Multi Hours

[bushav8er]

How to get them?

It seems that the person that uses the instructor route for career entry has an advantage over the person that takes the bush path.

The instructor flies circuits and gets multi time and an ATPL in short order, while the bush guy gets real world experience, often has more total hours and still has to add hours for their ATPL and has little or no multi time.

Here I sit with an ATPL, 8000 hrs, turbine (2000) and IFR - all single engine and only 70 multi total and run into the 'insurance' and Contrail minimums of 250 multi to 500 multi. Even at the SPIFR TC requirement of 100 I'm short.

I've been around long enough to know that some companies will wave some time based on experience but I still feel that I'm being passed over due to low multi time.

Surely someone with my time and experience is a 'better' pick for right seat than a person with 1200 tt, 800 turbine and 300 multi, not to mention the faster upgrade?

So, seriously, without spending a pile of cash to build multi time - how does one get it? I'll gladly do the 'small company' thing but NOT the 'bad operator' bit.

Any suggestions?
Thanks

[Pilot DAR]

I wish I had an answer, because I sure agree with:

Surely someone with my time and experience is a 'better' pick for right seat than a person with 1200 tt, 800 turbine and 300 multi

Perhaps you could find some volunteer flying with a relief organisation, or go fly jumpers to build multi time ...

Best of luck

[canadansk]

Earlier in my career when I was involved in helping choose who to hire, we would have chosen you over the "instructor" for the very reasons you state. Most of us have been where you are and can sympathise with your plight; however, if you keep trying I am sure things will work out for you. Good luck to you.:ok:

[THEICEMAN]

What a bunch of garbage! Trying to bash instructors with this ridiculous notion that it's not real time.:=
The real life skills that you learn being an instructor are extremely valuable. Teaching has not only made me a better pilot, but has prepared me for the next step. Although you are an experienced pilot, bushav8er. How many of your hours are actual IMC??

Flying the Bush does have its merits and it does give you real life ops experience. I'm not refuting that. But your comments towards instructing experience are unfounded.

I don't want to turn this into a Bush flying vs instructing. All i'm trying to say that instructing experience should not be shrugged off nor frowned upon.
For the chief pilots who discredit instructing time as not being not real. Well, all I have to say is that it's your loss!

BTW, instructors don't just fly circuits in the twin. Back in the day, I have flown many long distance trips throughout the Continent and have flown countless approaches down to minimums.

[bushav8er]

Thanks for the replies.

Iceman, chill. I don't recall my comments knocking instructors merely as a comparison between the two career paths and the advantage instructors seem to have, deserved or not, over their bush counterparts. They acquire the hours needed for ATPL and multi faster than bush drivers.

My example of a person with 1200 tt, 800 turbine and 300 multi also didn't state they were an instructor, it was merely an experience point.

How many of your hours are actual IMC?? I only started the out-of-bush path in the last 2 1/2 years and have logged 185 hrs actual - and ONLY actual IMC/IFR, most as PIC. How many blowing, tree top, 1 mile no GPS have you logged? Kind of makes most IFR approaches seem like a nice day.

Sure 100% of the flying is not in the circuit but the schools I saw "back in the day" and even lately, don't stray to far from home and often do it 'under the hood'. It seems so rare for them to fly 'actual' that it seems to be a selling point for some schools when they have to point out that they "Train in actual IFR/approved for known ice" in their ads.

If I were to say something about instructors, at least the ones I've seen its this: They are professional, know the theory inside and out and have some 'hands and feet' skills, though they are very 'mechanical'. What they lack, on an equal hours experience level, is judgment and decision making because of their lack of exposure.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Wouldn't it make more sense if flying instructors had to have commercial flying experience before they became flying instructors?

[pcm]

That would be fantastic Chuck, except the masses would have to pay for it. How many initial students would be willing to pay those rates? I could see the odd person doing it but not the majority.

Bush just keep applying everywhere, I'm sure there are a lot of operators looking for exactly what you have. If I were you I would be going after a twin operator with the possibility with a fast upgrade, based on your experience. Good luck!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

That would be fantastic Chuck, except the masses would have to pay for it. How many initial students would be willing to pay those rates? I could see the odd person doing it but not the majority.

