Could I Land An Airliner?

[28thJuly2001]

I am a brand spanking new PPL and trying to impress the wife. I told her that if the pilots of our next holiday flight were to croak it at the controls in the manner of "Airplane" and all those other disaster movies, then she has no need to worry as I could land the plane without breaking sweat :D ... So what are the chances of a PPL taking control of a 737 and making a successful landing? Is there any instances of a passenger landing a airliner? Or am I talking through my hat..Walt.

[Sugar_Junkie]

Good question!! I don't know the answer, but you could find out by going on a simulator (www.yorkshireflightcentre.co.uk) has one.......

[Pilot Pete]

28July

Highly unlikely as I am sure you are aware, a good landing comes from a good approach. Getting an 'airliner' down from 30+000ft with just a PPL and with no prior thought, to make a stabilised approach to a runway would be extremely difficult. If you got it anywhere near a suitable airfield first time out with no input from anyone else I think you would have done incredibly well.

The problems are many, including what speeds/ configurations to fly (which vary with weight), the speed at which you are 'eating up' the ground (meaning you have to think well ahead of the aircraft and not just react to what it has done), situational awareness if the aircraft has EFIS, the possibilty/ probability of having to fly through cloud at some point (do you have any instrument experience?) and the fact that the modern airliner is very automated (assuming the automatics are in when you take control, would you have any idea how to take them out or put inputs into the autopilot?)

Sure, like in the movies they could get the Chief Pilot of said airline to talk you through it on the radio, but it'd be pretty damn tough! Mind you, if you succeeded I'm sure the airline would sponsor you should you want to go commercial! Hope this gives you some idea of what you might face (well, hopefully not actually!)

I still have trouble and I've just finished line training!

Be safe

PP

[mutt]

IMHO an average PPL will need a lot of luck to land an airliner, as for a non-flyer, well they better be religious.

I have brought numerous friends in to fly our sims, the majority of them crash and burn!

Mutt :)

[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: mutt ]

[DJXL]

Well, can a PPL fly a sim?

I flew a 747 classic sim into Kai Tak in a mile vis 3 days after my first solo. However, a bit of practice on Microsoft Flight Simulator taught me to think ahead of the aircraft. If you didn't know what to expect or were not too familiar with what is presented in front of you when you get in the sim then that might be a problem.

What I know for certain though is that it's blinding fun, give a sim a go!

[Wile E. Coyote]

If you wanna find out if you can land an airliner then keep a look out in Wannabes for Raw Data's simdays.

Wile E. Coyote, Genius!

[Open Climb]

DJXL,

Don't mean to rain on your parade here but....
Playing around in the sim is good fun, especially at Kai Tak, the best part is that you can freeze the sim or start again if you crash.

In real life, however, I'd be crapping my pants trying to pull it off alone in a 747 with low vis. adding to the fun. I've flown into Kai Tak, and I wouldn't exactly call it pleasant....

As for a PPL landing a jetliner, I guess it's possible, but it sure as hell wouldn't be pretty. I'd say a 1% survival rate... :D :D

[M.Mouse]

Speaking from my experience of running commercial simulator visits for several years you pose an interesting question.

Most visits I ran were in the 747-400 simulator with the occasional 757 or 767.

After a thorough basic briefing followed by some general handling it was possible for most to pull off a landing ranging from good to survivable. However this was with me in the RHS handling the throttles, flaps and gear and making the Flight Director give the appropriate instructions and, usually, talking the visitor through the landing manoeuvre, at least for the first couple of landings.

Most found just handling the control column more than enough to cope with!

Interestingly females with no experience usually pulled off the best landings. My personal feelings are that this was because they listened to what they were told and did not let their ego get in the way! Experienced PPLs understood what was required more readily but a majority did not fair much better than someone with no previous experience.

I believe that whatever the visitors background most had an enjoyable time but in answer to the question you pose I doubt that it is possible, anymore than I could land the Space Shuttle despite having 20 years experience on aircraft up to 400 tonnes MTOW.

As an aside Kai Tak on a nice day was very enjoyable to fly into but in poor weather could be very different!

[Julian]

You should know from films that in order to land a plane when the crew croak it you must possess the following attributes.

i) Ponytail
ii) Sunglasses
iii) gruff New York accent even if you are from Merseyside..

:) :) :) :) :)

Julian

[ft]

I had a go at it in a 737-700 simulator with my only previous flight experience being 20 minutes in a glider and PC flight sims (well, and most of an AE education :)). Not exactly CAVOK but high cloudbase, I did not see the RWY at first when established on the ILS. I'm fairly sure there was a sidewind component as well.

I had the controls thrown at me from the right seat while expecting to be a passenger about when we retracted gear on the take-off. The help I had was a route to the RWY on the ND that I did not follow but which helped me get on the ILS, help with advice on what a good approx speed to aim for would be on the approach, flap setting and gear lowered when I asked for it. I wasn't familiar with EFIS systems then and hadn't managed to get it into the right mode so I flew it on compass, loc and GS indication once I realized that I had no hope at all getting the CAT III HUD to make sense in time.

I manhandled the jet around a pattern of sorts, getting the feel of the controls after overcorrecting wildly at first creating massive PIOs. My altitude control wouldn't have gotten me by even the most tolerant checkride in the world even after that but I remained airborne and got the plane to where I wanted it.

The outcome? I came in hot & high but had plenty of runway in excess of what I needed so I could probably have made it down. However, the fella in the RH seat (who was a trained pilot although not on 737) decided to go for an uncommanded missed approach and slammed the throttles forward and retracted the gear, much to my surprise. :rolleyes: At the same time, the "friendly" instructor thought an irrecoverable flameout on #1 would make it more interesting. As I'd taken my feet off the pedals since I did more harm than good trying to use them this caught me somewhat off guard. By the time I realized what was happening and had my feet back where they should be we were at 200', gear up off to the left of the RWY in a 90 degree bank getting steeper and with the nose low. You do forget that it is a simulator and it was very uncomfortable indeed to see the world go black.

