F-22 Raptor missing in Alaska - search underway . . .

[bizjets101]

F-22 aircraft overdue in reporting (http://www.jber.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123231162)

An Air Force F-22 assigned to the 3rd Wing at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, lost contact with air traffic control at 7:40 p.m. Alaska time today while on a routine training mission.

Search under way.

[bizjets101]

Search on for F-22 missing over Alaska - U.S. news - Security - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40231873/ns/us_news-security/)

[fallmonk]

Hope the pilot is found safe and well soon .

[Robert Cooper]

Hope the pilot is safe. Alaska is very unforgiving in November

[Grimweasel]

Was there not a Russian chap in the 70s who flew a Mig-25 into NATO/US hands? Just imagine the reverse has happened here? Alaska is quite close to Russia after all...Imagine our dear friends in Russia or China getting a 'defecting' F-22? - Air Dominance would be challenged in a matter of 5 years....I do hope the pilot is OK tho.

[High_Expect]

Shut up Grim. 99.9% chance is the guy is either injured or worse. Please keep your far-fetched derogatory comments to yourself. Here's hoping the guy is found safe. Jets can be replaced, even if they do cost 1/2billion $.

[Squirrel 41]

Grim - ar$ehole.

Good luck to the driver - it's bl**dy chilly out in rural AK at this time of year.

S41

[poina]

We won't be able to replace any in another year when the economy really blows up. We're broke!

[GarageYears]

F-22 production line is closed and no further aircraft will be produced. The F-22 program was canceled in July 2009, with production standing at 187 aircraft.

Unit cost was variously reported at between $150million to $361million - just a little short of the $1-2billion alluded to above... :eek:

Seems likely this is a sad loss - at time of writing no sign of aircraft or pilot and suggestions from the Pentagon that the aircraft was lost in the Alaskan wilderness.

- GY

[ORAC]

F-22 production line is closed and no further aircraft will be produced. :cool::cool:

Air Force Magazine: It’s Okay to Talk Raptor Again (http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Features/modernization/Pages/box111610raptor.aspx)

Nov. 16, 2010—The Air Force has apparently gotten over one of its biggest taboos: talking internally about the possibility of buying more F-22s.

Until recently, USAF was under strict orders not even to think about it, but recent developments have caused the possibility to crop up in some "what if" PowerPoint slides.

Those developments include likely further slips in the F-35 strike fighter's schedule and an upcoming defense acquisition board review of the F-35 expected to be fraught with bad news on cost.

That would come on the heels of various deficit-cutting proposals that already suggest cutting the F-35 buy. Without F-35, Air Force fighter inventories will plummet below minimums in coming years as F-16s age out.

Extending F-22 production could be the dealmaker if F-35 foes carry the day and compel USAF to take mostly new-build F-16s instead. The Raptors would provide the extra stealth force required to make the non-stealthy F-16s acceptable.

Also, if you’ve listened carefully, USAF has gone from saying it will retain a "portion" of F-22 production tooling to "most" and, most recently, to "all."

Gen. William Fraser, head of Air Combat Command, acknowledged last week that Lockheed Martin is filming all F-22 tooling processes as the earliest parts of production shut down, so that it can go back to production of parts—ostensibly for repairs or service life extension—in the future.

Also last week, Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-Ga.) said he might spearhead an effort to get more F-22s into the budget. But he acknowledged it could be a difficult task given pressures to rein in spending. Gingrey complained bitterly that the Pentagon prematurely terminated F-22 production, centered in Marietta in his Congressional district, before Russia rolled out its own F-22 clone, the PAK FA, last year.

[TheWizard]

Searchers find wreck believed to be F-22: Military | adn.com (http://www.adn.com/2010/11/17/1559051/search-continues-for-elmendorf.html)
Not looking good for the pilot. I hope I am wrong though.

[Willard Whyte]

Unit cost was variously reported at between $150million to $361million - just a little short of the $1-2billion alluded to aboveThey still teach fractions at my son's school.

Nothing of the sort was alluded to. Read again and come back with what was written.

A, if still over the top, little more 'reasonable' 1/2, i.e. 0.5, $Bn.

[GreenKnight121]

Take your petty-@ss bickering somewhere else!

[E L Whisty]

There is no tale of human tragedy that will not be made more tragic by some half witted, amoral, self interested, scum sucking f***ing politician getting in to big themselves up.

Well said GreenKnight121.

Let us all cross our fingers and keep in mind, and hope, another of our brothers in arms who faces peril.

[barnstormer1968]

I can only agree with the two posts above.

This is a thread about an aircraft down in a very harsh environment, and some posters seems to think that this is the time to talk of production lines and monetary value!

I have my fingers crossed here, and will await further news on the pilot.

[Grimweasel]

Squirrel,

Bore off - get off your moral high horse and open your mind to possibilities.

[Squirrel 41]

Well, they've found the wreckage but not the pilot. And oh look, it's not in Russia or China.

Search for pilot continues after Alaska jet crash (http://wapo.st/d1YIzH)

Good luck to the guy.

Grim: I don't often resort to calling people out on here for being tossers, but you, with no evidence, suggested that someone who may well be dead, had committed high treason with one of the USAF's most prized assets. I suppose you work with F-22s on a daily basis and therefore know that the crews would take your banter in stride? :ugh: Or, perhaps not. Tosser. :*

S41

[E L Whisty]

You two girls need to stop sharing a room so you can get your cycles de-synchronised!

[ORAC]

F-22 pilot missing since Tuesday night plane crash in Alaska identified as Capt. Jeffrey Haney, formerly of Jackson County (http://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index.ssf/2010/11/missing_f-22_pilot_is_capt_jef.html)

The missing pilot of an Air Force F-22 fighter jet that crashed this week in a remote area of interior Alaska is Air Force Capt. Jeffrey A. Haney, whose mother lives in Jackson County, the man Haney calls his stepdad confirmed today.

Mike Viane, who has lived with Haney's mother for more than 20 years, said Haney's mother, Linda, and father are now on a plane to Alaska, where they will join Haney's wife, Anna, and the couple's two young daughters.

The two left this morning and are to arrive before midnight tonight, he said from he and Linda Haney's home on Gillette Road west of Brooklyn.

Haney, 31, has been in the Air Force for about five years, Viane said. He graduated from Columbia Central High School in 1997 and went to flight school at Western Michigan University.......

[L J R]

..God I hope he is alright in that Cold alaskan night....I remember Eilson in February and the night was nothing short of bitter......hang in there mate..

[GreenKnight121]

Looks like "no joy".

Air Force: Evidence points to F-22 pilot's death - KansasCity.com (http://www.kansascity.com/2010/11/19/2453891/air-force-evidence-points-to-f.html)

Air Force: Evidence points to F-22 pilot's death By RACHEL D'ORO Associated Press


Evidence found at the remote, rugged Alaska site where an F-22 Raptor crashed indicates the pilot died, an Air Force official said Friday evening.Part of the fighter jet's ejection seat was found at the site, which means Capt. Jeffrey Haney of Clarklake, Mich., was not ejected and could not have survived the Tuesday night crash, Col. Jack McMullen said.
"If the pilot was able to eject, the seat would go with him," McMullen said. Also, an emergency locator transmitter would have been activated if the pilot had ejected and it was not.
Also found were pieces of the flight suit Haney had been wearing.
No body or remains have been found at the site, which McMullen described as a wet area. He said the impact of the crash caused a large crater that swallowed up much of the jet. Recovery efforts are expected to last several weeks, given the challenges of removing the wreckage. McMullen said the effort involves about 130 personnel in temperatures that plunge to 20 below at night.

[barnstormer1968]

Sad news indeed.
What a shame that while this man was paying the ultimate price, armchair pundits were speculating about defection. I have never been aircrew, but am aghast at some of the posts in this thread.

