JCA/JSF Basing - RAF Lossiemouth

[ATFQ]

Defence Airfields Review: 17 Nov 2005: House of Commons debates (TheyWorkForYou.com) (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2005-11-17b.1119.0&s=jca+lossiemouth#g1119.1)

"The JCA basing study has been very thorough, including the widespread consultation of local authorities, and it considered a number of locations in two stages. On 10 March this year, I wrote to hon. Members affected by the outcome of the first stage, notifying them that RNAS Yeovilton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNAS_Yeovilton), RAF Kinloss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Kinloss) and RAF Wittering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Wittering) were discounted from further consideration. The study then concentrated on five locations—RAF Cottesmore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Cottesmore) in Rutland, RAF Leeming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Leeming) in North Yorkshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Yorkshire), RAF Lossiemouth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Lossiemouth) in Moray, RAF Marham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Marham) in Norfolk and RAF St. Mawgan in Cornwall. After careful consideration of the options, I have decided that the initial base for the JCA will be RAF Lossiemouth, currently home to the Tornado GR4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_GR4), as it offers the most operationally satisfactory and cost-effective solution."

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

And nothing has changed in this respect, even after the outcome of SDSR, so good news for the Lossiemouth contingent.

But not great news for anyone who may be involved in the JSF prog in the coming years.

[Diablo Rouge]

The world has changed since 2005 and all bets are off. if I was pro-Lossie I would not take any comfort from a report that was written in 2005. To be quite honest, I would not take any comfort from anything that predates SDR or indeed the next 6 months!

[Ronald Reagan]

Was that not the plan for F-35B and also planned by Labour?
Now we 'plan' to get F-35C and have a Conservative Government could the original plan not change?

I am sure at the time I read one reason Lossie was selected was due to the noise of the B variant?

[Easy Street]

And nothing has changed in this respect, even after the outcome of SDSRAu contraire...

1) The STOVL F-35B has been found to be quieter than expected
2) Besides, we are no longer getting the F-35B; the F-35C is presumably quieter still
3) We are not going to get anything like the 150 airframes previously assumed

With infrastructure decisions due to be announced in the next few months, I would be very surprised if the JCA basing study has not been hastily re-done!

PS It always struck me as odd that Lossie was chosen for "noise" reasons; with the large-ish town of Lossiemouth next door, plus Gordonstoun school just outside the wire, there are plenty of people to annoy. As frequently referred to on this site, Marham is probably more remote in terms of population within a few miles' radius!

[ORAC]

And nothing has changed in this respect, even after the outcome of SDSR, so good news for the Lossiemouth contingent. Except, perhaps, that this statement was from the previous Labour minister.

I have decided that the initial base for the JCA will be RAF Lossiemouth, currently home to the Tornado GR4, as it offers the most operationally satisfactory and cost-effective solution." Adam Ingram (Minister of State (Armed Forces), Ministry of Defence; East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow, Labour)

The current Minister of State for the Armed Forces is Nick Harvey, (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/People/Ministers/MinisterOfStateForTheArmedForces.htm) who's seat is in North Devon.

Now, remind me, in which county is RNAS Yeovilton?

I think the case for the reduced number of F-35cs being based near the carrier home port just became much stronger......... :hmm:

[Daysleeper]

Now, remind me, in which county is RNAS Yeovilton

Somerset. :confused:

[ORAC]

South-West is South-West. (p.s. He also wants to keep Chivenor open..)

[Pontius Navigator]

And of course there are the Portland ranges (?) and lots (?) more ships to work with even when shore-based. I am sure that Freddie will be at sea even when the carrier isn't.

I stand to be corrected but I got the distinct impression that HMS Fulmar was a billet to house a carrier air group when disembraked and all the jack Tars went off on leave. The ratings mess had all the charm of a 50s council block.

Certainly it was well placed for the jets to embark as the CVAs transitted north to meet the Soviet threat. As ORAC says, south makes more sense today.

[vecvechookattack]

That ties in nicely with the Wildcat moving to RNAS Culdrose leaving a gap wide enough to fit the JSF into...Perfick

[Tallsar]

Several points.....