My conclusion? Yes, a PPL COULD land an airliner. With a bit of luck. And you better hope that nothing else goes wrong. I just hope that I'm not on the airliner when it is tested as I think the odds are kinda bad.

Cheers,
/ft

[28thJuly2001]

I get the feeling that all you "proper" pilots are just pretending it is difficult to fly an airliner to justify your HUGE salaries, wobbly hats and pouting flight attendants.
Just Kidding,
Think I will have a go on a simulator just to see how difficult it really is and then I will take my hat off to all you pilots out there. (If I wore a hat)
Walt,,

[28thJuly2001]

I have just realised that I used the word "hat" 4 times in my posts, think I need to extend my vocabulary and get away from my hat fixation.
Walt,,

[rover2701]

Just like to put my two pennorth in. I have PPL, With a few hours on it. During a demonstration tour with a BAeRJ. I took of and landed the A/C without much of a problem. I had a company test pilot in the left seat and a training captain in the jump seat, but other than carrying out the normal pilot not handling procedures I carried it out fairly succesfully. Took loads of concentration, but with the assistance of someone to call out the ck. list managed it ok. Only problem was I braked to hard. But that is feel anyway.

Just like to add. I have been a Licenced engineer for over 30 years. Am fully conversant with all the A/C systems, and know which is the appropiate buttons to press. In addition spent more hours flying on the Flight deck than some of our customer airlines crews. So I suppose I have more familiarity with this particular type than the average PPL. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: rover2701 ]

[Mindthegap]

actually smaller than B73 is propably easy. But when inside a B737 and larger it isn´t so easy. Somebody ( hat something) said no problem. Well my first sim training in a B732 was a hell of alot more difficult than I thought. I had 900 hrs of handflying a 19 seat commuter and thought it would be no prob. If you are 1 deg above or below what is needed for level flight you have + or -1500 fpm. It takes a few hundred hours to be comfortable and few hundred more to be proficient. I don´t believe that a ppl will land an airliner safely.. or at all.

[Dave Incognito]

I've had this argument many times at uni.

If the PPL had instruction from somewhere (lets say the flight crew were paralysed from the neck down), wouldn't it be possible for them to drive the autopilot and carry out an auto land (provided it is fitted of course)?

Having never flown anything bigger than bug smashers, I admittedly have no idea of what is involved with entering data into the autopilot of something big. I understand programming the FMS can be tricky and /or time consuming, but how difficult is it to enter HDG/NAV/ALT/APP hold data into the autopilot?

[twistedenginestarter]

I have a feeling KLM investigated this and found most ordinary people could land an airliner. I don't know the details but I assume that meant they could take instructions from the ground to configure the computers to do the approach and landing. As long as someone knows how to press the transmit button, you're safe.

I wouldn't worry anyway as I cannot recall a double pilot failure, and many flights have more pilots on them than you can shake a joystick at. The chances of you making it into the driving seat is zilch. :p

[northern boy]

I sat in a restaurant the other day and had to listen to the tw*t on the table behind me telling all and sundry in a loud voice that he could do an airline pilots job with no training because he was 1: a teacher and 2: could fly MS2000.He further added that no mere pilot could teach a class full of 16 yr olds.

After half an hour of this plus further misinformed comments "A non precision ILS" and "all 4 engines on the 777" I turned round and quietly informed him that he was talking complete bollo**s and was making a fool of himself. Hearty bellowing laughter and what did I know was I a pilot or something?.Yes said I. Silence. Filthy look from teachers Guardian reading wife.Much tittering from other tables.

Everyone thinks they can do it until they actually have to do it at night into JFK or HKG or Corfu. MS2000 not withstanding.Its not the same. An A320 is not a C152, and the ability to land a simulator with an experienced TRI sitting next to you does not an instant airline captain make , in my opinion of course, and hey what do I know? am I a pilot or something? ;)

[M.Mouse]

Dave Incognito

Yes the scenario you construct would be possible, relatively easy in fact. The proviso being that the ILS ground station is of the required standard for an autoland (many are not) and the weather is within autoland limits (ie relatively light winds). however if the person giving the instructions was talking to the hapless soul via the radio that is a different ball game!
Have you ever played that game where you have a simple object drawn on paper in front of you and you have to instruct somebody to draw it without seeing it?

Anybody tried sorting a friends computer problem over the telephone?

It would be interesting to try instructing somebody in a simulator over the radio from outside the simulator.

twistedenginestarter

I am afraid I disagree with your analysis, see last paragraph above.

I don't think anybody is claiming that pilots are above mere mortals but what I generally explain to people is the volume of knowledge and ability takes many years of training, practice and experience. No one area in isolation is particularly difficult in benign weather with a fully serviceable aeroplane. Throw in weather or mechanical problems and it is a different ball game.

This is one of those highly entertaining but actually quite pointless threads!

And the next contributor please...

[Tiger_ Moth]

Hmmmmm..........Obviously weather and if its night would severely lessen chances.
Given reasonable day weather a ppl without radio assitance, I guestimate, would have a very slim chance.
Same conditions, with radio guidance would have low but not too bad chances of not dying but would probably damage the plane or something else or both if they did pull off a landing.

What do you think about someone on a trial lesson having their instructor die on them?
I think its unlikely theyd die, especially with radio assistance.

[28thJuly2001]

So can I land an airliner or what???? After all I can make a reasonable approach and landing in my Tomahawk so a 747 shouldn't be too difficult, they may have a few more switches but I heared that most of them are fake to impress the visitors.
Walt,,
P.S. Sorry to impose myself with this "pointless thread" when I could have asked if I was too old at 32 for a job with Easyjet.

