Difference between "seriously tired" and fatigued?

[lowcostdolly]

A CC colleague and friend has just finished a season with a UK registered charter carrier. This carrier operates to SSH/LXR in one day.

On one flight both the flight crew and some CC completed fatigue forms on the outbound sector but the flight continued to operate this sector and the inbound SSH - UK with apparently fatigued flight and cabin crew operating.

The matter was reported to CC line management who investigated the incident.

Without going into too much detail here the crew were not considered fatigued despite filling in forms to this effect. The company's written response says they were not "seriously tired" until "well into the inbound sector". Apparently that is what the submitted forms indicated when investigated. Also this company considers this a "natural occurence" on these flights.

I'm flying to SSH in a couple of weeks on holiday although not with this particular carrier.....thankfully!! On return to the UK I would really like to feel I do not have a "seriously tired" pilot landing the wide bodied jet I'm travelling on. This is not the only company that operates these duties as there and backs.

We all know fatigue is recognised as a safety issue and it's active at present in the air india thread in rumours and news.

What is officially considered "serious" tiredness in pilots and CC as opposed to fatigue?

[BOAC]

What is officially considered "serious" tiredness in pilots and CC as opposed to fatigue? - I posted on this on the Mangalore thread in R&N.

It is very easy for people to become confused about 'serious tiredness' and 'fatigue'.

Tiredness is a state to be expected following or during a hard 'duty'. SSH/LXR is just that sort of duty. Crews are expected to be sufficiently rested before duty to allow working to the full FTL limit and allowing for discretionary extension. Yes, they will be 'tired'.

Fatigue is a medical condition brought about by repeated and constant exposure to disruptive sleep patterns or disruptive social, medical or family events - real on-going difficulty in achieving adequate pre-flight rest is one example. This crew may well have been 'fatigued' but were they just tired? A succession of night duties followed by a run of days followed by a run of nights etc etc can, of course, cause 'fatigue' as can repeated time-zone shifts. Under the ANO it is NOT acceptable for crew to operate while 'fatigued' but quite acceptable (and expected) for them to operate when reasonably 'tired'. If genuinely 'fatigued' there are identifiable medical symptoms which can be recognised by a GP. A 'fatigued' crew member SHOULD report sick and be checked.

I'm afraid you will almost certainly have a 'tired' crew on your flight - that is the way it works, unless you fly with a 'premier' carrier that does not do those out-and-backs like that.:{ Even then, if the crew have been out shopping/sight-seeing that day before flying......................................

[Admiral346]

You may want to check medical dictionaries. They do classify fatigue as connected to various illnesses mostly.
But you can also find a lot on driving and flying related issues.

Leaving very early and having to do a 12 hour day will make you tired, very tired. In my case, it will make me fatigued, too. It is very much against my natural rythm, and during a 5 day schedule of "early shift", my sleeping pattern changes to sleeping 3 hours in the afternoon and another 3 from about 12.30am to 4am or whenever I have to get up.
However, I personally am not that affected by a late rythm, say start duty at 1pm and work till midnight. Or the ones where you fly through the night, just like the schedule on which the Mangalore crash happened. Lots of my collegues hate that kind of duty, though.
I am simply very tired in the morning, but far from fatigued.

The simple trick would be to let pilots put in a preference with the crew scheduling department (they do at my company) and plan accordingly (they sure don't at my company). Finacial interest has made them decrease the number of employees there, and now they just have the time to get the rosters out, there is no capacity to look at the indivdual.

So I do believe my schedule could be much more suited to my sleep, as weired as that my sound to a non aviation person. Also a lot of social problems (single moms working as flight attendents) could be avoided, but that would mean more cost/less profit by hiring another planner.

But I believe in realizing your weakness (getting up early in my case), and acting accordingly let's one reduce the impact on flight safety, and a pilot caught snoring on the CVR (as spoken of at the Mangalore thread) is not necessarily a bad one...

Nic

[lowcostdolly]

Thank you Guys for your replies :ok:

From what I understand (being very recently crew) all crew have to feel fully fit to operate the duty + discretion and BOAC has just confirmed that.

I also thourght (maybe wrong) fatigue had to be declared within 2 hours and after a rest period to crewing.....I don't know if this was done.

From what I understand on this particular flight the inability to operate discretion was declared prior to departure from the UK by the Captain who subsequently filed a fatigue report himself and made this option available to the crew.

All of the senior cabin crew filed fatigue reports. The rest of the CC on this flight were young inexperienced seasonal temps.

I've seen the company response to this issue issued by a CC manager on company headed notepaper. Apparently nobody was actually "fatigued" only "seriously tired" on this flight on the latter stages of the inbound sector.

