characteristics that let a pilot make their mistakes and correct them without catastrophic results. Most jets, save the Citations and Beech 400s, will not allow for a newer pilot to make the errors necessary for learning without major problems. Often times newer pilots will get behind aircraft, even if those pilots have logged 10,000 hours in a jet as an SIC they will find themselves in a whole new world when their name is under the PIC column of that dispatch release.

It is imperative for any good pilot to have left seat, real PIC time. I'm not talking about flying a jet or handling the yoke. I mean making the big decisions from the moment you show up at work to the moment you duty off. As I said before, a real pilot's skill isn't how smoothly they can land but how well they can plan and execute a flight in its entirety. This can only come from being in the left seat and baring the burden of command.

A young pilot that has never bore that burden and made those decisions in their entire career will be ill equipped when they upgrade. It's easy sitting in that right seat and playing armchair quarterback, but without the time gained making real decisions while commanding a flight you will flounder and you will make more mistakes than someone who has experience sitting in the captain's chair. I'd rather my pilot made their "stupid mistakes" in a King Air moving along at a comfortably slow cruise than a 737 packed with happy vacationers rocketing around at .78 mach.

We all make mistakes, we learn from them too. I can go through a lifetime of near death experiences and diaper changes I encountered in my early flying days. I made those mistakes and escaped with my life because the plane I flew allowed me to slow or turn tightly or land in a forgiving manner. Then I took the lessons learned from that sheer terror or humiliation and applied it to how I made decisions in jets. If I was in a 737 or a Gulfstream when I had gained my hubris there's a good chance I wouldn't be writing this today.

[hollingworthp]

Darkroom - the irrefutable fact of the matter is, most of the flying public couldn't give a rats arse about who sits in the flight-deck.

The vast majority of passengers (certainly in Europe but it all started in the good old US of A) want to get there for the least possible amount of money. This is why the lo cost model is so rampant and the likes of Ryanair carry more passengers than the legacies.

Flying is routine and with the locked door policy, Jo Public almost never sees who (or how old) the 2 people up front are. The first time any consideration will be given is when it is evident that the proverbial poo is hitting the fan - and that just (almost) never ever happens.

So it's all well and good for you and others to sit in your armchair and pontificate about why YOU would never hire such people into YOUR airline - the the fact remains, YOU are not running an airline. So your opinion in fact counts for sod all. It is just that, an opinion like anyone else's. You are entitled to it and so is anyone else.

As a side note - how many serious incidents / accidents have occurred with inexperienced newbies (lets say less than 3000 hours using your yardstick - which incidentally could be 8-10 years experience in my sector of the industry) compared to the old timers at the controls? Just what percentage of Darkroom's tiny 2600 hours would have been racked up at FL350+ for over 8 hour sectors with the autopilot doing the work - gosh you really learn your trade in the cruise don't you???? Total volume of hours is not in itself the only way of measuring experience.

Without diving into the details, seems to me that the likes of American, Delta, United etc etc etc have lost more hulls than Ryanair and EasyJet (and those two companies complete a HUGE number of sectors per year combined) - clearly it hasn't been many in recent years, perhaps technology does have an impact?

[VIRGA]

VJW, the simple fact is that it is people like you that brought all our Ts and Cs down to what they are. I hope it all bites you in the arse one day.

Pilots with limited skill and a fat wallet from either their oldies or a remortgaged house. Congratulations. Its not competition that you have created its a cancer.

My limited 25yrs in the industry has made me very very weary of people like you. I dont want to sit next to you or even talk to you in the crew room. You are a breed of your own and so obviously happy with screwing the industry to make your bosses happy just so you and your own are ok...Well down boyo.

[southernskyz]

VIRGA,

Quote: VIRGA.
"Pilots with limited skill and a fat wallet from either their oldies or a remortgaged house. Congratulations. Its not competition that you have created, its a cancer."

AND
"My limited 25yrs in the industry has made me very very weary of people like you. I dont want to sit next to you or even talk to you in the crew room. You are a breed of your own and so obviously happy with screwing the industry to make your bosses happy just so you and your own are ok".

VIRGA: Re-mortgaged house?
Yes...that's the best way to obtain money and pay for a type rating.
If the folks have extra cash then, that's a bonus!

**From what i can gather with your post ,you haven't used your money wisely in your younger years and you don't have access to lower interest loans, such as mortgaged home loans.
So now you envy people that have access to cash, at low interest loans.

*Well, you have definetly stuffed up the money somewhere along the way, in your fabulous life, for you to respond in this fashion.

**bokboy22:

Why don't you just appy to the main carriers and see how you go?
If you were just a co-pilot in the kingair, then that's useful but it's not to
glamorous, as you have a captain watching all your moves!

What are you expecting?
The world to move for you?

I would say a kid out of school, with a CPL/ME IR and ATPL subjects, could challenge you with you general knowledge and skill!
You got to be aware of that!

If you haven't moved forward from your king air days, then you never will?

[BigNumber]

I have posted this before but will offer this analysis again.

I hold that it will increasingly prove difficult to earn a "plausible living" performing what is essentially a blue collar function that others are willing to pay to do.

So............

Whilst flying desperately retains its last morsels of kudos, young 'pasty faced' little boys will take their walking talking daddy wallets down to Oxford to attend a highly polished open day. Following a thorough assessment day, and now armed with an apositely aquired confirmation bias, Oxfords cash till can ring again. (Timothy did so very well in those difficult computer tests.)

Dinner party's at M n D's now routinely turn to the challenges of flying a modern jet; our 'pasty faced' lad is delighted to elucidate much to the delight of his parents! That JOC course has been most useful. Mum glows with pride each time Timothy comes home, (with his washing), wearing that smart Oxford Uniform carrying a ridiculous brief case included in the course price at no extra cost. The stickers were extra.

But, now armed with his MEP/IR MCC and JOC, employent just isn't beating the path to the door. (Times have been hard you know in all industry's, not just aviation.)

Faced with the social indignity of mums bridge group learning that 'Timothy' is working at B & Q and flying 3 hours a month on a 150 Aerobat further funding is soon made available to secure 'our' rightful place on a TR / Flexiscrew, P2F similar. After all, these lads are the lucky ones.

