New Qantas Check-in and Bag Drop - Sydney

[oneday_soon]

Hi All

Recently flew out of Sydney and went through the process of the new check-in - bag drop. The technology looks pretty impressive, but my BIG CONCERN is, has the introduction of this new technology come at the expense of jobs. Have any customer service people at the front desks lost their jobs because of this?

[simsalabim]

Your concerns are well founded.Can't speak for SYD but at PER where the new system has been on trial for a couple of months the new check in system has reduced the number of face to face staff considerably. Where before at peak times I would estimate approx 8 - 12 check in staff operating, there are now only approx four (that I could see ) and they where assisting pax learn the ins and outs of the self serve system and assisting little old ladies .I would be surprised if the new system , once the inevitable teehing problems are sorted would support a permanent number of four operators. My guess would be 2 doing the work previously done by 8-12.

[hotnhigh]

Not sure why qantas don't make you take to the aircraft and load it yourself. DIY checkin dressed up as something else.

[theheadmaster]

As someone said to me - whatever the question, the answer is money!

[4Greens]

This system is getting fairly common worldwide. It is really good and quick if you dont have any luggage! Slower if you do.

[Redstone]

So with this new system, at what point do you prove identity ie: how do they verify the name on the ticket is the same as the name of the passenger?

[CabinCrew747]

NGCI hasn't cost any jobs; the staff previously behind the desks are now on the floor to assist. Identity is checked at the gate which I believe is always the case with domestic flights.

[waren9]

If that is true, why has the company paid for this technology if there are no savings?

As has been said above, the answer is always MONEY!

:hmm:

[Keg]

Identity is not checked domestically. It's entirely possible to self check in and give your boarding pass to someone else.

[gettin' there]

Would love to see what's going to happen
When the IT systems inevitably go :mad: up.
From what I have seen there are only about four
"manual" check in counters left.

[topend3]

So with this new system, at what point do you prove identity ie: how do they verify the name on the ticket is the same as the name of the passenger?

This has been the case for a few years now, with the advent of on-line check-in. Theory being that everyone and their baggage gets screened, so is identity really a big issue?

[blow.n.gasket]

topend3

Theory being that everyone and their baggage gets screened, so is identity really a big issue?


Emphasis on the "Theory " bit topend?
Ever read the Wheeler Report?
How many of the over 100 security shortcomings in that report have been addressed?
Is the Secure area really secure once someone has passed through security?
No way terrorists etc could waltz through Screening on dodgy ID's and then "acquire" whatever is needed to achieve "whatever" from an "inside" accomplice now is there?
:eek:

[topend3]

No way terrorists etc could waltz through Screening on dodgy ID's

ID's don't get checked at the screening point anyway so that does not stack up. Either have the confidence in the system that is there or change it. Knowing who someone is then won't matter at all if, as you say, people can waltz through screening undetected...

[Worrals in the wilds]

None of the relevant federal agencies were happy about the introduction of online check in, for precisely those reasons. However it's been around for a few years now and nothing terrible has happened (well not that anyone's discovered, anyway :suspect:). At the end of the day the government didn't seem to care if people substituted tickets domestically, as long as they were security screened. It's probably not as big a deal anyway, given that you can jump in your car and drive anywhere in Australia without being identity checked. Of course international travel is a whole different ball game.

With automated check in I have concerns because there's no-one to ask the dangerous goods questions in person. Ticking a box on the internet check in form isn't the same as being interviewed by a staff member, I've seen a lot of scary stuff uncovered over the years at check in (paint, resins, fireworks et al).

However, I think like online check in, it's one of those 'way of the world' things that won't change unless there's a big FUBAR caused by it. Then everyone in government will run around frantically saying that they always had issues with it, but the opposition/public pressure/big bad airlines made them do it. :rolleyes:

[topend3]

With automated check in I have concerns because there's no-one to ask the dangerous goods questions in person.

A good point - it's also worth noting that the technology unveiled recently by QF in SYD and PER will probably never make it's way into a regional or major airport terminal not owned by the airline.

