Jetstar response to: How Australian is Jetstar?

[Mr. Hat]

A lot has been said of the cadets and foreign bases. Here is a pretty rare official insight/response to the article from
How Australian is Jetstar? | Article | The Punch (http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/how-australian-is-jetstar/desc/) from a few days ago.


Simon Westaway, Head of Corporate Relations, Jetstar says:

02:18pm | 23/12/10

It is disappointing that AIPA continues to promote a series of mistruths around our operations.

Why we are rapidly growing our business and our brand across Asia?Because Asia is today the world’s largest and fastest growing aviation market, and it is where Australia’s primary economic links and future lies.

Our long declared pan-Asian strategy is a unique strategy – and no other Australian airline has taken this approach to growth by building an airline business across Asia.

We are already a true pan-Asian regional airline. By example this means we are now the largest low cost airline in the region
.
Practically speaking, this means flying within Australia and New Zealand and from both these countries into numerous Asian destinations (currently numbering 52) and increasingly flying between Asian countries served from our large Singaporean hub.

There is nothing artificial about it. We are growing sustainably but quickly throughout Asia because that is where the fast growing markets are - and therefore we need Asian operational bases, and Asian-based aircraft and crews.

Quite obviously, Asia genuinely presents opportunities for Jetstar employees, no matter where they are currently based, including those based here in Australia.

The often stated AIPA position is that current Australian pilots taking up a future opportunity in Singapore will receive substandard pay rates.

This is wrong. Our pilots based in Singapore can achieve a better take home pay in comparison to our Australian pilots.

Jetstar offers our pilots the opportunity to participate in both current and future international growth.By example in recent times we have offered over 20 additional Command (Captain) positions for our Australian operations – linked to our strong growth during this financial year - delivering significant remuneration benefits and career escalation for these individuals under our collective agreement.

Since June 2010 Jetstar has had a Cadet Pilot scheme delivered by Oxford Aviation Academy (operations based in Melbourne) and CTC Aviation Group (operations based in Hamilton, NZ), two world leading Pilot training suppliers.

The Program and ‘partnership’ complements Jetstar’s other pilot recruitment activity and will assist in some of the supply of our airline’s future requirements initially for A320 pilots.

Cadet Pilots are a proven pathway around the world, and they offered tailored training and a consistent set of operational standards.

And it has been specifically tailored, through these suppliers, to deliver well trained pilots into a career flying modern jet aircraft.

Jetstar’s Cadet Pilot Program provides deep training on a standard operating procedure with Jetstar, delivering a consistency in approach in terms of high skill training and development into a commercial airline pilot.

And it is this standard operating procedure and ‘consistency in approach’ to flying operations, safety and application, that will in the future deliver even higher safety outcomes.

In total Jetstar Cadet Pilots receive 1000 hours of training and close supervisory flying, followed by 18 months of further close supervision.
Notably the Jetstar Advanced Cadet Pilot Program will directly access Pilots with significant experience of up to 1500 hours and in a majority of cases at least above 500 hours prior to entry into the Program.

Our as mentioned conservative approach will see Cadet entrants receive about twice as much training as the industry norm.

So it is simply not representative or meaningful to imply ab initio pilots receive “200 hours training”.

For the record Jetstar has currently not offered employment to any of our existing Cadet Pilots in Australia – as our existing small group of Cadets are currently employed by Jetstar New Zealand.

When Jetstar does offer contracts to Cadets in Australia, the contract will either need be our Pilot EBA or an alternative arrangement in accordance with modern award provisions.

Those Cadet Pilots who have now joined our workforce have an exciting and rewarding career ahead of them with very realistic promotion opportunities based on merit and time in service.

In conclusion, the alternative to our pan-Asian strategy is we leave these Asian markets to existing and future foreign competitors.

This will mean less growth, fewer jobs, fewer career opportunities, and over the longer term, a more vulnerable Jetstar.

For Australian pilots, our expansion is about more opportunity and more jobs not fewer.

David Hall
CEO – Australia / New Zealand, Jetstar

[The Kelpie]

This is wrong. Our pilots based in Singapore can achieve a better take home pay in comparison to our Australian pilots.

