SNOCLO [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Cough

1st Dec 2010, 07:51

Lovely...

Now, looking at the historical Edinburgh's Metars (http://www.ogimet.com/display_metars.php?lang=en&lugar=egph&tipo=ALL&ord=REV&nil=SI&fmt=html&ano=2010&mes=11&day=27&hora=08&anof=2010&mesf=12&dayf=01&horaf=08&send=send) you can see that over the last few days, nil have been released with SNOCLO, where even my early morning radio bulletin on Radio 2 has revealed the airport has been closed many times.

Looking at Gatwick's (http://www.ogimet.com/display_metars.php?lang=en&lugar=egkk&tipo=ALL&ord=REV&nil=SI&fmt=html&ano=2010&mes=11&day=30&hora=08&anof=2010&mesf=12&dayf=01&horaf=08&send=send) they do indeed include SNOCLO, so full marks to them.

Just glad I'm off recovering from an op...

Cough

1st Dec 2010, 08:14

I take it back..

This mornings EDI now includes...

SA 01/12/2010 08:50->
METAR EGPH 010850Z AUTO VRB03KT 9999NDV FZRA FEW007/// BKN010///
BKN015/// M02/M03 Q1021 SNOCLO=
SA 01/12/2010 08:20->
METAR EGPH 010820Z VRB03KT 9999 9000SE FEW007 SCT011 BKN046
M03/M04 Q1021 SNOCLO=

fisbangwollop

1st Dec 2010, 15:59

Why not call London/Scottish Information for any updates or runway states.....we are sitting listening just waiting to help!! :cool:

Mister Geezer

1st Dec 2010, 16:47

and they are friendly people too! :}

golfyankeesierra

2nd Dec 2010, 08:50

Excuse me for splitting hairs, but I always believed SNOCLO meant closed due to snowclearing.

A runway is not closed due to snow; it is unusable because braking action or contamination is out of limits, but it is not "closed". If you want to land on b/a poor, it's all yours....
The runway can be closed otoh when there is a fleet of big yellow trucks with plows on it.

Spitoon

2nd Dec 2010, 09:51

The UK rules on coding METARs says 'If the aerodrome is closed due to contamination of runways, the abbreviation SNOCLO is used in place of a runway state group'.

10W

2nd Dec 2010, 09:54

Some airport authorities seem reticent to admit they are actually closed.

ATC: Are you closed?

BAA: No, we're open.

ATC: So the runway is available?

BAA: No, it's not been cleared yet.

ATC: So you're closed then ?

BAA: No, it's just that nothing can land or depart. We're still open.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Minesthechevy

2nd Dec 2010, 09:54

<< The runway can be closed otoh when there is a fleet of big yellow trucks with plows on it.>>

Seems the phrase 'Land Over..' has gone the way of 'Land After....':E:E:E. No wonder runway utilisation isn't what it used to be.

BwatchGRUNT

2nd Dec 2010, 10:32

full marks to EGKK for being SNOCLO - how about they buy a couple of snowploughs and get their act together.

A few flakes of the white stuff and this country grinds to a halt, its embarrasing!!

Minesthechevy

2nd Dec 2010, 11:58

<<A few flakes of the white stuff and this country grinds to a halt, its embarrasing!!>>

Er....well, I'd beg to disagree; the capital investment to be geared up to have every road, side-road, alleyway, car-park, etc cleared within 6 hours would be unacceptably high. It's been - what? 36 hours? - since the real stuff fell, and unless you want to see your Council Tax doubling something has got to give.

Obviously, I'm not talking about airports now, but you DID say 'the whole country'. I remember the decision to remove the Snow Sodiums at the REAL London airport on the grounds that 'it'll never snow that much again'......

hangten

4th Dec 2010, 19:52

full marks to EGKK for being SNOCLO - how about they buy a couple of snowploughs and get their act together.

A few flakes of the white stuff and this country grinds to a halt, its embarrasing!!

I'd hardly call 150,000 tonnes of snow a few flakes, and that was of yesterday evening, with many areas still to clear. There's been a good three feet of snow in places in the south east, over a period of just two days.