I know what it is like, as CC, to be tired at the end of a long duty period and this is compounded if crew are on day 5/6/7/ of their roster. If I'm tired my people skills are compromised with both pax and crew.

I've been "seriously tired" on two occasions I can recall in all the years I've been flying. On one occasion I nearly blew a slide and on the other I put the oven on with paper attached to the inside/outside of the door and when I smelt burning............:eek:

On both occasions I was maxed out on my roster but still within CAA/company parameters. None of this was life threatening however.

If a pilot is considered "seriously tired" on approach to landing how does this affect them?

[BOAC]

LCD - a good question and one which the fare-paying public should be aware of. The limits on FDP and duty have been laid down by authorities and are judged to be safe. I don't know the answer to your question "If a pilot is considered "seriously tired" on approach to landing how does this affect them?" It is quite subjective and generally it is judged that the 'adrenalin rush' of an emergency or the coming landing will overcome tiredness.

I would say, however, that it would be a strange event if several crew all felt they were 'fatigued' at the same time. Tired yes, and 'seriously tired' (define?) possibly. Any crew member who suspects they may be suffering from fatigue must not fly and should report sick - it is the law. If they are so tired that they consider their ability to operate is seriously impaired they should also decline duty - it is common-sense. There is nothing in the ANO that says you cannot operate if you are tired but you must be FIT to operate.

Refusal to operate into discretion is the right of the Captain and the Captain alone. Individual crew members can declare themselves unfit to extend their duty, but I'm sure any company might wish to study pre-flight rest activities and life-style etc in that event, and that may not be a good thing!

I don't know about "fatigue had to be declared within 2 hours and after a rest period to crewing" - sounds like a company edict? I do know that fatigue should be declared to a doctor as soon as it is suspected. The symptoms of fatigue are quite different to those of tiredness. I suspect that if a 'normal' airline roster (as is!) is causing fatigue to a crew member they may be advised to look at a change of occupation.

It sounds as if the Captain may well have been unfit to operate at all and should, in accordance with the ANO, have removed himself from duty. The judgement on discretion needs to be made at the time it is required. If that is before departure, I know that declaring oneself 'unfit' to operate into discretion before it happens is fraught with career-threatening danger! Having been in the 'tired' zone quite a few times myself there are things like controlled in-flight rest, high-speed cruise, no turn-round cleaning etc that can be used to help, and I have on occasion advised ops that my discretionary extension might not be relied on, but I have never declared it to be 'impossible' before departure - as long as it is within the legal limits, of course.

Being "maxed out on my roster" is subjective - it depends on your personal fitness and how you plan your life. It is becoming very common now to work crews to the absolute limit of duty and rostering, despite the 'guidance' given by the authorities on this. If the company is constantly 'abusing' the intent of the scheme, you may wish to consider copying your roster to the authority (preferably via your union, if you have one!). Folk need to know that being airline crew will probably not be a glamorous bed of roses.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Dolly
Knackered might be a better word than seriously tired. I'm surprised that a crew could be rostered a SSH-LXR in the same duty i must be getting old like BOAC. Fatigue will occur after a long summer perhaps not on just 1 flight. In theory CAP371 allows you to work hard during 7 days but if you do the 14 limits might counter it.
There's no doubt it was a long duty day and whilst the Commander may have said "no discretion" he's on slightly dodgy ground as BOAC states (although i offer every sympathy as he was probably trying to get the point over the duty was too long). It's one of those crew vv $$ for a crew change arguements, i'd take a bet BA would be changing crews,maybe :\

[TheChitterneFlyer]

There are many definitions of being "tired/fatigued", however, the non-aircrew public might not appreciate the subtle differences.

Some years ago I used to fly regular UK-LXR-UK charter operations; also, MAN-DLM-MAN and, MAN-TFS-MAN; all of which were pretty gruelling experiences and not well-liked by both CC and FD crew. They were quite tiring nights out of bed but that I'd never say that I was "fatigued" by the experience.

Some years later when I was flying cargo for airline XYZ I did experience the "fatigue" factor. Crew Scheduling thought that they were being kind in providing 24-hours rest between work patterns; hence, it became a mix of both night and day sectors with 24-hours-off in-between. I went beyond the stage of being tired and irritable... I was falling asleep during the final approach path back into base!

Picture this if you will... make an early start (0400L) and fly a fouteen-hour duty (two-sectors); back home by 1830L; have a couple of beers with friends and then go to bed at 2200L (tired); take ten-hours sleep (awake at 0800L); report for duty at 1800L. I then fly a twelve-hour out and return duty (two-sectors); back into base at 0600L; home by 0630L (very tired); sleep for ten-hours (awake at 1630L). My next report time is at 0600L; however, having awoken from sleep at 1630L I'm now not really tired until very late that same night; hence, you try and sleep; except that it doesn't come easy... the process continues. It's now when "fatigue" sets-in; the process is cumulative.