Yes if they are prepared to take the risk of being considered an Australian resident for tax purposes. If the ATO catches then out and they are on their own. Simon and David you missed that bit!!

The current JQ cadets are on illegal NZ contracts as are I suspect all other JQ pilots and those working for Jetconnect. JQ cadets are paid by the Scheduled block hour and not even actual block hours at a rate of pay equivalent to a single piston driver. They are guaranteed just 12 scheduled hours flying per week averaged over 3 months yet are expected to be rostered up to the flight and duty limits. What JQ ignored is that the Minimum Wage Act in NZ requires employees to be paid at least the minimum wage for ALL HOURS WORKED. So that is paid by duty time and not by flight time or scheduled flight time.

I did post a more in depth history of these illegal NZ contracts but the mods took it upon themselves to remove it!!

More to follow

The Kelpie

[neville_nobody]

Cadet Pilots are a proven pathway around the world

Except for the biggest aviation market in the world where they are debating a bill about increasing copilot minimum experience to 1500 hours.

In conclusion, the alternative to our pan-Asian strategy is we leave these Asian markets to existing and future foreign competitors.

I don't think APIA was suggesting this, I think the issue was that Jetstar was cherry picking what they wanted, OZ rego's on Singapore contracts, under Singapore work laws. If it was a entirely Singapore registered operation that was never a problem as far as I understood it.

[The Kelpie]

Neville

You are correct, they are exploiting the fact that the two sets of legislation are not linked and they can pick and choose whichever suit them. Those flying VH registration aircraft in commercial operations is the responsibility of the aus government and necessarily need to hold CASA ICAO licenses and ratings and should therefore have to satisfy immigration requirements of this country, otherwise it is a 'back door'.

Immigration requirements in Aus are in part enacted to ensure that Aus jobs go to australian citizens and residents so that the country can grow sustainably. Pilots of vh reg aircraft paying taxes to NZ And Singapore does not achieve this.

More to Follow

[hongkongfooey]

1000 hrs of training ? So I take it he's counting every hour of ground training because otherwise I'm pretty confident i can call him a liar .

And yes, they will be liable for Australian tax, this debacle has been well enough publisised that I am sure the ATO are aware of it.

[Sunfish]

Our long declared pan-Asian strategy is a unique strategy – and no other Australian airline has taken this approach to growth by building an airline business across Asia.


...And as soon as Asia has no further use for Qantas money, you will be eased out.

[Fuel-Off]

No matter how much you polish a turd...

Fuel-Off :ok:

[The Kelpie]

Hong Kong

Yes the 1,000 hours does include all the ground theory training. Westaway just relies on the ignorance of the public to believe otherwise.

This spin doctoring needs to be exposed in the public domain!!

[TBM-Legend]

welcome to the global village. I don't see you asking how Australian are mining companies [or the Federal Govt at Embassies] that employ local labour in their various overseas enterprises....

[The Kelpie]

TBM

that is a totally different situation.

The Australian government are not responsible for overseas mines. They are responsible for VH registered aircraft wherever they are.

If JQ was to re-register their SG based aircraft in Singapore there would not be a problem as they would be an entirely foreign airline to do as they wish with no responsibility on the Australian government.

[Mr. Hat]

this debacle has been well enough publisised that I am sure the ATO are aware of it.if not give them a buzz i'm sure they happy to hear about it.

This spin doctoring needs to be exposed in the public domain!!"The Punch" is pretty public. Members of the public have posted there. Have read some of the posts and its clear a few people are catching on. The recent QF incident brings it home. Add a Senate enquiry and a what would have been a sacking of whistleblower and hey presto people catch on alright.

Australian are mining companiesGreat you mention mining - maybe commensurate wages..like to see how the miners would cope if we brought in some third world workers on $42000 and then reduce the full wage workers' opportunities. That might make the news!

[Jabawocky]

When Jetstar does offer contracts to Cadets in Australia, the contract will either need be our Pilot EBA or an alternative arrangement in accordance with modern award provisions.

Can someone explain what my bolding means ?:ouch:

[The Kelpie]

I guess it is just emphasizing that they will not be employed by what we currently recognize as the company known as Jetstar Australia. Otherwise they would be bound by the EBA.

