Validity of PPL exams

[Striker]

Hello

I've been procastinating over my PPL for the last two years and now I'm in danger of my exams becoming invalid. This is all down to an incident which took place last year and it affected my confidence. I am so close to getting my PPL that I don't just want to give up. I've actually completed the required flying needed before I can do my practical exam. Anyway, I've been reading LASORS and I just want to check that I'm interpreting the wording correctly. These are the dates I took the exams:

Air Law 24th April 2009
Navigation 17th June 2009
Radio (Written and Practical) 21st July 2009
Metrorology 27th July 2009
Human Performance 26th Sep 2010
Aircraft General 25th Oct 2010
Flight Planning (Still to do)

This is LASORS:

These examinations contain multiple-choice
questions for the most part and are normally
conducted under the auspices of a FTO or
a Registered Facility. An applicant shall be
deemed to have successfully completed the
theoretical examinations for the JAR-FCL
PPL(A) when awarded a pass in all of the
above examinations within a period of 18
months counted from the end of the calendar
month when the applicant first attempted
the examination. A pass will be accepted
for the grant of a JAR-FCL PPL(A) during
the 24 months from the date of successfully
completing all of the theoretical knowledge
examinations.


Obviously my Air Law exam has expired and I will have to take it again, but am I correct in thinking that I have until the 31st December 2010 to take the Flight planning and the retake of the Air Law? I am basing this on it being 18 months from when I did my navigation exam. Strictly it will be 18 months in two days, but LASORS says it's from the end of the calendar month in which you took the first exam, so 31st December 2010?

Also, I've read how long your radio practical exam is valid for but I'm still not clear as to when that is valid until.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[Whopity]

Looking at your exams, as you have not completed them in an 18 month period, you will have to retake Air Law as you say and Navigation also runs out on 31st December so you need to retake air law and pass the Flight Planning by that date.

As you have passed both the RTF Exams you can apply for the FRTOL free of charge at any time See FCL508 SRG1106 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1106FF.pdf) Section 5 and Note 4 or you can wait apply for the FRTOL at the same time as you apply for the PPL when complete. Either way the FRTOL is free.

Pre JAA the exams were only valid for 12 months so students were always retaking exams. The current system is unbelievably relaxed.

[trident3A]

If it's not a sensitive subject, what was the incident out of interest?

[Striker]

Thanks for the info Whopity.

Trident3A. Not a sensitive issue but I was going to make a separate thread about it at some point as it's still ongoing to some extent. I was doing a solo nav when whilst looking inside the cockpit briefly at my chart and then looking outside again, I got disorientated. All of a sudden I just felt very uneasy about being in an aircraft. Over the next couple of minutes the situation got out of hand and I started to panic, felt dizzy, claustrophobic etc. To cut a long story short, I struggled through for the next 30 minutes and managed to land back at base, but once on the ground, I vowed never to set foot in a light aircraft again. It shook me up as I'd never experienced this before, and also flying is something I always enjoyed. Although I don't have my PPL yet, I've actually had quite a bit of experience of flying from being in a UAS ten years ago, doing aeros etc, so I was always confident. I spoke to several instructors about it and they were happy to let me go solo again, which I have done. Infact, my last flight was in April and was my XC Qualifier solo, which went without a hitch actually. However, what happened last year is still at the back of my mind and it's turned flying into a chore rather than something that I enjoyed. On top of that, I'm now thinking about what I'm going to do after getting my PPL. I don't feel confident about taking passengers up incase it happens again. :(

[airpolice]

Flying a light aircraft, just like being flown in any aircraft, is not for everyone.


I don't normally offer advice, Striker, but for you I'll make an exception.

Give it up.

[honda cbx]

Striker, i had an experience like that whilst under training and out on an early solo. I would say think long and cooly about giving up first, before you do. Yes its not a nice experience on one hand, but your training like mine kicked in !!. There has been a few times since then, when out with other pilots flying the aircraft, and usually the weather has become a "concern" i have remained calm and resolved the situation. Experience is a great teacher, evaluate it and learn from it, i believe it will make you a better pilot for it.

All the best.

[IanPZ]

Airpolice, that's a bit harsh!

Striker, sounds like you had a bit of a panic attack. These kind of things happen, and often, its not the thing you are doing at the time that is the problem, but just a trigger.

