Holding near Madrid

[flyingtincan]

On a flight from Gatwick to Madrid a couple of days ago and when nearing Madrid we were put into a hold. I noticed, as you do, that each turn, to the right, took 2 minutes. I also noticed that that we passed a satellite ground station to the left of the aircraft at the beginning of the turn into the hold.(4 times?) As far as I could tell, from the sun and time of day, the hold was orientated about north/south.
So where were we? What are the timings for a normal hold? What bank angle did the aeroplane make in the turns and is that less than the bank when turning downwind to base? And finally, does the autopilot do it all?

[Uair]

All I can say is you were holding over NVS vor, I used to fly a lot there training for the IR exam. The satellite station you saw is named Robledo de Chavela.

[flyingtincan]

Uair, thanks for the reply. The satellite station I saw had one large dish pointing straight up and about 4 dishes pointing towards the south - no quite as large as Robledo de Chavela as seen on Google earth. Could it be another hold near Madrid?

[Johnny Tightlips]

It was probally the hold over the NVS VOR(Navas del Ray-http://www.espormadrid.es/2008/12/la-navegacin-area-en-madrid-los.html), part of the Orbis 1C arrival for 33L. I have done this hold about a billion times since I got based in MAD last summer:rolleyes: Normal timings would be 4 minutes total- 1 min each for inbound and outbound legs and 1 min each for the turns at each end, this of course if there is no wind otherwise the inbound + outbound time change to correct for the wind. We use a 'Rate one' turn which means it takes 1 minute to do a 180 degree turn or 2 minutes for a 360. In an airliner this is roughly a 25 degree bank angle and yes the FMC and autopilot work it all out.....most of the time anyway:ok:

[flyingtincan]

johnny-tightlips thanks for the reply. The turn seemed to take as long time so I began timing and got 2 minutes. So is it possible to do shallower turns if you need a longer hold? The turn to base later seemed steeper – judged by what I could see out of the window – but then maybe that was because we were nearer the ground!

[Denti]

Rate 1 turns work only until roughly 180kts. If you fly faster it is 25° bank and the turn will take longer than a minute. I don't think spanish ATCOs will do it, but many ATCOs in other countries allow 2 minute pattern (timing on the inbound leg) for passenger comfort if they expect more than one or two patterns in the hold.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

ATC can vary to hold to suit pilots but problems can occur in busy airspace as the holding area will be procedurally separated from other routes close by. Extending the hold by another minute or two could cause conflict with other traffic.

[flyingtincan]

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.
I found an old Jeppersen chart for the Orbis 1C STAR on the web and then looked on Google Earth - it does indeed seem that the hold was at Navas. I was wrong with the N/S orientation as Navas is more E/W and that then ties up with where the sun was in at about 10am.. Still not sure about the timing - maybe my Swatch runs fast at altitude!
Cheers, flyingtincan