[Open Climb]

Ok....
In any jet airliner things happen real fast if you're not ahead of the airplane at all times. The actual airplane is very different from simulators and PC games. No second chances here guys.

Back in the good ol' flight engineer airplanes we sometimes swapped seats (the F/E flew from the RH seat and I took the panel) on some ferry or positioning flights. These guys had CPL's but were qualified as F/E's on that a/c, not as F/O's.
They got a real 'wake up and smell the coffee' experience out of it. The usual reaction was freezing.Stuff happens, fast.

I'm not saying they were bad pilots, they just didn't expect things to be thrown at them at that pace.The point is, if F/E's who sit in the cockpit day in day out and have CPL's can't do it, then how the hell is a PPL who's never even seen that particular cockpit going to??

I believe anybody can learn to fly a big jet with the required training, but being thrown right into it is too much for even the best aviator.

[Dave Incognito]

Thanks for the reply M.Mouse.

Have a good one, Dave.

[Steepclimb]

Northern Boy, great story, I wish I was there. He couldn't have imagined a real pilot would have been sitting next to him. What a wally.
I too have come across people who think because they fly MS2000 they can fly the real thing. It's amazing how many people who should know better think it's easy to fly an airliner with little or no training. Ignorance is bliss.

I think ultimately the answer to the original question is yes but a big BUT!. I for one wouldn't want to sitting in the back with a PPL at the controls. Come to think of it I wouldn't be sitting down the back. I'd be flying, well that's OK then.

One day it might just happen, as long as it's not our friend the MS2000 ace. Actually these days it's quite likely that several people on board would have 'flown' MS2000. Imagaine them fighting for the left seat. 'No I have a later version than you' 'No, I have the a more powerful processor than you'.
Now there's a nightmare scenario.

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]

[pulse1]

From my limited experience, flying even the best simulators for fun is a bit like walking a tightrope 6 inches off the ground. It's a lot different when your job or life depends on your performance.

I say this having successfully landed a 777 at Jersey after a 100' run in & break - even had runway to spare and used only auto throttle (sure I could not have done it without). I would put my chances of landing on a long runway for real as less than 10%, not odds I would want to take. Incidentally I was told that the 777 would have to be dismantled and brought home by sea as the runway is too short for take off. ;)

[twistedenginestarter]

Steepclimb

Equally I have come across people who think because they can fly a real plane, they can fly MS Flight Simulator. As I have said before a 737 handles like a ballerina. MS Flight simulator is like driving a 14000 tonne yoghurt.

[stagger]

The scenario that Steepclimb imagines is pretty terrifying.

But here’s an interesting little question – if you were strapped in down the back who would you rather have up front – a PPL holder (< 100 hours in a C152/PA28 or similar) or someone whose only hours were accumulated sitting in front of a PC flying imaginary jets? Actual hand flying experience vs vague familiarity with some of the knobs you’re likely to encounter in a modern jet? Both possibilities are frightening but which would be more likely to scare you into soiling the upholstery?

Landing success rates would likely be extremely low for both types but what do you think would be the most common mistakes each would make that would get them into trouble?

[Pandora]

To the person who asked 'it surely can't be too dificult once you have found the autopilot button';
No, it's not that tricky. First you would have to find the radio transmit button. So far, so good. You know that 121.5 is the D&D frequency, so talk to them, and they pass you on to the person who is going to 'talk you down', (cause every airport has a training captain on standby for such eventualities .) They give you a radar vector and ask you to descend to a lower level and slow to 220kts. Here comes your first big problem - how are you going to make the autopilot do this? So you ask your man on the ground, and he tells you the aeroplane will do it for you if you just dial 220kts in the speed window and your level in the alt window. Which windows? The ones on the MCP. You're looking around for these windows - where the hell are they? Your man tells you the MCP is in front of you, just below the window, but there are 4 windows, which one does which? Before you know it he is asking you to ensure both nav boxes are tuned to the ILS frequency and the inbound course is set - back to the MCP again. You are on an intercept heading now and you have to select flap and slow down. To your amazement the autopilot does not do any of this for you. But the flaps are obvious looking in the cockpit and you find them with no problem. You know where the speed control is now and you're getting more familiar with the MCP and then he askes you to hit the VOR/LOC button. The what? could he repeat that? But it is too late. You have flown through the localiser. The gives you a new vector and tells you you need to be at Vref +5 - don't worry, he worked that one out for you. Let's call it 145kts. So you're getting quite good with the old flaps and MCP now and you slow up some more, get you flaps to 30 and then drop the gear, as you are told. In the meantime you have hit the APP button, it's next to the VOR/LOC button. Stick in the second autopilot. You did ident those nav aids didn't you? Cause you know morse, of course. You've armed the speedbrake and all the time the cabin crew know whats going on. Wouldn't want to carry out your controlled crash with them standing up, now. Then your man in the tower tells you that on landing, even though it will be an autoland, the autopilot will not give the aircraft dirctional control on the ground. On landing you must apply reverse thrust, disarm the autopilot, use rudder pedals the as you get slower, the tiller, and bring the aircraft to a stop. All of this took minutes while you where barging round the sky at a phenomenal speed. If you manage all of this -CONGRATULATIONS - you have successfully carried out an autoland and never oce touched the control column. There are no short cuts. If you forget to put the gear down or tune the ILS, it is not going to work. If it all looks like it might be easier if you fly manually without the autopilot, remember you still have to do all of the above as well as fly an unfamiliar aircraft. If you are a PPL or MS2000 fan who still thinks they could do all of the above, you're made of a different stuff to most pilots who take on average a year to make it from PPL level to being able to competently land a jet airliner.

[28thJuly2001]

Piece of cake. Now which gate do I taxi to?

[reverserdeployed]

Interesting one this.