[Howabout]

AirborneSoon; nice observation:
It's only a matter of time before your inflight meal drops out of a vending machine located in the rear galley...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

However, that wouldn't necessarily be a degradation in the quality of in-flight nosh that's been brought to us by the bean-counters.

I feel truly sorry for those guys (the FAs) that have to offer floor-sweepings (muesli) for breakfast and ask if I want a bloody apple.

Nirvana was Ansett's scambled-eggs, sausage and bacon during an early morning flight after a night on the turps. These days, I politely decline the floor-sweepings (not the FA's fault) and try to defeat the hangover with a grease-fix before departure (preferable) or post arrival.

Before anyone jumps in, yeah, I realise it ain't coming back - commercial reality and all.

As for 'bag-drops,' bah-humbug, what an American term. Our boy-wonder, walking abacuses don't have an original thought in their collective heads and can only ape the declining standards elsewhere in an attempt to impress the senior bean-counter.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Skytrans do a very nice bacon and egg breakfast, but the choice of destinations are somewhat limited ;).

[Nunc]

Re Kegs point, what is to stop someone checking in and giving their boarding pass to someone else-even under the old system you could have done this it just takes longer now, so much for progress.

[Section28- BE]

Nunc

Re Kegs point, what is to stop someone checking in and giving their boarding pass to someone else-even under the old system you could have done this it just takes longer now, so much for progress. Been going on since prior 09/11- with self-check, but apparently the risk assessment model hasn't flagged it yet. There was once a time as an Operator one had to "Fail-Safe" prove the Manifest- but now the air is so much Fairer......

I'd reckon we're all safe, 'Apparently'................. Mate, if you want to buy a used Trent-900, I can point you to some people who very much want to shift one.....

Rgds
28

[Pom Pax]

Well bag drop may have improved front of house productivity but nothing much has changed behind the scenery. One of my customers told me his luggage arrived in KGI tuesday 12 hours after him having done a tour of W.A.!

[geeohgeegeeoh]

I passed through syd domestic after a BA cockup forced me landside overnight.

there was a terribly nice Q chappie fielding a bunch of grumps (like me) queueing up at the platinum counter, none of us dead chuffed with the robot entry devices, and all of us feeling like the lack of counter staff was not an incentive.

If you have to stand a man there to try and feed people to your digiboxes, it is a message about customer satisfaction which the high-heidyins need to think about.

Secondly, there are a bunch of Qs about those bloody robots I need to understand before I try and use them. Like, can I use one to bump myself into an earlier flight, or does it simply book me into a seat on the 'bus that I signed up to? Because people have this amazing skill: its called thinking and I value being able to use it.

If I know the bloody pole-with-a-printer can actually get me where I want (onto an earlier flight: re-routed via another path. accept a downgrade to make the deadline. deal with my oversize bags...) I'm more likely to go there.

But when the thing just barks at me "Ven Did you lazt Zee your LUGGAGE!" its not encouraging.

[Nunc]

Thanks 28, post was tongue in cheek. Always amazed me how you had to show ID if you checked in under the old system but not this new less staff (less cost) deal. Re the Trent 900 thanks but I'll stick with a GE mate. Cheers Nunc

[Worrals in the wilds]

Personally I thought it was a good idea to require an ID check before flying (even if you did it at the gate) but at the end of the day, anyone who deals with teenagers will know how easy it is to fake a drivers license. Fortunately most of the fakes in circulation are used for nothing more sinister than sneaking into pubs, but you can't rely on them for anything more than keeping honest people honest.
Passports aren't impossible to forge by a long shot, but it takes a lot more effort to replicate the security features.

It will be interesting to see just how much labour reduction there is. A friend works for one of the big parking consortiums and reckons that the pay before leaving machines don't actually reduce your staff requirements when you factor in all the people to help customers use them, the dude to fix them when they break down and the security to prevent enterprising people taking them away with backhoes.
Also as GOGGO said, they don't present the best customer service image for a full service carrier.

[Section28- BE]

Yes/No worries Nunc- was very much being facetious as well....:E

had to show ID if you checked in under the old systemDo agree and have thought the same over the years. Have fronted the counter twice this week and photo ID required- yes, one could still hand on the boarding-pass....