It will be interesting to see whether that will be the case - I hope so as it will mean that the cadets should receive an approx. 100% increase to their NZ package. ....unless of course they follow the example of National Jet!!!

More to follow

The kelpie

[neville_nobody]

Great you mention mining - maybe commensurate wages..like to see how the miners would cope if we brought in some third world workers on $42000 and then reduce the full wage workers' opportunities. That might make the news!

This already happens. Mining company sub contracts labour contract to a multinational, multinational sends in a work team from [Insert Name of Third World Country Here] who get all their accommodation/food etc supplied, once the job is finished they are moved on to somewhere else.

Similar to what Jetstar do with International Flight attendants to a certain extent.

[Twitter n Bisted]

The Kelpie...
This is wrong. Our pilots based in Singapore can achieve a better take home pay in comparison to our Australian pilots.
Yes if they are prepared to take the risk of being considered an Australian resident for tax purposes. If the ATO catches then out and they are on their own. Simon and David you missed that bit!!

Mr Hat..
this debacle has been well enough publisised that I am sure the ATO are aware of it.
if not give them a buzz i'm sure they happy to hear about it.


I am puzzled about your issues with the ATO, Non citizen for tax etc. There are literally 1000s of Autralians living in SIN for Australian companies being paid in Australian $ into Australian bank accounts whom are None residents for tax purposes. Its common.
While there many pros and cons in being a “None Resident” for tax reasons they should be investigated to see what best suites the individual… Its not all bad.
If you are referring to the Tax law changed by Labor under Rudd. It did not affect the expats one bit. (once it was fully understood)


If JQ was to re-register their SG based aircraft in Singapore there would not be a problem as they would be an entirely foreign airline to do as they wish with no responsibility on the Australian government.

Thats exactly what I am hearing is going to happen to the 787. The amount of OZ based Jet* managers (over 12) in SIN over the last few months has to be more than an Audit.

[Mr. Hat]

Twitter, I'm not the tax expert - not my area, Kelpie raised it.

Neville, well in that case there is the answer.. pretty obvious! Jetstar are on a winner.

[Captahab]

Anyone like to hazard a guess as to where they are going to employ the flighties for the "Aust" operation from Darwin to Manila.

Clue - they are too expensive if we employ them under Aussie rules.

Second part, do you think they will only be used on Darwin - Manila.

Enjoy !

[Mr. Hat]

They've been employing FA's from third world countries for quite some time. Caught my one and only Jetstar flight last year (only because QF and VB had no flights at a suitable time) Adelaide-Brisbane and 2 of the flight attendants were definitely from a country far far away. They looked absolutely beside themselves with tiredness. I felt like offering them my seat for a sleep. It was very sad. Our government is a strong supporter of sweat shops. Keep the wages down he/she says.

It was very interesting to watch the interaction between the local FA's and the foreign ones. I.e. NIL.

[TBM-Legend]

gee I flew on QF the other day [morning flight BNE-SYD] and two of the FA's looked like they just got out of bed with no time to spare [grumpy as well]...

[alidad]

?Cadet Pilots receive 1000 hours of training and close supervisory flying".

This must have been written by someone who chalks up a "quick read:eek:" of a Zoo magazine as a sexual exploit.

I think he might have been blinded by the experience........:=

[Jabiman]

Cadet Pilots are a proven pathway around the world, and they offered tailored training and a consistent set of operational standards.

Probably true but should they be in the RHS ahead of experienced aviators in a nation where there remains a large pool to draw upon?

[Tempo]

gee I flew on QF the other day [morning flight BNE-SYD] and two of the FA's looked like they just got out of bed with no time to spare [grumpy as well]...

I went for breakfast the other day and the waitress looked tired and was grumpy. Shock horror!!!

What the hell is your point TBM? If it was a morning flight they probably did just get out of bed.

[Capt Kremin]

The Jetstar response is a classic case of dissembling.

Their quote of So it is simply not representative or meaningful to imply ab initio pilots receive “200 hours training”. is simple misdirection. That is not what was said. PVDH's article referred to 200 hours of flying. If you believe the Jetstar response then these cadets are going to have 1000 hours of flying followed by close supervision.