It also sounds like you really like flying, and want to go on with it. Don't just give up something you like, unless you actually don't want to do it again. Give it time, see how you feel, and also think about other stuff that was happening in your life when you had the panic attack. That may well give you a better handle on what was going on.

If you find after a while you are still not enjoying the flying, or just can't get past your fears, then you can see where you are at. By then, you may have decided its not for you, or that it is, but you can't get over the fears, in which case, go speak to someone about getting help, not just giving up on your dreams.

I say all of this not as someone who knows about flying (I've only just started learning) but rather as someone who has had their own share of hang-ups, and got past them.

And don't believe people who tell you they know the answers for you. You're the only one who knows the answer for you!

Good luck

[worldpilot]

Striker,

There is nothing bad in seeking advice in aviation. But be certain that, at the end of the day, it is your sole responsibility to make the final decision.

Taking a risk-based approach to your situation will definitely help you in your decision making. :ok:

If you are not certain that your "personal level" is substantial enough to minimize the risks, forget it.:=

Good luck
WP

[Whopity]

I was doing a solo nav when whilst looking inside the cockpit briefly at my chart and then looking outside again, I got disorientated. Do you suffer from any form of Vertigo? Its quite common amongst pilots but is not usually an issue in an aeroplane. Suddenly moving your view from inside to outside could trigger a reaction. A low flight over the edge of a cliff can have a similar effect, like someone with Vertigo standing on the edge of a Cliff, the brain tries to rotate the picture. Keep your eyes outside, and only glance in for a few seconds, something that should be taught in navigation anyway.

With more experience in the air you brain will adjust so don't give up, its something most people can overcome. Maybe a little basic instrument flying training would help, as its purpose is to teach you to ignore your sensors and believe the instruments.

[Striker]

airpolice I didn't explain my problem because I wanted to be told to give it up. If I wanted to "give it up" I would have done so straight after the incident. Since then I have done quite a few solo flights including my XC qualifier. The difference is now, I don't enjoy it as much as I did before. I always have this thought at the back of my mind that it's going to happen again. If that's your advice then don't bother.

Thanks honda cbx

IanPZ That is interesting what you said about the "trigger". On the day in question last year, I did two solo navs of an hour each that morning. Absolutely loved every minute of it. I had some lunch with my mum at lunchtime and then just before I went to the aircraft for the ill-fated third trip, I ended up having an argument with her over some issues to do with the family. Also, on walking to the aircraft, a flying instructor told me that he found the fuel to be "dangerously" out of balance and low in one of the tanks of the aircraft I'd just flown. Obviously I'd made an error in my fuel management not helped by unreliable fuel gauges, but I think it must have been on my mind.

Whopity I would say that I am uneasy with heights, and I always found this funny as I've never had a problem in aircraft. I don't think I suffer from vertigo in the true sense of the word as I love going up tall buildings on my travels, although I do feel a bit dizzy when doing it. As I say though, until this incident I'd never given it a second thought when flying.

I asked one of the flying instructors to take me up a few weeks after the incident, just to let me do some general handling, max rate turns etc., and that certainly helped me to get a feel for the aircraft again. But I just want to get to the feeling I had before I had my panic attack.

[airpolice]

Striker, my advice was based not on you having a panic attack or fumbling around in the air for 30 minutes without being fully in control and potentially placing lots of other people in danger. It was based on the folowing statements made by you.

but once on the ground, I vowed never to set foot in a light aircraft again

and it's turned flying into a chore rather than something that I enjoyed.

If flying is not "floating your boat" then do something else.



I am hoping you have studied the Human Factors & Performance aspect of the PPL, but you still got in an aircraft as PIC after an argument. I can see how an old hand might do that but since you are still in training, the warnings about such dangers ought to be fresh in your mind.

I would say that I am uneasy with heights...................as I love going up tall buildings on my travels, although I do feel a bit dizzy when doing it.

I don't enjoy it as much as I did before.

The picture you are painting is not that of a born Aviator, that's for sure. I'm no trick cyclist, but a blind man running for a bus can see you are not suited to this.

I think that most of us commit aviation because we enjoy it, I am struggling to see what your motivation for doing this to yourself might be.

Don't give it up for me, give it up for yourself.

