Get off that runway - quick !

[DaveReidUK]

(moved from Tech Log forum)

I've been reading a 4-page exhortation published jointly by NATS and Gatwick Airport, reminding pilots of the importance of vacating the runway expeditiously on landing and likewise not dawdling on takeoff.

It begs the question - are such campaigns necessary, and if so, do they work ? Do crews need reminding from time to time that (quote) "3 seconds lost per aircraft movement = 2 missed runway slots per hour" ?

Can anyone think of examples of similar awareness campaigns run by other airports, either in the UK or overseas ?

[missy]

Yes, Melbourne Australia.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/433743-melbourne-airport-teaches-pilots-airmanship.html

[Ufog]

Here in Copenhagen, the arrival ATIS tells the pilots: "After landing expedite vacating runway". That the pilots are informed about this, is one of the requirements for applying reduced seperation on final.

If it makes any difference on the time they spend on the runway, I don’t know.

[Talkdownman]

AD 2-EGLL-1 - 13 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-3F18D33EF4E62335C9CD491CB8ADA8A0/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGLL_en_2010-10-21.pdf):

Arrivals – Minimum Runway Occupancy Time
Pilots are reminded that rapid exit from the landing runway enables ATC to apply minimum spacing on final approach that will achieve maximum runway utilisation and will minimise the occurrence of 'go-arounds'.

[mad_jock]

And what are you told on the first day of command training.

Not be pressurised by ATC to expidite when you feel its unsafe.

Like a loft exercise when ATC (the sod in the back of the sim) tries to pressure you into taking an exit which would be tight if not dangerous.

The airports are putting out guidance which I think pilots in there very nature will be doing anyway. Our training states we have to put safety first over none safety requests from ATC.

I don't think its even the ATCO's that are driving it. Its some bean counter manager types who don't have a clue about operating an aircraft and just presume that the pilots are being difficult and or incompetent by not doing what they want to meet thier buisness plan. The farce in Bristol comes to mind when aircraft were going off the runway in the wet and the airport manager was heard to cry that its safe its safe the CAA says so. Thankfully some one with a bit of balls in EZ took the proper course of action and got things sorted.

Yes there are some that do take the piss like the dreaded Air France crossing the runway at MAN when your at 4 miles. But thats only my opinion maybe thier SOPs mean they can't leap like a scalded cat across the landing runway like other operators of that type of aircraft.

So the airports (you note I don't say ATC) are putting out guidance to pilots on operating which goes against our training. And I think most pilots can handle getting moaned at than have to fill out tons of paper work for an incident. I don't think the documentation produced or requests on the ATIS will make a blind bit of difference to be honest.

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, Melbourne Australia.

"Melbourne Airport" teaches pilots airmanship (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/433743-melbourne-airport-teaches-pilots-airmanship.html)


Thanks for the link, interesting reading. I can't locate a copy of the source document on the Net, do you by any chance have one ?

[DaveReidUK]

AD 2-EGLL-1 - 13 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-3F18D33EF4E62335C9CD491CB8ADA8A0/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGLL_en_2010-10-21.pdf):

Quote:
Arrivals – Minimum Runway Occupancy Time
Pilots are reminded that rapid exit from the landing runway enables ATC to apply minimum spacing on final approach that will achieve maximum runway utilisation and will minimise the occurrence of 'go-arounds'.
(http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-3F18D33EF4E62335C9CD491CB8ADA8A0/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGLL_en_2010-10-21.pdf)

Thanks, I note also the reference on the previous page to minimising runway occupancy on departure.

Incidentally the Singapore AIP contains the following sage advice:

"In the event the preceding aircraft cannot vacate the runway in time, it is the responsibility of the pilot-in-command of the succeeding aircraft to carry out a missed approach"

That's good to know :O

[Roffa]

mad_jock,

I don't think its even the ATCO's that are driving it. Its some bean counter manager types who don't have a clue about operating an aircraft and just presume that the pilots are being difficult and or incompetent by not doing what they want to meet thier buisness plan.

It's the airlines themselves that are driving it.

I'd quite happily do a minimum 4nm final approach spacing all day rather than 2.5nm, it would certainly do my blood pressure a lot of good, but if I did do that I can absolutely guarantee you that someone from Big Airways will be on the phone wanting to know the reason for the delays.

It's the airlines that demand the capacity, not ATC.

[radarman]

We've had two instances of pilots trying to expedite turnoff on to the taxyway at the runway mid-point. One burst two tyres, the second de-rotated so hard the nosewheel mountings transferred the shock to the fuselage and buckled frames. The aircraft was AOG for months being repaired by the manufacturer. More haste, less speed.

[mad_jock]

It's the airlines themselves that are driving it.

Still doesn't change my statement though does it :p its still some tosser in an office who hasn't a clue.

They can bitch,complain and write as many briefings as they like but...

"ya canny change the laws of physics"

And to be honest putting out a patronizing briefing is more likely to get a :mad: em attitude than get the result they desire. These days if you have even one incident on your record your chances of getting another job are greatly reduced even if you did everything correct as found out by the BA 777 Captain. If you were a pilot what would you do? Ignore it or run things to the ragged edge of whats possible never mind safe for some directors bonus.

[heavy_landing]

Personally, I can't see the problem with this.
It's surely just a 'gentle' reminder to remain on the runway for as short a time as possible; I will do my best, secondary to the safe operation of the aircraft.

[Crazy Voyager]

Any chance for a link to the document mentioned in the first post? :O

[Sir George Cayley]

Airbus are developing Brake to Vacate software - wonder why?

Sir George Cayley

[Lon More]

Written by some idiot in an office who maybe visited the TWR one sunny day 10 years ago I think.
The governing factor is what you think is safe, taking into account weather, runway state, aircraft type, even knowledge of the pilot.
When i was flying one of the first lessons was, "Never let the aircraft go somewhere that your mind wasn't fifteen seconds ago." It served me better than a mountain of paperwork