That is not true. They will have 200 hours of flying when they first fly with paying passengers. The other 800 hours comes from ground training as part of the course and counts for virtually nothing in the real world.

It should read, "these pilots will have 200 hours flying followed by close supervision of training captains on revenue flights."

[L1011]

Cadets are here to stay. Get over the angst and deal with the fact.

Low time trainees have been flying revenue trips for airlines for many years all over the world.

Not only in 'Third-world' countries, unless you think that the UK belongs in that category.

Actually.........they play good cricket these days, so maybe they are an Asian country after all. :rolleyes:

[Jabiman]

Cadets are here to stay
The FAA has just about eliminated them from the US and with any luck the senate will do the same here :ok:

[MELKBQF]

Just spoke to my niece, she works at JQs call centre in MEL. She loses her job in weeks, the call centre has been outsourced to India.

[Artificial Horizon]

MELKBQF,

that is a shame for her, but how does this differ from 99% of the other businesses in the country and/or world?

[rodchucker]

AH,

You miss the point. Companies can make these decisions but it is up to consumers as to whether they accept them.

Same issue re cadets. If consumers have a choice they should stand up and be counted as long as they are prepared to pay for the experience.

Where is JB with this, there is an obvious marketing point here....we only employ pilots with minimum 2000 hours and I reckon game could be over, right or wrong.

Differentiation from the competition.

Forget CASA because if they were interested, they would be in this debate already.

[gobbledock]

Forget CASA because if they were interested, they would be in this debate already.
Problem is this - Technically the regulator regulates, enforces the rules and ICAO SARP's and if the rules allow (for example only) - A third rate driver from a third world country to fly a passenger jet with a handful of hours under his belt then there is very little that can be done to change it. Simple.
Now don't PM me with hate mail as I also think the current tolerability is dangerous, at least the FAA could smell the writing on the wall and introduced changes. But as for CASA, well technically as long as the airline isn't breaking the law then they wont get involved.

[rodchucker]

Gobbledock,

Fair point but bureaucrats have a responsibility for policy and cannot always hide behind the rules. Take APRA re banking for example, they take heed of offshore (eg Basel Committee) and then adapt by reference to other international regulators and the actual experience plus the sleep well at night test.

Why doesn't someone ask them why they are smarter than FAA and see what they have to say. Suspect the silence would be deafening.

Then we get back to Senate and there is no reason why they cannot/should not ask the same question.

The fact that there is bad legislation/regulation should not blind us from the bleeding obvious or allow those responsible to shirk their responsibility.

This is a pivotal point for the industry and if those involved do not stand to be counted then consumers should do so.

[LeadSled]

They CASA)are responsible for VH registered aircraft wherever they are.Kelpie,

Not quite true, I am afraid. the Civil Aviation Act 1988 makes provision for Australia to sign an 83bis agreement, in this case meaning that VH- aircraft could be based in and operate under CAAS rules ------ if there is an 83bis agreement in place between AU and SIN to cover that aircraft.

This is a common ICAO based arrangement.

Equally, validating non- AU pilot licenses to crew the aeroplanes (whether in AU or SIN) represents no obstacle.

Tootle pip!!

[smilingknife]

Here is an idea. If Onestar are so intent on exporting Australian jobs to the ghettos of the world then why don't they start with the mouthpiece in a suit- Westaway.
There are thousands of media graduates in India who would happily do his vacuous job for 10% of what the board is paying this rent a voice.

[Cactusjack]

smilingknife, excellent idea. Why don't they outsource all senior management roles to India ? Or give senior roles to uni graduates or Year 12 leavers, that way they keep an even flow throughout the organisation. Senior roles should also be salaried at third world rates as well. I mean if a Pilot doesnt need a lot of experience or hours under his belt then neither does a senior manager, after all, how hard can it be to drink Mochacino's while writing your own bottomless pay cheque ?

[exmexican]

Is it automatically assumed that someone from a "third world country" is only capable of third rate work? My father-in-law recently gained a crew of Phillipino welders in the country Vic sheet metal works he is employed at. After initial scepticism, he acknowledges they do an excellent job, are happy to come to work, friendly, and pleasantly lacking in less desireable Australian work ethics.