I'm a 30 hour PPL student, and a friend and I of similar ilk recently rented out the Trident sim at Biggin Hill for a couple of hours.

Armed with the checklist we managed to take off okay, and pull off a half-decent circuit.

In all we did around 15 landings between us and we both crashed four times. We crashed mostly during the flare - I'm told that we busted the gear so the sim crashes itself automatically. Technically the landings would have been reasonably survivable.

But once a gusty bit of wind (25kts) was dialled in the whole thing was way out of our league. We didn't stand a chance.

If the same thing happened in real life I'd like to think that I know my way enough around the f/d to be able to get the thing on the ground. Luck is the factor. Good weather, calm winds, a loooong runway and a damn good talker on the other end of the radio and I might be able to do it.

But I'd rather not try...

[GlueBall]

If you can figure how to work a VHF and establish two way radio contact, you could be talked down safely. In a machine with Autoland cabability, you could be coached on setting Autopilot, Autobrakes and Autothrottles and flaps. And if the runway's long you wouldn't have to bother with reverse thrust. Push the brake pedals when you're down to taxi speed.

Without help you'd be in danger.

[Speedbird252]

Bloody hell, how to complicate an answer or what. The bottom line is, should it happen...you will get talked down, even a PPL will have a reasonable understanding of flaps v airspeed etc etc etc. IFR or VFR, if you took the headings you were told, reduced the airspeed when you were told, lowered flaps and then gear when you were told, youd be well on your way. You wouldnt need to worry about having an IR as centre/tower whatever would tell you how things should look. Sure, getting on and tracking the glideslope will be critical, but it isnt impossible. Once your on that, do what you think you need to.

Lets face it, your the best chance they have got. You might dent it, but you might just get it down in one piece.

You might not..............? :eek:

[Rollingthunder]

"Runway 08" by Arthur Hailey. and the best of luck/

[JT8]

Hi,

I was lucky enough to complete about 30hrs on a fixed based B737-400 sim before starting my PPL (used to work for BA Engineering). My first PPL lesson went exremely well and my instructor would simply not beleive I hadnt flown a real aircraft before! So, working in reverse helped!

After my PPL I managed to get some time on a 744 and 777 full flight sim. At the this point I was used to the basic systems and the flight deck - EFIS etc. The results?:

On the 744: First landing forgot the flight decks actually quite high(!) and left the flare too late - would have crippled the gear. After which 3 perfectly survivable (although not comfortable) landings. All approaches were completely visually as the FMC nav tuning was playing up.

B777: this aircraft is AMAZING. Its hard to believe that you're flying such a large aircraft because the flight control response is so quick and accurate. 4/4 survivable landings, 3/4 were actually very good. :rolleyes:

My point is that a knowledge of the systems & flight deck instruments, and an appreciation for the handling characteristics of a large aircraft could just enable a PPL to do it :eek: (but not first time, so in the pilots collapsing scenario things probably wont work out!)

BTW,Aerowinx Precision Flight Sim is a 744 PC sim which will teach you a LOT about operating a large aircraft. Its extremely accurate, and I say that with confidence, as my final year project at university was done testing it.

Oh well...back to MSFS2000 :( must stop waffle.

JT8 :)

[28thJuly2001]

I seem to remember watching an episode of "999" where a guy was on a trial lesson and his instructor had a heart attack, he was talked down and made a successful landing. I think it was Cardiff Airport, can anyone remember watching this or did I dream it? I know it is nothing like an airliner but I would bet a pound that it could be pulled off with a smidge of luck and a 5 mile runway. I mean, if that girl can do it in that brilliant film "Airspeed" then a PPL would have no trouble.
Walt,,

[Do28]

One thing that no one has mentioned, but I would be curious to see (in a sim only, of course), is a PPL's performance in some of the older and less automated aircraft, such as some of the old 727's, DC9-10, or some of the less automated turboprops (ex Jetstream 31/2, DHC-7/8) I think there would be just enough familiar items to make it really dangerous.

[FNG]

You can do it if, but only if, the following criteria are met:-

(1) you are or at some time have been Doug McClure

(2) the guy yelling at you from the Tower is George Kennedy "comeon babeee laaaaand that muthaf***er"

(3) you are able to cope with your recurrent 'Nam flashbacks

(4) you had the chicken and not the fish.

The real problem is that the hapless PPL sitting in row 21 with his licence tucked into his carry-on ready to be flourished in just such an eventuality will never make it to the flight deck as he will be killed by the stampede of teenagers, teachers and your mum, each with a zillion hours of FS2000 and all rushing forward shouting "lemmeflyit".

[captainowie]

Was waiting for a reference to "Flying High". Well done FNG... :D :D

edited for the smilie thingies..

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Captainowie ]

[twistedenginestarter]

Let's be totally honest. Anyone of us sitting as a passenger on another airline will at some point think what happens if...

You've got to make some assumptions here. Most likely you will have good daylight weather at your destination. You assume control with the autopilot engaged - otherwise you wouldn't make it to the front.
Call for some help. You are bound to find another PPL or MSFS person. Together you review the documentation on the flightdeck - approach speeds for example.

You may not want to use the FMS or autothrottles to do the landing. I don't think you need to. If you are visual, you've together looked at a chart of the airfield, you'll get vectored onto the approach. Stick on the flaps and gear at 4000 feet so you've plenty of time to trim and hit the right power setting. Get your colleague to call out radio altimeter heights. After that it's easier than a 150. OK you may go off the end of the runway, but no casualties.

If you've crashed a simulator you must have been trying to do too much yourself or trying something difficult like a 50 foot cloud base etc. ;)

[SuperNige]

I'm sure I could do it!!

First I would set Realism to easy.

I would ensure that I had checked the box that says 'Cannot colide with dynamic scenery'

I would check the box that says 'ignore crash and reset situation'

I would check Unlimited Fuel.

Piece of cake!!!