It's a great result!!! Timothy gets to play pilot, Mum gets to 'blow off' at Bridge Club. But, best of all, Wayne n Tracy get a well deserved subsidized 'junket' to Benidorm. Rightly so, didn't the bible did predict that 'the meek would inherit the earth'? or cheap air fares anyway!

For my part, I truely hope that my son will NOT follow in his fathers foot steps. ( Unless he stays in military service for a full career ).

[bokboy22]

Southerskyze, I have been applying but as I wont buy my way in, Im no use until there is a shortage, that is part of my gripe. I was willing to go out and earn my stripes by starting at the bottom and working my way up.

I wanted to get my pic time, even if it was on multi piston, then turbine, but at least I earned it and now feel in aviation I would make a good F.O. in an airline/corporate and work my way to captaincy.

I have been making command decisions, flight planning, understanding what is required to conduct a safe flight knowing the buck stops at me and Im responsible.

I also dont want to be part of the crowd dragging down our T's and C's. I could have bought a type rating as well and joined RYR, Easy etc but I dont feel that is right (just my opinion) until you have actual experience conducting smaller less important flights so you actually gain real worl exprience.

Someone mentioned earlier that BA, Virgin etc all ask for 500 on type bfore they hire you. The reason they do that now is because the 20 year old 200 hour hero was impatient, all started buying there way in, thus our flight pay has plummeted and now that they know they can make us pay, they do!!

Before, it was experience that counted, regardless of what or where you went to fly, you still had to do a type rating, be trained and all the rest, but at least your first job was not an A320 doing .82 with no real worl experience or understanding of what is actually happening.

Virga and a few others are merely trying to state like myself, experience counts, be patient, learn your trade, get an understanding an appreciation for what is going on and progress properly and safely, nothing wrong with that.:ok:

[bokboy22]

Oh, another thing just to clarify, I dont expect an airline/ corporate etc to pay for everything and a pilot can just leave when they please.

Im very open to being bonded through service agreements of 3 to 5 years depending on cost, type etc, even deductions from your salary.. just not buying your way in through type ratings or pay to fly.

I wish other pilots would think and consider the industry as a whole before doing some of the things they do, as one day, you will be the experienced guy/gal with your T's and C's in the gutter due to the next lot buying into everything!!

I do hope we all have that 1500 hour rule soon like the US before you can join an airline, with 500 multi PIC... The industry will drastically improve then!!:ok:

[felixflyer]

The 1500 hour rule would spell the end for lots of wannabes.

In the US there is a GA industry that can provide employment for the large number of low houred pilots. In the UK there is not.

Imagine how hard it would be to get the job on the Kingair if we had that rule. There would be hundreds of applicants and a large portion of those would be willing to pay for the priviledge. It would make things worse.

The people getting the jobs would be foreigners from countries that have large GA industries such as Oz, USA and millitary pilots.

If this ever does come to Euroland expect to see 0-1500 hour P2F courses for £200,000+. They would probably be queing up to do it as well.

[bokboy22]

So be it for the wannabies who take the easy route. If the 1500 hour rule is there with 500 mutl pic, and legislation preventing pay to fly or buying your way in, T's and C's recover, industry returns to normal with regards to hiring.

Heres a thought, instead of todays lazy gits just sitting on their arse in Europe, how about doing instructor ratings, going to Aus, Africa, NZ, US, Canada and do some bush flying, floats, mail charter, game reserve flying and getting experience, enjoy it and experience life.

I see to many youngsters today who bacause they happen to live close to Luton for example think it is great, I will pay to fly/ buy a type rating with Easy so Im based at home and basically dont have to get of my arse.

A little bit of work ethic never hurt anybody. Low and behold a 200 hour guy may have to fly a seneca before he gets into his shiny new 737-800 with winglets and all, oh no, we cant have that now!!

The aviation industry is in the worst shape of it's life at present, there is no denying that:ugh:

[darkroomsource]

Darkroom - the irrefutable fact of the matter is, most of the flying public couldn't give a rats arse about who sits in the flight-deck.
And that's obvious by the US congress passing laws requiring minimum flight times.

Flying is routine and with the locked door policy, Jo Public almost never sees who (or how old) the 2 people up front are. The first time any consideration will be given is when it is evident that the proverbial poo is hitting the fan - and that just (almost) never ever happens.
This is the crux of the matter.
And it's not really what I or any other pax care, but it's what the lawyers and insurance agents say that matters.

So it's all well and good for you and others to sit in your armchair and pontificate about why YOU would never hire such people into YOUR airline - the the fact remains, YOU are not running an airline. So your opinion in fact counts for sod all. It is just that, an opinion like anyone else's. You are entitled to it and so is anyone else.
Thanks for allowing me to have an opinion.
I was trying to point out, to obviously some very closed minded people, that a company is not going to hire people with just a few years training and experience to put in charge of high-profile expensive projects or activities if they can, in any way, get more experienced individuals.

As a side note - how many serious incidents / accidents have occurred with inexperienced newbies (lets say less than 3000 hours using your yardstick - which incidentally could be 8-10 years experience in my sector of the industry) compared to the old timers at the controls?
Here, you've hanged yourself. I guess you've not been paying attention to the news for the past 2 or 3 years.

Just what percentage of Darkroom's tiny 2600 hours would have been racked up at FL350+ for over 8 hour sectors with the autopilot doing the work - gosh you really learn your trade in the cruise don't you???? Total volume of hours is not in itself the only way of measuring experience.
Again, this is not experience FLYING THE PLANE, it's experience living, dealing with situations that are OUTSIDE the norm. It's being responsible, it's dealing with management, and all the junk. Pilots of big-iron are NOT paid to fly the plane. They're paid to deal with emergencies. And if their total experience is 250 hours before they started flying computers, then they have NO experience dealing with emergencies, or even hand flying the plane if it's just a simple autopilot failure - recently this happened in case you haven't been paying attentiong (again).

Without diving into the details, seems to me that the likes of American, Delta, United etc etc etc have lost more hulls than Ryanair and EasyJet (and those two companies complete a HUGE number of sectors per year combined) - clearly it hasn't been many in recent years, perhaps technology does have an impact?
Try reading or listening to the news.