But why still bother???.........., the only way to verify is (to dig detective like) in retrospect & after an 'event' with the self-serve electronic/online systems...., as opposed to an actual physical verification prior to boarding....

Rgds
28- BE

[Pera]

Used it recently in Sydney. No waiting, simple to use, bag drop worked fine. Saved about 20 mins over my usual experience of Qantas check-in at Sydney. There was plenty of humans around if I needed them.

If you have an aversion to technology then it may take some time to get used to them, but if you've ever used an ATM then you have no excuse not to be able to use these. You might need a hand the first time but after that you should be fine.

[Section28- BE]

Pera

Don't think you've quite grasped the point- tis not a technology interface issue, but a safety/risk case issue................

Renew your ASIC- then have a look and I reckon you will then have/& understand the definition of an 'Oxymoron'..............

Rgds
28

[YPJT]

A good point - it's also worth noting that the technology unveiled recently by QF in SYD and PER will probably never make it's way into a regional or major airport terminal not owned by the airline. . Maybe not the self bag drop but they are looking at installing some of the earlier generation self check in kiosks at regional airports.

[Sunfish]

Worrals:

Personally I thought it was a good idea to require an ID check before flying (even if you did it at the gate) but at the end of the day, anyone who deals with teenagers will know how easy it is to fake a drivers license.

Just a small point, but "Faking A Drivers Licence" or other ID, even as a teenager, is a criminal offence and will result in a criminal conviction for fraud if you are caught and prosecuted.

That means you won't ever get a pilots licence let alone an ASIC since you have committed a crime involving dishonesty. You won't be travelling to Canada or America either.

Kids don't understand this.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Agreed, kids don't understand a lot of things!:rolleyes:
There are also relatively few people charged for it (in this state, anyway) and the sentences tend to be low, so I don't think the risk is apparent to the average dork.
I'm not condoning the practice, but just wanted to illustrate that DLs are far from fraud proof as a form of ID.

[dizzylizzy]

@ geeohgeegeeoh: You'll find that the process is designed for the majority of travellers, who regularly pass point to point. Clearly something like this cannot anticipate the style of situation you experienced, and I highly doubt they will build that into the process.

[dizzylizzy]

As for the ATM comment, spot on.

[YPJT]

from Sunday Herald / Sun 09 Jan 2011


Strict new security measures coming
Domestic passenger ID checks
Fears criminals using "lax" security

ELECTRONIC tickets and automatic baggage check-ins could be banned and non-passengers barred from entering terminals under an airport security crackdown.

A raft of strict new security measures are being thrashed out by federal authorities worried about the ease at which criminal gangs and drug smugglers move through airports undetected, reported the Sunday Herald Sun.

Among the changes being considered for domestic airports are compulsory passenger identity checks, and even a national ID card.

Police told a federal parliamentary committee that drug-runners are exploiting lax airport security, using fake IDs to buy air tickets and smuggle drugs from Sydney to Melbourne

Authorities believe criminals are slipping under the radar because airlines do not conduct compulsory identification checks.

Committee chairman Senator Steve Hutchins said there was concern over the growth of e-ticketing and the lack of scrutiny once tickets were issued. "We were surprised at the rapid development of this innovation in air travel and the misuse of it by organised crime figures," Senator Hutchins said.

On the issue of introducing a national ID card, Senator Hutchins said it was important to know the identity of each passenger - which currently was largely not happening.

"There will be no national identity system without the full support of the Coalition, and on every occasion when that has been presented to them they have refused to co-operate," he said.

"We are talking about identification of the passenger who purchased the ticket being the bum on the seat and that is what the police force, law-enforcement agencies and other bodies have highlighted as a gap in our domestic airport security."

Any opportunity that may close that loophole must be investigated by any federal agency that has the power to do so."

Electronic check-in machines allow passengers to bypass scrutiny as it is possible to check in from a computer or smartphone, print your own boarding pass and check-in your baggage without being asked for official identification.

The Australian Federal Police Association is critical of electronic check-in and recommends the Federal Government close this security loophole immediately.