[Jack Noullet]

If.....big IF.......you had several hundred hours in a CRT simulator such as PS1.3 by Hardy Heinlin you could possibly land an already configured 747-400 at cruise altitude and everything pre-programmed into the FMS and execute a 'Autoland' 3 with some degree of confidence. This requires extensive reading of the all the systems associated with the 747-400 Glass cockpit.

Regards,

[tom775257]

...and even if you do manage to land the aircraft, get ready to be sued by any americans on the flight for post traumatic stress or something! ...Try to save someone's life....get sued. :(

[Open Climb]

twistedenginestarter,

sure hope you're joking.if not, it's time to turn off the MSFS and get a reality check.

[twistedenginestarter]

Open Climb

Not sure if you are a pilot but if you are you will appreciate that all simulators are poor at reproducing the landing phase because they lack the richness of visual cues.

I have used MSFS in the past to practise map reading (how good are you, nowadays?) and on occasions to take-off my 747 from local grass fields.

If you say "I hope you are joking..." it doesn't really add much to the discussion because you don't reveal what your point is. I have met a few people who have landed full-motion simulators even though they are not pilots. By contrast I've see several people with no hope. So I think the person who started this thread is probably correct. An ordinary person has a very low probability of saving a plane whereas a PPL has a high probabilty providing the meteorological conditions etc are not too bad.

By the way it's nothing to do with FMSs. ATC will do all the navigation for you. It is can you land a big jet?

[Lurk R]

I've spent many hours on FS2000 but only a few hours in a real bugsmasher with friends. All I can say is that I feel the FS experience puts me in a position of knowing what should be done - actually executing it properly would most likely be a different matter. Mind you, a few months ago I managed to land a quadrapuff motion sim reasonably satisfactorily even though it was a very long landing.

As an aside, a friend is a lightie instructor and has just passed his IR. He is doing his ATPL's and has actually been asking me to ask him questions about aircraft systems. Some of the recent FS2000 models (767 in particular) are extremely good replicas of the real thing (until it comes to handling)!

[Open Climb]

twistedenginestarter,

I find it impressive if a non-flyer or a PPL manages to land an airliner in the sim without outside help. It's no easy task for someone who's not familiar with the aircraft.

This, however, is my point: If one of these guys was to face the unlikely situation of having to land the actual thing with some 300+ pax onboard it would be a completely different ballgame. In the box it's all fun and games, in the actual situation it's life or death. The pressure on the poor fella would be to say the least extreme. I find it hard to believe he/she could do as nice a job as in the sim with all these lives depending on it.

I apologize if my previous post was offensive, it was not my intention. Everybody has a right to their opinion, and here was mine. I'm sure you find I have a valid point.

Cheers :) :)

P.S. Yes I am a pilot, or at least I used to be before I started 'flying' the A330. :D :D (nice airplane tough!)

[twistedenginestarter]

Open Climb
I'm sure you find I have a valid point.

Not doubting that for a minute. However 28July is trying to impress his wife so let's boost his ego a tad. Mind you she may be more interested in other aspects of their relationship as he desctribes himself as a spanking PPL.

We need a new forum....

[RVR800]

The problem is the approach - as PP said
Speed control, managing the descent etc
What to do and when.

If you were all set up on finals the problem
is not so bad

a la Krypton Factor

[KeithAlexander]

What about a PPL trying to land an airbus at Belfast City, being my local airport it would be my luck that the plane i'd have to take control of would be the BMI xmas xwind special! No thanks, ill stick to 172's for the time being.

A train on the other hand, now i think that'd be a lot easier to control! just press stop, if only aircraft were as easy!! :)

[28thJuly2001]

The main point of my question was whether a PPL would have a better chance of landing a airliner than the shelf stacker at Tesco's (provided he/she is not a PPL) :D
I think the answer is Yes. I would be more confident on the radio, be able to fiddle with the Autopilot and actually understand what I am being told to do. E.G. Change the Heading selector to 140 and Altitude to 10,000 please Mr PPL..Dont touch the big red knob.etc. Might lose the undercarriage on landing but I think it is "do-able".
Now where is my after landing checklist.
Walt,,
P.S. I dont need my ego boosted, but I find it is difficult to change the conversation to me being a PPL when my workmates want to talk about (YAWN) Football. Anyone know any footballers who are PPL's so at least I will have a starting point? ;)

[Roadtrip]

Probably not, but you could crash it more gently.

[Pointy Pilot]

Mmmm, I think some of my fellow “gods children” airline pilots have been stuck in their glass cockpit comfy chairs too long and have confused systems with flying.

Last time I checked you could still fly modern airliners by ASI, VSI throttles and looking out the window. Maybe I am confused but I thought they had these in smaller airplanes as well. The one I was in last week worked the same anyway!

A PPL probably could get it on the ground. Might bend the jet a bit but a reasonably competent PPL should be able to land it and not kill everyone.

Excuse me but actually flying an airplane is not exactly the most difficult job in the world whatever it is.

Systems management and CRM are different things all together, but that was not the question was it.

Have a nice day :D

[PAXboy]

As a potential pax in the a/c that 28th is trying to land ...

I understand that one of the most difficult aspects to get used to is the position of the pilot's backside relative to the gear and trying to arrange for the gear to reach the runway first.

This has been mentioned by one person, with regards to a SIM ride. If memory serves, the 747 pilot is something like 150 feet in front of and 75 feet above the intended moment of touch down. If he/she is elsewhere it might be problemantical.

However, before 28th starts charging up the aisle, don't forget that the hostie will be able to do it. (Land the plane, I mean). And I shall resist sexist comments like, it will be easy to take over when the Cap has his heart attack as she will already be sitting in his lap.

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: PAXboy ]

[Final 3 Greens]

Guys

Here are my observations ....