[3bars]

VJW is entitled to an opinion... and I for one have to agree with him.

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe and he informs me that flying with a 200 hour cadet is no different than flying with a guy with 2000 hours experience on light aircraft. :ouch:

[shaun ryder]

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe and he informs me that flying with a 200 hour cadet is no different than flying with a guy with 2000 hours experience on light aircraft.


He says with a swagger.

Obviously this must be correct then. Just to clarify (does this include flying single pilot ops in light twins?), they are also light aircraft too.

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe

How do you come to this conclusion I wonder?

Who is feeding you this rubbish, the mind boggles?

3bars

Let me guess?

Another Ryanair hotshot perhaps?

[Brakefire]

As a matter of interest, are there any 200 hour heros in LCC's that actually do believe experience counts?:;)

[hollingworthp]

Well I admit - I am not going on hard facts just what springs to mind on recent accidents. Obviously there is Colgan, but when you look a bit deeper it gets a bit more interesting.

I am actually curious enough to look into some of the basics of the recent accidents as there does seem to be a popular opinion that there is a safety risk of low time pilots in airliners combined with high workloads, max duty, minimum risk etc. And I would not argue that point. My main issue is the 2600 hours being practically novice.

As I happen to be sitting at home waiting for more flights, I will dig into the details of the more recent accidents on this (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Paxfatal.htm)NTSB table - but even a cursory glance seems to reveal a large number of legacies (obviously discounting 9/11). I'll come back to the thread with what I find.

In the meantime - a kneejerk vote-winning reaction from the US political system was pretty much guaranteed reaction to Colgan. Fortunately in the US there is a substantial GA market to allow pilots to cut their teeth while remaining on the same continent as their family. Not so in Europe (for sure) and probably the rest of the world (only based on my view and not fact).

Thanks for allowing me to have an opinion.
I was trying to point out, to obviously some very closed minded people, that a company is not going to hire people with just a few years training and experience to put in charge of high-profile expensive projects or activities if they can, in any way, get more experienced individuals. In an ideal world this would be true - but at the end of the day, it is the bottom line that counts at many companies, and if they can put bums on the front two seats for the least possible payroll while meeting the requirements, then they will. Not saying they will go for legal minimums of experience - just that they will try to pay as little as possible for that experience.

[darkroomsource]

at the end of the day, it is the bottom line that counts at many companies, and if they can put bums on the front two seats for the least possible payroll while meeting the requirements, then they will. Not saying they will go for legal minimums of experience - just that they will try to pay as little as possible for that experience.
And hence the ENTIRE DISCUSSION.
If you have 2600 hours, that is not nothing, but it is not 15,000 hours. And there ARE pilots with 15,000 hours who are willing to work for less than they are actually worth. And there will ALWAYS be pilots willing to work for less than they are worth.
Of course there are. If there was another "profession" that made you feel as good doing it, there would be a shortage of positions in that profession also. Especially one that allows people with less than a 4-year degree's worth of experience to be in that profession.
If you work in another profession, let's take IT for example, you probably have to have a 4-year degree (for some old-timers this is not the case, but for anyone getting into it in the last 15-20 years, a 4-year degree is a minimum, many now are entering with masters and phds), and with just a degree, you'd start as an entry level programmer, working with a senior programmer. You wouldn't start out as the senior Oracle database administrator...
But, in the aviation profession, particularly about 2-4 years ago, we had many many "under-qualified" pilots being placed because there was an extreme shortage of pilots. However that blip is gone, and we're back to the way it was before. And before that blip, the average pilot either went from the air force to a civilian jet, or instructed for 2-5 years, then local/135 or maybe regional for 5-10 years, then national, having 10-15 years experience. And converting that into hours, you see that 2600 is what most instructors had for the previous 4-5 decades, excluding 2-3 years ago.

[3bars]

Pull your neck in Shaun... people are entitled to their own opinions whether you agree or not.

The experienced captain I refer to has worked for more years commercially than any other pilot in Europe, confirmed by the Aviation Authorities, so I'd consider him a Mecca of Information.

No, I've never worked for Ryanair:=.... but do their A/C not deserve to be in the sky as much as BA's, or any other company???

I bet you're great fun on a day out:ugh:

[SinglePilotCaptain]

If you pay for a girl to sleep with you...don't tell us you seduced her..

Buying a seat in a plane, and told to wear a uniform isn't flying....there's more to being a pilot then looking out the window and going 'oh wow, this is cool'

[Brakefire]

3 Bar, Shaun is also entitled to his opinion which seems to anger you.

It is funny though how all the very experienced pilots on this site seem to collectively agree with each other and not think too much of the RYR 200 hour hero's buying their way in.:=

[3bars]

I've no problem with Shaun expressing an opinion, but his reply suggests that he is not open to any other opinion but his own
I am not too keen on guys paying for type ratings either, but Ryanair is there, they've changed things ( and not for the better ) and if that's what it takes to get a job these days, good luck to them. Remember, in years gone bye, it was frowned upon for pilots to pay to obtain a CPL!
We've got to move with the times..... but our day will come ( i hope ):ugh:

[captainsuperstorm]

there is no way for a 200h pilot to get a job or build time.

P2F is not the solution, and there is no job on light aircraft and not many open position for flight instructors, light jets,...

I mean this market is pretty much 99.99% stuck and getting a paid job is part of the past.

[darkroomsource]

Welcome to the real world.

[Sciolistes]

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe and he informs me that flying with a 200 hour cadet is no different than flying with a guy with 2000 hours experience on light aircraft.
So we have people who don't value experience because the most experienced pilots in Europe say so :confused:

[captainsuperstorm]

experience doesnt count because a copilot with 3000h or 200h on the bus do the same task, same SOP, same call out,...

the planes have changed. it s all computerized, and any newbie can learn to program a FMGC in a few hours.

after take off, press A/P, and the plane turn, climb, and descent by itself. it reduces its speed when adding flaps, and all you do is to put the gear down.

with cat 3B, no need to land manually.land in zero vis.

this is why a experimented pilot is not required nowadays.

once you got your 500h, you are out. thats the business.!!!

a shocking reality in fact, but this is how airlines make money.by adding pennies, they make big mega bucks,... time where copilots were paid is over.

