Flying Maule to Egypt, then Kenya - help needed.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi,

A friend has a G registered Maule MXT (non tailwheel) which he would like to fly down to Nairobi. He'd do it as an add-on to our Safari in February.

He is looking for:

Someone (2?) to fly the machine UK-Egypt without him (early Feb).
Someone to fly with him Egypt-Kenya (10-20 Feb)

They could be the same or different person (s).

Financially:

UK-Egypt; crew is responsible for all direct costs (fuel, landings, food etc.), he would cover maintenance, insurance, flight permit Egypt, etc.

Egypt-Kenya, costs shared between him and the other pilot.

If anyone is interested, could they EMAIL me (no PMs please), and I will forward your email to him.

Hope this fits for someone!

Safe flights, Sam.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi, just to clarify (!).

Financials as per my first post , emails only please, no PM.

If you want to do some incredible flying for much cheaper than it would usually be (ie no ownership or rental costs) then this is a grand plan. If you are after a freebie, then it's not going to work I'm afraid.

Thanks, Sam.



I could add that you can fly out with the group of aircraft, thus reducing any navigation etc. worries. We'll be with the group, hot-seating any aircraft who would like a helping hand (even from the back seat).

[Pace]

About ? £1000 in costs for the aircraft to fly to Egypt plus hotels return airfares etc?

Sam do you have estimated costs that the pilot will have to pay for the trip all in ?

Pace

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi Pace,

GBP1000 per person if two, GBP1500 if solo I would guesstimate.

Egypt-Nairobi is going to be in the order of GBP5-7K per person.

[AfricanEagle]

B@gger. I have already booked and paid for a vacation mid February otherwise I would have been more than willing :{

[007helicopter]

Sam - email sent.

[Sam Rutherford]

I thought I would quickly resurrect this thread - to say that the owner is still looking.

Additionally, it's worth speaking to him about other dates. Although the Feb dates tie in with our Safari - if that doesn't work then he'll be looking to do it a little later, so...

Safe flights all in 2011!

Sam.

[Arcturas]

Hi Sam, I have read your post/request and although unable to offer a pilot for either legs I am able to offer a way of cutting down on your costs whilst in Egypt. We are a small voluntary organisation called G.A.S.E. (General Aviation Services Egypt) and use the services, knowledge and abilities of a host of aviation professionals and enthusiasts to offer a full service package to visiting/transiting General Aviation pilots and their aircraft when coming to Egypt. We have an unqualified success already when we were given the job of being the support team for Norman Surplus's circumnavigation by gyrocopter when he passed through Egypt earlier this year. This also led to a number of appointments to help as much as we could with other flights and also we were able to offer services to visiting pilots who were just coming to Cairo for the sights.
We can supply most of the services offered by extornionate companies for a much reduced or free ammount. This includes fuel etc and flight planning services and permissions. We also offer were appropriate, free accomodation, meals etc and a full sight seeing package with transport...all for free.
We do this voluntarily as we are all devoted to bringing more general aviation to Egypt.
If you think we can be of help please contact me via my email in my profile or by PM.
Best wishes
Eddie for G.A.S.E.

[007helicopter]

Eddie, nice post.:ok: so what would the actual tangible costs be to arrive in Cairo for handling / landing / parking ?

What other GA viable airport's would you recommend?

Last year I flew over Egypt enroute to Jordan from the UK in a Cirrus and was thinking of a trip this year purely to do some sightseeing in Egypt and touring en route..

I have also voluntered to deliver the Maule above if required so would like to establish the local information.