[IanPZ]

airpolice. Sorry to be so direct, but "born aviator"! What a lot of rot. The only thing one is born to do is eat and breath. The rest is learning, and learning from experience.

I like what worldpilot said. Training kicked in, striker got back safe. I think the only one who can assess whether stirker put him/herself or others in danger is him/her. Why not give someone learning a chance to learn from issues and mistakes.

I find it hard to believe anyone learning something like flying never had any wobbly moments, and they can seem a lot bigger than they are.

Sorry for the strong response, but I do so hate this dismissive attitude. What happened to being supportive, rather than negative. (and please don't tell me that negative is realistic. Risk analysis requires assessment, not certainty without facts).

IPZ

[24Carrot]

Striker, one very positive feature of your story is that you have talked it through with your instructors, who both know you, and have seen a lot of other students.

As they felt OK with further solos, (and presumably also whether to contact your AME), it sounds to me like a good decision will be reached.

I won't presume to predict what the right decision is, but I hope it works out for you!

[Striker]

If flying is not "floating your boat" then do something else.

But flying did “float my boat” for a number of years, and still does.
Air police. I’m not sure whether you’re deliberately trolling, are just generally a negative or miserable person with a defeatist attitude, or genuinely trying to offer advice. What you’re saying would possibly make sense to someone who has taken one trial lesson and hated being up there. Sure, this experience after a 30 minute flight would probably suggest that they’re not suited to flying. But you’re ignoring the fact that I followed the RAF EFT course, which includes more advanced flying than the PPL syllabus. I did numerous sorties which included solo aerobatics, all without a hitch and no hint of nerves from me. I would have thought after over 50 hours doing this, my RAF instructors, or indeed myself, would have discovered that flying “wasn’t for me”.

I am hoping you have studied the Human Factors & Performance aspect of the PPL, but you still got in an aircraft as PIC after an argument. I can see how an old hand might do that but since you are still in training, the warnings about such dangers ought to be fresh in your mind.
I have studied it now. However, at the time of the incident I hadn’t yet taken that exam.
The picture you are painting is not that of a born Aviator, that's for sure. I'm no trick cyclist, but a blind man running for a bus can see you are not suited to this.

As has already been mentioned, what utter tosh. Sure, some people have the aptitude to be a pilot more than others, but I would be wary of anybody who goes around thinking they’re a “born aviator”, because one day they might come unstuck. I’d never had a problem with heights when in aircraft and to be honest, it’s not a major issue with buildings now.

The last flight I did was my XC Solo and you couldn’t wipe the smile off my face for three days after that. It went without a hitch and I didn’t have any issues, yet according to you I should have given up as soon as I landed after my tricky flight! The problem is that it’s been so long since April that naturally I’m wary of it happening again. This is a perfectly natural reaction. And let me remind you that the point of this thread was about the validity of my exams. The fact that I was asking about that and not about being nervous should tell you that it’s not exactly something that’s eating away at me. It’s just an extra concern that I’d rather wasn’t there.

I find it hard to believe anyone learning something like flying never had any wobbly moments, and they can seem a lot bigger than they are.

I seem to remember reading a couple of threads on here where quite a few professional helicopter pilots expressed occasionally having feelings of vertigo when in certain situations.



Striker, one very positive feature of your story is that you have talked it through with your instructors, who both know you, and have seen a lot of other students.

As they felt OK with further solos, (and presumably also whether to contact your AME), it sounds to me like a good decision will be reached.

Exactly. I spoke to three different instructors the next day and explained exactly what had happened. They were quite happy to let me go flying solo again just 20 hours after the incident. I don’t think they, or myself, would have put me in that position if they thought it was going to happen again. Like I’ve said, I’ve been flying many times since then, but after I did my XC solo qualifier, it was my remaining exams that I had to focus on because my instructor said I was ready for the skills test. The problem is that as it’s been so long since I last flew, I’ve got what happened at the back of my mind. But there’s no question that I’m going to just give up. If I was going to do that I would have done it last year.

Anyway, I passed my remaining exams so I've just got the skills test to do. Interestingly, even my instructor thought the exam validity is from the exact date rather than the end of the month of the month you took the first exam in. This did put doubt in my mind, but it seems to have been confirmed here that I've interpreted LASORS correctly.

Thanks anyway for the input. :ok:

[HurriRV7]

Hi Striker,

whilst looking inside the cockpit briefly at my chart and then looking outside again, I got disorientated.