I have spent 6 hours in the Trident sim (earlier mentioned in the context of Rawdata's open days, although I did not attend these, but made a private arrangement.)

I have a PPL and going on for 300 hours.

The Trident is very pleasant to handle (surprisingly forgiving), but it needs smooth and accurate attention to deliver the required performance. It also has a traditional flight deck, so the majority of instruments are not unfamiliar to the average PPL. I was fortunate to benefit from the attention of a very experienced training captain.

I have "landed" the sim about 15 times, with one touchdown being above acceptable sink limits - aka a crash, the others being acceptable.

What you learn is that the old mantra of flying instructors "performance equals power plus pitch" is spot on. Its all about being stabilised and making small corrections to hit a profile.

Could I land a glass cockpit 7X7 when stressed out as there is real danger and no instructor?

I have no idea, but I would like to say that the Trident sim work has made me a lot better handler of light aircraft and I would commend it to any PPLs out there - it will do your handling skills no end of good.

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]

[twistedenginestarter]

Final 3

Thanks for mentioning the T word. I feel a slightly happier man tonight.... even though my hanky is inevitably a bit damp

[FL245]

Well 28thJuly2001,

If I croke it at the sharp end you are more than welcome to come up and "fiddle with the Autopilot". Somehow I think the autopilot may be worst thing to fiddle with. Hit the big red button, that disconnects it. Then just pretend you are flying your C152 !!

Good Luck, if you do land it.... make sure you get the airline to sponsor you !!!

:D

[Oleo]

Hell, I have trouble landing it... and it's my job :D

[Final 3 Greens]

twistedenginestarter

Do I take it that you flew the T-bird?

FYI, the Trident Preservation Society at LHR have just repainted BA's T3 (kept at the West base) into original BEA colours - she looks lovely. What a shame they clipped the wings!

:) F3G

[foghorn]

Final 3 greens,

I have a feeling that I might have been your PNF on one of your Trident Sim sessions? Or am I getting you mixed up with someone else?

cheers!
foggy.

[twistedenginestarter]

F3G

I indeed reached Nirvana. I glimpsed glory, but all too briefly.

Been scarred ever since. And probably will be forever more...

[Quentin Wellinup]

Kurt Russell did it in Executive Decision, and he hadn't even flown solo !

So it can be done !!

[Final 3 Greens]

Foghorn

Indeed you were Sir - and an excellent one at that! Hope things are going well for you.

[leftwingdownabit]

For me - probably not very likely. For a PPL holder possibly - but you'd have to be extremely lucky I guess. Especially as you'd have to find all the right levers, knobs, buttons and gauges as opposed to getting the PNF to do the flaps etc. which you get if you're trying it in the Sim.

If you've got a PPL I suppose you have some basic idea of what is required, and the effects of the controls, power, pitch attitude and other basics. If you've messed with MSFS then you may understand some of the automation, but with the stress of the moment could you recall it? I say not very well.
Flying manually then a PPL might get it on the runway in excellent weather, but the undercarriage would probably need a service afterwards!

Having flown the Trident on one of Raw Data's Sim Days (experience of real flying - zero) I was pleasantly surprised at making a landing that was survivable. Lets not say it was anything approaching good. I think I required a hard landing check after one of my attempts! I could take off OK, once I had got over using the tiller like a ships wheel (mind the grass!), although I scraped the tail the first time according to RD. Holding altitude was best described as shaky - the manually operated pitch trim wheel took some getting used to, and +/- 300 foot was the result , although it got better. (Someone mentioned this pitch attitude precision in relation to the 737 earlier and I see what they mean) Did some ILS approaches to 27L at Heathrow - one in VFR conditions was OK, although I made a point of trying to use the quirky trident HSI for LOC/GS guidance, and one in overcast to 300 foot above (or something thereabouts) was a bit of a chase about. Not perfect, but I was allowed to make all my own flap, gear calls and handle the power levers. Of course Raw Data and my PNF were assisting with some guidance on the correct pitch attitude to get a nice sink rate, which I was messing up with my over exuberant use of the trim wheel. All in all it was a fascinating insight in to how it works, but I can't see myself managing to pull it off as a raw novice under the kind of scenario described at the start of this thread.
I think if people want to try this kind of thing - then the Trident sim offers a relatively inexpensive way of getting to grips with a commercial jet. Especially as it is from the old school of aircraft bereft of the potentially daunting modern EFIS/FMC/EICAS beasts of today. Hmmm.... I might even have another go on that Trident....

[Fil]

For those following this thread and seeing Pandoras description of what needs to be done just for an autoland (B737-400) let me try and show that a more modern design could well be easier. I use the A320 as an example but I'm sure the 777 is similar.

The main starting point is ensuring the 'box' ie the FMGC (FMC to a Boeing) is loaded correctly in regards to the Perf page. I wouldn't really wish to talk someone through programming a diversion but if there was a PPL AND and techie (computer programmer or Nintendo wiz, engineer etc) onboard then together they'd stand a better chance.

So let's assume the FMGC is fully loaded and Approach is Activated (different from Arming the Approach to capture the G/S). I'll try only to highlight the differences from Pandoras post. Actually is this happened in the cruise Activating the Approach is quite easy.

Speed should be managed if not a very simple push on the SPEED/MACH dial will sort this out. From now on speed will be controlled by the aircraft so as you extend the Flaps the speed will reduce automatically.

The ILS will autotune, all you need to do is turn on the indication on the PFD. To ident just read the ident from the PFD. Controller on ground needs only to say " Does it say I-ABC in magenta in the bottom right corner of the telly right in front of you."

The aircraft should have a complete route prgrammed in and it would be much easier to let it follow this (Managed Nav similar to LNAV) and only let the poor 'pilot' change the altitude via OPEN DESCENT in advance of needing to descend. If HDG mode is required then it's not too difficult to change and the ground guy can check what you've done by asking you to read the what the telly in front of you is saying in the 5 columns at the top of the screen.

