Air India Fraudulently TriesTo Waive of FDTL Rules

[jetsreams]

As though all the recent negative publicity has not been enough for Air India !

This just got exposed by the Indian media and is a real shocker - an attempt to waive of all FDTL limits for pilots of diverted aircraft by issuing a company order made by fraud and misrepresentation !!

Air India's dangerous order to flight crew withdrawn (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/air-india-s-dangerous-order-to-flight-crew-withdrawn-73438)

Whatever will they think of next ????

[PT6A]

Why oh why are they not banned from the EU and the Indian DGCA downgraded! It is a disgrace.

PT6A

[mangi lo ples]

What would be a F100 Fleet captain be on now a days say in PNG?

[boredcounter]

For example, a flight from Delhi to London is diverted to Mumbai due to fog

Any one see something wrong here?

[PT6A]

Good spot counter! must be carrying a lot of fuel at AI these days!

[Piltdown Man]

If nothing else it shows that the Indian media are getting a lot more savvy and someone is very kindly providing them with some inside information. Long may it continue.

PM

[boredcounter]

If nothing else it shows that the Indian media are getting a lot more savvy and someone is very kindly providing them with some inside information. Long may it continue.

See my above post and confirm your post! Do these idiots proof read?

[Nero1352]

Make the sector LHR DEL iso DEL LHR and it makes sense.

[stuckgear]

Why oh why are they not banned from the EU and the Indian DGCA downgraded! It is a disgrace.



Quite agree, and with the subject matter raised here:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/434050-sleepy-pilot-caused-indian-passenger-plane-crash.html

and here:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/434529-fake-pilots-helps-explain-lot-things.html

perhaps the suspension of operations into ICAO contracting states would seem the only manner to motivate the DGAC to get itself in order..

or perhaps the international politics scene is playing a role in the lack of international motivation?

[Lonewolf_50]

perhaps the suspension of operations into ICAO contracting states would seem the only to motivate the DGAC to get itself in order.
That would seem a proper Course of Action among ICAO contracting states. or perhaps the international politics scene is playing a role in the lack of international motivation?
Most likely true, which reality seems to render ICAO (agreements across a spectrum of responsible flight operations) in some cases yet another "scrap of paper" to be used for ... /rant off.

[stuckgear]

^^ which kind of makes a mockery of the whole system and the progression towards a culture of safety [sic].

[Escape Path]

But perhaps it's better that passengers are slightly inconvenienced than a little unsafe.

Dear oh dear...how come they make it look like it's not that big of a deal? It is just a little unsafe to fly on an airplane that is being flown by two tired pilots for 18 (or more) hours straight. Yup...just a little :ugh:

I'd rather be "inconvenienced" than dead if you ask me.

Why oh why are they not banned from the EU and the Indian DGCA downgraded! It is a disgrace.

Ditto

[India Four Two]

a flight from Delhi to London

It's a typo. The reporter in the video clearly says London to Delhi.

[FCS Explorer]

from the link:

Their bodies cannot maintain that level of alertness indefinitely and that's why 2 pilots after 9 hours of flying, and three hours of other duty, need rest.

:D

can somebody confirm that pilots in India have more stringent/reasonable duty time limitations than we Europeans have? i wouldn't be surprised.:(

[PT6A]

For a time.. Maybe to this day India has NO FDTL as the DGCA canceled that section of the CAR.

PT6A

[Coireall]

The current Indian DGCA FDTL scheme is old and unsophisticated. The 1992 scheme document is here: http://dgca.nic.in/aic/aic28_92.pdf
For example, there is no allowance made for start time so the same limit applies for duty starting at 2300 as for a duty starting at 0900. In addition, the airlines have managed to get a waiver of the international flight time limits for a 2 pilot crew from 9hours flight time and 12 hours duty time to 10hours flight time and 14 hours duty time.
On 27th July 2007, a revised scheme was introduced which stayed in operation for less than one year. It gave considerabley more time off between flights, but did not do anyting to reduce the length of the duty and flight times permitted for 2 pilots operation. That scheme is still suspended.
There seems to be an intention to adopt the latest EASA scheme when that becomes operational in Europe.
Finally, the concept of "captain's discretion" is completely different to the EASA scheme and barely is worthy of the same title!

[zondaracer]

Why oh why are they not banned from the EU and the Indian DGCA downgraded! It is a disgrace.

Quite agree, and with the subject matter raised here:

Sleepy pilot caused Indian passenger plane crash (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/434050-sleepy-pilot-caused-indian-passenger-plane-crash.html)

and here:

Fake pilots. This Helps To Explain A Lot Of Things... (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/434529-fake-pilots-helps-explain-lot-things.html)

perhaps the suspension of operations into ICAO contracting states would seem the only manner to motivate the DGAC to get itself in order..

or perhaps the international politics scene is playing a role in the lack of international motivation?


Don´t forget about the Air India Express co-pilot who didn´t figure out that pulling back makes the houses get smaller and pushing forward makes the houses get bigger.

Report Cites 'Panicked' Co-Pilot in Air India Jetliner Dive - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704700204575643401782593096.html)

[fft100]

Air India is due to join Star Alliance in summer 2011, having been delayed, i believe, by IT issues from joining in 2010.