While the F35B has turned out to be quieter it still noisier than anything going when hovering, so the (as yet non public) plan was always to triple glaze up to quite a distance from whichever base the ac ended up on.....yes and that included all property in Lossie.......Acts of Parliament etc...though there had been a good management and process precedent set when Tonka moved to Lossie in the early 90s so that certainly added to Lossie's case, as did JMC and LFA actvity/proximity. Still noise not a primary issue now...its F35C or is it...check out new EU environmental regs.......

Seems to me the former SHAR facility at Yeovilton is a good starting point for a much smaller F35 fleet....and much financial and military logic in pushing the Wildcat to Culdrose alongside its Merlin counterpart. There is much space there after all! What SH if any, goes into Yeovilton is also an issue. The future standard CTF would seem to be a sqn of 35s plus and a BH/SH combo...so Yeovilton co-residency has much going for it. Yeovilton also now has excellent residential facilties so not too much investment required to make it right. The SW is a ConDem haven so the politics suggest it should happen too.

Sadly, despite pleasant personal memories, military and financial logic favours the demise of Lossie....but politics is never simple.....suppose it depends on how much of the Army can be accommodated up there.

[Always a Sapper]

Sadly, despite pleasant personal memories, military and financial logic favours the demise of Lossie....but politics is never simple.....suppose it depends on how much of the Army can be accommodated up there.

Other than the grouse, possibly the scotch (disgusting stuff, bit like drinking brake fluid imho) and game fishing why on earth would any self respecting squaddie want to be posted to a back water like Lossie?

The place makes Oakhampton Camp seem like Oxford Street on a friday night...

[Tallsar]

Lots of wonderful beaches to keep fit on and expend all that pent up aggression!!! Sadly I fear ..personal preference and desirability will have little to do with it - more the modern real estate. That said, there is more to it than many casual observers give it credit for....and Joannas in Elgin has always had its merits!!! :hmm::yuk::eek: Moray has always been like Marmite......I was one who liked it.....but there are many who never will.

[PanMan69]

I agree that the Army will show little interest in RAF Lossiemouth, or Kinloss for that matter, when there are locations much closer to army training areas being vacated by the RAF in England. They might just about be persuaded to move into Leuchars, but who knows.

Alongside all the recent upgrades to its infrastructure, one of the big advantages that Lossiemouth does have is its immediate access to uncongested airspace. In today's increasingly safety conscious world (and rightly so), a guaranteed safe flying training environment must be a real bonus.

[Pontius Navigator]

Moray has always been like Marmite......I was one who liked it.....but there are many who never will.

What you cannot get away from, for a large part of the English air force Scotland is a foreign place. It takes a day to drive out and a day to drive back. It costs more to holiday from there.

They can also be very clanish. Mrs PN worked at the Raigmore. She had two patients from the Western Isles who would speak not a word of English with the nurses until they found Mrs PN was English. They made an exception and would speak with her but not with the Scots nurses.

Or one day when Mrs PN opened the door:

"Good day to you Mistress, we're from the kirk."

Good morning.

"Ah, you're English, but you'll have married a Scot?"

No, he's English too.

"Good day to you Mistress, the Episcopalian church is . . . "

A rite warm welcome that was.

[Shack37]

They can also be very clanish. Mrs PN worked at the Raigmore. She had two patients from the Western Isles who would speak not a word of English with the nurses until they found Mrs PN was English. They made an exception and would speak with her but not with the Scots nurses.


Pinch of salt anyone?

[Ivan Rogov]

If the Army are so anti Northern Scotland who are those chaps in CS95 at Fort George?

I hear they might be interested in new real estate, one carefull owner, choice of two, plenty of room for running around, lots of runway lights to smash in the LR, etc.

[just another jocky]

Los will stay open, with XV(R) + 1 x FL GR4 sqn. Typhoons will move from Leu to Los and eventually Los will be Tiffie base. Kinloss runway will be maintained as an RLG/div for Los. RAF will leave Leu.

Marham becomes F35 hub, replacing GR4 as it retires.