My email is duncan at hydraquip.co.uk

[Arcturas]

Hi Duncan,

just seen your reply and will email as many details as I can. I will contact my partner in GASE who will be able to give some figures for your questions. But I must apologise for the fact that this won't be until tomorrow as it's near midnight hear in Cairo and we are about to hit the sack:zzz:
I will be able to send you a full hosting package document that would be ideal for your sight seeing visit and also be able to give an idea of costs that are out of our hands (landing fees etc). But we can cut costs in many other areas which hopefully help make Egypt a more accesible destination for you :-)
I will get the email to you asap.
Thank you for your swift reply
Eddie

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi Eddie,

Thanks for your post - very interesting! I also have a number of friends who (try to) fly GA in Egypt - a fairly frustrating (and expensive) experience.

I''ll send you an email - but remain available to anyone reading this thread to pass on any info received.

Best regards, Safe Flights, Sam.

[IO540]

One thing which strikes me about Egypt (having planned a trip to Luxor a while ago) is that one needs to be damn sure about avgas, because (within the range of even a very capable IFR tourer, like the TB20 with its 1300nm zero-fuel range) there are no practical alternates.

Last time I checked the only places which listed avgas was Luxor HELX, and one airport on the north coast (not Alexandria). It was possible to fly to Luxor from Crete (Sitia LGST (http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/sitia1.jpg)) or Rhodos. It's a long way, and your alternate would be the desert :)

Getting back, Sitia could be tricky because of its limited opening hours (more so on some days) so you may need to go to Rhodos or Iraklion.

OTOH, I know for a fact that people have managed to get avgas at "6th October" (a military place near Cairo) and also Aswan (which is clearly listed as not having any). I guess these arrangements were made on the spot - that's how Africa works. But you need time on your hands, in case it doesn't work...

Overflight / landing permits are easy in comparison. I found 3 or 4 agents who could do it for about £200 for 2 people.

[FERRYAIR]

Guys,

I would like to suggest you use G.A.S.E. for all your flight clearances whilst in Egypt, they are my preferred handlers and you get a 100% bespoke service for far less than the other handlers available to you on site.

I have read the thread and if anyone thinks they will get change out of £2000.00 for flying a Maule from the UK to Egypt they are in for a hell of a shock.

Done the trip in a 172 and had ran up bills of nearly £4000.00 by the time I was in Luxor ( pre G.A.S.E. days )

if anyone wants to contact G.A.S.E. they can drop me an email and I will forward it to G.A.S.E. on your behalf

[email protected] or contact Arcturas direct through this site.

[Arcturas]

I have read your observations on flying in Egypt with interest and although I do agree that Egypt can be a bit of a nightmare for the GA pilot it is not as bad as a picture as you have painted.
Because of the lack of empathy towards GA by the Egyptian powers that be we decided that we had to do something. That is why we collected a number of volunteers (aviation pro's and enthusiasts) together and created GASE. The whole idea being to enable GA pilots to by-pass the usual chaos that greets anyone landing in a small aircraft.
We are able to offer many services at a much reduced rate and many other services for free. In fact we near enough do a whole package for a visiting pilot including accomodation and sight seeing for free along with all transport and food thrown in gratis.
As for 6th October airport (HEOC) this is the nearest airfield to Cairo that openly welcomes small aircraft. It is not actually a military airfield but is run by the Egyptian Aviation Academy. It does have a small powerglider club there and a few light aircraft. This is the airfield we use to greet pilots who have used one of the two Alexandrian airports as entry airfields.
As for Avgas, it is available at most airfields and we can source it from outside as well.
We have experience with visiting aircraft and have been able to not only cut their costs considerably but to also make their visit to Egypt a memorable one.
I hope you plan another visit and this time we would be more than happy to offer our services to you :-)
Eddie for GASE

[Pace]

I have never flown piston into Egypt only private jet on ferry work. My only caution in any Arabic country or in Pakistan / India is that things dont work like they do here.

People will try and rip you off right left and centre so take a good wad of preferably $ s and pay the right people.

Barriers which once existed will vanish doors will open. Its the way of life and will speed things up no end.

Just as a taster arriving in india to pick up a jet for ferry I was informed that the customs for exporting the aircraft had not been dealt with and would take four days.