R.I.P.

[Stu666]

Looks like the USAF have given up any hope of finding the pilot alive:

Pilot confirmed killed in Alaska fighter jet crash

Air Force fighter jet missing in Alaska
Nov 17, 2010
By Yereth Rosen
ANCHORAGE | Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:23am GMT

(Reuters) - The Air Force confirmed on Friday that the pilot of a fighter jet that crashed in Alaska earlier this week during a nighttime training mission perished in the accident.

Air Force officials initially had held out hope that the pilot of the F-22 Raptor, Captain Jeffrey Haney, might have ejected from the plane and survived Tuesday night's crash.

"Based on evidence recovered from the crash site, and after two days of extensive aerial and ground search efforts, we know that Captain Haney did not eject from the aircraft prior to impact," Colonel Jack McMullen, commander of the Air Force 3rd Wing at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, said in a statement.

Search teams at the wreckage site, about 100 miles north of Anchorage, found part of Haney's ejection seat and several items the pilot wore during the flight, McMullen said.

"Sadly, we can no longer consider this a search and rescue operation but must now focus on recovery operations," he said.

At a news conference, McMullen said the crash left a hole in the earth, and that most of what remains of the aircraft is below ground level. An aerial photo of the crash site showed a fairly round crater in the forest, surrounded by blackened trees.

Radar contact with Haney's aircraft was lost as the jet and another plane were returning to their home base at Elmendorf. The wreckage was spotted the next morning by an Alaska National Guard helicopter crew.

The Raptor, a single-seat, twin-engine fighter built by Lockheed Martin, is equipped with stealth technology.

(Writing by Steve Gorman; Editing by Peter Bohan)

Pilot confirmed killed in Alaska fighter jet crash | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AJ0BU20101120)

I know it sounds awful, but if the pilot didn't eject and passed away either prior or subsequent to crashing, what are the chances of animals getting to the body? Are there wolves in that part of the world? Seems very strange that there is no body but fragments of flight suit.

[forget]

... the crash left a hole in the earth, and that most of what remains of the aircraft is below ground level.

The aircraft clearly went in steep and fast. There'd be no recognisable parts of the pilot left. No wolves. Sad.

[d105]

Let's hope the pilot's death was quick and clean.

[Tashengurt]

Let's not dwell on this. If you must, use your imagination. RIP.

[davejb]

This thread really is taking the biscuit for insensitive comment.

1) No, the pilot didn't defect.
2) If it left a crater and the pilot was still in it at impact then no, it isn't all that odd not to find very much.

The pilot died, once upon a time that would not be occasion for speculation on the gory details, FFS.

Dave

[Airborne Aircrew]

The pilot died, once upon a time that would not be occasion for speculation on the gory details, FFS.Ahhh... But this is the "Internet World"... Those who have only ever lived in it expect video and soundbites... hopefully streamed directly to their iPhones as they shuffle their burgers at MacDonalds or Wendy's or collect their benefits because they are too lazy to work let alone serve...

Ignore them...

[jwcook]

Sad news.. RIP.

Do the Raptors have a black box to find the cause of the accident?.

Regards

[John Farley]

It is posts like yours that make me still come back to PPRuNe

Thank you.

JF

[Mick.B]

Raptor do have FDRs. Dont know what sort of condition it will be in. They will really want the info off it though.

[Tashengurt]

They will really want the info off it though

************** No sh*t ***************

[glad rag]

AA & Tashengurt...thanks.

RIP.

[DelaneyT]

Ignore them... {-- Airborne Aircrew}

Yes, the forum posts here generally go thru a very predictable sequence for any aircraft crash topic.

The first post or two is informative about initial, sketchy reports of a downed aircraft. That's quickly followed by a series of mawkish comments about the fate & stature of the pilot/aircrew... and perhaps some oddball speculation on the event. Further facts dribble in about the crash itself. If it's a hi-profile crash or there's enough forum interest... the thread eventually gets into serious objective discussion of the crash & causes. There are always one or two comments about how blasphemous it is to even discuss possible causes of the mishap ... prior to the sacred final report of the official mishap investigation board.

Aircraft have been crashing for over a century in huge numbers... and there's much knowledge as to why they do so. Experienced military aviators here certainly have deep insight on general causes of mishaps... that can be reasonably applied to specific aircraft events. After all -- this is a discussion forum of military aviation.

As to this specific F-22 crash, we know the pilot/aircraft impacted terrain at high speed. Non-ejection indicates the pilot was somehow incapacitated, late in the ejection decision, or perhaps had some ejection-system malfunction.
Primary mishap cause falls into known areas: maintenance, aircraft design, human factors, weather, etc.

More facts on this crash will trickle in; however, the location & condition of the aircraft will significantly slow the fact-finding. USAF mishap investigations & final reports are usually much faster than other aviation organizations.

Any comments on likely causes of this mishap ?

[Lonewolf_50]

RIP to our comrade in arms Captain Haney. :(:

In re the question on mishap causes.

The USAF most commonly sends aircraft out in flights of two.

My first question would be: Was it a two ship, and if so, what news from the wingman or flight lead?

If not, what manner of flight profile/training profile, would most likely be undertaken solo? I imagine there are a whole basket of training missions designed for a single ship night sortie. Been a while since I saw a T & R matrix. Can any USAF fighter jocks provide insight?

As noted previously, I was part of a SAR effort off of Eastern Turkey when a single ship USAF F-16 went into the bay near Iskenderun. Based on the radar info available for our SAR planning, mishap aircraft had a high Rate of Descent before being lost to radar. It took some weeks for them to find the aircraft, underwater. In very gross terms, this event sounds eerily similar.

Three thoughts come to mind for root causes for lost F-22:


Disorientation
Flight control/computer failure (that would have to be a multiple failure, given system redundancy in F-22 and other FBW jets)
Midair -- though with what I've no idea.
That initial evidence pointing to no ejection is troubling: was pilot incapacitated? I suspect that last point will remain unknown.

[Pontius Navigator]

And the terrain and weather.

Was it controlled flight into the ground such as high ground or rising in level flight or level terrain in diving flight in poor visibility or low feature contrast?

Taking the crash position from the earlier post the ground does not appear to be particularly high but certainly non-descript with trees and the Chulitna River. NW of the river though there is low mountainous terrain and snow.

NVG?

[Lonewolf_50]

Pontius:

From what little I know of F-22, its design and mission, I find it unlikely that low level nav is a mission (and hence training) focus for that aircraft. That leads me to guess that "low level nav route gone wrong" (how many times has that happened? Many ...) isn't an avenue of inquiry likely to bear much fruit. Also understand from the articles cited that the impact seems to have been more vertical like.

Am happy to be corrected, or to be shown where my understanding is off.

NVG training gone wrong? Could be.

[racedo]

Lonewolf

I remember back into the 70's when an aircraft was lost off the deck on a carrier and it was carrying an early version of a new misssile "Phoenix".

I think the whole area was saturated for weeks to try and find it because the implications of the commies finding it were scary.

[Lonewolf_50]

Yep, that was a Tomcat off of the Kennedy. (Off West Coast of England or Ireland, can't recall which).

IIRC, a small nuclear research sub (NR 1?) was what eventually found/recovered that Tomcat. Phoenix was a big deal in those days, for sure.

EDIT: well how about that, my memory was correct. Submarine Force Library & Museum: Submarine History, Gifts & Memorabilia (http://www.ussnautilus.org/association/klaxon.shtml)

[JEM60]

Lonewolf.
Just out interest, if I remember correctly, a tailfin from this aircraft was washed up on a beach in Ireland some years later. Can't remember whether east or west coast.

[Tashengurt]

Jem60,
Different Tomcat. The tailfin that was washed up came from a jet lost in the Gulf of Mexico!
I believe it now adorns the wall of a certain RAF pilot who once flew the 'cat on exchange.

