Ipad, PocketFMS or SkyDemon?

[jkveenstra]

I would like to buy some GPS software and hardware.

I've evaluated PocketFMS on a Navigon 8410 Car navigation (with Windows CE). It works very nice, but is rather slow. Skydemon also runs on a Windows CE device, but I did not have the change to evaluate it.

The Ipad looks very nice and runs smoothly. It runs Air Navigation Pro (http://www.xample.ch/page0/page1/page1.html)

I'm not sure what to buy. PocketFMS and SkyDemon have more accurate data (also metars and notams) than Air navigation Pro. The huge advantage is that I could use the Ipad also for other means.

What is the best software/hardware to buy?

Thank you for your comments.

Ps. I read the posts about the Ipad on the forum, but I couldn't find the comparison

[dublinpilot]

First of all, I should make it clear that I'm a beta bester for PocketFMS, so you should bear that in mind when reading my answer ;)

I would say that you should ask yourself what you want it to do for you. If it's simply to show you where you are on a map, then Air Nav Pro may be sufficient for you, and save you some money over the others on the software cost. (Not sure if you've already purchased the hardware or not). I haven't used air Nav Pro, but understand that it is very slow, and only shows airspace close to your current level. But I'm sure there are Air Nav Pro users here who can better comment.

If you want to use it to do some planning, then the data becomes much more important. You can always do your planning the traditional way (Chart etc, of course making sure that you update them by hand as amendments are published!) But if you want to use flight planning software, then you really need the data to be accurate.

If you want the GPS to show you where you are in relation to airspace, and to warn you if you are about to enter airspace, then you really really need the data to be accurate.

If you want to fly to foreign countries, then I think you'll find that having accurate data that you can trust a big advantage.

PocketFMS, has pretty much worldwide data, and all is included with the system. Metars/Tafs are also included, but so is advanced weather. Advanced Weather includes hour by hour forecast for the next 3 days, winds aloft, and rainfall radar (not for all regions, but all if available in Europe).

dp

[jkveenstra]

Thank you for your reply.

Last week I bought the Navigon 8410, but I can still return it. I run the 30 day evaluation version of PocketFMS on it. Next week I will be flying.

The discussion came up , as a friend of mine was telling about the Ipad and its possibilities. Personnaly I think the Ipad is a nice piece of kit, but could be rather large in the cockpit. The advantage of the car nav is that you can mount it near your instruments (and you don't need to look down on your knee).

On the other hand I could utilize the Ipad for other means.

As I fly from Eindhoven, which is near the German and Belgium border, it could be very practical to have actual data of the countries.

It just want to hear the opinion of others, before making up my mind.

[IO540]

With IT, you have to follow the 1960s mainframe purchasing advice, which remains true today:

Find the application software which does what you want, and then find the hardware that runs it.

Nowadays, everybody is doing it the other way round. They buy an Iphone or an Ipad, and then they tear their hair out when they find it does 75% of what they need.

The Ipad is a superb PDF reader, but not a lot else (for European aviation, currently).

My view, having spent way too much time playing with gadgets for aviation, is that the IT requirement works best when split between ground and air.

For ground stuff you just want a nice slick lightweight laptop, and everybody and their dog makes those, from £300 for the cheap ones to close to £2000 for the really slick ones. It will come with windoze so it will run everything needed, straight out of the box.

For airborne stuff, what do you really want? A good VFR GPS, running the "printed" CAA chart, is highly desirable. But you don't need a lot else, because you have basically pre-planned the trip before departure.

For IFR pilots, there is a utility in displaying approach plates etc but what if this device packs up? Any electronic device can fail. This leads to the inescapable conclusion that one either needs to have the main stuff pre-printed (and rely on some electronic device, loaded up with loads of plates, for emergency / unplanned diversions, and this is what I do, basically), or one is a bit reckless, IMHO. Or one can backup the electronic device, with a second one :)

[englishal]

I had the chance to view the Skydemon mobile thing a few weeks ago and I've got to say I was very impressed by it.

The think I like about SD is that the desktop application and the handheld intercommunicate so you can send your flight plans to the handheld device. Not only that but it downloads the notams & weather onto the handheld device so you get a visual representation of them in the cockpit (at the time of download of course).