Two more snow ploughs on top of the current fleet wouldn't make a great deal of difference. Gatwick has an extensive fleet of snow clearance vehicles, including sweepers, schorlings, ploughs, diggers and de-icers, not to mention the fleet of dozens (and I don't exaggerate, I suggest 50 is a conservative estimate) of contracted flat bed lorries and JCBs pulled in to move the drifts and piles which inevitably build during clearance and can impinge on the protected surfaces of the runway.

It's fun to whinge and think we know better, and that someone else is incompetent or lazy. I don't usually rise to it, but your comment is at best naive, and perhaps better described as ignorant and moronic.

A lot of people (hundreds certainly, thousands more likely) have worked incredibly hard over the past four days, not seen their families once, and put a lot of planning into action. Kudos all round for a job well done.

It's fair to say that there may be a misconception regarding the amount of snow that has fallen in Surrey, Kent and the Sussexes. I had heard one estimate from somebody who had observed both locations that Heathrow had received only approximately 10% of the snow that had fallen at Gatwick. Incredible considering the distance. 'Snow trains' was a phrase used by The Times, incredibly directed narrow weather systems, delivery the majority of the snow to relatively localised areas.

During the course of yesterday from around 18:00 to 03:00 this morning the temperature rose from -8 degrees centigrade to +4. You can check the METARs for that data. This has been an extraordinary cold snap.

As a unnecessarily childish parting shot, what's embarrassing is your inability to even spell the word. :E

Rant over.

JustaFew

4th Dec 2010, 21:26

Minesthechevy - UK airports were 'transfered' from council control sometime ago. The council tax doubling happened irrespective of local airports buying a snowplough or two :sad:...

OurSoul

5th Dec 2010, 10:30

Someone correct me if I am wrong please!!
In countries where heavy snowfall is common, it is cost effective to invest heavily in snowclearing machinery. In countries where heavy snow is experienced maybe a couple of times a year, it isn't cost effective to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on seldom used equipment.
However, some fools still thinkit should be spent. So who pays for it? Landing fees increase, ticket prices rise, passenger numbers fall and airlines reduce their fleet numbers leaving those people whining about being embarassed out of a job( but at least the runways are clear!):ugh:

rab-k

9th Dec 2010, 14:59

In fairness to EGKK, IIRC they can't use urea or similar for keeping runways clear of ice etc. due to the runoff into a watercourse in the immediate vicinity - contamination being a big 'no-no'.

Lets face it, when an airport is closed there is a fair chance the travelling public can't get either to/from the place anyway, so those inconvenienced are likely to be so whether the runway is clear or not.

http://forums.snapstream.com/vb/images/smilies/santa_smiley.gif

PS Wanna keep moving in snow? Get some decent winter rubber on your wheels! :ok:

Vlad the Impaler

18th Dec 2010, 20:18

SNOCLO has been going out on the METAR at EGLL all afternoon.

cossack

18th Dec 2010, 20:51

So much for the BAA stating LHR was "fully operational".:rolleyes:

From The Independent online:
British Airways grounded all its flights out of Heathrow until at least 5pm this afternoon, despite the airport's operator saying it is "fully operational".

A spokeswoman from the airline said: "The weather at Heathrow now is quite appalling."

"We knew that severe weather conditions were expected, so rather than asking passengers to travel down from Scotland, for example, just to have their flight cancelled, we think it's better to tell all our customers that flights are cancelled.

"We need to give our customers some certainty."

She said the airline regretted inconveniencing passengers, but insisted it was the correct decision.

"This costs British Airways a huge amount of money, so this is not a decision we take lightly," she said.

"There's a backlog from yesterday and that has an impact on today's customers.

"The main thing is we don't want customers turning up today to get stranded and not be able to get out by car or by plane. "

Winter blast brings Britain to a standstill - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/winter-blast-brings-britain-to-a-standstill-2163868.html)

Mister Geezer

18th Dec 2010, 23:13

When BA did decide to cancel their program until Saturday 1700, LHR was indeed still open at the time. BA based their decision on a forecast, rather than what was actually happening. It was a sensible decision and one that I am sure prevented many more travellers sitting in T5 and going no where tonight.