Does star alliance have any written standards regarding members and the methods/approach they employ ? Or is it purely a financial alliance.

I do wonder about some of the members. As SLF, an unwitting code share with someone like air india wouldnt make me overly happy.

[Rush2112]

As a frequent SQ passenger, I sometimes end up on a code share with AI. If I ever got to the gate and saw one of their planes sat there, I would turn around and offload myself. "A little unsafe"?? Is their spokesperson serious??

[stealthpilot]

stuckgear, PT6A,
Although people will find it hard to disagree with you about most things related to Air India/DGCA, your examples are rather blind and short sighted.

1) Sleepy pilot caused Indian passenger plane crash (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/434050-sleepy-pilot-caused-indian-passenger-plane-crash.html)
Now what on earth does this have to do with anything? Most crashes will have a human element to it. You can bet your house the JAA/FAA and their pilots (so to speak) have played a role in multiple crashes and deaths. Why is this singled out as a bad regulator issue?

2) Fake pilots. This Helps To Explain A Lot Of Things... (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/434529-fake-pilots-helps-explain-lot-things.html)
True, this is a massive headache, one the DGCA needs to crack down on. How they will do it and whether it will work is anyone's guess.
But keep in mind EVERY regulatory agency has its battles. Heck there was a German pilot who almost (or did?) get arrested for forging his licence and flying on line operations carrying passengers as an Examiner when he was a co-pilot. So what now, throw the German agency into the list of 'blacklisted' whatever?

I would agree if you stated that pressure is probably needed from ICAO for the DGCA to get its house in order; but to base your claim on the fact that there was a crash in India + a few pilots are dishonest well heck!!! If you truly think that's an Indian problem and doesn't happen in western countries wake up get your head out of the mud and smell the fresh air.

Again, I reiterate the ICAO and other agencies NEED to put massive pressure on the DGCA to reform. There is a heck of a lot of corruption in the system. However that's different from saying because AI came up with its own FDTL rule the DGCA needs to be banned?

[HAWK21M]

Don't believe Everything the media dramatically prints....

Believe the Folks that know the facts..........

You will know then over time spent at Aviation forums :)

[AvMed.IN]

Though Air India hastily chose to withdraw the contentious diktat on extension of the prevailing FDTL, due to media pressure. DGCA on its part should have considered the ramifications of their orders on human physiology and performance (Unsafe Deceit – Air India extends Pilots’ duty hours | Aviation Medicine :: Aerospace Medicine (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/unsafe-deceit-air-india-extends-pilots-duty-hours/)).

[Tommy Tilt]

The Indian DGCA have little interest in safety. If they did, they would not have approved the appointment of Mr. Hamid Ali, to the Post Holder position of Chief Operating Officer of Jet Airways.

Mr. Hamid Ali was the A320 Chief Pilot at Gulf Air when a perfectly serviceable A320 was flown into the Persian Gulf killing all on board.

The ICAO report found:
"A lack of a crew resources management (CRM) training programme; inadequacy in some of the airline’s A320 flight crew training programmes; problems in the airline’s flight data analysis system and flight safety department which were not functioning satisfactorily; organisational and management issues within the airline"


The ICAO report avaialble to the PUBLIC can be found at the following link:

GF072 Final Report (http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2000/a40-ek000823a/htm/a40-ek000823a.html) (at the page, click on blue sub-sections to view)

Additonally, the BBC reported:
"The chief pilot of Gulf Air's Airbus A320 fleet, Captain Hamid Ali, has previously rejected reports that pilot error was behind the crash"

The link to the BBC report avaialble to the PUBLIC is:

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Gulf Air improves offer (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/910743.stm)

When Jet Airways first began operating the B777, expat pilots were flying trips as PIC without ever having passed a company simulator check and/or line check.

[fullforward]

Interestingly, tomy, your concerns about safety in Indian civil aviation rely on:
- who's nominated as VP of Flt Ops at Jet Airways is supposedly incompetent because there was an accident on his tenure on another airline he worked for;
- a B777 Jet Airways flight that were supposedly commanded by a very experienced and current captain which was not carrying a stamped piece of paper by a 'competent' authority;

but I don't see a word about:

- the endemically corrupt system inside DGCA, Air India;
- the number of fake pilots currently employed with Indian carriers;
- the "senior" AI capt which stalled a fully loaded B777 after a heavy take off for pure incompetence;
- the list goes on

I see an agenda here...:rolleyes:

[OzAviator]

So why doesn't anyone take an action against these guys puttin pilots thru all kindsa BS in Air India?
It is apparent that the people in AI are pretty well connected and protected as far as any regulatory actions go and as far as the DGCA is concerned, their level of leaguing has already been disclosed I guess a zil times by now. Let's see if they can put up a crack team to sort this case out as well.

[A2QFI]

It is stated that the authorities are investigating the licences of all 4,084 of India's commercial pilots. Surely a country the size of India must have more licenced pilots that that?

[AnthonyGA]

It is stated that the authorities are investigating the licences of all 4,084 of India's commercial pilots. Surely a country the size of India must have more licenced pilots that that?

The number of pilots in a country is a direct function of the number of aircraft to be flown in that country, rather than population or land area.