I use a Garmin 496, Aera 550 and Garmin 430 as I prefer "proper" aviation GPS's. The 496/550 are brilliant VFR aviation GPSs with a host of functions, but I could see the SD as a useful backup if you could mount it suitably. The 430 is only really good for IFR, which is why we run the 430 and Aera at the same time.

[Miroku]

I have the Airbox Clarity and am mightily impressed with it. Flight planning software is included and you can have notams and weather if you want.

When I spoke to Airbox at the NEC last weekend, I was told that some more additional software would be available before Christmas. This would allow flight plans to be printed off together with some other things I've forgotten.

[AN2 Driver]

Pocket FMS user here.

I have to say that I do like the product plus I think it is the one with the best cost effective navdata i have seen. I run mine both of a HTC Smartphone and an old Medion PNA 150, works well on both of them. Detail and data are 2nd to none.

If you go flying high, you need to watch the fact that the airplane profiles and performance calcs are really for flat landers. The program does not provide for complex performance calculations and is based on IAS rather than TAS, which is fine <4000 ft but gets really interesting over the Alps. Took me a while to fiddle the settings to get a representative calc. Until that is fixed, I'll back up my flightplanning with other solutions.

But otherwise, for VFR, I'd hate to be without it. It also does export to Garmin devices, so even as a planning tool for routings only with subsequent transfer to a Garmin, it does the job wonderfully. Much cheaper than the opposition and better in many regards too.

[jkveenstra]

Thanks for all the help. Let me clarify my purpose for the different platforms.

I'm a low time pilot and wish to use a gps device as a backup for the old fasioned navigation. As the netherlands is quite flat, there is no need to fly high. Second, the platform can help me plan the flight (notams en weather). Next, the device can help me stay out of airspace, i'm not supposed to be in.

I still have to make op my mind. :ugh:

[seat 0A]

Goedemorgen,

I`ve tried pocketfms for a year. I was not happy with it because:

-The hardware keeps crashing and when it does run the battery dies quickly.
-The program is not very user-friendly IMHO

The only thing I did like, was the PC-planner. I didn`t renew my subscription. In any case, I think you would be best off with a dedicated aviation GPS. Preferably hooked to the onboard battery.
And don`t forget to use it as a back-up! Especially since you are low-time. Remember, the real wordld is out there and your GPS might crash any minute.

[Bobby Hart]

I still have to make op my mind.

Most systems have a trial period, and you can get a good idea of how they feel before you commit money.

I was thinking about getting an iPad, but I like SkyDemon and they dont work together. I am watching out for news of other tablets that might run it properly.

[stevelup]

It should work fine on any Windows based tablet.

[IO540]

We tend to always come back to the same old issue: none of the "cheap" tablets (which includes the Ipad) are sunlight readable.

One can "make do" of course, by moving the thing around suitably, and all full members of the Church of Steve Jobs will be doing that as a matter of course :)

A sunlight readable tablet exists only in a windoze product and costs about £2000.

[Bobby Hart]

A sunlight readable tablet exists only in a windoze product and costs about £2000.

Interesting... Do you have a link?

[manix]

I've been using SkyDemon in the UK for about 15 months now (it's only been on the market for about 12 months, I was using the beta versions prior to the launch). Initially I used it for planning only and uploaded the routes to my Garmin 196, but have recently installed the in flight version on a Windoze pocket PC device, which is working superbly.

I haven't tried pocketfms. Prior to Skydemon I tried Memory Map (flight planning and in flight), Flitestar VFR (flight planning, routes loaded to Garmin), SkybookGA (flight planning, routes loaded to Garmin) and UKGA.com (flight planning, routes loaded to Garmin).

Of these, IMO, Skydemon is by far the best with up to date charts and airspace; NOTAM, TAF and METAR download and decode (plus interactive display of these on the planning chart); weight and balance calculation; fuel calculation; PLOG print; in flight airspace and terrain warnings etc etc (see their website for full details).

Download the 30 day free trial from their website, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[IO540]

Here (http://www.sumotech.com/english/hardware/st312_overview.php).