Nimmer

19th Dec 2010, 06:40

Information for all, EGKK has ordered 3 new snow ploughs!!!! Unfortunately they are stuck in France due to the bad weather, they will be here in time for the heavy snow forecast in JULY!!!!

Apart from my last sarcastic comment the above is true, you just have to laugh!!!

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

19th Dec 2010, 07:17

Here's a quote from the BBC News: "There was no more than two inches of snow and yet the runway is totally covered. Why aren't they ploughing it, why aren't they gritting it, why aren't they salting it?"

Incredible, eh? Just shows the extreme ignorance of Joe Public on such matters.

beaver liquor

19th Dec 2010, 07:48

HD, I guess if they are caught up in it it must be incredibly frustrating.

The airport would open if it could - the northern runway is clear but its dangerous ice on the aprons that is keeping it closed today. Dont expect the media to be asking fair & reasoned questions of the stranded punters!

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

19th Dec 2010, 08:17

B-L.. Agreed, but it might help if BAA explained all this in simple terms to the poor devils sleeping in the terminals. From what passengers have said on the media, they are getting virtually no information which is appalling.

changer

19th Dec 2010, 08:44

My son is stuck there, he says the place looks like a refugee camp.

He's astounded that a lousy 4 inches of snow brought that place to it's knees. I have to agree with him!

anotherthing

19th Dec 2010, 09:56

Changer,

I can understand the frustration, but it is not just a 'lousy 4 inches of snow' that have closed down the operation and if people look further afield it is not just the UK that is affected.

Germany is having problems and they have a colder winter climate than the UK, so why are they struggling? Surely they should be even better prepared than us bearing in mind their generally worse winters.

Agreed that BAA are not exactly on the ball, and that information could be better, but there are genuine reasons why EGLL are struggling.

DISCOKID

19th Dec 2010, 10:04

Yes but other many airports are coping fine with just as much snow, if not more.

Stockholm airport clears snow and reopens within 6-10 minutes.

If Heathrow wants to be one of the leading airports in the world it needs to do a much better job.

There is no excuse for a plane to land and then passengers be stuck on it for 5 hours like the virgin plane from the U.S. yesterday as BAA couldn't clear a stand for it - no wonder the americans view it as a third world airport.

anotherthing

19th Dec 2010, 10:25

Stockholm experiences a hell of a lot more snow and ice than Heathrow or any airport in the UK. They can justify the expenditure on extra equipment etc.

Just how do you propose that Heathrow clears runways and all the stands, especially when as soon as it ploughs the snow, more falls and it also freezes?

Airport snow and ice clearance is not as straightforward as it is for roads.

De-icing of airfield surfaces takes time and lasts for only a certain period before needing to be done again... it is a continous cycle until the weather improves.

We also always hear about Heathrow and Gatwick... EGLL, one of the busiest airports in the World, and Gatwick the busiest single runway airport in the World. Obviously because of these facts, any disruption is going to hit harder (not that that is any consolation for the passengers). There were plenty of other airports in the UK that were closed yesterday and are today, but other than a passing one-liner, you don't hear of them unless you are local.

There is no excuse for a plane to land and then passengers be stuck on it for 5 hours like the virgin plane from the U.S
Heathrow is an extremely busy airport that struggles daily with the number of stands available, it is a very tightly run operation in that regard and usually works under normal operations using very nimble and precise timings. BA took the decision to cancel flights early. This means that aircraft that should have vacated stands didn't, exacerbating the problem.
As for the Virgin aircraft - there were plenty of instances yesterday when crews were told they could land at various UK airports, but that they would not get a stand for some time, and may even have to park on a taxy-way. The Virgin crew might have been in this situation - in these circumstances it is the companys' decision whether to land and have the aircraft in the correct place for the next flight, accepting the delay on the gorund, or to divert and not know when the aircraft will get to re-position to EGLL (in this instance), for the next flight.

