Post PPL flying

[bumitch]

Hi all,

I'm not far off my PPL skills test now, maybe doing it in Jan if it stops snowing!

I am now pondering the possibilities of flying afterwards. Ultimately, I want to hour build ready for my CPL, but I'm not in a rush and don't think block leasing is any value to me until the economy improves. So for the mean time, I'm happy to just enjoy GA for what it is.

My club offers a PA-28 for £150 p/h wet, which ain't bad - and as they've been so great through my training I feel I should fly with them for at least a while. But I've seen other places that are cheaper, however they want you to hold £1000 in your club account in order to receive the discount etc. Is this usual practice? Do you think this is wise these days? Any thoughts or alternatives are most welcome.

Thanks

B. Itch

[robin]

Get involved with your local LAA Strut and see what Permit aircraft are available. It will save you a fortune and give you a lot of fun

[Intercepted]

I don't know what airfield you are based at but at my home field you can buy yourself a 1/10 PA-28 share for £1500 and enjoy flying for £75 p/h with a monthly cost of £75. :ok:

This gives you an aircraft allowing you a higher degree of freedom compared to a club aircraft (full days and weekends away without a requirement of minimum hours).

If you want to do some post PPL training such as night or IMC, just add the cost of an instructor to the £75 p/h.

You get to know other pilots in the group (some of them more experienced than yourself) willing to share cost for longer/cheaper trips.

[A and C]

An interesting Group that is paying for the flying that it is NOT doing!

The £75/hour only just covers the fuel (about £62/hour) leaving £ 13/hour for the hourly costs, about £11 of that would go for the engine fund and so you are left with £2/hour to cover the other hourly costs.

The subscription fees from the bembers come to £9000 annualy, insurance I would guess at £3000, parking at about £2400, With a basic annual check at £1200 this leaves the group with £2400 for 50 hour checks and worn parts.

I don't think it will work in the long term!

[Genghis the Engineer]

An interesting Group that is paying for the flying that it is NOT doing!

The £75/hour only just covers the fuel (about £62/hour) leaving £ 13/hour for the hourly costs, about £11 of that would go for the engine fund and so you are left with £2/hour to cover the other hourly costs.

The subscription fees from the bembers come to £9000 annualy, insurance I would guess at £3000, parking at about £2400, With a basic annual check at £1200 this leaves the group with £2400 for 50 hour checks and worn parts.

I don't think it will work in the long term!

Actually I'd say that's about right; many syndicates are run without large reserves and the acceptance that the syndicate may have to come up with a contribution of a few hundred each every few years when there's a bit of a shortfall.

The two "Group A" syndicates that I belong to run on similar financial situations.


Back to Bumitch's original question - I'd recommend that you start looking around at local syndicates, either on certified aeroplanes or on LAA aeroplanes. No hurry, and you can rent this overpriced PA28 from the nice school in the meantime - but they've made plenty of money out of you already, and you don't owe them anything but good manners.

I always enjoy window-shopping on AFORS (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=browse&cat=GROUP&sec=AERO&loc=&make=&age=&price=&adage=&needle=&search=search) for aeroplanes and shares, even if I have too many already! Don't buy too big a share - anywhere between 1/8th and 1/16th is optimal since there will always be a large number of syndicate members who do little or no flying but still pay to subsidise everybody else's flying.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Do you think this is wise these days?
Most of us don't think it is wise ever.

Some will say that provided you pay by credit card, so there's a chance the credit card company will pay you back when the school goes bust and takes your money with it, then it's OK. However it might depend on whether the credit card company reckon you've been paying for flying in advance (covered) or providing a banking service to the school (not covered) - ask your lawyer first.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Most of us don't think it is wise ever.

Some will say that provided you pay by credit card, so there's a chance the credit card company will pay you back when the school goes bust and takes your money with it, then it's OK. However it might depend on whether the credit card company reckon you've been paying for flying in advance (covered) or providing a banking service to the school (not covered) - ask your lawyer first.

What Gertrude said!