[DelaneyT]

The U.S. Air Force is investigating whether the On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) found on several U.S. Air Force warplanes, including the F-22 Raptor, might be defective.

"Air Force operational commanders have temporarily restricted F-22 flight operations to an altitude at or below 25,000 feet for routine training missions" ...

"Air Combat Command is conducting an investigation to assess on-board oxygen generating systems on several platforms, including the F-22,...


A Lockheed Martin spokesman confirmed that the restriction has been in place ever since an F-22 based at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, crashed in November 2010.

One Air Force source said that an OBOGS malfunction might have been responsible for the incident...


{published: 24 Mar 2011}



Aircraft Oxygen-Generating Systems Under Investigation
(http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15338.html)

[JEM60]

Tashengurt. Just seen your correction. Many thanks.

[ORAC]

:hmm::hmm:

DefenseNews: USAF Board Blames Pilot, Not Oxygen System, in F-22 Crash
(http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8568683&c=AME&s=AIR)
A U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board (AIB) report is blaming the Nov. 16, 2010, crash of an F-22 Raptor on Capt. Jeff "Bong" Haney - despite a malfunction of the jet's bleed air intakes, which caused an automatic shutdown of multiple aircraft systems including the primary oxygen system.

An aircraft's engine bleed air system extracts air from a jet engine's compressor section to generate power and supply gases for an aircraft's life support system, among other systems.

The AIB report confirms Defense News' Sept. 8 report (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=7624955), in which an industry source and a pilot both said that a bleed air malfunction had caused the crash by shutting down the oxygen system. The AIB, however, places the blame on Haney for not reacting quickly enough to activate the jet's emergency oxygen system or recover from a dive he inadvertently entered into as he struggled to regain his air supply.

"I find the cause of the mishap was the MP's [mishap pilot] failure to recognize and initiate a timely dive recovery due to channelized attention, breakdown of visual scan and unrecognized spatial disorientation," wrote Brig. Gen. James Browne, president of the AIB.

The F-22's On-board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS), which supplies breathing air to the pilot and has been under investigation for most of the year, did not malfunction and wasn't a contributing factor, the report said. But the crucial device did shut down because of the bleed-air problem. In September, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz said oxygen had not played any role in the crash.

The report notes that "the MP most likely experienced a sense similar to suffocation," but also rules out hypoxia as contribution factor however despite the shut down of the oxygen system.

"Due to the high affinity of oxygen to hemoglobin, the MP would have had adequate blood oxygen supply after the OBOGS failed," the AIB report states. "It was concluded that the late recognition of the MA's [mishap aircraft's] unusual attitude and appropriate corrective actions attempted by the MP demonstrates that hypoxia was not a factor in this mishap."

A knowledgeable source agreed that Haney would not have fully succumbed to hypoxia, but would have been showing symptoms. Despite what the report says, the source said hypoxia would have played a role even if the pilot had not been rendered unconscious.

"The rate at which he descended, though, he would have been at a hypoxia-safe altitude within time to have not fully succumbed to hypoxia and should have only had symptoms versus unconsciousness," the source said.

The environmental control system (ECS), air cycle system, On-Board Inert Gas Generating System (OBIGGS), cabin pressure and OBOGS were all shut down when the aircraft's computer shut off the malfunctioning bleed-air system, according to the AIB report. The bleed-air system remains closed in the event of a malfunction to prevent fires.

The aircraft's memory unit showed "partial pressure to the MP's [mishap pilot] oxygen stopped shortly after 19:42:37 L, which would lead to severely restricted breathing," the accident report reads.

However, Haney did retain enough consciousness to attempt a recovery from a steep dive the aircraft entered into right before the crash. It was too late, however, as the Raptor impacted the ground a scant three seconds later.

However, Haney did not manage to active the Emergency Oxygen System (EOS) to supply him with air, which he needed to do in case the OBOGS shutdown. As the report notes "severely restricted breathing is a physiological symptom which would have prompted the [mishap pilot] to active the EOS."

Pilots have said that the emergency oxygen supply is notoriously difficult to use in the Raptor.

The AIB report states that as Haney struggled for air, "he channelized his attention on restoring airflow to his oxygen mask."

As Haney fought to restore his oxygen supply, he inadvertently began to roll the aircraft and his "visual scan" of the aircraft's instruments and external situation broke down. He entered into a state of "unrecognized spatial disorientation," according to the AIB report. The aircraft rolled 240 degrees and dropped to a 53 degree nose down attitude. Had Haney not been distracted by trying to breathe, he would have recognized the problem, the report reads. Haney didn't make any intentional control inputs for some 39 seconds.

"The fact that the [mishap pilot] went from a controlled flight regime to an unusual attitude and did not take corrective actions for 30 seconds suggests he had unrecognized spatial disorientation," the AIB report reads. "At 19:42:24L the [mishap pilot] recognized the [mishap aircraft's] position and attempted to perform a dive recovery."

Ultimately, the Air Force chose to blame Haney rather than attribute the crash to a malfunctioning bleed-air system and a difficult to use emergency oxygen supply.

[Lonewolf_50]

"The fact that the [mishap pilot] went from a controlled flight regime to an unusual attitude and did not take corrective actions for 30 seconds suggests he had unrecognized spatial disorientation," the AIB report reads. "At 19:42:24L the [mishap pilot] recognized the [mishap aircraft's] position and attempted to perform a dive recovery."

Ultimately, the Air Force chose to blame Haney rather than attribute the crash to a malfunctioning bleed-air system and a difficult to use emergency oxygen supply.

Training issue here?
Ergonomics?
Flight regime? I'd love to have a look at the AIB ...

If the emer oxygen system is hard to use, and that difficulty is known, what training is done to overcome that diffiuclty? When you are in extremis, you typically revert back to your training.

Was he in a flight regime where he could not trim S & L while troubleshooting? The info leaves a lot missing.

Thanks for the updates, even if troubling.

It would be interesting to see the F-22 PCL and boldface for an OBOGS malfunction to understand what went amiss here.
:{

[BEagle]

Had Haney not been distracted by trying to breathe, he would have recognized the problem, the report reads.

No $hit, Sherlock.

The environmental control system (ECS), air cycle system, On-Board Inert Gas Generating System (OBIGGS), cabin pressure and OBOGS were all shut down when the aircraft's computer shut off the malfunctioning bleed-air system, according to the AIB report.

What a very clever design....NOT! One would have thought that such a single point failure might also trigger the emergency O2 and yell "DESCEND.....DESCEND!!" at the pilot who found himself in such a dire situation.

[BOAC]

Like I say with Airbus - what's the point in having all those clever computers if they screw you up when things get tough?:confused:

[NigelOnDraft]

Flight regime? I'd love to have a look at the AIB ...Well, do so, it's here (http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/air-force-f22-report-121411.pdf)

what's the point in having all those clever computers if they screw you up when things get tough?Whilst it states it was the computer which "shut off" the OBOGS, the OBOGS requires Bleed Air by definition, and so with/without computers, a Bleed Air Fault = No OBOGS :eek:

Ultimately, the Air Force chose to blame Haney rather than attribute the crash to a malfunctioning bleed-air system and a difficult to use emergency oxygen supplyA bit harsh possibly? Read the report.

From reading elsewhere, it is a requirement of certain accident reports (may apply to USAF as well?) to attribute a single "cause" to an accident. One also lists contributory factors. Where the combination of factors all combine e.g. removing any one of them would have prevented the accident, then you list the "proximate" (IIRC) factor, which in practice means the final one. Provided my recollection is correct, then this is the correct cause, since the pilot did attempt to recover albeit too late.