[DrPepz]

I have been in India quite often the past few months, and the graduate team members of my company's partner in India are no more or less capable than the average Singaporean or Australian graduate. And they only earn US$500 a month. That's pretty scary isn't it. They write well, present well, have excellent research and communications skills.....

Generally people in poorer countries have more drive and hunger to break out of the poverty trap. When Singapore was poor 40 years ago, my parents' generation had that huge drive to get educated and work hard to break out of the poverty cycle. Most of my parents' friends born from 1945 to 1960 had terribly impoverished childhoods, but nearly all of them today lead a very Western-level middle class lifestyle.

Then you have the people born in the 1970s and 80s who complain about foreigners stealing their jobs and why do they have to work so hard etc. Hey in SIN you have 6 days of child care leave for each kid under 12 (for women workers) and 6 days for fathers (flat) on top of 20 days of leave.

Not that I would personally complain about it if I had kids, but as my father said, when I was growing up and I was ill, he just took it out of his annual leave. These days parents get "extra" days of leave to tend to their children.

On a personal level it is great of course. But there are always those Indians who are as capable, earning $500 a month. So what would an MNC do?

Unfortunately, rapid economic development tends to give a society a huge sense of entitlement. (And I am guilty of it too).

[Jabiman]

But there are always those Indians who are as capable, earning $500 a month. So what would an MNC do?
Maybe not so capable:
Testing India's graduates: The engineering gap | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/15393732?story_id=15393732)
According to the company, only 4.2% of India’s engineers are fit to work in a software product firm, and just 17.8% are employable by an IT services company, even with up to six months’ training. A larger share could cope in business-process outsourcing (call centres and the like). These findings are even gloomier than the 25% figure for employability that has been bandied about since 2005, when McKinsey released the results of a survey of international companies.

[the-flying-z]

You can beat on your chests all you like about this Cadet Program but I think its here to stay....

Word is an ACP Program is starting in March.....

2 Pilots in the class.....

What to do, what to do????

[KRUSTY 34]

I don't know.

If you think the prospect of earning $50K P/A after drowning yourself in a $200K debt, and having that meagre income slashed in half due to salary sacrifice, all the while being entrusted with the controls of a domestic airliner, is a viable proposition, then go right ahead. :rolleyes: That is of course if there is a job waiting for you at the end of training? If not, then maybe you can beat your own chest about something.

We all have start somewhere, but I'm sorry my friend, the Jetstar Cadetship is the most shortsighted, cynical and evil scheme ever to come from the minds of the too clever by half been-counter brigade.

Join it at your peril

[The Kelpie]

A course of 2!!

Does anybody know how many cadets have been accepted onto the course so far? Six months in it seems a long way of the 70 per year in the initial press release. Maybe the 70 includes the Asian Cadets who get a course with substantially more content for significantly less dollars!!

Imho anyone who starts a cadet course prior to the outcome of the senate enquiry seriously puts into question whether their attitude to risk is appropriate to become a professional pilot.

Ps Krusty. I understand there is no salary sacrifice for the repayment of training costs. Repayments are made after tax!!

From the JQ cadetship FAQ section of the CTC website

How do I pay back the Jet Star loan?
You will pay back the loan to Jet Star over a period of 6 years. This repayment will be paid out of your post tax salary.

[#1AHRS]

Its been happening in the northern hemisphere for a while. Ten year ago I flew for a UK operator and a lot of the F/O's were CAP 509 (think that was the number) which meant they could get their CPL's at 150 hours. I didn't fly with F/O's that low but flew with a couple around the 200 mark. They flew OK considering their experience.

It was a tough road for them, they signed on and the company set up a bank loan for their type ratings that was in the individuals name and then left them with the repayments. Some only stayed a year and moved on to larger aircraft and I heard stories of guys paying two or more loans off while still getting paid stuff all. Was it worth it?

It wasn't a cadetship as such, but it was certainly a way of filling the RHS at a cheap cost and guys who had the appropriate coin got a good kickstart to their careers. Back then the UK was short of drivers. I have heard that some are now jet commanders now days and doing quite well.