Sorry to hear you became disoriented whilst flying.

Luckily for me a few years ago I was able to take a spin in a "spacial disorientation" simulator at Oshkosh which demonstrated two types of disorientation.

The first I don't recall exactly how it was induced, but I had the overwhelming feeling that the aircraft was spiraling even though the instruments and horizon of the simulator were telling me differently.

The second was MUCH more dramatic. If I recall correctly you first looked straight ahead and the simulator was put in a constant rate of turn. After a period of time the simulator asked you to reach down and press a button. The immediate feeling was like nothing I had experienced before, my brain was telling me I was tumbling and it really took a lot of concentration to convince myself that it couldn't be true. Very uncomfortable.

Now I had the huge advantage of knowing that I was going to be disoriented, you did not. If I had experienced this without forewarning, and in the cockpit of an aircraft, I too likely would have panicked.

Your reaction sounds perfectly normal to me. Think of it this way, you are now luckier than most in that when it happens again you will be prepared.

Recently when my instructor and I were practicing spins I became disoriented again when my instructor told me to check the airspeed. Of course I moved my head rather than my eyes which was a big mistake. The next time I kept my head straight and I moved only my eyes- much better!

(my apologies about the pun "take a spin", couldn't help myself...)

Regards,
Steven in Winnipeg.

[Striker]

That sounds interesting HurriRV7. Thanks! :ok:

[fader1]

Hi Striker.
I've been in a similar situation but what got me out of it was remembering that I'm never alone up there while I've got access to 121.50 for a fix on my position! My instructor drummed this into me from the very first Nav lesson, and these guys at the other end are great - very calm and collected, and they know what you're going through if you've had to call them. Just knowing they are there takes a huge weight off.
What's the worst thing that can happen if you go through this again - a bit of embarassement admitting you might be lost?
Keep on truckin'!:)

[Striker]

Thanks for the advice fader1, but it wasn't that I was "lost".

[IanPZ]

Fader1. Are you looking at this from a "reduce workload" perspective. If something happens, deal with the immediate problem, ignore the Nav side, and once things are under control, then use 121.5 if you need to?

Is that an acceptable thing to do? I ask cos I am so new to all of this, and want to learn. Ta. IPZ

[ChasG]

IanPZ - I was told to:-

1. Aviate
2. Navigate
3. Communicate

which seems to make sense :)
ChasG

[Striker]

Sorry for giving this thread the kiss of life and reviving it, but I thought I would let people know what the final outcome was.

I passed the exams but decided to have a break from flying due to moving house and other stuff getting in the way. Sure enough, time flew quicker than I thought and in October I realised that I had but two months to pass my skills test before ALL my exams expired. I booked some time off work and decided to go for it intensely. I happily got back into the aircraft and was very pleased with how quickly I picked up from where I left off. To cut a long story short I passed the skills test last month. :)

So, to anybody who may have gone through what I've gone through, having confidence problems, not enjoying your flying, or anything else which may mean you're considering giving it up. Don't. Getting back into flying is the best thing I've done and I've not been this happy for a while. I'm in no doubt what happened to me was a one-off, and I cannot wait to get flying on my own license and taking my family up. Just waiting for the CAA to get their finger out and issue my license.

:ok:

[thing]

Well done that man. :D:D:D:D

[Striker]

Thanks. :ok:

[Local Variation]

Well done.

Lack of confidence due to something unexpected happening whilst lowish hour and solo is common place.

Get some frequent hours building under your belt, find buddies to go flying with, do lots of land aways and your confidence will naturally rise to the point where you'll look back and take a different view on your reaction to what happened that day.

Remember this was never meant to be easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it.:ok:

[whosyerdaddy]

Nice one Striker! Good choice of name too given the circumstances!

This sort of disorientation is not uncommon. You dealt with it using your training and now you know that when this sort of thing happens your training will kick in.

[pilot2bornot2b...]

I am so glad to have come across this thread as I too had a bad experience on an early solo which almost made me quit and set me back at least 10 hours.

On final approach I got distracted looking for another aircraft in the circuit and found myself dangerously low and slow but as someone else pointed out in your case the training kicks in and I went around all be it shaking and with a sense of panic I had never experienced in my life.

Good to see you achieved your goal and good luck with your flying.