First off flying instructors should be at the highest end of the pay scale in aviation.

When I was teaching flying I demanded and got top pay and was never short of students.

Second, experienced well paid flying instructors will get their students through in a shorter time frame.

The masses will pay what the industry demands.

bushav8er, keep looking there are companies out there who will give you what you want.

[bushav8er]

Thanks for the support gentlemen.

Chuck, I've said before that instructors should have 'operational' experience first and that's one of the reasons I didn't take that path, but I don't want to get into that debate.

Anyone here owned or been in a hiring position in the past - 703/704, float, IFR, Navajo, KingAir to 1900 size? I've submitted my resume to a lot of companies, some that I felt I was a 'shoe in' for the position; same aircraft, quick upgrade (even with low multi) etc but haven't heard a peep. I'm wondering if my CV needs tweaking. Someone willing to review it for me?

(BTW , anyone familiar with the 'other forum', 99% of mine was used by "xsbank" as an example in his sticky on the subject. I'm not knocking him or his assistance with it, merely looking for more input.)

Thanks.

[pcm]

Chuck I'm not disagreeing with you. The best instructors are going to be the most experienced. I'm not sure what you taught (specialty?) but I would guess most PPL/CPL pilots wouldn't pay 200 an hr for the best instructor when they can get a good one for 50 an hr. I wouldn't have paid it.

Bush have you visited the companies that you're applying to? As long as your resume is "normal" there is not much difference. Everyone wants to hire themselves. Show up in person, talk to the CP/HR and make yourself known. Be persistent without pestering and I'm sure it will work out.

[bushav8er]

I agree with you PCM however where we live, anywhere is a trip that involves travel, meals, and motel costs we can ill afford. I've been 'off' now for 10 months and have a mortgage among others. (This is the first time in 30 yrs I have been without a job)

Reviewing my CV/Resume is the simple first step, anybody?

[downnorth]

bushav8er, do you mind sharing a breakdown of your hours per aircraft type and PIC hours?

[bushav8er]

Sure check your PMs.

[Mostly Harmless]

It is always disappointing to see someone slam the instructors because I doubt any one of you was born with a licence in your hand.

I have done both... started instructing and then moved into the bush. The holier than thou attitude you did display in your first post is more than likely your problem with finding a job. I know you don't think what you just said was negative, but it was and it was quickly picked up. It will be quickly picked up by any interviewer. I know it's just the internet, but put on a happy face and never ever imply anything negative about the other guy.

I would bet that you are fighting your experience level here. You said it yourself, you can be upgraded quickly.... all the way to a nice corporate job or airline job. No matter how much you might insist that you won't leave (and you might not) the guy doing the interview is likely thinking, "liar." I had the same problem back a few years ago. I was too experienced and told to my face I would leave too quickly and they wouldn't get their time out of me. When I finally did get a break, I made sure to stick around and see that they got my loyalty, but eventually it was time to move on and up.

Here's the God's honest truth from a guy who was a CP and did the hiring and interviews. Don't **** on the guy's who got you through your licence, don't **** on the guys you fly with in the bush or the rampies or the son of the Air Canada pilot that just walked over top of you... any negativity on your part shows through and turns the interviewer off like a light switch, in spite or your experience levels. It shows a lack of class and character. I had a l lot of good help from friends, so never say you got where you are today on your own.. you had help. We all did.

That's my two cents, take it or leave it and good luck out there.

[bushav8er]

*sigh*
Its my frustration that is showing, not any (intended) negativity. I'm not an English major, maybe it could have been worded better.

Here's the God's honest truth from a guy who was a CP and did the hiring and interviews. Don't **** on the guy's who got you through your licence, don't **** on the guys you fly with in the bush or the rampies or the son of the Air Canada pilot that just walked over top of you... any negativity on your part shows through and turns the interviewer off like a light switch, in spite or your experience levels. It shows a lack of class and character. I had a l lot of good help from friends, so never say you got where you are today on your own.. you had help. We all did. Darn good advise there but I resent that you imply I fall into that group.