I find it rather strange that the AFP would be piping up about airport security given their response to a bunch of bikies belting **** out of each other at Sydney Airport.

[Captain Nomad]

Verifying passenger ID would be a good thing - justification for a national ID card it is not... Never been a fan of the idea, never will be.

[newsensation]

We are talking about identification of the passenger who purchased the ticket being the bum on the seat and that is what the police force, law-enforcement agencies and other bodies have highlighted as a gap in our domestic airport security."

Lets not mention the gigantic gap in domestic airport security that not everyone is even screened, why would crims need to pose as passengers when all they have to do is give stuff to there cleaner mate and have them deposit it in a place on the aircraft then have the other cleaner mate collect it at the other end! substitute engineer, baggage handler...:D

[Tiger01]

Just a Thought ....

If all security screening is being carried out on everyone properly - than it shouldn't matter what the passengers name is - hence no need for ID check.

[Spotlight]

Why are Crims even being mentioned. What type of Crims. There has never been a law in Australia that says a person buying or travelling on a ticket must be that person.

There cannot be! We are not a Stasi state. Airline staff have been indoctrinated to believe this is the case but it is not.

Airlines are common carriers, If I have lived in the bush all my life and am known by the nom de plume of Sunfish for example, am I not allowed on an Australian Airline because I have no Birth Certificate.

Free trade between borders seems to ring a bell. Don't all knee jerk off on the latest headline.

[YPJT]

Tiger01,
If all security screening is being carried out on everyone properly - than it shouldn't matter what the passengers name is - hence no need for ID check.Exactly and I believe many in the OTS feel the same way. Seems like just one senator is on a personal crusade and the police want the airlines to do their jobs for them as well.

[Qantas 787]

Agree Tiger01 - mind you, I stil think this is a deflection from the real problems from the bikie killing: the uselessnesss of 'security' at airports.

[Romulus]

Apologies but just to get back on topic...

Back from New Zealand following a wedding over the weekend. Auto checkin worked like a dream, no mucking about trying to get tokens/ID discs read by scanners just a simple bar scan and bag tag printed followed by putting luggage on a conveyor (located less than 5 metres away from checking machine) and away you go.

I still don't like the lack of a human face at check in, I would have argued that was the very last thing Qantas or any other airline would outsource/ get rid of - control of the customer interface or user experience (depending on which bit of consultant speak you want). But they have and they've done it less effectively than the Kiwis.

[Sunfish]

I think we have to be rather careful here, there are some very severe human rights issues involved and this is the thin end of the wedge. What is at stake here is ultimately your freedom of movement throughout Australia.

The first point is that aircraft passenger security checks were put in place to provide aircraft security. Nothing more, nothing less.

What the police are saying is that an aircraft security check should be used to detect crime or potential crime. That is what "drug smugglers are flying between Sydney and Melbourne" is code for.

What is being proposed, is that identity will be screened against a database before flight and security checks. If you are regarded as a potential "drug smuggler", then you and your bags will be searched for drugs, or denied the right to board, or both.

The Orwellian overtones should be clear. Once you make it onto the database for whatever reason, you will receive special attention, if you are even allowed to fly at all.

This practise, searching without reasonable cause, is already being used in Victoria by the Police. "Random" breath and drug tests aren't "random" any more. Police use a number plate recognition camera and software connected to a laptop containing a database. Traffic is scanned about a kilometer ahead of a "Random" breath testing station. If you are the registered owner of a vehicle, and you have priors for 0.05, drug use, driving unregistered, crime, whatever, the laptop beeps and the police radio your details ahead to the supposedly "Random" testing station and you get pulled over for special attention. I predict doubts over the legality of this practice will make it to the Supreme court one day.

It is blindingly obvious that this capability will be misused. It already is in the USA. All sorts of political activists have found themselves singled out for special attention every time they fly. The "security checks" are now basically a check on your activity and reason for flying; as can be seen in this recording of a political operative being interrogated about the $7000 in cash he is carrying:

YouTube - Secret recording of TSA threatening passenger Part 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEJpzVPmih0)

[mcgrath50]

On the human rights of it all, prior to the 1900s it was generally recognised that people had freedom of movement anywhere, I couldn't be denied movement across borders.