Given that friends and colleagues were commenting upon how irritable I was becoming, and, couple that with the falling asleep syndrome on final approach, I made the decision to go sick and see my doctor. He diagnosed that I was fatigued and that he was concerned that I was becoming clinicly depressed; he signed-me-off for two-weeks sick leave. My Company wasn't impressed and asked for a second-oppinion... provided by a Senior CAA Medical Officer (it was, in fact, the head of that particular country's CAA Medical Organisation). He interviewed me for thirty-minutes and said, "Mr TheChitterneFlyer, I cannot reccommend two-weeks sick leave; I'm signing you off for six months"!

The "Corporate machine" went into full swing and stated that I couldn't leave the country whilst on sick-leave (which was reccommended by my AME). The said CAA man tidy'd the loose ends and I ended-up on the next schduled flight to the UK... twelve hours later; home and dry, but knackered!

Three months later I considdered myself fit for duty (and medically assessed as being fit) and eventually returned to country XYZ. I was now tainted as being a trouble maker; six months later, I resigned... it was starting to happen all over again!

"Fatigue" creeps up on you when you least expect it to; remember, it's a cummulative process; that's the difference to being "very tired"!

Despite all of the corporate paperwork that's required of you to "fill-in" when you're feeling "fatigued"... make sure that you have accurately documented all of your previous duties; you'll otherwise get "screwed" if you haven't exceeded your "agreed" flight time limitations schedule. The "wording" of those FTL documents are extremely vague; including such words as "should"! Airline XYZ "should" not schedule rest periods between 18 and 30 hours rest... your corporate machine will play on those words "should not"... they'll say, on this occasion, it wasn't avoidable!

Be carefull out there; particularly in foreign parts!

TCF

[lowcostdolly]

Thank you guys again for you replies as I know little about the regs on crew fatigue generally....I just know how I felt affected when I operated as CC......tired/seriously tired/fatigued on day 5/6/7 :confused:

I'm sure any company would have it's own take as highlighted in this thread....:hmm:

I think BOAC is right here......in this particular incident the Captain should not have operated if he couldn't manage the duty period + any discretion.

This was flagged up by the CC member reporting the incident and it appears buried in the subsequent investigation by CC management.

This particular CC management (a newly promoted performance manager in fact) apparently interviewed the Captain as part of a formal investigation.....this is in the company response which I have seen. Why would CC management be doing this?

Is this not the remit of the Base Captain at least to interview a Captain regarding his operation of a flight?

"Career threatening danger" for highlighting a safety issue:eek:......I guess as my friend has not had her temp contract renewed (no sickness/no shows and many assesments stating she meets/exceeds company CC standards) for highlighting this issue that is a real possibilty for all grades of crew :(

I hope when I fly to SSH and back to LGW my "seriously" but apparently "naturally" tired Pilot is not relying on adrenaline to land my plane.....even adrenaline has limitations.

[BOAC]

lcd - please note my comment about "Career threatening danger" was specifically "I know that declaring oneself 'unfit' to operate into discretion before it happens is fraught with career-threatening danger!" - not about "highlighting a safety issue" - 'refusing' discretion is not a safety issue. Certainly the "Captain should not have operated if he couldn't manage the duty" - not being 'fit' for discretion should be judged at the time it is required and can always be refused. It is not mandatory, although some managers seem to think otherwise.

Sorry to hear about your 'friend'.

[VinRouge]

2 useful documents:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAAPaper2005_04.pdf

http://www.fatiguescience.com/assets/pdf/Alcohol-Fatigue.pdf

Second one in particular.

22 hours of "wakefulness" puts you past the equivalent UK drink drive limit.

just because you are "Knackered" and not "Fatigued" does not mean you will not make serious flight safety critical mistakes.

How many on here crew in at 2200-0100 and havent managed to sleep prior to reporting for duty? WHats that, 14 hours awake already? Add the 14 hours you will be at work for and all of a sudden, you are in quite a dangerous place.

The CAA pdf has some details of QinetiQ wakefulness model which is again useful to look at. Pages 13-14 refer.

As an aside, how many companies here permit single pilot flightdeck ops in the cruise in the case of extreme tiredness? The caa report identifies rest on a bunk provides a much better solution than sleep in the seat...

[larssnowpharter]

When you are feeling kernackered and are walking along and see a $10 bill in front of you:

1. If you pick it up, you are tired.

2. If you really cannot be bothered, you are fatigued.