You remove the silly rubber corner pads. The device can be ordered with or without the GPRS/3G radio, and you don't want the common options (for the kind of market where most of these go into) of a barcode reader :)

I nearly bought one of these, but decided, for the moment, to keep my 2005 Motion LS800 which does just about do all I need (and which cost nearly £2000 back then).

This (http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/ls800-v-x70ex/) illustrates the typical sunlight readability issues. They don't bother some people but I flew for about a year with an IX104 tablet which had a normal LCD (despite being another "ruggedised" job) and the display was not really acceptable.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I heartily agree with IO540 on two points:

1) from professional experience and insight, with a little extension to Peter's phrase: first find the application software that does best what you want done. Then find the best O/S that it can run on, than find the best hardware the O/S can run on. "Best" having to concur with the limits of budget.

2) from hearsay, here and elsewhere, but VERY consistent - and also from limited personal experience: sunlight readability is the prime factor in choosing hardware. The Asus eePC 900 I tried is absolutely worthless under bright sun.

[IO540]

I had a EEE901 which I sold last week on Ebay :)

Yes, unreadable in sunlight.

Sadly there are no easy solutions. The proper readable LCDs have multiple polarising layers. Plenty of examples e.g. here (http://www.rugged-systems.com/pages/home/default.asp) - at the correct price, rarely below 2k ;)

[Bobby Hart]

These do look like very pleasing devices and the GPRS option could be quite handy but £2000 feels like a lot. I suppose I could get a USB keyboard and use it to replace my existing laptop...

Has anyone actually used one inflight? If so, how did you mount it, and what were you running on it?

[IO540]

I saw the ST312 in Germany. A stunning display. It was being sold by some German Jepp dealer who jacked up the price by a huge amount, hoping nobody knew about google :)

IMHO, the GPRS/3G option is worth less for mobile internet (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/mobile-comms/index.html) connectivity than might appear, especially for people travelling abroad, because it is useless when airborne, and it needs a SIM card to be internally mounted. The SIM card needs to be administered (contract, or PAYG with some means to monitor the balance and doing topups). I have a Thinkpad x60s laptop with this option, with a PAYG SIM, and it's "nice" but gets rarely used. A heavy user would just get a contract SIM but otherwise it is a hassle, and if you step outside the EU you can blow away the balance rapidly - unless you buy a local SIM card. IMHO, a bluetooth connection to a GPRS/3G capable mobile phone is a lot more usable. The Huawei E585 (and a wifi connection) is another way. You have the same issues with the Ipad, except 99% of those are used within the UK only and they will be on fat-fee contracts; Apple users seem happy to pay almost anything for the constant connectivity.

You could use a bluetooth keyboard (http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/freedom-mini-duo-bluetooth-keyboard-p11295.htm) too, though those obviously need batteries. Years ago I had one (http://www.amazon.com/Stowaway-Ultra-Slim-Bluetooth-Keyboard-Handhelds/dp/B0002OKCXE) for a PDA; rarely used it.

The thing is that once you start talking about keyboards, you may as well get a laptop :) There are of course convertible laptops (where the screen folds back to make it a tablet e.g. the Fuji P5010) but again none of those were ever sunlight readable.

Airborne, I've never found any need for a keyboard. There is a somewhat contrived application for one if you have a satphone and then you can do emails...

Like I've said before, it gets easy enough if you divide the job into ground and air. The ground stuff is best done with a light windoze laptop.

[roofy]

Like others I have tried one or two of the units listed but Sky Demon is and has been for over 12 months my current get me there and get me back tool of choice. It is simple to operate, very comprehensive, provides all that a vfr pilot requires, is being constantly added to and updated. I have used it both in the UK and mainland Europe and have found it an invaluable companion both when planning and when flying.
Roofy

[Bobby Hart]

I saw the ST312 in Germany. A stunning display.

Intriguing... I will have a serious think about it. Thanks for the tip!

[IO540]

One thing you will find with these special LCDs is they are great for textual stuff but not so good for movies, etc.

The multiple polarising layers don't look so good for general use - a bit like Thinkpad laptops (widely regarded as the best quality business laptops) are relatively poor for photos and movies.

If you want a pretty display, get an Ipad :)