Sunfish, I hadn't heard of that, but it would explain why recently in Victoria (as a P plater) I was 'waved past' by an RBT late at night when usually the police are very interested in P platers.

[Skynews]

There was a "security expert" :hmm: :ugh::hmm: n tv this morning discussing this topic. He indicated that ID will be required again in the near future.

I do not understand why I should have to provide ID.
If I catch a bus, drive a car or catch a train I don't so what's the big deal about traveling domestically within Aus?

How about they get the joke we call security some what effective before introducing more useless layers.

Screw the ALP senator. :}

[mcgrath50]

If the security screening stopped people taking on illegal things (bombs, drugs whatever) onto the plane there would be no need for ID. I can see the point for cash purchased tickets to confirm the name in some way.

[peuce]

Say new ID laws come in .. and say that deters baddies from taking drugs by aircraft to Melbourne ... does that then mean there will be more drug runners on our roads ... in our buses ... and in our trains .. ?

If so, does that create any concern for the Authorities?

[breakfastburrito]

I do not understand why I should have to provide ID.
If I catch a bus, drive a car or catch a train
You don't have to yet.
“I think the tighter we get on aviation, we have to also be thinking now about going on to mass transit or to trains or maritime. So, what do we need to be doing to strengthen our protections there?”
The TSA scanning program is being proposed to be rolled out to bus & train stations by Janet Napolitano. Soon the definition of a "terrorist" could be changed to someone who disagree's with big business or government. Perhaps a "terrorist" will be deemed to be someone who posts on PPRuNE, retrospectively, of course . The tracking tools are already being flagged (Obama Eyeing Internet ID for Americans ( http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20027837-501465.html)).
It would seem that history suggests what the US gets, we will too. Welcome to the new police state, run by the private corporate giants, enforced by governments.

[rmcdonal]

does that then mean there will be more drug runners on our roads ... in our buses ... and in our trains .. ?
I can't see why they wouldn't just load up a car and drive sensibly from one City to the other. You could do it in day, at the speed limit, with stops. The cops aren't exactly going to pull you over for a car search. And you have no fear of drug sniffing dogs at the airport.

[simsalabim]

The Australian Government is way ahead of the USA government in controlling "undesirable" activity on the internet. It is called the National Broadband Network and it is coming soon to your residence , at a cost, weather you want it or not. It is costing the Australian Taxpayer $43 billion dollars at a time in history when the Australian government has divested itself of almost all public owned infrastructure and services. The reason is clear. Who ever controls the Net controls the content . The main stream media is already in their pocket . Any threat to the masters must be eradicated.
The airports are now check points for the general public.Where you travel , when you travel and what you are doing travelling is vitally important to the Neocons as the TSA tapes on Youtube illustrate .The truth may set you free but first it will frighten the s%^t out of you.Enjoy free speech while you can.

[kiwi grey]

Romulus said Back from New Zealand following a wedding over the weekend. Auto checkin worked like a dream ...Yes, it does now, but a few months ago a TV3 News reporter demonstrated that the system had more holes than a large colander. Amongst other things, it allowed somebody to print a second boarding pass (with a new seat allocation) for a person who'd already checked in. Free travel. Oh, and to make things worse, she checked in as Steven Joyce, the Minister of Transport :E
Of course at the gate, the operator says "You're not Steven Joyce" (largely on account of the reporter being of the female variety). So the reporter says "Nah, I'm Joyce Steven, bloody computers, etc." and got on the aircraft and flew to Auckland. :{

You think that's bad? Don't worry, it gets much, much worse.
The same reporter then checked a bag in the name of a passenger she knew was already through security. There could have been anything in that bag, it was in the other passenger's name, and he knew nothing about it. :D
That got CAA & the Minister engaged, I can tell you.

'Security'? Yes, we've heard of it ... :ugh:

Of course, it's all been fixed now ... they say.
I wonder if the version of the software in Australia has the same interesting features? Or has it been fixed too?

Edited to correct unbalanced quote marks.