Snow closures always hit the headlines, yet UK airports suffer delays/closures from fog more often... never seems to hit the headlines in the same way though. Bearing in mind this fact, why don't airport authorities spend more money on fog dispersal initiatives? (Obviously there aren't any, but the argument is as valid as the one about airports buying the multitude of extra vehicles to keep them open in snow).

Snow will always cause disruption, yesterday was supposed to be the busiest day of the season. A lot of fights would still have been cancelled - at what point do you think it is financially viable to have a cut-off? It's all very well saying that at least some people would have got their flights... until you are one of the ones whose flight is cancelled during reduced operations.

Whatever happens, there are always going to be people unhappy. It is a lose-lose situation

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

19th Dec 2010, 11:03

Wise words anotherthing.....

changer

19th Dec 2010, 11:33

Oh please. I hear nothing but excuses. Obviously there's not enough equipment and apparently no snow plan at LHR.

OK so you don't get the winters that ORD, JFK, BOS might see, but even ATL can deal with a few inches of snow without shutting down.

from Heathrow's website... "the change in temperature overnight led to a significant build up of ice on parking stands around the planes and this requires the airfield to remain closed until it is safe to move planes around."

Ice on the ramps is no excuse. Chemically treated ramps and taxiways lowers the freezing temp of the precip so it can be easily cleared. It's how it's done in the States.

marble bar

19th Dec 2010, 12:44

So why is it we see every winter news from the states " east coast hit by snowstorms, thousands of passengers stranded " if they are so wonderful at snow clearance. Yet another example of US selective memory.

changer

19th Dec 2010, 12:59

We're talking about a couple inches of snow here. Not a couple feet of snow.

Name one occasion where a couple inches of snow stranded thousands of passengers at any major US airport.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

19th Dec 2010, 13:14

forget

19th Dec 2010, 13:17

How to do it.

Snow plans. Snow and ice should be removed as soon as possible during or after a weather event. To facilitate this, every airport should have a current “snow plan” that describes in detail snow and ice control and removal operations. A snow plan should be concise, accurate, practical, and specific to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)/Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) circular under which an airport operates. A snow plan is required for all FAR 139 certificated airports, and it must be submitted to the FAA for approval. FAA Advisory Circular 150/5200 provides a guide for creating a snow plan and suggests a list of items to include.

.......... the snow removal plan at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport(MSP) requires runways to be cleared within 30 minutes of closing.

http://www.airtap.umn.edu/Publications/WorkshopSummaries/documents/SnowIceControl.pdf

arearadar

19th Dec 2010, 13:28

Speaking as an Atco; Yes we are closed, meaning poor braking action etc and yellow things on the runway.

BAA says we are open, meaning the duty free/tax free shops are open and making a mint from trapped SLF.

Simples !!!

Dave

BEXIL160

19th Dec 2010, 13:33

Which is all very well for airports in the North of the USA, or indeed anywhere that regularly has winter snowfall.

For the rest of the world where it is warmer and snowfall is a much rarer event, as has been stated, there is little motivation (or need?) to invest in expensive equipment that will spend most of it's life idle.

This applies equally to the southernUSA, where a "few inches" of snow managed to cause chaos.... just like here in the balmy UK.

Airlines Cancel Flights as Winter Storm Hits South - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9818790&page=1)

BEX.

P.S. Apart from Ash Clouds, I can't remember EGLL being shut for such an extended period. When was the last "all day" closure. Anyone? Bren?

trafficnotsighted

19th Dec 2010, 13:39

Changer -I do recall John Candy and Steve Martin being stranded due to the snow.;)

Gonzo

19th Dec 2010, 14:00

Forget,

London Heathrow
Ave. High (Degrees C): Nov 10.9, Dec 8.8, Jan 7.9, Feb 8.2
Ave. Low: Nov 4.8, Dec 3.3, Jan 2.4, Feb 2.2
Average number of days per year where snowfall > 0.1in: 4 (seems high to me, apart from the last two years).