Simples, but JMO. :}

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

PN,

Mrs D'Sorderlee works at Raigmore. Although she is English, she does not appear to have the same level of bigotry levelled towards her as Mrs PN had; in fact, she thoroughly enjoys working there. On behalf of my countrymen - for what it's worth - I offer Mrs PN my apologies.

Duncs:ok:

[Not_a_boffin]

JAJ wrote :

Los will stay open, with XV(R) + 1 x FL GR4 sqn. Typhoons will move from Leu to Los and eventually Los will be Tiffie base. Kinloss runway will be maintained as an RLG/div for Los. RAF will leave Leu.

Marham becomes F35 hub, replacing GR4 as it retires.

Simples, but JMO.

BBC News - RAF Marham base for Joint Strike Fighter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-21925225)


Uncanny prescience......

[Courtney Mil]

And then we'll have to move all those Tornadoes and Typhoons somewhere south of the border after the independence vote, leaving the Lossie area a bit quiet.

[Bastardeux]

the Lightning Two squadron based at RAF Marham would be a joint RAF and Royal Navy force

How have we found ourselves in a position where the RAF and RN can only field one measly squadron combined?????

[glad rag]

And how much does the POS cost per unit Bastardeux?

Not that we're going to have any.................4 days to "end of jsf Friday" apparently :hmm:

[alwayslookingup]

CM. If the vote on 18.09.14 is to negotiate the terms of Independence from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, will England, Wales and Northern Ireland all of a sudden lose any strategic interest in the North Sea/North Atlantic?

I've thought of an additional source of income if Scotland were to be independent. We cold always sign a memo of understanding to rent space at Lossie, Kinloss or Macrihanish to Russia. Would save the Bears an awful lot of flying time to Cuba.

[Courtney Mil]

If the vote on 18.09.14 is to negotiate the terms of Independence from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, will England, Wales and Northern Ireland all of a sudden lose any strategic interest in the North Sea/North Atlantic?

First, I agree with your emphasis on the word "IF".

Second, clearly 'no'. But that doesn't mean it's a given that the UK would continue to base its assets in a foreign country - for all sorts of reasons, not the least being economics. One of the issues that NATO members will be very wary of is an independednt Scotland sheltering under the NATO defence umbrella for free. They will want to see that Scotland is contributing its fair share and I'm not convinced that the SNP can just assume that the UK would automatically retain the current basing plan effectively providing Scotland with free Air Defence.

Now, what I can see is this. The UK would still like to have a northern AD base for QRA, as well as for other reasons, and it may well be that a deal could be struck that is mutually beneficial to both parties. That may mean permanently based forces, but could equally be a QRA detatchment as well as dets of other aircraft to take advantage of the airspace, ranges and LFAs. I wonder if Scotland would have to pay for the QRA cover or if the UK would have to pay to use the bases?

Regardless of that, I can imagine lot of pressure to base the planned Lossie squadrons in the UK so that local economies could benefit from their presence. Anyway, wouldn't Lossie be full of the Scottish Air Force squadrons?

Courtney :ok:

[NorthernSID]

Or alternatively as part of the 'treaty' negotiations concerning independence, apply the 'Sovereign Base Area' solution as in Cyprus & keep

- The Moray peninsular including RAF Lossie & Kinloss - always need a convienient diversion &/or bolthole

- Faslane

- Garvie Island

- Leuchars for the golf

Anything else ?

:)

[alwayslookingup]

Courtney, one of the more balanced posts I've seen from you on the matter of the Independence debate, (until the last sentence, but I'll let that one go for now).

Some semantics to comment on, however. In particular, your use of the term "UK" to denote the rump if Scotland becomes independent. I quote below Article 1 of the Act of Union 1707. From it you will see the term "Great Britain" comes from the Union of England and Scotland. If there is no longer a Union then it would seem to follow that Great Britain as an entity would cease to exist. You then have the Kingdom (Queendom?) of England united with the Principality of Wales and the six Counties of Northern Ireland. Erm, doesn't quite have the same ring. It takes Scotland to put the Great in Great Britain!