[darkroomsource]

experience doesnt count because a copilot with 3000h or 200h on the bus do the same task
It's not about flying the airplane.
If it was about flying the airplane there wouldn't be pilots at all. It would be entirely computerized.

It's about what to do when the airplane isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

And for that, the companies, the insurance companies, and the paying public, want to have someone in front who has seen a few situations, has lived a little, and won't panic when something goes wrong.

[captainsuperstorm]

want to have someone in front who has seen a few situations, has lived a little, and won't panic when something goes wrong.

wrong, people dont give a damn of you or your life experience. do you think they ask me when they enter my cockpit, how many hours I have, if I have slept.
they give a damn about us. all they want is fly for cheap. if a ticket is less 1 euro less, they change airline.
plus nothing go wrong on my plane , you have 1 chance on 1 million to have engine out, and who care about engine out, all you do is to come back to land and call for ecam action.

in fact I am getting out of my airline soon, get back flying real planes and make real money without all the bullcrap of these airlines technocrats.

I let my place to the rich dreamers ...have fun flying 6 legs a day for P2F!

[Sciolistes]

experience doesnt count because a copilot with 3000h or 200h on the bus do the same task, same SOP, same call out,...
But not the same SA, knowledge, capacity, CRM, tact, confidence, tolerance and timely assertiveness - and that is when everything is working properly.

Can anybody really say that their competancy is same with a few thousand hours compared to their first year?

Look at two Ryanair incidents that I am sure would ot have happened with an experienced F/O, the Captain incapacitation in Italy and the GPWS incident over Cork.

[Brakefire]

Pilots are paid for what they know, not what they do. It is when it has all gone wrong is where you earn your money.

Experience is very important, that is exactly why you dont automatically become a captain. Anybody who believes experience does not count is an idiot. It is about stick and rudder skills, knowing your aircraft and most importantly being able to recognise a problem and be able to make the right decision.

The flying public do care what happens up front, they just presume we all know what we are doing and are experienced enough. If you asked most of the general public, do you feel comfortable with a 200 hour RYR hero upfront STRAIGHT OUT OF FLIGHT SCHOOL, I guarantee you in would be NO!!!

Who ever said experience does not count, try this, when you go for your next job interview, tell the CP and panel interviewing you it does not matter who sits up front and what hours they have.... you will be told, dont call us, we will call you.:{

[B767PL]

I didn't read the whole thread, or even whole first page for that matter, but all I will say is :

WOW, VJW, you are exactly what is wrong with this industry.:yuk:

On top of that, with your comments, your lack of experience also shows or maybe just maturity. Having said things like that, you should be flying a kite, not a plane full of pax.

[Airbus Girl]

I don't know why people keep training, or think they will walk into a job at the end of it. If you do even basic research you will discover plenty of redundancies in the last 2 or 3 years, many experienced pilots went to the desert, many will be back as soon as recruitment picks up. These are experienced pilots with type ratings and plenty of hours on type. So yes, at the moment there are still plenty of type rated experience pilots out there applying for jobs, and most airlines would rather interview these first, and take their pick, before going to low experience/ non-TR pilots.
It is just a case of supply and demand.

[darkroomsource]

...many will be back as soon as recruitment picks up. These are experienced pilots with type ratings and plenty of hours on type...
I would add that "plenty of hours on type" for many of the furloughed pilots is in the range of 10-15 THOUSAND hours IN TYPE.
It will be very hard to compete with pilots with that many hours when one has only a couple years experience.

[captainsuperstorm]

Who ever said experience does not count, try this, when you go for your next job interview, tell the CP and panel interviewing you it does not matter who sits up front and what hours they have.... you will be told, dont call us, we will call you.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif


yes and no.
minimum experience is fixed by the insurance companies.(This is why I got jobs... it has nothing to do with my experience, I just satisfy their insurance requirement and their immigration laws, and for some other job, I am not accepted, because I don't have the hours on this or that plane or I have too many hours, Yes I have been refused because they told me I will quit for bigger plane....)

less hours has the copilot, more the airline has to pay.This is why sometimes you see airlines asking for 3000h, then 6 months later, 500h, then 300h.
It has nothing to do with the PAX, if a passenger don't want fly with an airline, it 's his choice.
Sometimes when you fly as a passenger, they ask you about your flight and you have to fill some question.I have never been asked about how I like the pilots or not, instead, they ask question about the food, service, seat comfort,connection, reservation, ....


What people look at : price, and the plane they will fly (preferably 2-4 jet airplane), then food, the ladies, magazines,....

Still, newbes will continue to be trained, pushed by parents who know nothing, they soon realize(after sending 500 CV around the world) this market is on his knee, and when you warn others, they simply laugh at you, telling it's a lie or you have a bad attitude.

[shaun ryder]

(This is why I got jobs... it has nothing to do with my experience, I just satisfy their insurance requirement

Another reason why I and countless others will always make the choice and refuse to fly on Ryanair!

[hollingworthp]

Another reason why I and countless others will always make the choice and refuse to fly on Ryanair!

But even more DO choose to fly Ryanair - and it's not for the service. So the pricepoint is key for the majority of short-haul pax.

[Brakefire]

The pricepoint is only key because the general public honestly believe that the 2 guys up front have a lot of experience and know what they are doing.

They assume it is like any other career, you dont get a position of major responsibility until you have the right experience and know how.... how little they know!!!

As Shaun Ryder said, another reason many of us will not fly Ryan Air:\

[darkroomsource]

I think the pricepoint is the most important thing because the public thinks all airlines are the same.
They have, however seen, in recent history, that they are not the same, and are beginning to pay attention to things like seat size, service, and yes, pilot experience.
I'd give it a year or two before airlines start advertising average experience levels of pilots. There just have been too many incidents in the past year or so where a lack of experience was, if not a factor, at least present.

[Brakefire]

The sooner the likes of people like RYR's O'Leary are out of aviation, the sooner the industry can improve.

I really hope they do bring in legislation regarding P2F and buying type ratings and scrap it. Follow the USA and bring in the 1500 hour rule before you can join an airline.