Minneapolis-St. Paul
Ave. High (Degrees C): Nov 4.5, Dec -3.1, Jan -5.6, Feb -2
Ave. Low: Nov -4, Dec -11.7, Jan -15.4, Feb -11.2
Average number of days per year where snowfall > 0.1in: 40

Slight difference in climate and risk exposure there.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

19th Dec 2010, 14:34

BEX.. Not in all the years I was involved with the place. I recall a handful or less days when snow was bad enough for us to worry if the oncoming watch would arrive...... but the aircraft were still flying! I think you'd have to go back to the days in the 60s of smog and prior to autoland...

forget

19th Dec 2010, 15:11

Slight difference in climate and risk exposure there.

Gonzo, appreciate that, I've been caught in a once every ten year blizzard at MSP and the snow clearing expertise was a sight to behold. Quite an experience! I wouldn't expect UK airports to equip to the same level. However, ....

A snow plan is required for all FAR 139 certificated airports, and it must be submitted to the FAA for approval.

Does the CAA require similar?

Gonzo

19th Dec 2010, 16:14

Yes it does.

CAP168 Appendix 3D

BEXIL160

19th Dec 2010, 17:20

Thanks Bren,

So, as far as anyone can remember then (well, me and HD), EGLL hasn't been closed for an extended period since the Pea Souper days prior to CAT3

This would suggest that the current circumstances are somewhat rare and unusual.... at last at Heathrow.

BEX

tired

19th Dec 2010, 19:01

The last significant amount of snow at LHR fell yesterday afternoon, 18 December. The airport at this moment is only allowing limited departures and not accepting arrivals at all. It will not be fully operational until tomorrow morning, 20 December. That's 36 hours to deal with 3 inches of snow and to de-ice the ramps. Certainly there was more snow than usual, but it was hardly the Apocalypse, and icy ramps occur in London every winter. If the BAA was an airport operator then 'Third World response' would be a fair description, but as it's actually a retailer which has to suffer the inconvenience of operating an airport as a sideline then I guess it's response has been fairly good.

MAT4134

19th Dec 2010, 21:14

The EGHH METAR used the SNOCLO abbreviation on Saturday.

bit late but nevertheless

:ok:

mat4134

off watch

19th Dec 2010, 21:18

anotherthing, you said "Heathrow is an extremely busy airport that struggles daily with the number of stands available, it is a very tightly run operation in that regard and usually works under normal operations using very nimble and precise timings. BA took the decision to cancel flights early. This means that aircraft that should have vacated stands didn't, exacerbating the problem."
So why didn't the BAA tell them to get their aircraft off the stands to remote parking, or hit them with financial penalties ? Makes me wonder who runs the airport sometimes :-(

Married a Canadian

19th Dec 2010, 22:24

Changer... My wife and I flew from O'Hare to St Louis once. Taxying out we were told there was a "one hour ground stop due to thunderstorms"!!!!!!! We duly sat there for an hour... OK, you people might be good with snow but we beat the pants off you with thunderstorms

Errmmm you don't stop for thunderstorms at Heathrow?? Must be fairly wussy storms then...I didn't think you were allowed to fuel an aircraft on the ramp if there was lightning around? Ground stops occur here for that very reason...plus a lot of the airlines don't seem to want to fly through them.

As for the snow in the UK. Whilst I sympathise (having worked there)...there will come a point where the " it hardly ever happens so why invest the money" line will seem strange if it happens every year. So far it is 3 and counting.
And yes I accept that Heathrow is a complex operation with a lot of carriers..and the argument I put to my YYZ colleagues is where exactly they can put the snow (not a lot of room around the airport). However in area size to a lot of US airports it is not THAT big...so deicing should not be as complicated as made out to be.

It all comes down to planning...and it does seem the BAA seems to be rather lacking in that department. I try not to be too rude knowing the complexity of the operation...but when you work at a North American airport that has a laid out plan and acts to it.....it does beg the question of what the European hubs base their snow clearing model on?....cos it ain't working.

M609

19th Dec 2010, 23:46

where exactly they can put the snow

I´m sorry, but a quick look at Google maps shows plenty of areas to get rid of snow from the RWY and TWYs. You need a hell of a lot more than 3-4 inches to get into problems with critical snow banks.