£1000 of free credit to the school in return for a small discount doesn't strike me as good value, and there's a significant risk of losing that £1000 given the known volatility of the industry. At least where you invest a few thousand in a syndicate, that is owned by you as a share in the airframe, and you should pay very substantially less than £150/hr so long as you're flying a few hours each month.

G

[Lister Noble]

I belong to a group with 14 members on a permit aircraft.
The aircraft is an L4 Cub of WW2 vintage,not fast,tandem seating ,but loads of fun.
The cost of flying is very low,£35/hr all inclusuive,and not many members fly frequently,some never,we use an internet based booking systems and the aircraft is almost always available when I want to fly.
We have just bought a spare engine and still have around £6k in the funds.
The initial cost of the share was affordable and we have an annual meeting where we decide hire cost and whether we need to put a top up in the engine fund ,usually between £100-300/annum.
There are lots of groups operating like this on permit aircraft,some with shares for sale,we don't have any at the moment and ours are usually sold to friends.
When I got my licence I did about 6 hours in the PA28-180 I learned on,then got a tailwheel endorsement and since then have only flown the Cub.
As already mentioned have a look at the PFA website.
Lister

[bumitch]

Cheers for all the very helpful responses here folks. I'll certainly steer clear of the £1K up front scheme.:)

[znww5]

Another possibility would be to find a non-equity group, although these only become attractive (compared to flying school prices) if you are flying more than an hour a month and don't want to be tied into an aircraft share.

There are three of these at my airfield (Wellesbourne) and a PA28-160 would cost you £45 a month and £90 an hour with one, £60/70 with another and £40/120 with the third - although the last one has a choice of aircraft at various prices.

If you give us an idea of your location I'm sure there would be more suggestions. Good luck with the hunt :ok:

[nick ritter]

B.Itch

After my PPL (late last yr) I got a 30hr package for a PA 28 that worked out around £115 an hr and then I had to pay a fuel surcharge of 12 pounds or so per hour every time I actually went. By no means the best rate, but still roughly a 15pc discount to the rate that you mention and a further saving to the usual club rates

Obviously a group share like those mentioned above will offer potentially greater savings, but like everything they come at a cost in some other way

For myself, having just gained the PPL all I wanted was easy access to a PA 28 as and when I wanted at a cheaper rate than the club normally leased them out for. The 30hr package gave this – the cost of course was that I had to put up 30hrs worth of money. To some this may not be an option or even seem foolish, but it granted cheaper flying for myself and afforded flexibility, both of which I was wiling to pay for

It may sound silly but it also buys you time to find out more about what groups you might wish to join before rushing head first into something and finding yourself less flexible than you might have hoped

The club I fly from is White Waltham, and I am certain that there are cheaper rates around, but again everyone looks for something different

I can only talk from my limited experience, but for what it is worth, I had no issues in securing a PA 28 from WW when I wanted one under my 30hr deal (and I only fly at weekends) and even more the club were excellent at letting me have it for long period of time, (the whole day for example) even if I was only flying to northern France or some place in Cornwall for a very long lunch. While you have some money tied up with the club, you will blast through it before you know it anyway

Enjoy your flying whatever your decision post ppl

Nick

[bumitch]

Cheers,

I've never heard of a non'equity' scheme. I'll do some research as I'll certainly aim to do more than a few hours a month, this flying lark is still under my skin!

I'm in the South West (Taunton), so anything that way anyone?

@Nick - I assume your 30 hours didn't have to be done in a specific time frame. Although, if I did this and paid up front I'd probably do it in a few weeks (weather permitting of course).

Cheers:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

A web search tells me that this PA28 syndicate is on a farmstrip near Taunton. (http://www.skygod.freeserve.co.uk/gkats/dshares.htm). I know nothing more than that I'm afraid, I'm sure if you read the page and contact one of the existing owners they'll tell you plenty more.

G

[robin]

I believe its based at Curry Rivel

[bumitch]

Thanks for that Genghis, it's in Curry Rivel, but no shares available.

There seem to be plenty of options to explore, so I'll get out there and do just that.

Have a good Christmas all.

B.Itch