It will put many people of flying for a career due to the hard work involved, improve safety and T's and C's.:ok:

[CathayBrat]

My main issue is the 2600 hours being practically novice.

Now thats depressing. :{
As i have that many hrs, mainly command of Mr Beechcrafts fine toys, flying in very challenging areas south of the Med, but i am now classed as a novice! Now have a job in the UK, still flying Mr B's fine toys. So when do i stop being a novice? A 320/737 TR? Not for me. I shall continue to fly Mr B's fine toys, hopefully for the rest of my career, as its fun flying, not just pressing the auto pilot button. There is also less sh1t in this sector of the market, and we generally dont eat our young to climb the ladder, so much less stressful. Oh, and no massive debt to service either. If, and its a big if, the 1500 rule comes into EASA land, i will look on with interest at the feeding frenzy it will cause in the industry.
Cheers
CB

[darkroomsource]

As i have that many hrs, mainly command of Mr Beechcrafts fine toys, flying in very challenging areas south of the Med, but i am now classed as a novice! Now have a job in the UK, still flying Mr B's fine toys. So when do i stop being a novice? A 320/737 TR? Not for me. I shall continue to fly Mr B's fine toys, hopefully for the rest of my career, as its fun flying, not just pressing the auto pilot button.
Don't think that I called you a novice.
What I've been trying to explain here, is that 2600 hours is not much experience. It's about 2 or 3 years of actual line flying. But when compared to the rest of the world's occupations, it's like being almost finished with a university degree.
What you fly, and even how you fly, has less to do with the "value" of experience, than what you've dealt with during that time.
I don't think some of these pilots understand, that "flying is flying", that if you pass your tests, you're fairly equally qualified to "fly". But being in charge of an expensive piece of equipment, and the lives of many people, having the patience, and "wits about you", to deal with situations - that goes beyond the flying.
I think it's possible, probable even, if one has achieved 2600 hours flying at 400-500 hours per year, one has better experience than one who'd done it at 800-900 hours per year. Someone who's a little older, maybe mid 30's is more likely to have "better" experience than someone on in their mid 20's. Even with the same hours.
This whole discussion came about because it sounded (to me) like someone was claiming that with 2600 hours, they were qualified to fly for the majors, and were complaining that there were all these "type rated" pilots who were taking all the jobs because maybe they'd done pay to fly, and when were all these type rated pilots going to be gone, so the truly qualified 2600 hour pilots could get jobs at the majors.
So, if you've got 2600 hours, you're not a novice, but your not qualified to fly 737's either. (although due to some strange blip in the supply/demand curve, many pilots with less than that found themselves flying "big iron" a few years ago - and the industry is still realing from it)

[Bealzebub]

Experience has a number of definitions, but in this context it is simply an abstract. It is like a rainbow, in that it is pretty to look at, it happens, but it is impossible to touch or define when it actually happened.

Experience, seems to occur at some hazy period, when you later realize that no matter how much of it you think you have, it will never be enough to afford you the luxury of believing you can rely on it.

[VJW]

Hello

First I'd like to apologise to the mods- not sure where this kind of query belongs. What I do know, is the kind of people normally stalking Terms and Endearment are the kind of people I think best suited to this topic.

I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine, and we were talking about experience gained during flying. The outcome of which had him thinking I was crazy, and had me almost convinced of the same.

He argued that experience is purely down to logbook hours, and the more you had the more experienced you were. I was of the opinion that this is necessarily the case, and that a 5000 hour Captain could be just as well suited to a non normal (or even normal) situations as a 10000 hour Captain-

I argued that a guy flying long haul for instance logging 10 hours per sector of which they are only doing one landing in every two sectors (for arguments sake) is less experience then a guy flying 4 sectors logging 10 hours and doing 2 landings (other guy doing the other two).

Am I going crazy?

[Tooloose]

No..........

[Rote_8]

The definition of 'Experience' depends on your standpoint.

Potential employers compare pilots by number of flying hours.

But isn't experience to do with variety (of routes, destinations, types, etc.) as well as hours? Quality, as well as quantity.

You could arguably include those flights where you lost half your electrics / hydraulics / a powerplant just after V1 in your own personal portfolio of 'Experience'.

[757_Driver]

I don't think its simplistic either way. Yes you argualby get more expierence flying multi sector days than the occasional long haul sector, however you also have to balance the environment.
Multi sector flying bouncing from ILS to ILS in europe in a high quality radar controlled environment, is probably not more 'experience' than a single long haul sector ending in a procedural NPA's in the arse end of the planet with all manner of weather / terrain and other issues.
All I do know is that when something goes bang and the world starts falling apart you probably cannot have enough experience!

[darkroomsource]

I think these past few posts have all been in line with my way of thinking.To quote John and Martha King, who I know are quoting someone else, I just don't know who, experience comes from making bad decisions.I don't necessarily agree that all experience comes from making bad decisions, but I do believe that experience comes from, well, experience, not from doing X hours.However someone who has low hours is less likely to have experienced as many situations that require decisions beyond, "What's the next frequency?"So, over time a person can accumulate significant experience, both flying and life, without having achieved as many hours as someone else with the same experiences, just because they've encountered different circumstances.Someone who flies in the Pacific Northwest, for example, is more likely to have real actual IFR time than someone who flies in Southern California. And flying in the real thing is definitely not the same thing as flying in sumulated IFR. So, someone with, say 50 hours of actual IFR might be considered more experienced than someone with 200 hours simulated, but no actual, or with 200 hours where it's only flying through very thin layers, and logging point 1 IFR per flight.And that's why I've been trying to point out that we should be looking at more than how many hours, especially when it's less than about 10,000. Because at about 10,000 hours, you're looking at someone who most likely has 10 years experience, plus a few years training. Whereas someone with only 2500 hours, has not really finished "training" yet. So it's important to look at the quality of hours for lower times.

[Sciolistes]

VJW,

I argued that a guy flying long haul for instance logging 10 hours per sector of which they are only doing one landing in every two sectors (for arguments sake) is less experience then a guy flying 4 sectors logging 10 hours and doing 2 landings (other guy doing the other two).