Aprons? Well, even airports that work well in proper winter conditions need to truck snow off site at some point. I all boils down to training and procedues within airfield ops. In short term, using a couple of 100 meters of TWY as storage is easy. (Remove later when things quiet down some)

I know it´s not common with this much snow in the south of the UK, but working approach for an airport that uses 12-15 minutes to close-sweep-remove banks with blowers-clear exits-lay chemicals or sand-run friction test on 3500 meters of RWY.......

......it messes with my mind to hear about hours and days of problems.

A team from Gatwick visited Oslo last year to learn. Perhaps they should let a couple of guys stay for one whole winter......to learn.

Quick google gave the Heathrow Snow Plan

http://www.baa.com/assets/Internet/Heathrow_Airside_and_Baggage/Downloads/PDFs/Aerodrome_Snow_Plan_2010_2011.pdf

It lists the clearence equipment, and with some more google to find some details on them...

Oh dear.....not much to work with. ;) ;)

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

20th Dec 2010, 07:13

<<Errmmm you don't stop for thunderstorms at Heathrow?? Must be fairly wussy storms then...I didn't think you were allowed to fuel an aircraft on the ramp if there was lightning around? Ground stops occur here for that very reason...plus a lot of the airlines don't seem to want to fly through them.>>

I was a controller dealing with Heathrow traffic for 31 years and recall very few times times when landings or take-offs stopped for more than a few minutes when there was a storm overhead. When the storm is close by, aircraft fly round it or the departure route is varied. I don't know about the refuelling restrictions; they may well exist. If we shut major airfields over here every time there was a Cb around it would be more chaotic than when we have snow!!

5milesbaby

20th Dec 2010, 08:05

The main problem at Heathrow is the ice. As, during the day, the temperatures have been getting into very low pluses, some of the snow that fell melted and then froze again before it dispersed. This has frozen many aircraft to their stands. De-icer doesn't work very well in these circumstances.

M609

20th Dec 2010, 09:23

As, during the day, the temperatures have been getting into very low pluses, some of the snow that fell melted and then froze again before it dispersed.

That is a snow clearence problem, to not get the snow out of the way in the first place. Secondly a de-icer problem, for not laying down enough precautionary agent in advance to prevent it from sticking.

And FYI: When it´s too cold for Aviform/Safeway/Urea: Sand!

Shock-horror- etc etc Sand at an airport? Well yes, and it´s no major problem/disaster!

There are even gritters that can coat the sand with water steam as it exits the hopper onto the disperser rotors, making the sand freeze to the surface on contact. Lasts for days.

throw a dyce

20th Dec 2010, 09:26

I saw a news feature on Helsinki airport and how they did their snowclearing.Their apron team was larger than most UK airports entire operations.They thought that the UK was like Finland in the 50's,slip sliding away.

BBK

20th Dec 2010, 19:10

Does anyone have a link that gives up to date info on airfield movements especially at London.

The BA website used to give a breakdown of dep/arr over a given hour but now that is not the case.

Also, has the snow been that bad in the UK?

I'm abroad so can't tell other than a photo of a mate's back garden!

throw a dyce

21st Dec 2010, 07:38

What's the problem with LL south runway? Has the snow turned to concrete?Icing on the cake if it has,because you'll have to wait for a thaw now.:uhoh:

Numpo-Nigit

21st Dec 2010, 07:48

Just to jump back a few posts, and move slightly off-topic ...

> EGLL hasn't been closed for an extended period since
> the Pea Souper days prior to CAT3

Did Heathrow actually CLOSE during those periods, or was it still open but nobody could use it due to the visibility?

NN

HeliAl

21st Dec 2010, 09:03

A good contact inside the fence has suggested that the problem with the runway clearance is the cost of anti ice as they managed to misuse over 500,000ltrs of the stuff first time round and it cost approx £5 per litre.

The snow plan was taken as ''just clear the bugger'' and we will sort it out later this is a one off event.

Majority of the snow ploughs also needed a service and repair after the first event due to a reduction in the training of the operators to save cost. And not listening to the experienced employees.