Only the APP button will need to be pressed as it will arm both LOC and G/S and if the a/c is in the correct position this will be OK. Again (hopefully) the managed NAV will have ensured this is so.

If you don't stick in the 2nd autopilot you're only CAT3A, not essential but a simple button press is all that is needed and we become CAT3B no DH.

Extending the Flaps and lowering the gear is not too tricky especially if done early and when in managed speed. The arming of the spoilers is a simple act but essential in order to get the autobrakes to work.

If it's a long enough runway forget reverse...(this is the easy part) and do nothing what-so-ever until the a/c comes to a stop. The spoilers will deploy, the autobrakes will activate and 'roll-out' will keep the a/c on the centre line.

Then on the orders of the ground guys, apply the parking brake, just a simple turn of a lever no pressing of pedals required.

However, the flip side. If the situation is like that Airplane 7X film where a light A/C crashed into the large one taking out many of the systems...then an Airbus becomes a nightmare when you start having problems. Oh yes there are lots of back-ups etc but there is quite a bit for the pilots to do.

The other stumbling block...where is the damn radio transmit switch? It's actually the 'guns' trigger on the sidestick. But if you press the 'missiles' red button on the top of the sidestick this is the autopilot disconnect! Who would know the difference and who could you ask to find out? I personally would think this is a crucial step.

Do I think it's possible? Yeah with the right people (note people not persons as I think 2 would have a much better chance but only 1 needs to be the pilot the other needed to program the FMGC)

[Northern Lights]

Final 3 Greens & Foghorn

I've just had a great sim session with an aptly named instructor who seemed to know you and was interested in your postings!

Be warned - as he left he was muttering something about engine-out ADF approaches into a howling crosswind next time he saw you! :D

Character forming, I think he called it! :D

Saving up for another go!

[Final 3 Greens]

Northern Lights

I can believe it! He failed an engine at V2 during my first sim session.... that was cvharatcer forming.

If you see him again, pass on my best wishes - he's a top guy n'est pas?

:cool:

[carbheatcold]

What a fascinating topic.

I suspect a PPL might do it as long as the experience is not too overwhelming. I think that an Airbus would be easier than a Boeing due to the inbuilt safety features/envelope. If you can get the approach right and controlled then the langing should be straight forward but what happens if you have a slight crosswind, no autothrottle or maybe even a 1000' cloudbase, workload suddenly increases.

When I have instructed novices (non PPL's) on the sim it does not take very much to overload them and even PPL's can be caught out if the experience gets too engrossing.

Now make it real.

[Final 3 Greens]

carbheatcold

even PPL's can be caught out if the experience gets too engrossing

Personal experience agrees with you 100%!

F3G :)

[Vmike]

Before I went for the sim check for the job I have now, I went and flew that Trident sim near Biggin. I had 900 hrs-odd, about 50 on Senecas and the like, the rest on Cessnas, Tiger Moths etc. I was given a five minute briefing on how to raise and lower flaps and gear and reset the aircraft back to the start of the runway. I then flew two hours - single crew, at night, in said Trident, using B-727 speeds; mostly general handling followed by a dozen or so instrument approaches to landing. No real problems at all. A couple of days later, I went to do my sim check on a 727 sim. The training captain did the gear, set the power and flaps so the whole thing was easy-peasy. Could a competent PPL land an airliner? Hell, yes. The key word here is COMPETENT. :D

[Final 3 Greens]

VMike

Bearing in mind that the Trident is non-glass, how do you think a PPL would do if faced with EFISs that do not look like the panel that s/he is used to? I spend some time on a -400 flight deck earlier in the year and now have a rudimentary grasp of the PFDs and the colour coding etc - very clever, but quite different to the stuff that Pup drivers like me are used to.

The word from minibus drivers that I know is that handflying would be more viable than using the autopilot, because of the complexity of it.

[Vmike]

Fair point.

Whilst the Trident sim does not have quite the same instrument layout as a C152, much of it would be at least vaguely familiar to most PPLs.

The average PPL might well wonder where to start if faced with a modern glass cockpit. However, I also once had a go at an A320 sim at Gatwick and found the EFIS fairly straightforward after 20 minutes or so of playing with it. The aircraft itself was very easy to fly, especially once I got used to the inertia of the thing!

I suspect their biggest problem may not be the EFIS stuff, but using the FMS which I have to say, even after a couple of hours of playing with it, remained a mostly closed book to me.

Still, assuming the radio's working, maybe they can get vectors to a 10-mile final. I still say that most COMPETENT PPLs, certainly those with an IMC rating, should be able to put an airliner on the ground, and walk away from it - provided they can find the airport! :eek:

[Final 3 Greens]

Vmike

You lucky guy! :eek: I'd love to "fly" the A320 sim - even if the stick is on the wrong side of my left knee, it still has a stick like my Pup!

[Vmike]

F3G

Three hours in an all-singing, all-dancing £12 million sim for nothing! It was fun - Like everything else in aviation, it's WHO you know, innit? :D

[Final 3 Greens]

Vmike

Not just aviation, but life in general!

;)

[FasterFaster]

So the answer is....maybe?

[Final 3 Greens]

I think that the answer is a bit doing like PFLs in a piston single ... you can simulate it as much as you like, but you'll never know until you do one!

:)

[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]

[Thomas coupling]

Sorry, has this thread been edited by the moderator, OR WHAT :confused:

The thread started on 28th July and runs right up to today...so what?

The thread is asking how to fly an airliner and yet as the thread passes through the date 11/9/01, there isn't a flicker :confused:
Isn't this even the slightest bit suspicious?


Must be me..............................

[jugofpropwash]

Actually, I'm a long time lurker here on Pprune, and this topic (and especially it's relevence in light of recent events) is the reason I registered.