[blow.n.gasket]

Didn't the Unions point out the security holes in this system prior to it's introduction?What was the response from Management?
More of "Safety is our highest priority"(after bonus substantiation of course):}

[gobbledock]

The Australian Government is way ahead of the USA government in controlling "undesirable" activity on the internet. It is called the National Broadband Network and it is coming soon to your residence , at a cost, weather you want it or not. It is costing the Australian Taxpayer $43 billion dollars at a time in history when the Australian government has divested itself of almost all public owned infrastructure and services. The reason is clear. Who ever controls the Net controls the content . The main stream media is already in their pocket . Any threat to the masters must be eradicated.
Correct. Draconian laws, technology and paranoid governments are the mixture of the new world order. The Internet at present can be barely controlled, hence Obama's wanting a 'big switch' to shut it down when the heat in the kitchen becomes to great. And what are they afraid of ? - People who see through the smoke and mirror acts and are aware of what they are actually about. This threat must be curtailed.

Governments are now struggling to control the masses and what they see frightens them. No longer do you have to attend a rally in some faraway state, just jump online and have your say.The internet is global and it creates a way for individuals to unite creating strength in numbers. The governments hate a crowd that cannot be controlled. Yet in reality they have us by the dusters anyway with the false and manipulated value of 'paper' money which is a farce, a federal reserve which is actually a non-government banking cartel which has pulled governments strings since 1910. And it is one of this centuries greatest snow jobs which is coming to a head, yet the majority of people go about their existence blissfully or arrogantly unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that a complete global meltdown is nigh.

Yes, do not fear the occasional drug smuggler sneaking his few ounces of ganja between states or the occasional fool getting busted for DD, big deal.
Scanning, monitoring, recording, disseminating personal details and so the list goes is all a ruse for tracking, observing and information gathering on people in society that pose a perceived threat to the government puppet masters.

[mcgrath50]

Bring back feudalism I say, that's where it all went wrong!

[gobbledock]

With a dash ox Marxism ??

[Sunfish]

Sunfish, I hadn't heard of that, but it would explain why recently in Victoria (as a P plater) I was 'waved past' by an RBT late at night when usually the police are very interested in P platers.

Yup, I was made aware of this through "semi official sources". If you are a "cleanskin" or the car you are driving is registered to a "cleanskin" and the cops are reasonably busy, you can expect to be waved through. It's happened to a few perplexed friends as well.

Please note that not all RBT operations use this technology. You will also see strategically placed unmarked cars on major highways and arterial roads from time to time - they are looking for unregistered vehicles or vehicles registered to drivers who have lost their licence, or don't even have one.

The use of this technology, if its coupled with train bus and aircraft ID requirements, gives a government complete control of individual movement. The Soviet Union had internal passports for this purpose.

[breakfastburrito]

Internal passports is exactly what I have been thinking about Sunfish. The only other piece of the puzzle required is the one in most peoples pocket - the mobile phone. My understanding is legislation requires tower records to be to be kept by the mobile phone network operators for 7 years, enabling real time & historical tracking by triangulation. The battery needs to be removed to prevent this "feature" being utilized.
Roll on the police state.

[skybed]

internal passport as it would leave 500 000+ illigal immigrants to put where?:hmm:

[YPJT]

Qantas would not have undertaken the implementation of self check-in / baggage drop without a lot of consultaton between their security people and the Office of Transport Security. I think it will take a lot more than an individual senator and cops crying that the baddies are getting away to roll it back.

[breakfastburrito]

Any "Illegals" (those without internal passports, or those that can't use their own "papers" for a variety of reasons) become the new underclass, abused by unscrupulous employers, landlords and whoever else can stick it to them. There will be a thriving black market in services and "protection" to these individuals.
Ask yourself the question, have your activities become more or less controlled & scrutinized over the last 1,5,10 or 20 years. Before you answer that think about the use of the tax file number, 100 point check to get a mobile phone SIM card, open a bank account amongst other things. Consider how many genuine physical cash transaction you actually do in a day. Basically every cashless transaction you have ever done is sitting on a database waiting to be mined.

As an example, I recently opened a bank account. To my amazement, my profile now includes all my details of an account I had closed in 1987, and I had forgotten I ever had.