"That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint and the Crosses of St Andrew and St George be conjoined in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit and used in all Flags Banners Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land" (my emphasis)

[alwayslookingup]

NorthernSID, are you suggesting England, Wales and Northern Ireland might actually need bits of Scotland. I thought we were all such welfare scrounging, anti English, narrow minded, whingeing, tartan clad louts that you'd all be well rid of us.

[Party Animal]

Anyway, wouldn't Lossie be full of the Scottish Air Force squadrons?




Courtney - bit optimistic there me old china ;)

With a total of 15 aircraft inherited from the RAF, they might be sensible in calling it a single sqn. As opposed to the current RAF mentality of creating 5 sqns of 3 aircraft each (to allow career progression for the FJ boys) plus an additional 3 reserve sqns named in place of Ops, Eng and Admin Wgs!

[just another jocky]

Uncanny prescience......

I've had a lot said about me in the past.....that was never one of them! :}

[chopper2004]

At least M follows L in the alphabet :ok: whereas W and Y are right at the bottom of the alphabet :cool::ugh:

There is some logic to the basing :)

@alwayslookup

Don't joke about leasing out the northern bases to Russia

2nd Bomb Wing delegation visits Russia (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123313284)

:cool::p

[Courtney Mil]

B-52s and Tu-95s on the same base. Who would have thought it? Does this means we're all best friends forever now, or is this whole concept as weird as I think it is?

[GreenKnight121]

We are just continuing an old tradition...

Factsheets : Barksdale Information (http://www.barksdale.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=4409)
The base turned its attention from combat to more peaceful pursuits when two B-52s, a KC-10 and their crews visited Dyagilevo Air Base, Russia[/URL], in March 1992. In May 1992, Barksdale hosted a return visit by two Russian TU-95 "Bear" bombers, an An-124 "Condor" transport and 58 Russian airmen.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barksdale_Air_Force_Base#cite_note-6"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) The Russians stayed for six days, seeing a slice of America and participating in Strategic Air Command's final Bombing and Navigation Competition awards symposium. The Russians visited again in August 1994, bringing a Tu-95 "Bear" and an Il-78 aerial tanker.

Barksdale began a friendship with Ukrainian Air Force airmen later in 1994, when a B-52 and KC-10 visited Poltava Air Base, Ukraine.
Feature - Serving up good conversations for 60 years (http://www.barksdale.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?id=123220237)
In May 1992, Barksdale hosted a visit by two Russian Tu-95 "Bear" bombers, an An-124 "Condor" transport and 58 Russian Airmen.

"I think the Russians were some of my favorite foreign visitors," Charles said. "We used to talk about many things, but they would always joke about American alcohol not being strong enough. Well, I gave them a double shot of 151 rum, and I don't believe they've had an issue with my drinks since."

[alwayslookingup]

Chopper2004, who said I was joking about leasing options for four extremely strategic airfields, five if we count Stornoway? Not sure as I write if Saxa Vord is still operational (aware it's not an airfield, but is/was pretty strategic).

If we're independent we'll have to find some way of making ends meet "when the oil runs out (!!)".

We'll never manage with just the fishing, agriculture, tourism, power generation (renewables, hydro electric, nuclear), whisky and oil decommissioning work, not to mention the intellectual property, a first world education system and several world class Universities churning out some of the best qualified, motivated and employable graduates in the world. No, it'd never do to go it alone.

Funny, though, how Norway manages it with most of the above.:D

[Courtney Mil]

What about ship-building?

[chopper2004]

@alwayslookingup

Whats Scotland gonna turn out to be .....Cuba of the North then? :) :ugh::cool:
Embargoed whiskey? :):p

All taking a leaf out of Dale Browns DREAMLAND series of novels, in Armageddon whereby the Royal Brunei Air Force crews are being trained up to fly a pair of modified B-52 supplied by the DoD to counter the balance of airpower the countries in SE Asia..so instead of a handful of F-35 based up there, what you expecting a pair of Blackjacks and Bears aptly named Rob Roy? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Ah is that why at every tv commercial break we get this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kUZNQASL_8

more worrying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDous6FZNv0

and then

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbctoBGog7I

Its almost like the tourist board are subversively with dark forces trying to control folks minds into thinking that Scotland,. Wales and NI have devolved and the only thing left is England.