"What can i do?" "employ us as the handling agents and we will pay the customs people"! Money changed hands customs sorted in three hours!
That is the policy all the way through to the EC in that kneck of the woods and beyond.

Pace

[IO540]

Eddie - I have sent you an email. This sounds very interesting :ok:

HEOC is very reachable from Greece; in fact on a flight last June to Crete I loaded HECA as the destination into the GPS (for fun) and would have landed with 9 USG, and that was starting at Losinj LDLO in Croatia :)

[007helicopter]

Eddie - Thanks and looking forward to your mail

[Arcturas]

Hi Duncan,

Have sent a run down of costs and GASE's services to the email you suggested. Could you let us know if it arrives as the email was a different one to the one noted on the website.
Cheers
Eddie

[IO540]

Have you considered organising Customs at HEOC?

It may be hard, or it may be easy. On the wonderful Croatian islands, they do it with just 1 policeman, which frankly is all it takes.

I don't know how much a stop at Cairo or Alex would cost but it is likely to be significantly into 3 digits, plus the possibility of a load of hassle / unpredictable delays.

For most pilots doing this kind of flying, a Customs charge of say $100 would be easily worth paying, to avoid the extra stop.

[Arcturas]

In theory that is a great idea...but if you knew what bureacracy was like in Egypt you would soon understand that this is almost impossible. The bureaucratic mind set is..."why have a form that needs one person to stamp it when you can have eleven clerks sharing the workload. And then why not put each clerk in a different office half a mile away from the previous one. And we will need a special officer to fetch the stamp and inkpad. And of course, each form will have to be photocopied and then the photocopied will also need eleven stamps."
and so on, lol. I talk from experience. We are of course hoping that with increased traffic, HEOC may eventually get gateway status, but don't hold your breath:D

[debiassi]

Hi Sam, send me a PM if I can help. I actually delivered a 182 recently from Colorado to HKNW Wilson Nairobi and routed via Jersey, Greece, Egypt, Djibouti etc. The fuel stop options are very limited and there are a couple of pit falls that certainly need to be avoided along with a couple of money saving tips also. I have done a few trips through Egypt but also Mike at White Rose who you know of course is very familliar with that part of the world.

[IO540]

if you knew what bureacracy was like in Egypt you would soon understand that this is almost impossible

I've been to Egypt (Luxor and Cairo) by airline only, but yes it's evident they do like their job creation... like Greece and many other places.

However, it may be possible to "lubricate" enough people with $100 (One Hundred United States dollars :) ) to make it work. If it doesn't work, try 100 Euros :)

It's a useful long term objective.

You might then get significant ferry stop business too, because Luxor is a long way down... Mainland Greece to Luxor is a long way, and in Crete the only places with avgas are Hania (20 day PPR for both arrival and departure, a right hassle, been there and never again) and Sitia (lovely but limited opening hours). However, Corfu to October is a lot better.

[Arcturas]

I am not one to put a damper on any suggestions but I can talk from experience. We have had pilots come through Egypt, dependant on information recieved from 'agents' back in the UK, and then finding that the people who have given them their expertise were actually lacking in local knowledge.
We had a circumnavigator arrive at HEOC on a Tuesday and was due to fly out Wednesday to Assiut. All planned by a UK agent. He was quite livid that the agent didn't know that HEOC closed on a Wednesday or that Assiut didn't have any services that he needed. This agency didn't even know (or decided not to pass the information on) that he would have to fly at a minimum altitude of 8,500ft when crossing Egyptian airspace on his proposed route.
This agency then caused, because of wrong information, many more problems on his journey in other parts of the world.
I won't name names but just because someone says they know everything about a place doesn't mean they do. I would always suggest finding the relevent infromation and help from people on the ground who will know the area personally and be up to date with local changes.