Where Defence News has it wrong is to say:the Air Force chose to blame Haney - apart from the fact such reports are not there to "attribute blame", I can see nothing indicating blame. He "failed to recognize...", but that might be prefectly understandable given the circumstances and (inadequate) training / equipment.

NoD

[John Farley]

http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/air-force-f22-report-121411.pdf

[LowObservable]

It sounds as if the pilot was focused on trying to breathe - and looking at the Rube Goldberg set-up for activating the emergency oxygen system, I'm not surprised that it never got turned on.

[BOAC]

How hard would it be to unclip the mask with all the headgear on?

My comment on computers referred to why the 'computer' could not be programmed to turn on the emerg oxy (I appreciate the existing mechanism). I assume there is no inward relief valve on the mask?

[NigelOnDraft]

Hi BOAC...

I think your questions might be answered in the report ;) It is certainly not overly "complimentary" about the systems / AEA...

NoD

[sycamore]

"For a ha`porth of Tar ,the ship was lost"....Ergonomics is obviously not a strong point in assessing `emergency Controls` under duress....fumbling around ,looking for a 10cent `coke-can ring-pull` (sorry,at F-22 prices it probably cost $1000)..

[Biggus]

Presumably the ejection seat has some form of independent oxygen supply?

Therefore, the next time a F-22 pilot has breathing difficulties all he has to do is eject, and the company/USAF will see the cost benefits of an easy to use emergency oxygen system, as opposed to losing a $150M aircraft....





Of course the tragedy here, which my comments are not intended to belittle, is the loss of life caused by the poor design of an essential safety feature!!

[500N]

Biggus,

"Therefore, the next time a F-22 pilot has breathing difficulties all he has to do is eject, and the company/USAF will see the cost benefits of an easy to use emergency oxygen system, as opposed to losing a $150M aircraft...."

Wouldn't they see both ?

If the pilot ejects, they lose the aircraft as well / anyway ?

Or is the F22 that good it has a RTB by itself mode:O

[Biggus]

No doubt my English let me down.....

What I was trying to say was that an easy to use emergency oxygen system would save them the cost involved in losing a $150M aircraft, let alone save lives.....








But I would guess that you knew that was what I was trying to say!! :=

[BOAC]

I think your questions might be answered in the report http://www.pprune.org/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAA8AAAAPCAIAAAC0tAIdAAAAm 0lEQVQokaVRuxUDMQjTCp6FndhJO2knpQDOyf2aUPBsQCAE8I+ZMMOECed7n WL8BtxgJh1WiFEAFeA6xIIZqq7j98z8aQwzvgKrAJ3NX4AZ1dsKK60cPs1QC fNEg1UaVm4+vJDpVRQmxJhReKjOntXKNIHW5GHRhAhgmTi0q+9FwZzdCWBtc fJO76P99vPQy/11AG5v/mbrHPgAkJXFbq32WRAAAAAASUVORK5CYII= - well, darned if I can see them. Could you kindly direct me?

[sycamore]

Post 47 & 48

[BOAC]

Post 47 & 48 - are these in the report? I cannot see them. Can anyone give me a sensible answer?

[NigelOnDraft]

How hard would it be to unclip the mask with all the headgear on?While, IIRC, not directly answered, doing anything in that cockpit with the NVGs / CAT III CW clothing etc. seemed difficult.

However, nor was it part of the drill. He was at 50K', pressurisation gone as well as Oxy, I am sure from your WIWOL days that getting rid of your Oxy mask was not high on your priority list ;) In retrospect, he was descending (too) rapdily, the Cabin Alt was only rising slowly, and dumping the mask would have relieved the immediate symptoms... but that requires thinking outside the box and with 20:20 hindisght (IMHO).

Think through the UPS 744 out of DXB. Again, inability to breath, and possibly poor training / drills / AEA led to various issues (IIRC, Capt did toggle 100% correctly, so now could not breathe - P2 did not toggle, so could breath, albeit the contaminated cockpit air).

could not be programmed to turn on the emerg oxy (I appreciate the existing mechanism). I think looking at the ACES II EO system not possible - somewhat of an ergonmic nightmare, and to me, #1 factor in the outcome :( When compared to the MB single pull, accessible, visible, toggle ball :D

I assume there is no inward relief valve on the mask?Seems not. Not sure which masks did/do? Even on current JP/Hunter flying, if the Oxy system is off / dries up, you cannot breath (albeit I do not know if a really deep inhale would open a valve?) - in itself (and as here), at least lets you know there is a problem.

NoD

[charliegolf]

I know I'm dim, but to re-ask BEagle's question: why didn't emergency oxygen flow automatically, with a manual 'OFF' rather than a manual 'ON' selection being needed. Fire risk?

Happy to be tutored here.

CG

PS I know the 'actual' answer- it's not designed to!

[Tashengurt]

British masks have a small anti suffocation valve.

[BOAC]

Certainly the later 'fastjet' masks, but not the old ones that NoD talks of, and as for flying with NBC kit,.NVGs, don't start..................:mad:

[overstress]

The report is interesting reading, especially the graph towards the end which shows the poor chap initiated recovery 3 seconds too late :sad:

I suppose "fly the aircraft" is easy to say when you are not in the jet, at night, disoriented and struggling to breathe and encumbered by NVGs, trying to work out what's wrong :sad:

Not sure where I heard "task fixation leads to disorientation" but it seems relevant here. Take care out there chaps/esses.

[BEagle]

Has anyone seen what the actual cabin altitude reached when the event occurred? How is the F-22 canopy sealed to the fuselage?

So there you are, flying a complex sortie, wearing extreme cold weather gear for the first time that year - and it's night. You're supercruising at above 50K when the oxygen supply fails and the cabin pressure fails.....

What about the resulting mist and condensation from the drop in cabin pressure? I remember that being quite significant in the old chambers at Luffenham even doing a simple 25K-45K in 3 sec bang.

You're now groping blindly for a difficult to find ring in cumbersome clothing, in the dark and very probably with a misted up visor....and then you start to suffocate.

The aircraft starts to descend at over 50 000ft/min at supersonic speed......

RIP - and I don't think the pilot should be considered blameworthy in any respect. If you're suffocating, can't see and can't find the poorly-designed EmO2 ring, you might well begin to feel a sense of panic, no matter how good a fighter pilot you are.

If other pilots complained about the design of the EmO2 ring-pull, why the hell wasn't urgent modification action taken?

[NigelOnDraft]

Has anyone seen what the actual cabin altitude reached when the event occurred? How is the F-22 canopy sealed to the fuselage?

What about the resulting mist and condensation from the drop in cabin pressure? I remember that being quite significant in the old chambers at Luffenham even doing a simple 25K-45K in 3 sec bang.The mist is from "explosive decompression". Here, the "Cabin Press" warning did not come on for ~55s after the event, and as the aircraft passed 19,000'. Not sure what the Cabin Alt was at that point, but would imply the decompression was not rapid?

I know I'm dim, but to re-ask BEagle's question: why didn't emergency oxygen flow automatically, with a manual 'OFF' rather than a manual 'ON' selection being needed. Fire risk?Well, as you say, PS I know the 'actual' answer- it's not designed to!but more fundementally, because EO is part of the seat, not the aircraft - a desirable state of affairs normally. I don't think the issue is "why did it not work automatically" - it was obvious he needed it, and he correctly seems to have gone for it - issue is why is it so difficult to use?

A deeper question might be that normal O2 systems are fairly independant of other aircraft systems, and have automatic functions e.g. decompression go to high flow / pressure breathing. Therefore the seat back-up is adequate.

However, OBOGS is tied in deeply to the aircraft systems, and more liable to failure. It might therefore be appropriate for there to be an aircraft emergency system that is more automatic, or at least simple to use? When I flew with OBOGS, it was pretty reliable IIRC, although pretty easy to generate intermittent false warnings - it correctly was a "top level" warning - but that in turn meant you tended to ignore it because it was so regular. I believe it was a factor in an accident when a top-level warning (Flaps?) was ignored in the belief it was the OBOGS (again...)