Its certainly a different story in Aussie where there is, and always has been, a distinct bottleneck between GA and the airlines. This is the reason that you should be fighting this one, unless you all want to stay in GA for the rest of your lives.

[the-flying-z]

Krusty34 you cynical **** I meant what can the industry do.......?

You're to busy bashing..... I'll just keep flying mate!

[blow.n.gasket]

So let me get this straight.
Qantas Mainline now effectively quarantined.
Quantifiable requirements ensconced in the Qantas Sale Act to prevent Qantas Off-shoring itself (read jobs).
A greenfield entity called Jetstar created to lower costs and compete more effectively.
Growth, all growth? now through Jetstar.
Jetstar a part of the Qantas group (when it suits them?)
Why isn't Jetstar contrained to the same extent as Qantas when it comes to off-shoring its functions overseas as per the Sale Act?
Either Jetstar is a part of Qantas or it isn't?

[Angle of Attack]

Either Jetstar is a part of Qantas or it isn't?

It is when it is convenient DOH!

Remember the A330 engine failure few weeks back? They said it was just received by QANTAS and QANTAS Engineers are investigating the problem.

Any issue with Jetstar it is always QANTAS engineers inspecting them.

Basically it is a seperate company but lives like a parasite, always some blood to suck when PR requires it! :ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

Sorry AoA,
obviously my rhetorical question didn't resonate enough rhetoric.
However ,serious question this time.
Is Jetstar beholden to the "Qantas Sale Act"?

I'm aware of the seperate entity argument, however if push came to shove just how "separate" would they actually be proven ,to be?

[airtags]

gasket

JQ as an entity (asset) is no more subject to the Act than Snap Fresh Frozen Foods (another Q catering spin off)....the real issue is that the Act can prescribe Q's shareholding (in part) but the Q Sale Act does not control the route approvals (IASC).

Q can gift sell or xfer assets or capex to JQ irrespective of the Act - sadly and scarily, Q can also give JQ (any or all) its routes. In fact EVERY QF international route approval is subject to route flexing options wherein the use of approved capacity can be utilised by:
"Qantas Airways Limited, Jetstar Airways P/L, or another majority owned subsiduary of the Qantas Group"

The latter (more recent) unnamed entity in the route approval changes suggests that even the "orange cancer" theorists will need to pay close attention to the future corporate mutations.

For me the Sale Act is reasonably clear and tested. The IASC's delegated decision making however offers far less certainty and could be a lethal red rat trap

AT :E

PS: Jane the former delivery architect of this panama flag style strategy is now doing the same at Virgin (is the route Vaus, DJ, PBA-NZ or PBA-Aus??? )

[KRUSTY 34]

You are absolutely correct the-flying-z. I am cynical, but the reference was made to the J* cadetship, not cadets in general. Not quite sure about the **** though! FYI I fly daily with ex Cadets (now F/O's) and if the program is done professionally and equitably, I have no issue with it.

For your third post perhaps you could be just a little clearer as to whether you are contemplating joining the J* scheme, pondering what action should be taken to counter it, or just sitting on the fence.

I may be a cynic, and my powers of clairvoyance may have diminished, but that probably comes from the fact that I have been in this game longer than you have been alive! :rolleyes:

Crikey Kelpie. After Tax!

It's worse than I thought!

[gobbledock]

Is Jetstar beholden to the "Qantas Sale Act"?
I'm aware of the seperate entity argument, however if push came to shove just how "separate" would they actually be proven ,to be?

Interesting question. I imagine the 'Group solicitors' would have this one written down in ink or blood somewhere, but I have no doubt that QF have this one covered.
Interesting though that when the GFC bit in Virgin Blue shifted some staff straight over to VA, yet only months prior DJ was making it clear that both companies were completely seperate and in no way linked. Hard to transfer staff between two totally unconnected companies isn't it ? All those CEO's and senior managers in the 'individual' companies is really just a farce then isn't it, a way to have mates dropped into plum roles when they are in fact not required.

[Mstr Caution]

The Senate Enquiry had a joint submission from Qantas / Jetstar, that's an indication as to how distinct the two entities are!