[IO540]

I have certainly heard widely varying reports of the service level provided by overflight agents. Never used one myself, yet. I was once quoted £70 per person for overflight, visas and landing at Luxor, but have no idea how much other fees would have come to on the ground.

Having said that, every time I have spoken to somebody flying down through Africa, it always turned out that they used an overflight agent heavily. The only other option is to contact the aviation ministry in each country; I tried this for Egypt and after a few months of a total run-around just gave up on it. It's basically infeasible.

It is possible that if one sticks to major airports and uses handling agents, the agent can arrange these permissions too, and AIUI this is how business jets operate. But this is the expensive way of doing things - well into 3 digits per landing even in Europe.

[magvelda]

Hi Arcturas

It certainly was not me.:ok:

I always tell my clients MIN 8500FT and give correct opening times for HEOC.

Best Wishes from The White Rose Of Yorkshire.

P.S. I am the guy doing Normans permits....

[Arcturas]

Hi Magvelda,

it was an inexcusable mistake that my post made it sound that my comments may have been about White Rose Aviation. My apolgies for the wording and may I say, being Norman's ground support at HEOC, he had nothing but good reports about te service received from you. My comments in reply to the previous message was about other experiences quoted to me by some pilots who had used various agencies and had bad experiences. I am sure this isn't uncommon when flying far from home. My overiding point was that it is always a good idea to have 'local' knowledge as a back up and that when it comes to Egypt we are there to assist if neccessary.
I am sure in future we can work together on making sure visiting/transiting pilots get the best out of their flights and hopefully save them money and relieve the stress of landing in this part of the world.
All the best to you and all at WR :)

Eddie for G.A.S.E.

[magvelda]

Hello Eddie

Thanks for your reply - much appreciated.

I spoke to Norman after seeing your post and he has told me that he has been in contact with you.

I have been obtaining overflight & landing permits for clients worldwide since 1986. My first business was Overflight 1986-2004 and laterly White Rose Aviation 2005 to date. I have had no connection with the first mentioned business since 2004.

In fact my very first paying job was obtaining a tech landing permit at HELX for a client way back in 1986 - This client still uses me....

I wish I had a pound for every Egyptian overflight & landing permit I have obtained for clients over the years!!! I could dine out for a very long time.:D

I have only today applied for 7 Egyptian overflight permits on behalf of various clients. Next week I have 2 tech landings and last month I had
5 tech landings.

I am fully aware of the 8500FT rule and HEOC opening hours.

I certainly did not cause Norman any problems with his onward flight through the Middle East to The Philippines. I believe he has mentioned this to you also. In fact all permits were obtained without any problems whatsoever.

I fully agree with your comments re lack of local knowledge but I can assure you that White Rose is fully conversant.

Thank you for posting a correction - White Rose look after their clients and will continue to do so.

Very Best Wishes

Mike

[Arcturas]

Thank you Mike for your understanding. I did reply here before talking to Norman and I must reiterate that the reports from certain visiting pilots about bad 'info' concerning HEOC had nothing to do with Norman or your company.
Your resume is impressive and I am sure pilots, including Norman, have nothing but praise for your services.
All I can say is that for every A-1 company, like yours, there are probably a number of less diligent agents out there.
We would never dream of trying to organise a flight for someone, say in India or Russia, we don't have that kind of expertise, but we do know Egypt and that is what we do best.
Our main aim is to foster more GA in Egpt by making it a more attractive destination (through cost saving and bureaucracy busting) for pilots. Our info about other agents has arrived from contacts with other pilots who have mentioned being given wrong or out of date information when using them. Obviously heresay, but it did give us the nuance to set up GASE, to help aviators as much as we can.
Best wishes for your future successes, especially with Norman who we follow avidly.
Eddie

[Katamarino]

The aircraft now needs to be brought back again, in the week of the 14th - 20th Feb. Is anyone interested in doing this?

It has see-through doors, a GNS430, and 9-10 hours endurance!

Please post here or let me know, I am now coordinating.