NoD

[BEagle]

NoD, the mighty F-4 could mist up very easily at any level and you could get hailstorms inside a Hunter at times - not just because of rapid decompression. But that was due to the rather antiquated conditioning systems in such jets.

The F-22A cabin pressure warning doesn't seem to have been a low pressure warning, more that it was 'outside the schedule'.

If you're hot and sweaty and the cabin ECS fails, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't take much to cause the visor to mist up, even if the cockpit itself didn't actually fill with mist.

[The Old Fat One]

Beags,

Good post.

The idea that performance of the pilot can be meaningfully analysed in these circumstances is absurd.

The instant any form of oxygen shortage impacts the brain a whole raft of physiological implications kick in...different in everybody and in each circumstance. They would have had to have had the poor chap wired up with all that crap the astronaults wear, with a squad of flight surgeons chewing it through in real time to get any useful data on how he was reacting...and even then it would count for little more than the square root of **** all.

I remember an occasion at North Luffenham when they blew the chamber with 8 of us on board for rapid decompression drills. Seven of us took our masks off and started chirping down from 100 (minus 7 each time as I recall) IAW the brief. The eighth took his mask off, glazed over and pitched foward out for the count (excuting a near perfect Glasgow Kiss on the onboard medic who was leaning into him, LOL). Seemed he suffered from some sort of shock reaction.

Aircraft and pilot lost due to malfunction...end of. RIP.

[Courtney Mil]

Those are all good points. I don't recall the USAF O2 mask causing suffocation with the supply switched off/failed. It is possible to move your jaw to break the seal and breathe round it. I would have thought hypoxia in that case. Of course my old F-15 kit has probably been superseded by something far more deadly.

Your point about the effects of panic through being unable to breathe is spot on. I do a lot of diving and recall an incident a couple of years back. Not pleasant and totally disproportionate to the reality of the situation. Certainly focusses the mind on a single issue. And not always the most important one!

[John Farley]

My generation were very happy to allow Pilot Error as a cause of accidents regardless of whether some aspect of the aircraft made life hard for the pilot.

However in today's more enlightened times given the information in the AIB report (there may be more that we don't have of course) I think to say this accident was pilot error is quite astonishing.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Beagle

He was on NVGs, so he would not have had a visor in place.

[BEagle]

Really? I thought that F-22A aircrew had one of those clever full-face jobs with projected sighting information....

[Cows getting bigger]

It seems to me that our unfortunate pilot possibly made an understandable error of judgment when faced with a systems malfunction and associated design weakness. Bearing in mind the whole Mull Chinook discussion, the USAF analysis appears to be rather harsh. I wonder how F22 drivers feel. :bored:

[NutLoose]

Ouch


F-22 Jet Is (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-15/lockheed-s-f-22-expensive-corroding-hangar-queen-mccain-says.html)

[jamesdevice]

Air Force Blames Pilot in Suspicious Stealth-Jet Crash | Danger Room | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/12/f-22-crash/)

I think this sums up nicely what many of you are trying to say

[500N]

I read the report but can't remember seeing anything about why the pilot failed to eject at the last minute ? I suspect I missed something.

[Lonewolf_50]

Nigel, thanks for the link. :ok:

[Lonewolf_50]

500N

Is ejecting in a Mach 1.1 dive within the envelope for safe ejection?

It appears he was trying to get out of his Unusual Attitude all the way to the deck.

[500N]

lonewolf

Thanks for that.:ok: Part of the answer was in jamesdevice's linked article and that made me go back to the report.

[BOAC]

Is ejecting in a Mach 1.1 dive within the envelope for safe ejection? - one would hope so, but by the time he realised the situation (ie started to pull) he would almost certainly have been outside seat parameters due to height/rate of descent./airframe attitude. All a/c with ejector seats have their own 'coffin corner' in terms of seat capability v a/c manoeuvre capability.

[The Old Fat One]

by the time he realised the situation


No criticism of your post...but therein lies the problem. Same sort of comments made in the report and in other posts on this thread.

The guy either had the correct amount of oxygen in his brain or he did not. If he did not, all bets are off as to his performance levels, including his decision and motor skills and his ability to realise his situation

Training and ability may have no relevance whatsoever...it all depends on the circumstance. Once your kite starts falling to bits around you, training and ability are just factors in what has become a random game of chance. If the emergency is containable and your drills are good you have a better chance of survival, than the numpty who has neglected his training...but no outcome is certain. Becoming impaired, for whatever reason, is just another factor, but one that is going to play a big part in the outcome...and not in a good way.

Oxygen failure has acoounted for many aircrew, military and civilian (and many passengers). Sometimes the crew/pilot will have spotted the problem and fixed it. Sometimes the crew/pilot will have spotted the problem and stoved in anyway. Sometimes the crew/pilot will never have known what happened to them.

How much did to the oxygen failure impair the pilot in this case ...we don't know and we never will. All we know is the oxygen failed to some degree.

Period.


PS I kinda agree with JF. In earlier times life was a little more honest. If the pilot **** up the report said so. Equally if the ac failed the report would have said that too. The vacillation we see nowadays does little to improve flight safety or training. I'm pretty sure an old style accident report on this event would simply have said words to the effect of..

Oxygen supply failed and killed pilot.

[glojo]

I guess those that put forward these accusations would suggest that pilots being presented with the same conditions can comfortably recover from the situation..

A situation the pilot is forewarned about and probably in a simulator.

What an awful, awful waste of a human life and then to publish a report that causes further distress to this man's loved ones is not the sort of loyalty I would expect from my 'employer' Reading that report really highlights the awful conditions that were thrown at that pilot.

I say waste of a human life just because of the issues with this aircraft. If a pilot makes mistakes then they must accept the consequences. if a manufacturer\designer has made mistakes then surely they also have a duty to accept they made mistakes. I am not someone that believes in litigation but by crikey.

I hope the next of kin of that pilot sues the bee Jesus out of the manufacturer of that aircraft... :\:\ Said in my best Mr Angry voice.

My respects to this man's Next of Kin

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Beagle

No, the F-22 does not have an HMS at this time.

NVGs are attached to the pilot's HGU-55 via a 'banana clip' that means the visor cannot be raised or lowered - as a consequence, the visor is almost always removed altogether.

[glojo]

Hi OK465,
I totally agree and FULLY endorse your sentiments and I can say that first hand.

I know you quoted my post and I stand by what I said but only because of the way this man is being portrayed.

I accept it is only being said that his actions were contributory to that incident, but the implication is far more character assassinating?

This is just one headline:

Pilot is to blame for F-22 crash in Alaska, Air Force says

Anchorage Daily News click here (http://www.adn.com/2011/12/15/2219834/pilot-is-to-blame-for-f-22-crash.html)

Is that right or fair?

Is this what we expect and what about the victim's children when they go to school? There is nowt as spiteful as children and can we even begin to imagine what they are having to contend with? In my humble opinion this could have been avoided quite simply by blaming the defective equipment!

I guess I just feel angry that this type of headline has been allowed... it has been allowed because the USAF used words that they knew would do just that.

They must have known what they were doing when they wrote that report for public release.

They must have known how the media would react.

They must have known the media would 'slaughter' the good name of that pilot.

It smacks of an attempt to sacrifice the good name of a loyal pilot just to cover up an issue they are fully aware of!!!

Many apologies for my response but I would like to think that pilot deserved better...and boy I would like to have words with those that worded that report in the way they have.