Having read thru the replies, it seems to me that you're all thinking like professional pilots - not like the poor sucker who's just found himself sitting in the cockpit.

My perspective is that of the occasional airline passenger, who's taken one of those "free first flying lessons" and who used to fix airplane/chopper radios in the national guard many years ago.

Now - given the events of 9/11, I can see a scenario in which a passenger would end up flying the plane. If you have a situation in which there is a hijacking, and the passengers revolt - the terrorist pilot puts the plane on autopilot and goes back to help control the passengers and is subdued... and they've already killed the pilots...

So, I'm assuming that I'm the first person to get to the cockpit after "we" re-take the plane. First thing I do is look out the window and make sure the plane isn't pointed toward a mountain (or a skyscraper). Next, I look for an altimeter and artificial horizon (I'm assuming even modern airliners have them - even if only as backups?) Make sure the plane is flying relatively level - if so, there's plenty of time to do this.

Next, look for the radio. Given my background, I might or might not be able to find and activate it. If I can't, then I turn around and yell over my shoulder for some help from the other passengers - all you folks back there get on your cell phones and get me connected to a tower, an airline - someone who can tell me how to use the radio and more importantly fly the plane. (I find it interesting that for all you pilots talk about cockpit resource management, I've seen very little discussed here about getting other people to help you vs doing everything yourself.)

The first passenger I see who's not screaming in panic is going to get enlisted as a go-between (at least until someone explains to me how to work the intercom). I ask them to find anyone who's a pilot and/or has played with the MS flight simulator. Assuming several people come forward, my first choice would be someone who's both, second choice is a private pilot, third choice is a computer jockey. If there are no 'real' pilots and there are a number of gamers, then all else being equal I'm picking the 14 to 16 yr old male. Why? Because the 40 yr old executive knows he's going to die - the 15 yr old knows he can land the plane. Confidence is probably better than the wisdom of age in this case.

Given that there are several people available, I'm going to put one in the pilot's seat, one in the copilot's, and another in the jumpseat. Three sets of eyes looking for a control is better than just one set. If there aren't enough "qualified" folks available, I'll take one of those seats myself.

Once we make contact by cell phone, someone can explain how to work the radio. Assuming I'm still "in charge" :), I'm going to suggest to the tower that if we have plenty of fuel, that we spend an hour or two flying the plane around, letting both of the would-be pilots practice and get the feel of the plane (rather than try to land immediately). Whoever has the best feel for the plane is going to be the one who attempts the landing.

That said... land the plane at some airport where the approach doesn't take us over the city - if we don't make it, let's not take anyone else with us.

And any landing you can walk away from is a good one, right? :)

[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: jugofpropwash ]

[inverted flatspin]

United airlines have tested a large group of private pilots on their sims. Very few of them fail to get to the airport and the vast majority land without breaking anything. the rest land in survivable crashes.

[Final 3 Greens]

Thomas coupling

Please read the thread again or grow up, whichever is appropriate.

This thread was started by a PPL asking whether he would be able to LAND an airliner, not FLY one.

This is an interesting discussion for pilots, especially PPLs who have not been able to experience a sim ride and have little understanding of how an airliner is operated.

The subsequent conversation consisted of a whole spectrum of pilots, with differing levels of qualification and experience, discussing LANDING an airliner.

If you wish to engage in consipiracy theory, why don't you start a new thread in Jetblast which is there for that kind of discourse.

This is the Questions forum and this topic is entirely appropriate, wholseome and certainly in no way connected to the tragic events of 11 September; lest we forget, maybe 6K or more innocent people lost their lives that day.

[Eff Oh]

I doubt very much, that when I was a PPL that I could land an airliner. I can not see it somehow guys. All of the sim sessions above have someone talking you through the landing. Even the course at United, they put you through a mini groundschool course, and you have more time in the sim than the average PPL!! Its a situation that has never arisen (except in the movies!) Hopefully it never will! Even for an airline pilot moving types the first look at a new flight deck is a bit confusing.
Eff Oh. :)

[Buckred]

I did it! :D It took about 5 minutes to get the hang of the controls and a few fly by's.

No instruction, just a bunch of fellas giving me a ribbing and saying they'll give me a six pack if I make it! How much motivation does a bloke need?

It was about the time I did my first solo on a C150.

Does flight sim 2000 on a mates pc count?

[Final 3 Greens]

Eff Oh

You make some good points. Also, no matter how well the sim models the actual handling of the a/c, there is no danger. You could just stand up, lower the "drawbridge" and walk away...... try that in a real plane!

So what would be the effect of danger induced stress on the performance of the unfortunate PPL in the real world? Pretty severe I would guess.

The good things about the sim experience for me were:

a- really improved my flying accuracy

b- made me much more aware of energy management and how to do it

c- gave me an interesting insight into multi-crew ops (although I am not a wannabee)

d- reinforced the benefits of following proven, robust processes (i.e. checklists)and the importance of care in doing this

All of these things have improved me as a PPL and I hope to do more sim sessions in the future as it is a great learning environment.

[ 27 September 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]

[28thJuly2001]

Removed my comments to Thomas Coupling because his post is not worthy of a reply. Just hope he gets out more.
Thanks to Final 3 Greens for his input.
Walt,,

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: 28thJuly2001 ]

[Jetdriver]

Thomas,

As the moderator I can assure you that the thread has not been edited by me or by anyone else. There is nothing in any of the replies that remotely comes close to requiring the intervention of a moderator. If you think otherwise please contact [email protected]

Between the 11th of September and your posting, there were 13 postings so as you can see nothing was edited, unless the poster chose to edit their own posting.

I may be misunderstanding the nature of your question, but I cannot really see your concern. If it is the subject matter of the original question that is concerning you I have to say that it is a question that has been asked a million times before (even if not on these forums). Suspicious ? I think not.