"Slam" "bash" pretty strong words. It is not, was not, my intent to belittle this apparently sensitive (instructor) group.

Again, I praise instructors and their skills. They are professionals.

I was trained by an eager and knowledgeable Air Cadet, a Military pilot and a pilot that flew a variety of WW2 aircraft and had been instructing since wars end. Maybe I'm biased towards experience levels. The newer, younger instructors I flew with for multi/IFR were knowledgeable and professional and I learnt from them. When I need rust removal I look to them for their guidance, and continue to learn.

Again, I presented the point as a comparison between career paths. Two people of equal times and years experience; one bush and the other instructor, apply for a light twin, IFR position. It appears that the instructor is the one that would get the position.

I have been in the position of CP also, granted for smaller 703's. I weighed each candidate as an individual on their merit and personality; experience being equal. I would hope to be judged for the same thing.

I don't put down anyone, from rampie to co-workers to FOs. I was 'them' once too. In fact, I often looked to my FOs for input as they had a little more time in the IFR field than I but I also pointed out when they were in error.

I, often to my dismay when it comes to the aviation industry in Canada, honour my word and hold, frequently an unwarranted , loyalty to the company for which I work. I actually have the mind set that I won't even apply to a company if I think I can't remain with them for a fair length of time, it'd be unfair to us both. I know others would say get it, get the experience and leave.

I do NOT want to move on or up, I'm looking for a retirement job BUT one that has good maintenance, wages and is a family, frankly one that treats its employees fairly, one that deserves loyalty. When I say 'quick upgrade' I meant to Captain because I fully expect, and would expect, to be an FO first. I do not want 705, corporate, or shiny airplanes.

Original question: How does one acquire multi time when they are NOT an instructor, because I can not go that path?

New question again:
Point of this whole thing is I'm NOT getting any interviews or calls. So, all things being equal maybe the problem is my cover letter which is why I asked for help and a review. ...but all is silent on this front.

Its the Christmas Season so enough of this - Best Wishes, have a safe and Happy holiday, fly safe everyone.

B.

[Mostly Harmless]

I can see that you honestly have a good attitude, and I understand it is very frustrating. I find it odd that you see the instructors as getting ahead because they see the bush pilot get the job every time...

I wish I could offer some solid advice on how to get those calls moving. I really do think you are fighting the fact you have (and I know just how stupid this is because I was there once as well) too much experience in a certain area of operations. It seems CP's are, all too often, quick to type-cast a guy in this industry instead of look at individual merit. It is disappointing.

Sorry if I was being harsh, but I did want to get my point across, nothing negative. I'm sure you already know it, but it is so damn hard for all of us to self monitor, me included.

Look for an operator who has equipment you are already typed on, and bigger airplanes as well. Stalk 'em 'till they hire you are get a restraining order. Get in the door on what you have, then move inside the company if you can. Get some guys to look the resume over for advice (I see that's already happening). Ask for help from all of your friends and contacts. Mobilize everyone you know.

Most of all, I wish you the best of luck. It's a bad time of year to be looking for work but I will keep my fingers crossed. If I had any contacts left at the charter level, I would do my best.. but I have lost contact with all and most have moved on as well.

Merry Christmas and may the coming year bring you all you desire.

[bushav8er]

Just a public - thank you - for that Mostly Harmless. I'm glad we could work things out, I came to these boards because people said it was more 'mature' than 'the other', glad to see its true.

Look for an operator who has equipment you are already typed on, and bigger airplanes as well. Stalk 'em 'till they hire you are get a restraining order. Get in the door on what you have, then move inside the company if you can. I have been doing that too but will focus on it more, its good advice.

Still need a review of my Cover.
Anyone in a position of weeding pilots out based on these willing to assist?

[J.O.]

Have to say that I agree with Mostly Harmless. Negativity is probably the single fastest way to pooch an interview - and it's so unnecessary when you have a strong CV that shows good experience. A common interview question asks how you've dealt with conflict in the past, and more than once I've seen an angry or spiteful response to that question be the deciding factor against someone. You don't have to be a dyed in the wool butt kisser, but you do have to be respectful.