No one but no one knows if the pilot suffered any physical symptoms as a result of that DEFECTIVE EQUPMENT

No one knows when or indeed IF this pilot FULLY recovered from any possible effects of that DEFECTIVE EQUIPMENT

I accept he tried to recover the aircraft but without being too graphic it very much sounds like his remains have sadly not been recovered which means we will never know just how fully compos mentis this man was solely because of the DEFECTIVE EQUIPMENT that was possibly the direct cause of the pilot needing to taking corrective action which may, or may not have caused him to become either semi-concious or even possibly black out.

did he suffer from deprivation of oxygen? My answer would be 'Yes' but who can say by what degree?

The part of my quote you accidentally left out was:

I am not someone that believes in litigation but by crikey

I agree entirely with your sentiments but when someone stabs you in the back in the style they have deliberately encouraged then I just feel those responsible need a 'slap'

Apologies one and all for the emotive post but wrong is wrong and I feel better for saying it :O:O:O

[lightningmate]

It is not the aircraft manufacturer that 'approves' the aircraft to be operated in the military flying environment - it is the Military Authority.

All too often, because of cost and/or delay or simple inability to understand an issue identified by others, the said Military Authority accepts obvious deficiencies in systems etc and clears a platform into Service.

Once this action has been taken, the aircraft manufacturer is of the hook and any subsequent remedy that is deemed essential must be paid for by the tax payer. That places the whole problem back into the 'cost loop' again with all the attendant affordability issues; plus the cost to fix will now have risen considerably!

lm

[jamesdevice]

am I correct in thinking that the onboard oxygen generation equipment comes from Honeywell - i.e. a British Normalair-Garrett (as was) product?

[BEagle]

Pilots have said that the emergency oxygen supply is notoriously difficult to use in the Raptor.

Has this obvious defect been properly reported? Or is this information merely from crewroom grumbling...

[Bevo]

am I correct in thinking that the onboard oxygen generation equipment comes from Honeywell - i.e. a British Normalair-Garrett (as was) product? The F-22 OBOGS unit is supplied by Honeywell as is the unit on the F-35.

[jamesdevice]

"The F-22 OBOGS unit is supplied by Honeywell as is the unit on the F-35."
So admitting there may be a problem with the OBOGS of the F-22 could lead to political issues over the workshare on the F-35?

[Easy Street]

james,

The F-22's On-board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS), which supplies breathing air to the pilot and has been under investigation for most of the year, did not malfunction and wasn't a contributing factor, the report said. But the crucial device did shut down because of the bleed-air problem.

Unless I am mis-reading this text, the serviceability of the OBOGS itself was not a factor in this accident. Rather it was a failure of the aircraft's own bleed-air system which starved the OBOGS of the air input it needed to function. So this particular accident looks unlikely to be laid at Honeywell's door.

[NigelOnDraft]

JF: I think to say this accident was pilot error is quite astonishingI am not sure the report does say this is "Pilot Error"? I might be misunderstanding your point (?) of course ;)

Ditto the oft quoted Air Force Blames Pilot ... yet the report does not blame the pilot. It finds factors, but nowhere do I see "negligence", "poor judgement", even "error". It does state the pilot "failure to recognize and initiate..." - but that is not the same as blame. He clearly did "fail to...", but nowhere does it say he ought to have "recognized" etc. in the circumstances i.e. the root cause of his failure might be other factors e.g. training / equipment.

NoD

[Bevo]

So admitting there may be a problem with the OBOGS of the F-22 could lead to political issues over the workshare on the F-35?Not sure. The F-35 has a different model although they obviously are related. I believe that the F-35 system was evaluated during the original F-22 grounding and found not to have problems.

[jamesdevice]

The problem is when some pork-barreling congressman realises that theres a foreign supplier he can take a pot shot at and tries to mandate a bill insisting on USA manufactured kit

[mini]

Just dipping in here.

This guy was at 55 thousand feet. What has night vision got to offer ?

If he was at anything other than ground hogging why NVG?

[Easy Street]

1) NVG help you stay oriented whilst looking out of the window as you can see the ground surface quite clearly even from high altitude (providing there is decent moonlight or cultural lighting). This avoids the problem of perceiving false horizons due to confusion between stars and points of light on the surface.

2) NVG immediately highlight any aircraft displaying lights or using reheat. A view of the night skies over the UK using NVG will reveal many, many more aircraft than you could possibly see by day even in the clearest weather. Indeed it can become very confusing as you get very little idea of range. However if you have a radar or GCI service to help correlate the picture then you can get very long-range tallies (50nm+) using NVG.

Additional uses of NVG at high altitude, not relevant in this case, are close formation flying at night and joining AAR. Boom AAR such as practised by the USAF is often completed wearing NVG (most probe-and-drogue receivers will remove NVG once behind the tanker due to the lack of depth perception).

[BEagle]

NVG immediately highlight any aircraft displaying lights or using reheat.

Indeed. Back in May 1982, we were tasked to fly a single F-4 as a target for a Harrier testing early NVGs very late one night.

The Harrier mate saw us from miles away when we were just cruising along showing normal lights. Then he read out our registration letters whilst still in loose formation. He was most chuffed with the way the NVGs were working. Then he asked me to pop one into burner....

"Ah - wish I hadn't asked that! The whole world's just gone bright green!"

[John Farley]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/F-22reportcopy.jpg

Since oinly the MP is criticised in this conclusion I believe that is just a PC way of saying Pilot Error. The above is a picture from the actual report. They could have used a proof reader.

[LowObservable]

Not so much a proofreader as a new copy of Adobe Acrobat. It's about as easy to read as the EOS is easy to activate.

[NigelOnDraft]

Hi John...

Since oinly the MP is criticised in this conclusion I believe that is just a PC way of saying Pilot Error.It could be read that way.

However, if you come at it from a different viewpoint, firstly it was the direct "cause" of the accident - after all, if he had "recognized" etc. the accident would not have occurred. That viewpoint applied would also lead me to say the quote you give is not "criticism" - just an observation. Furthermore, the subsequent "factors" given in the report make it fairly clear that it was perfectly understandable, if not likely, that the pilot would "fail to recognize" / "make timely"... and that the priority needs to be given to correcting those "factors" in order to remove the likliehood of the "cause" being repeated i.e. you can improve training / equipment, you cannot easily improve scan rates / prioritisation of an already clearly capable and experienced pilot.

Quite what "cause" "fault" "blame" can be inferred depends on what the terms of Ref are for USAF Accident Investigations - I believe AF 51-503 which I cannot find after a quick search.

NoD

[Brian Abraham]

Hypoxic hypoxia is an insidious event. Here is one such, a lone pilot who had an aircraft fail to pressurise, and by luck more then anything, survived.

http://atsb.gov.au/media/2499615/ao2009044.pdf

[John Farley]

I understand your interpretation and what you are getting at.

[Vzlet]

Interesting read of another "post-OBOGS shutdown, elusive green ring" incident (albeit during daytime) on page 17 here:
http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/media/approach/App_Nov-Dec11.pdf

The F-22 mishap pilot had an additional disadvantage of being supersonic. Once he inadvertently got nose low, things happened overwhelmingly quickly.

[Two's in]

Interesting that despite no "smoking gun" (sic) being discovered the F-22 continues to enounter pilot reported oxygen related problems. Obviously the fatality in Alaska and the subsequent lawsuit has focused the USAF to look closer at this, the more cynical would question how many hypoxia related incidents you need before you start a full investigation.

F-22 Oxygen Problem Still Eluding Investigators (http://www.military.com/news/article/f22-oxygen-problem-still-eluding-investigators.html)

F-22 pilots will keep flying the world’s leading fighter jet even though service leaders cannot figure out why its pilots continue suffocating in flight, officials said Thursday.