Run by Managers or accountants!!!!

Or I'm I just being cynical.:hmm:

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

21st Dec 2010, 10:14

Numpo-nigit. Heathrow was never closed because of fog. The airfield was always available.

Moldiold2

21st Dec 2010, 11:07

HeliA1 - agree. I was around in winter of '63 when snow lay for 3 months and there was no travel chaos then - I used public transport every day and remember LL staying open (and Northolt). OK LL did not have so many movements but it also only had 3 terminals and associated ramps.

anotherthing

21st Dec 2010, 11:58

OK LL did not have so many movements but it also only had 3 terminals and associated ramps.
Kind of explaining yourself why your argument is moot. Heathrow this year has suffered snow and abnormally cold weather. They have more movements than when you describe, and more infrastructure to clear. They are running a limited operation... probably about the same level as the days of yore that you are talking about...

If the last really bad weather you can think of was 1963, do you honestly believe that it is financially prudent to have the level of snow clearance abilities that you and others seem to think we should have? Stuff just sitting round for 40-50 years in the chance of a very severe winter?

I can guarantee that airports will have weather disruption written into their business plan, and will allow for a certain amount each year as being
commercially acceptable versus cost of having extra equipment. This year had been an exception weather-wise.

I'm no fan of BAA, far from it. In general airfield operators have dicked about this year and caused havoc which ATC then has to deal with (my opinion) - but poor management/lack of willingness to make a decision aside, they (airfield operators) are having to deal with extraordinary (UK talking) weather.

Interesting to see on BBC website that as well as bashing the UK, you can, if you can be bothered to look, find more balanced reporting where it states other countries are struggling as well...

Also, BBC News yesterday tried to find stranded foreign interviewees who would condemn the UK... the majority stated that it was to be expected due to the severe weather and that their countries are the same. Cue one disgruntled BBC reporter

Piltdown Man

21st Dec 2010, 12:06

Let's say we spend a fortune on snow clearance equipment and chemicals - think of it as like paying buildings and contents insurance for your house. You hope you never use it. But, say we did spend the money, did the training and got ourselves up to the standard of the Scandinavians (and even got to point where a braking action is given as part of a METAR instead of an excuse?), would be of any use if the passengers/cargo couldn't get to and from the airport? Heathrow is a pain in the bum to get to at the best of times, let alone in snow. Personally, I think they have done a pretty good job with what little they have, as have Gatwick. The only real solution, as ever, is to look at the whole transport system and decide what needs to work and under what conditions. Someone has to decide if we need bread and milk in shops or is it more important to have airports open so we can fly to Disneyland. Once we have taken that decision, we can then equip and train (or not) to provide the level of service for the prevailing conditions.

PM

M609

21st Dec 2010, 18:56

From SAS Face-book page

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs715.snc4/63569_481654892449_508182449_5620041_4945659_n.jpg

Edit: Discovered the pic was posted by a SAS fan, not SAS :)

Moldiold2

22nd Dec 2010, 09:21

In response to Anotherthing - 1963 is not the last time I can recall severe - as you put it - weather. I seem to remember some snow earlier this year and worse conditions in winters before that. The point I am making that it has taken over four days to get our premier airport back to something approaching normal operations when only 10 cm of snow fell. All the management seem capable of is repeating the phrase 'lessons will be learnt'. Is that a euphemism for 'the board will see how it can ensure it keeps its bonus payments safe under these performance figures? I now understand that BAA informed BA that the southern runway would not be serviceable until Thursday at the earliest. Acting on that BA organised its schedules accordingly. So when BAA opened the runway yesterday BA were more than a little lacking in gruntle. I think this speaks volumes for the lack of practical experience there is at senior level at BAA. I hope the airlines sue them and get suitable recompense for loss of revenue and expenses then maybe the board will see what the true cost of lack of investment is. I agree with the comment - look on investment as insurance policy. Dont forget that the ones who suffered most are the poor travellers trapped in terminals with no information. How many were foreign company executives and visitors who will see this as an advert for our country and go elsewhere next time? nextw