I'm not so sure. Experiece isn't just what you have done, but also careful consideration of what you might need to do. In otherwords, experience can be expressed as decions (good and bad). Flying long haul has its challenges, ETOPS, critical points, etc. A non normal in the middle of the ocean may require a cricial decision with no opportunity to backtrack. Short haul is more intense, but the decisions are usually no brainers with plenty of fat in the system and more alternates than you can shake a stick at.

On balance I agree with your friend, hours are hours.

[Airbus Girl]

I think the poster who mentioned variety is correct. I could spend 10,000 hours flying London to Paris in one type of aircraft, doing 4 sectors a day. I am sure I would learn alot about that route and those airports. That doesn't make me experienced though. Experienced on that route yes, but give that person a Luton to Corfu 2 sector day on a typical summer's night and I wouldn't say their hours would hold them in good stead. On the other hand, a 2000 hour pilot who has been flying different routes at different times of day and night, had a few tech problems, flown plenty of non precision approaches, dealt with dodgy ATC, etc. and I think that they would handle a new route/ airport/ diversion/ emergency better than the previous pilot, despite the discrepancy in hours.

[Sciolistes]

I could spend 10,000 hours flying London to Paris in one type of aircraft, doing 4 sectors a day.
I would voluntarily jump into a jet engine rather than do that :\

[Golf-Sierra]

if you were working for an accounting firm, you might still be on probation with 2600 hours accounting experience. Especially since the first 250 or so were your training, which for an accountant took FOUR YEARS at university. Based on that, you're still a sophmore at school.



Come on, have you ever been to uni? Of those 4 years, most of it was spent having a good time, or if the person was unlucky - working in some kind of job to pay for the tuition and board. The work was mainly struggling not sleep through lectures amd maybe a few intensive weeks before exams. The 200hr guy also had to spend lots of time preparing for exams. I'm sure it takes a lot fo time to prepare for and pass all the PPL and ATPL exams.

Accountant - come on - the only time you ever face any challlenge is during month end (2 days), year end (1 week) and perhaps during an audit (also a week). The rest is just mundane tasks you can really master to perfection in a couple of days. So - for any given calendar year your accountant is really gaining experience for at the most 6 weeks.

I know of a few people who have set up and steered to success their own accounting firms, or have become chief accountants within less then a year of graduating. It all depends on the market.

[darkroomsource]

Come on, have you ever been to uni? Of those 4 years, most of it was spent having a good time, or if the person was unlucky - working in some kind of job to pay for the tuition and board. The work was mainly struggling not sleep through lectures amd maybe a few intensive weeks before exams. The 200hr guy also had to spend lots of time preparing for exams. I'm sure it takes a lot fo time to prepare for and pass all the PPL and ATPL exams.

Accountant - come on - the only time you ever face any challlenge is during month end (2 days), year end (1 week) and perhaps during an audit (also a week). The rest is just mundane tasks you can really master to perfection in a couple of days. So - for any given calendar year your accountant is really gaining experience for at the most 6 weeks.

I know of a few people who have set up and steered to success their own accounting firms, or have become chief accountants within less then a year of graduating. It all depends on the market.

Yes, I have a Bachelors. And I've done some work towards my masters. And I've been to seminary. And no, not MOST of it was spent having fun. And it definitely was not as much fun as learning to fly.
And I'd say it's easier to pass the CPL, ATPL, CFI, CFII, MEL, MEI, CMEI exams than it was to pass some of my high school exams, and not as easy as some of my University exams, so I'd put them somewhere on a par.

But going back to the point, it's not about the day-to-day experience being an accountant, a programmer, a manager, a pilot, or any other profession, but rather about how you handle the exceptions.

You can write thousands of lines of code as a programmer, but if you can't debug a system critical application at 3 in the morning while the entire factory is shut down and loosing hundreds of thousands of dollars per minute, then you don't have true experience.

You can pass all your pilot exams, and be more talented in the airplane than Patty Wagstaff, but if can't handle a simple autopilot problem - see the recent news - then you're not truly experienced.

Again, we don't pay pilots to fly the plane, we pay pilots to handle the exceptions.

There are always exceptions, but it's not possible to believe that every 2000 hour pilot is as qualified as every 20,000 hour pilot.

[Brakefire]

Thats because the US commercial aviation exams are a joke compared to other ICAO countries.:O

[yippy ki yay]

Come on, have you ever been to uni? Of those 4 years, most of it was spent having a good time, or if the person was unlucky - working in some kind of job to pay for the tuition and board. The work was mainly struggling not sleep through lectures amd maybe a few intensive weeks before exams. The 200hr guy also had to spend lots of time preparing for exams. I'm sure it takes a lot fo time to prepare for and pass all the PPL and ATPL exams.

Accountant - come on - the only time you ever face any challlenge is during month end (2 days), year end (1 week) and perhaps during an audit (also a week). The rest is just mundane tasks you can really master to perfection in a couple of days. So - for any given calendar year your accountant is really gaining experience for at the most 6 weeks.

I know of a few people who have set up and steered to success their own accounting firms, or have become chief accountants within less then a year of graduating. It all depends on the market.

I'm sorry but you are talking complete and utter bull. You must be thinking of an accounts assistant or maybe a purchase ledger clerk etc. when you say "you can master it in a couple of days". These people are not accountants in any shape or form.

I assume you are english? upon graduating from university you need to obtain a training contract with a firm to train to be an accountant, you need to qualify to be an accountant by studying either the ACCA, ACA or CIMA, these take 3 years of training on the job and taking ten or so exams at the same time. So for you to say you know people who have have become chief accountants within a year is the biggest amount of :mad: I've ever heard. Please know something about a topic before trying to be an expert on the matter!

[captainsuperstorm]

the real fact is:

there are no job in the aviation market.
and the very few jobs around are given to people who know someone. So there is no point to talk about experience or license you have , because nobody care of experience any more. it s a free market, free world , where everything is authorized. you can pay a pilot 1$ an hour, or take chinese and ask them to sleep on the floor....ask copilots to poo in a plastic bag on cargo planes(Yes I did it), etc.

This market is fully f#$%^ and we got it in the brown hole. if you tell me that a pilot must have this or must do that to get a job on this or that plane..., You simply make me laugh...

the only solution is : do something else, enjoy life and forget commercial aviation like I do now.