Pilots continue to periodically report suffering hypoxia-like symptoms, which occur when not enough oxygen reaches the brain. The Air Force lost one F-22 and its pilot, Capt. Jeff Haney, in 2010 after his onboard oxygen system shut down and his plane crashed into the Alaskan wilderness.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

The Air Force lost one F-22 and its pilot, Capt. Jeff Haney, in 2010 after his onboard oxygen system shut down and his plane crashed into the Alaskan wilderness.

... but that's just not right, is it? The OBOGS worked exactly as advertised, right up until it shut down because of the bleed air overheat. I appreciate it did shut down, but this makes it sound like it was a failure and connected to other F22 hypoxia/fumes incidents. The OBOGS was meant to shut down!

This is one of those accidents that we'll never be able to identify the direct cause with 100% authority, except for the nebulous "something stopped him concentrating on flying the jet and he flew it into the ground." Rather than blaming a system that worked just because it's flavour of the month, though, I'd be looking at rapidly redesigning a pointlessly-awkward emergency oxygen system that is almost impossible to operate in the dark in cold weather kit.

[ORAC]

Ares: 60 Minutes Over Langley (http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2012/05/04/60-minutes-over-langley/)

http://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/raptorpilots.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1

A pair of Air Force F-22 pilots from Virginia’s Langley Air Force Base is swapping the air for the airwaves Sunday night, explaining to CBS’ 60 Minutes why they’ve opted not to continue flying the F-22, the Air Force’s hottest fighter. Major Jeremy Gordon and Captain Josh Wilson detail their concerns – shared by other Raptor drivers – that the aircraft doesn’t guarantee them sufficient oxygen.

Is the F-22 safe to fly? “I’m not comfortable answering that question,” Gordon responds. “I’m not comfortable flying in the F-22 right now.” Hypoxia – a lack of oxygen that has persisted in the F-22 despite vain Air Force probes to figure out why – is dangerous. “The onset,” Gordon says, “is insidious.”

Wilson tells Lesley Stahl of his dogfight against hypoxia during an F-22 flight last year. “It was…kind of a surreal experience,” he says, taking “immense concentration” to perform simple tasks. Pulling an emergency oxygen ring proved daunting: “I couldn’t find it. I couldn’t remember what part of the aircraft it was in.”

That apparently was the challenge facing Air Force Captain Jeff Haney, who experienced breathing problems before his fatal F-22 crash in Alaska in 2010. The Air Force blamed Haney, and not his F-22, for the crash.

All of this is embarrassing to the Air Force, which bought 179 operational F-22s for more than $400 million each. Designed to combat the next-generation of Soviet fighters – which never materialized – the planes have sat on the tarmac despite the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya raging in the skies above them. They have no role in today’s wars, and by the time there’s someone to battle, they’ll be obsolete.

In the seven months since the grounded F-22 was returned to flight – after experts could not pinpoint the source of the breathing problems – there have been 11 more cases of hypoxia reported. That’s fairly rare, but as these pilots step into the limelight, one thing is clear: another mysterious crash and the F-22 could be in a steep dive from which recovery may prove impossible.

[Courtney Mil]

Doesn't the F-35 also use a Honeywell OBOGS?

[phil9560]

But you can't 'deal with' hypoxia.It's rather insidious.

[Load Toad]

And they would 'deal with it', without fanfare, while the whole thing is resolved.

This isn't the the first fighter, nor will it be the last, that has killed someone...

US$150 million each + the effects of hypoxia = do you really want to crash any not knowing where they'll fall?

[Load Toad]

Seems a rather flippant attitude to have with other peoples lives.

Of course there are risks - this seems to be resilient & persistent one.

[The Old Fat One]

Seems a rather flippant attitude to have with other peoples lives.


Flippant? I'd go with unenlightened and potentially a little unstable.

[BEagle]

I'm on my 8th Spaten Optimator, I can 'deal with it'....

Perhaps best to ignore Saturday night posts from someone on their 8th bottle of 7.6% ABV beer?

Hypoxia is indeed insidious - OBOGS failure needs to be clearly annunciated and a back-up system triggered automatically. End of.

[glojo]

When I first read this thread I was appalled to see how those officers had gone outside their chain of command and gone public discussing issues that should remain within their squadron. To appear live on a TV channel is just so wrong and surely this would mean the end of their careers. Would they be removed from flying duties and possibly given a posting to Antarctica where they could count snowflakes?

Then on another thread I was reading posts by a number of highly qualified forum members who were and still are highly critical of military investigations into aircraft accidents\incidents. They quite rightly doubt the integrity of those that act as purchaser, owner, investigator, judge and jury. They query the impartiality of those in charge and question just how critical or impartial these investigations will be.

My questions therefore is how impartial have the investigations into the issues with the F-22 been? Have these officers given statements, been questioned by investigators and their evidence treated with the respect it may deserve? If these officers have seen reports that have been released regarding the alleged issues and if they are a cover-up that blames the pilots as opposed to the alleged defective equipment, then what options would they have? Have they gone through the correct channels to voice their concerns? Have they been stone walled and if so do they feel they have no alternative other than to go public regarding an issue they might feel will lead to more deaths?

I am NOT defending their actions as I find it so totally wrong to go public, I am however trying to understand why they have done what they did. Would I even have ‘the courage’ to go outside my chain of command regarding this type of issue?

[Thelma Viaduct]

Watch Afterburn Trailer - Video Detective (http://www.videodetective.com/movies/afterburn/4097)

It wouldn't be the first time that someone who is directly affected by the deaths of loved ones or colleagues has to cause a stir to get the right things done. Since when has the using the chain of command ever got anything achieved quickly??? It's used as an excuse for those that wish to remain unaccountable & since when has the chain of command had more importance than lives??? It's easy to be the one making the assertion when it's not your friends or family at real risk, put yourself in their shoes.

History repeats, never trust a politician or the military.

[dat581]

Can a portable oxygen detector be used by the pilots in the cockpit? I'm a mining official by trade and must carry an instrument to detect methane and a deficency of oxygen at all times whilst underground. It alarms (vibrations, a loud beep and flashing red lights) when the oxygen level drops under 19.5%. The unit is no larger than a mobile phone and the only problem I can see is that we are at a constant air pressure and not sitting in a fighter cockpit with constantly variable pressure as it goes about it's business. The type we used is sensitive to pressure changes but that's not to say other types are too. The Xam 5000 costs a few thousand dollars which is chicken feed to the cost of an F-22 or a pilot's life.

[NutLoose]

The pilot is breathing it through a mask and not from the cockpit. So would need to be in the supply.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, measuring the partial pressure of O2 is simple - the O2 sensor is a small device and easily fitted into any breathing system. We use them in diving for various reasons. The don't have a very good shelf or service life, though.

It may not solve the problem, but could certainly overcome a symptom of it.

You should patent the idea before the manufacturers read this!

Courtney

[Courtney Mil]

Probably not with gloves and HOTAS, though.

[NutLoose]

So it could slip over the little fella.... would make life interesting if ejecting... And what would the female pilot do? Mind you dat581, the original poster did say it was only a little unit and could be selected to vibrate. :E

[scoobydoc]

Pulse oximetry (ie measuring the amount of oxygen carried in the blood) has significant limitations and does not correlate very well to the amount of oxygen being delivered to the brain. Along with the problems of where to put the probe (gloves etc), other factors can significantly alter blood flow to the brain, hence oxygen delivery to the brain. Whilst it is better than nothing it is not the solution some people think it is. There have been incidents in the GA world where individuals have been falsely reasured by these devices.

[Milo Minderbinder]

"Along with the problems of where to put the probe"

Earlobe?
In the ear canal?
About as close to the brain as you'll get

[scoobydoc]

The blood supply to the earlobe does not represent the blood flow to the brain so is no good. The USAF are looking are ear canal probes but they are not in common use and probably have the same limitations as other probes.

