FCO ATC

[ppd]

Yesterday they managed 2 take off from 25 when about 10 aircrafts landed on 16R.
More than 15' n°1 at the holding point, and aircrafts piling up on taxiway B.
Surely they can do better, like managing the aircrafts arriving on 16R to permit departure between each landing.
No fun working in FCO.:\

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Spoken from the comfort of your home in the UK?

Have you ever asked to visit the ATC unit at Fiumicino to discuss things with them and see their side of the operation?

[ppd]

Yes I agree with you Heathrow director.
I have visited a few ATC units in the past 30 years, but if they can managed a good flow elsewhere, even most of the time with one runway...why can't they in Roma?
I know.....go and talked to them.
I will give it a go in january. :)

[TheNoFlyZone]

Since the intersection is so far from the threshold of runway 25, it is very hard to properly "shoot the gap" especially if APP control is squeezing in the planes 3 miles apart on 16R. You would need a good 5-6 nm separation on 16R to safely depart in between 2 arrivals.

Was 16L being used at that time? Why wasn't APP control offloading some inbounds on 16L?

Thenoflyzone

[ppd]

Yes, 16L was used at the time.......but everyday guys asked 16R to be closer to their stands.

[cossack]

So they land 16L and depart 25 and because those that want 16R for convenience aren't refused, all departures are delayed? :ouch:
I wonder how many in that departure line had asked for and been given 16R on their way in and then complained about the departure line.:rolleyes:
Solution: Say no to all 16R requests unless there are no departures that will be delayed.

[berniecta]

Fiume twr has 2 phases to permit or deny 16R operations. During "hub in" arrivals on both RWY are welcomed to ease the pressure on the arrival sequence even though there are still some departures to be handled. On the other hand, in "hub out" operations non landing will be accepted on 16R has it would otherwise delay the flow of departing aircraft.

[figair]

As a regular user my feeling is that in FCO there is a tendency to give priority to Alitalia.
This causes the regular caos of long queues on departure effecting mainly the others.

In fact the two flow mentioned above are regulated by the amount of alitalia traffic on departure and on arrival.
Once the line of departing Alitalia is sorted there is a tendency to favour more landings on 16R.

Unfortunately this and other discrimination will continue to happen as long as the airport's owner is also Alitalia's owner and the owner of the land surrounding the airport.

On my view too much conflict of interest and politics involved on this issue which have fed an already ill culture of clientelism.
FA

[criss]

In fact the two flow mentioned above are regulated by the amount of alitalia traffic on departure and on arrival.

Surprise, surprise. Of course it would make more sense to regulate it according to number of Delta Connection flights...

Is Alitalia also the owner of FCO TWR?

[deci]

Once the line of departing Alitalia is sorted there is a tendency to favour more landings on 16R

correct version:

Once the line of departing is sorted there is a tendency to favour more landings on 16R

[figair]

Surprise, surprise. Of course it would make more sense to regulate it according to number of Delta Connection flights...

Is Alitalia also the owner of FCO TWR?

theoretically it should be regulated in terms of "first arrived first served" not get Alitalia away then everybody can hold while favouring 16R landings.

ADR (aeroporti di Roma), Alitalia, Maccarese SPA, Gemina SPA have all a common denominator: Benetton. In the real European world this is called conflict of interests and should not permitted as it is illegal

Once the line of departing is sorted there is a tendency to favour more landings on 16R

I would have no problem if it was a professional and indiscriminate planned system instead of the standard taking care of the locals.

This kind of culture, on my personal experience, is standard and unique to some Rome (FCO) old school air traffic controllers who still are convinced that Alitalia is paying their salary. It would be nice if they got a taste of what happened a few years ago in MXP.

[Vld1977]

theoretically it should be regulated in terms of "first arrived first served" not get Alitalia away then everybody can hold while favouring 16R landings.

I am no ATCO or pilot, and I was only reading this thread out of curiosity, but every time I read something similar to this, I can´t help recalling a conversation I had with a UK tower controller during a visit to an airport tower.

He basically said that foreign airlines´pilots always complain of ATC favouring local airlines, when it should be a case of "first come first served". He pointed out that that is not how it works, and that they organise departures depending on where they are going to. Like, north departure, east departure, south departure, then north again, east, etc, in order to separate traffic and have some organisation. He say that´s why they would make some people wait and give preference to other traffic. He also said that, as a very high percentage of the traffic in the airfield consists of local airlines, it was very likely that the aircraft that has been told to take off before you, while you are told to wait, happens to be one from a local airline, which are the majority. He insisted that the preference was given for operational and traffic management reasons, but that most of the controllers of big airports around the world are accused wrongly of giving preference to national airlines.

Well, as I said, I´m no expert, but it made sense that for whatever reasons, if another aircraft goes before you, there are high chances that it´s going to be a local airline aircraft, as they are the majority. It´s a case of probability. Say, for example, in LHR, there is a very high probability that the aircraft that´s making you wait will be BA, Virgin or BMI, as they constitute a very high percentage of the traffic there.

Any ATCOs would like to comment on this? Was he telling me the truth?

[deci]

Any ATCOs would like to comment on this? Was he telling me the truth?affirm :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

VLd1977... You are absolutely right. ATC often has to change the take-off order for a variety of reasons which go against the first-come-first-served principle. First at the holding point might have 5 minutes to wait for his en-route slot so 2-3 others may go ahead. In the approach phase, aircraft types are juggled to achieve the best landing rate which may not be on f-c-f-s basis.

[figair]

HD this is all very true and I experience it regularly in most of the places I fly to however; FCO is a different ball game.

I am aware of certain FCO constraints in terms of parking spaces and flow management but, it seems to me that their main objective is to juggle all Alitalia's departures and arrivals then the others.

As a general rule every airline has to hold on B and give way to the Alitalia coming from N or P then when the line of a/c from intersection N to the full length has only other airliners you can see the Alitalia's departing from intersection BB.