[cyrilroy21]

The written exams might be a joke

But the practical and oral exam aint no child's play :=

[CathayBrat]

The written exams might be a joke

But the practical and oral exam aint no child's play

To bloody right, every FAA check ride i have had made me work for it, including the oral checks. True, the exams are easy, but their system is more focused on the practical side, eg, can he/she fly.
Every JAA/EASA check ride i have had was a walk in the park. But the exams are harder, and there are alot more of them. Is this because they want you to fly the books better? Maybe. I always thought the exams were a way of weeding out those not commited enough. Each system has its good and bad points, but i prefer the FAA system overall, not just the training side, even though i am now regulated by the nice chaps in the Belgrano.
Cheers

[captainsuperstorm]

some airlines in Europe use the FAA databank for written entry tests, some JAA pilots even fail these tests. 20-25% fail I would say.

for me, it s a lack of real understanding. We have in europe too many pilots who got their license just by studying the questions/answers.

[yippy ki yay]

Where did you get that 20-25% jaa pilots fail written tests??....out of curiosity

[atpcliff]

Hi!

There are TONS of jobs for pilots now, and the shortage is accelerating steadily. Every month it gets worse for HR. I am GLAD I am NOT HR, especially in the next 5 years!!!

[dan1165]

What drugs are u using ? :E

[Wirbelsturm]

Again, we don't pay pilots to fly the plane, we pay pilots to handle the exceptions.


Bugger, that's where I've been going wrong all these years (+25 now).

I guess then that all my years as a Search and Rescue Captain must have been one huge, long exception then. :(

Pilots are paid to fly the aircraft as, even with all the new sophisticated gadgetry in the front, the automatic systems cannot cope with every variable that good old mother nature can throw at us. Not exceptions but just the inability of any logic system to be able to cope with potentially infinite variables and the wish to portray a comfortable flight to the paying guests.

Unlike accountants, programmers, lawyers, doctors etc. a pilot or the pilots are sometimes in the uneviable position where a screw up/misunderstood warning or complex multiple failures will result in something a little more catestrophic than a messed up balance sheet or an angry Factory owner. Doctors generally only get the change to kill one person at a time, pilots have the ability to do it by the hundreds.

Experience is a double edged sword. In my experience (!!!!) many failings in the past, including CFIT and routine systems failures have been caused by contempt and familiarity bred from routine and the ability to portray a malfunction as 'normal'. The junior Co, with his fresh, enthusiastic approach to aviation has often been the saviour of the crusty experienced Captain (Sadly I include myself in this comment!) as systems failures seem less complex to the Co than the Captain and the ability to feed accurate information from the system into the Captains decision making process is imperitive.

There is room for all levels in aviation it is just beholden upon the schedulers to ensure that the sum of the cockpit experience level doesn't dip too far.

Generally it has been well controlled in the past and will, hopefully, be so in the future.

WS.

Still hand flying, still being paid to fly. Even an Airbus without the damn computers is still an aeroplane (just). :E

[Brakefire]

Yes, please share those drugs. Jobs galore, you must be in pilot heaven.!!:D

[captainsuperstorm]

this market is dead due to : fuel cost, volcano ash, plane costs, training cost, ice, delay, mechanic failure, unfair competition,...

if you look the + and the - in the balance sheets, you will see that an airline can not run efficiently anymore.
3% profit in a good time, 0% in an average time, 100% in a bad time.

airlines can loose 10 years of profit in less 1 year.In 2001, airlines have lost all their assets.Just 3 months later, some have been out of business (chapter 11).

in 2009, it was 3 times worse.

this is why we see now all these new trainings like the P2F, crazy bonding where student pay 80% of his training.

As long we stay on this track, it s going to be worse, and we need more than an increase in VAT tax , to get out of problems.

what we need, it' s jobs! but as long jobs move to China, I have no hope!

[darkroomsource]

I guess then that all my years as a Search and Rescue Captain must have been one huge, long exception then. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

Pilots are paid to fly the aircraft as, even with all the new sophisticated gadgetry in the front, the automatic systems cannot cope with every variable that good old mother nature can throw at us. Not exceptions but just the inability of any logic system to be able to cope with potentially infinite variables and the wish to portray a comfortable flight to the paying guests.

I think you and I are saying the same thing, I've just not said it as eloquently as you.
It's not about the "flying" as much as the dealing with everything that is beyond the "flying". And by that I mean nature, failures, communication problems, etc. etc. etc. And of course that's part of flying, but the average bloke with just a couple hundred hours has not seen much nature, failures or communication problems, whereas the average bloke with 20 thousand hours has seen lots of nature, failures and communication problems.

As for all your years as a Search and Rescue Captain being an exception, well, aren't you flying because of exceptions? I mean it's not the norm for a search and rescue operation to be required, so in a way, yes, your career has been one exception after another.

[Wirbelsturm]

I mean it's not the norm for a search and rescue operation to be required, so in a way, yes, your career has been one exception after another.

Ah, the chicken and egg scenario. The tasks were, indeed, exceptions. The musculature requirement to maintain the aircraft in the required postion at the required height for the required amount of time was cetrainly not. I found within the co-pilots I flew with that the ability to do those things existed in many pilots with far less 'experience' than I. Experience doesn't grant one a licence to cope with anything. Perhaps better is an intimate understanding of the equipment you fly and an instinctive ability to realise when it's going wrong. Those qualities are often the ones sought during interview and application.

As stated before I have flown with very well trained Co-Pilots who, despite their low hours in a log book, have often out performed colleagues and peers in the other seat. It often depends upon the level of training provided and the commitment of the individual receiving that training. Experience per se is extremely useful but, if the prepartation to fly is good, not always necessary.

[Golf-Sierra]

I assume you are english? upon graduating from university you need to obtain a training contract with a firm to train to be an accountant, you need to qualify to be an accountant by studying either the ACCA, ACA or CIMA, these take 3 years of training on the job and taking ten or so exams at the same time. So for you to say you know people who have have become chief accountants within a year is the biggest amount of http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif I've ever heard. Please know something about a topic before trying to be an expert on the matter!


yippy, of course this was outside of the UK. The person was on a 5 year masters course and did the examinations during the 4th and 5th years of study (and no these were not ACCA or CIMA).