[NutLoose]

Rectal :{:sad::E

Does it have to clip on to a extremity, could it not be done by say a stick on pad? Fascinating stuff... Surely the best place to have anything would be a sensor to measure oxygen supply at the mask that warns if the supply falls below a certain amount, after all by the time the reduction is measured in the blood, that is further along the timeline, one would have thought catching it earlier at the end of the supply line would be the way forward.

[Two's in]

Hmmmm.... employ a physiological oxygen detecting system or procure a $300M Fighter with an oxygen system that works - it's a tough call.

[LOAgent]

The F22 pilots have been wearing pulse oximeters for some time now. HOTAS, gloves and all.

[zondaracer]

So, there has been talk on here about these guys "jumping the chain of command" and whatnot. Here is my take, as a former officer in the USAF...
There is an inspector general process for these kinds of cases. Most likely, the IG process failed these two individuals. One of them was already undergoing disciplinary action, Letter of Reprimand in this case. An LOR can be career ending for an officer as it can lead to uncompetitiveness for promotion or even separation. He was also facing a Flight Evaluation Board (not good)

These gentlemen felt they had no other choice than to go public. So what was the fallout of appearing on 60 minutes? A Senate hearing was held yesterday by the Senate Armed Forces Committee.
F-22 pilot safety issues to go before Senate - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57429757/60-minutes-f-22-report-prompts-senate-hearing/)

No punishment for the two individuals under the Whistleblower protection law
Air Force: No punishment for F-22 whistleblowers Captain Josh Wilson and Major Jeremy Gordon - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57430437/air-force-no-punishment-for-f-22-whistleblowers-captain-josh-wilson-and-major-jeremy-gordon/?tag=mncol;lst;2)

At the Senate hearing Tuesday, lawmakers learned that the top brass of the Air Force has issued a directive that the two pilots who appeared, Captain Josh Wilson and Major Jeremy Gordon, should not be retaliated against.

This is significant because both men faced potential disciplinary action for choosing not to fly the jet over health concerns, and because proceedings have begun already against one of them, Captain Wilson.

When Massachusetts Senator Scott Brown asked General Janet Wolfenbarger to confirm there would be no retaliation against the two pilots, Wolfenbarger said "absolutely" not.

"There is clearly the whistleblower protection, the statute that protects those folks," Wolfenbarger elaborated, adding that she considered the two pilots whistleblowers. "Our chief and our secretary have made that understood in our Air Force."

[zondaracer]

Well in the senate hearing, General Wolfenberger acknowledged that they were whistle blowers.

We will see how this plays out.

OK465:
1. One pilot was facing an MEB and a reduction in pay
2. With an LOR, he was facing a possible discharge
3. Read #1 and 2 above
4. In my time in the service, there was no obligating folks to be happy. If folks weren't happy, the good leaders tried to find out what changes needed to be made to improve moral

[misd-agin]

Article on the grounding due to O2 problems -

USAF F-22s Stay Grounded Pending Oxygen System Probe (http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_07_18_2011_p35-347638.xml)


Article this week about the problem. The fact is they don't know what is going on but put the a/c back on flight status and had further incidents.

USAF Still Lacks (http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_05_07_2012_p31-454218.xml)

[NutLoose]

Latest



Defense Secretary Leon Panetta ordered Air Force today to restrict flights of new F-22 stealth fighters; problems with oxygen systems.
10:31am Tues May 15

[MightyGem]

From another forum:
Pentagon: Blame Tight Vests, Not Stealth Jets, for Choking Pilots | Danger Room | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f22-valve/)

[Two's in]

The mysterious engineering problem causing F-22 Raptor pilots to choke in their cockpits has been solved, the Pentagon says. And it’s not the nearly $400 million aircraft’s fault after all.

Sounds like the DoD are saying that ALSE compatability and integration is a separate activity from certifying the platform. An all too familar approach to "blamestorming" when someone has cocked up a multi-billion dollar procurement.

[SpazSinbad]

Brian, Early A-4s including the A4G used LOX [Liquid Oxygen] (Pure Oxygen Under Pressure). Dusty King demoed this story on the flight line after a first TA4G sortie. It was impressive. Some A4G pilots had a lingering cough worse than others (Ralph had a particularly bad response) especially to high G at low level. But as indicated a 'cough' usually fixed the problem. However after a long high altitude flight one could experience ear pain during and afterward as the excess oxygen leaked out of tissue to cause one to be constantly clearing one's ears (ou est ein buccaneer?). Youse could expect to wake at night at least once with ear pain to clear de ears. Anyhoo...

‘Where Are They Now? Paul Gillcrist’ by Barrett Tillman

Where Are They Now: Paul Gillcrist (http://www.tailhook.org/Gillcrist.htm)

Perils of Pure Oxygen Under Pressure
“...Another prominent influence in Paul's AirPac world was a female aviation physiologist at Alameda. He later learned that she was the first female aviation physiologist in the Navy. "A bunch of us were sitting in a briefing room awaiting the lecture on the use of oxygen equipment when this really attractive brunette walked in. We all sort of straightened up and paid attention. The young lady began the lecture by asking, 'How many of you smoke?' Several hands went up. Then, 'How many of you smoke while flying?' Some hands remained raised."

Without a further word, the physiologist strode to a console, inhaled deeply of 100 percent oxygen from a tank and produced a cigarette lighter. "This little gal blew a big breath, flicked the lighter and ignited a streak of flame right over our heads that seemed about six feet long," Paul recalls with a grin. Then she said, "That's why you don't smoke in the cockpit."

"Believe you me – she made her point! I thought, 'Hmmm... she's all right.'...”

There were sad stories of new USN A-4 pilots lighting up on cross countries to literally go down in flames (with cockpit filled with flames and smoke from the oxygen and any materials on fire).

Kiwis started with the LOX but then changed to a mixture of cabin air and oxygen (similar to Sea Venom system).

[BEagle]

A similar effect, irritiation of the alveolae after exposure to high levels of O2, particularly during air combat training, was prevalent in the early days of the Hunter. We were briefed about this during Ruddles and Vindaloo sessions at AMTC North Luffenham; it was know as 'Hunter Lung'.

[ORAC]

Air Force to Stealth Fighter Pilots: Get Used to Coughing Fits (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/02/stealth-pilots-coughing/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WiredDangerRoom+%28Wired%3A+Blog+-+Danger+Room%29&utm_content=Google+Reader)

The Air Force has some bad news for the pilots of its F-22 Raptor stealth fighters: Your planes are going to make you feel crappy and there’s not much anyone can do about it. And the message to the maintainers of the radar-evading jet is even more depressing. Any illness they feel from working around the Raptor is apparently all in their heads, according to the Air Force...............

[BEagle]

Does this F-22 condition affect pilot of similarly agile aircraft, such as the Eurofighter? Or does the EF have a better life support system, reducing the risk of 'Hunter Lung'?

[Courtney Mil]

It's a condition caused by using breathing air that's highly enriched with oxygen at increased pressure, especially when performing a g straining manoeuvre. Higher partial pressures of O2 can cause lung irritation on its own, but this is a slightly different mechanism and this sytem would not generate high enough pp of O2 for this to be a factor - on its own.

Think of it this way. If you take a deep breath and hold it, the oxygen in the alveoli in your lungs is absorbed into the blood. As some 80% of the air is nitrogen, which is not absorbed, there is still plenty of gas remaining to keep the lungs inflated. If you do the same with enriched air, the volume of gas absorbed is much greater, which causes significant deflation of the lung.

Under normal circumstances, much of the O2 that's absorbed is replaced by CO2, but doing a g straining manoeuvre means the increased pressure in the lungs stops the CO2 from leaving the blood so it does not replace the absorbed O2. Also the long breath hold involved give time for the lung to start to collapse.

In order to maintain inflation, your body senses the irritation and causes you to cough.