Scottish TMA, TMZ?

[bad bear]

It has been suggested that the Scottish TMA is transponder mandatory. Could anyone post a link to the ACP that dealt with this change? Does it apply to flex wings and sailplanes?
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[Roffa]

See GEN 1-5-14 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-59BB90DE4CC6D6B74489B2C5BE4FA0A5/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/GEN/EG_GEN_1_5_en_2010-05-06.pdf)

[bad bear]

Thanks for the link, glad to see that gliders and motor gliders are still exempt

5.3.4 Exceptions
5.3.4.1 The requirements at sub-paragraphs 5.3.1 (c) to 5.3.1 (f) shall not apply to:
a. Gliders, including self-sustaining gliders and self-propelled hang gliders, and self-lauching motor gliders except;
i. Where operating above FL 195 outside of airspace notified as TRA(G), or
ii. Where operating in a TMZ established by Statutory Instrument which specifies otherwise.

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[10W]

Only exempt till 2012 according to the UK AIP :ok:

[NorthSouth]

10W: how often do gliders fly in the Scottish TMA anyway (legally I mean - with clearance)?
NS

[bad bear]

how often do gliders fly in the Scottish TMA anyway (legally I mean - with clearance)?

With the high quality moving maps that glider pilots have been using it is unlikely that gliders have infringed this bit of sky. With clearance also not often as even gliders with transponders have been turned away more often than not, thus the reluctance to accept more controlled airspace or TMZs in this area.


10W thanks for the info.
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[10W]

10W: how often do gliders fly in the Scottish TMA anyway (legally I mean - with clearance)?


Not very often. There are access agreements for the Airway and TMA structures North of Edinburgh, so probably little need to come South from Portmoak or Aboyne when you have the whole of the rest of Scotland to play with :cool:

With clearance also not often as even gliders with transponders have been turned away more often than not, thus the reluctance to accept more controlled airspace or TMZs in this area.


The CAA will presumably hold the refusals on file, as the pilot is supposed to report non clearance in to Class D, which would include parts of the TMA. Must ask them for the figures :ok:

[rolaaand]

I have never had a glider call me for a clearance into the Scottish TMA and I've worked the airspace for eight years. I realise we are all meant to be about airspace sharing these days but I would point blank refuse entry to any non transponder equipped aircraft,glider or otherwise,except in the case of an in flight transponder failure. There are areas where primary contacts are suppressed due to windfarm clutter, and in any case a very slow moving primary contact may will be filtered out by the equipment we use.
If your glider has a transponder, I wouldn't necessarily deny an entry into the TMA. The traffic situation would have to be exceptionally quiet and I would have to set out a strict lateral and vertical portion of airspace for you to operate in. I certainly wouldn't deny you entry without a valid reason.
Don't be surprised if some of the controllers at Scottish are not the most co-operative when it comes to gliders though.It is a source of great annoyance for controllers that a gliding club can close an airway. I remember several shifts during the summer where Portmoak and Aboyne were active, which caused major headaches on the sector. I would love to see P18 made a permanent airway and P600 realigned so that both Portmoak and Aboyne can have access to the airspace they want, and traffic can use the airways without restriction.

[NorthSouth]

rolaaand:There are areas where primary contacts are suppressed due to windfarm clutterI thought that was what the TMZs at Whitelee and Clyde were for. Do you do it in other places without a TMZ too?
NS

[bad bear]

rolaaand, good to chat here and exchange views. I seen to remember that there are rules for class "D" airspace. IFR separated from IFR and something about traffic info on VFR and something about avoiding heading on request? Now there is duty of care too, but., class "D" is just that.. class "D". Imaging you are on duty and I call from over head Carlisle,in a 15m glider, squaking 7000 and request transit through the TALLA overhead routing 15nm west of Edinburgh not above FL85 towards Stirling. Assuming a south west wind, would you give me a clearance? feel free to pm me rather than thread drift

I would love to see P18 made a permanent airway and P600 realigned so that both Portmoak and Aboyne can have access to the airspace they want, and traffic can use the airways without restriction.

on the basis of the above quote we could be best drinking buddies. The BGA have been begging for this to be done for years and been knocked back every time.

Many more calls can be expected requesting entry to the TMA next year but mainly from the new club at Edensoaring (Penrith, or MARGO to our controller friends)

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[rolaaand]

NorthSouth-No we don't,I'm guilty of replying having only read the thread title and not the content,my bad.

badbear-i don't mind thread drift,it's your thread:ok:
You know the rules for class D,which means you also know that a clearance is required to enter.In the scenario you describe the chances of you getting a clearance would be pretty much zero. Just because the rule book says that you are able to fly a glider through a class D tma doesn't mean it's a clever idea! My duty of care has to cover the fact that not all of the pilots that fly in the tma know that it is class D and not all of them would be aware that I would not be seperating them from vfr traffic.
My immediate thoughts are that you would affect the bottom three levels of the tweed hold and all 24 departures from edinburgh then the bottom three levels of the stira hold. The 24 climbout would be a tricky area to cross as it lies within the confines of the Galloway sector,however departures also get transferred to Talla and Tay sectors depending on the SID. Lots of co-ordination required and a huge increase in workload in an already busy sector.
If I did approve our request and there was a subsequent incident, I'm fairly certain that my judgement would be called into question for allowing a glider to cross a busy tma.
Feel free to pm me if you feel the thread is drifting a bit too far off topic:ok:

[bad bear]

rolaaand, ok I'm happy to continue, there will be other interesting views added, I'm sure.

Have you plotted the track on a 1:500,000 chart with airspace and EDI arrivals and departures plotted on it? I think my suggested route is clear of EDI arrivals from the south and also clear of the LANAK hold, although the hold is not often used except for bad weather and I am unlikely to be gliding if its that bad. The descent profile should have all the EDI arrivals and most GLA well above.
What height would an EDI outbound be at 15 nm? Please have a look when your on shift next and report back.

I dont know how much training controllers get in dealing with gliders, did you get much info on how they operate and what to expect?

I think your point below is valid, but why should glider pilots and VFR trafic have to suffer because of other pilot's ignorance? DAP should ensure that all airspace users know and respect the rules, shouldn't they? In my example the glider would have a transponder and the big aeroplane ACAS

not all of the pilots that fly in the tma know that it is class D and not all of them would be aware that I would not be seperating them from vfr traffic.



How about I throw the original question back to you and ask where you would offer a transit from south to north and return ?

Glider pilots are repeatedly told that all they have to do is fit a transponder and the world will open up for them, but, if I would be refused a transit even with one why should I spend £2,250 to fit one and £150 each year maintaining it if I still cannot transit CAS?

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