I just think it is ridiculous to compare flight experience with accounting experience hour per hour.

[yippy ki yay]

I stand corrected...:oh:

[Brakefire]

The sooner BALPA challenge these idiotic CTC/PARC P2F schemes and bought type ratings for 200 hour heros, the better off we will all be.

Surely it has to be illegal somewhere with regards to how companies like RYR and EZY operate with regards to pilot hiring as this cannot be construed as equal opportunites for all.

EASA, Government.. whoever, now is the time to rid us of this poison known as CTC etc and right the wrongs of our industry:ok:

[Coffin Corner]

To be honest InTheWeeds you say sitting below 200ft agl is worth 12 x that sitting at FLxxx, but in what context? The types of flying you are talking about is like chalk and cheese. One could even say there is no relevance from one to the other (& visa versa of course). I do agree though that quality over qantity every time.

[Wirbelsturm]

Coffin Corner,

I don't think the context is too far out of phase between Low Level NOE flying and high level FL transit flying. The ability to hear/feel/sense a failure at low level is inherent in the type of flying involved. The requirement to react quickly, calmly and appropriately whilst involving the other pilot, if there, is taught and nurtured throughout the flying training in the military and pilots are selected specifically for that ability to operate in such a harsh environment.

Low level NVG NOE flying is probably some of the most difficult and dangerous out there (aside from landing, at night, darkened ops onto ships!). The requirement to deal with any malfunction quickly and logically is heightened by the proximity to the ground! That said there are very few things in a helo that will kill you instantly, pretty much like an airliner. Add to that mix that 3000-4000 hours helicopter will take you 10-15 years at the current military flying rate. Thus the external experience gathering for things outside of direct flying is far greater as Standards flights within the military include far more than that required for an LPC/OPC.

The skills honed in a short time in such an environment can be invaluable combined with other experience in the cockpit of an airliner. Trust me I know! The caveat to the above is that some people find it difficult to transition a low level, one man band skill set into the airline CRM environment. Most however don't have a problem.

Given such a scenario I, personally, would take a 3000 hour Helo pilot new to the airline game over a 3000 Cadet who has never experienced malfunctions outside of the simulator.

[Sciolistes]

Given such a scenario I, personally, would take a 3000 hour Helo pilot new to the airline game over a 3000 Cadet who has never experienced malfunctions outside of the simulator.
Anybody with 3000 hours would probably be past the cadet stage with a fair few malfunction ripping yarns to boot.

[Wirbelsturm]

Anybody with 3000 hours would probably be past the cadet stage with a fair few malfunction ripping yarns to boot.

Not really, 250+ hours for the licence and less than 3 years online at 800 hours per year.

Given the reliability of modern airliners I am aware of colleagues who have never had more than a minor, niggle malfunction outside of the simulator in years.

[Brakefire]

Well, 200 hours for license and about 750 hours a year on average would give you over 3 years experience.

When you say that is not a lot, you then have to say the same about the accountancy discussion going on a bit earlier. How much of their day is spent doing the actual high level accountancy and how much is spent at lunch, searching for porn on google, doing boring random tasks etc etc...

Experience comes in all shapes and sizes and as Airbus girl pointed out earlier, you could be a 10 000 hour captain flying Sydney to Melbourne and back, hardly makes you experienced at aviation, just experienced on that particular route

The guy that has 3000 hours on King Airs and caravans, doing actual hands on flying in remote regions of the world where airport and ATC services can be described as dodgy at best is a far more experienced and better equiped pilot to deal with emergencies than the 10000 hour guy in an airbus on autopilot flying the same route over and over.:ok:

[MIKECR]

The guy that has 3000 hours on King Airs and caravans, doing actual hands on flying in remote regions of the world where airport and ATC services can be described as dodgy at best is a far more experienced and better equiped pilot to deal with emergencies than the 10000 hour guy in an airbus on autopilot flying the same route over and over.

As much as i'd like to agree, unfortunately I cant. The emergency situation depends entirely on what the 'emergency situation' is. I have no doubt the King air Pilot will probably have far better hands on flying skills however the average emergency which may present itself, is 9 times out of ten, found in the emergency checklist. The guy with 10,000 hours in the airbus will have seen the emergency twice a year in his/her LPC/OPC sim check and will probably be able to rattle of the vital actions and subsequent checklist items faster than you ca even realise what the emergency actually is.

[shaun ryder]

Anyone can read a checklist Mike. What you are forgetting is that a caravan or king air is often flown SP. That means the pilot has to FLY the aeroplane whilst dealing with the emergency, single crew? - try that on your next OPC - unlikely. I doubt you grasp the amount of spare capacity that would be needed in this scenario, no multi crew cockpit here! Most of these guys who fly twins & hi perf singles SP for a living rehearse these scenarios pre firewalling the throttles.

They live longer that way. ;)

Don't underestimate a competent charter pilot!

As for seeing every possible emergency, twice a year in the sim? We all know that is impossible.

[MIKECR]

Shaun, I wasnt poo pooing single pilot ops. On the contrary I have the utmost respect for people who do this kind of flying. I was referring to dealing with emergencies in a typical multicrew jet. Take 2 new FO's, one straight from Gatwick with his still wet blue book, the other from his 2000 hours in a King Air, and put them both through the same Boeing/Bus TR course and give them the same SOP's and vital memory actions to learn. Which one will handle the engine failure post V1 best?? Some on here would argue without question the 2000 hour guy would deal with it better....why?

Yes, im playing devils advocate here.....,off course its the 'outside the box' situtions which crop up that the 2000 hour pilot has the experience to deal with. I dont think anyone would argue that point.

[captainsuperstorm]

charter pilot, fighter planes, bush pilot, is the way to go if you want an exciting life.
be a copilot on big jet are for pussy! How I know it, did both.

nothing better than a single pilot plane( caravan, twotter, bonanza,....), with 1 or 2 turbines, at night, full IMC, NDB approach between mountains.no gps, no radar,...

very few copilot have the ball for this kind of operation. This is why my companies do not hire big jet pilots.