All my mates and family abroad especially in the USA, think Scotland and Wales are different nations!

Cheers

[Courtney Mil]

Embargoed whiskey

Unlikey that they'd embargo whiskey from Scotland. Whisky, maybe, but I doubt it!

Anyhow, there has been a change in the basing plan. Lossie was the original site chosen, as I mentioned before. So something changed at some stage.

[BEagle]

"I think the Russians were some of my favorite foreign visitors," Charles said. "We used to talk about many things, but they would always joke about American alcohol not being strong enough. Well, I gave them a double shot of 151 rum, and I don't believe they've had an issue with my drinks since."

Is Charles still at Barksdale? A wonderful chap - met him during Giant Voice '79 and he was a legend even then. I hope he's in well-deserved retirement now.

Double shot of 151 rum - no doubt the food and drink police would have something to say about that!

[alwayslookingup]

Chopper2004, Erm, Scotland and Wales have devolved. Legacy of Tony Blair, 1997 Referendum, Parliaments established in 1999. People of both countries chose Devolution because it's what they wanted. One of my favourite clips:-

SNP's Winnie Ewing opens the Scottish Parliament - YouTube

Nice ads, though, especially the Jock one.

But back to initial thread, yes, the decision on location of JSF has changed. Marham must have access to a whole lot of quality training and LFAs that Lossie doesn't.

[Bismark]

Anyhow, there has been a change in the basing plan. Lossie was the original site chosen, as I mentioned before. So something changed at some stage.

Yes it did. I suspect shivers went through the minds of the top of the RAF shop with the idea of the RN returning to Lossie with the JSF - presumably with the RN arguing that as it will be a Joint Force they should have a turn at commanding RNAS Lossie! After all they built the Wardroom.

[passpartout]

There is no ward room at Lossiemouth. That grotty old dump was knocked down 10 years ago (give or take a week or two)

[melmothtw]

doesn't mean it's a given that the UK would continue to base its assets in a foreign country


Why break the habit of a lifetime?

[alwayslookingup]

melmothtw, agreed, and for the good old U S of A as well.

[Easy Street]

Anyhow, there has been a change in the basing plan. Lossie was the original site chosen, as I mentioned before. So something changed at some stage.

The decision to locate 3 Typhoon squadrons at Lossiemouth was the change. With the best will in the world, there is no way you could stuff one or 2 JSF squadrons, plus an OCU in there as well.

Marham must have access to a whole lot of quality training and LFAs that Lossie doesn't.

I don't imagine that LF is in the JSF CONOPs... and I suspect that access to LFAs is fairly low on the list of priorities. Marham has good access to the D323 series for regular training with aircraft from Coningsby and Lakenheath, and can also reach out to the Dutch and Belgian training areas to work with their F-16s (and eventually F-35s).

[alwayslookingup]

Easy Street, good answer. Thanks, I can live with that.

[Biggus]

Wasn't the choice of Lossie as a base also made in the days when we planned to buy 130 odd JSF, as opposed to the 50 odd we will buy now?

I also thought Lossie was chosen because of how noisy JSF is supposed to be. Lossie providing the quickest route for taking the noise out over the sea....

[Courtney Mil]

Both of those statements are indeed correct, Biggus. :ok:

[Wrathmonk]

how noisy JSF is

Be interesting to see how the local MPs at Marham deal with the complaints from the NIMBYs seeing how hard they have lobbied recently in order to get the F35 into Marham. Think we may see some "poacher turned gamekeeper" action going on (assuming, of course, the current incumbents will still be MPs after the next election [and seeing they are all Tories this is not a given!]);)

[melmothtw]

Wasn't the choice of Lossie as a base also made in the days when we planned to buy 130 odd JSF, as opposed to the 50 odd we will buy now?

The 48 already announced is the initial buy only. The offical line still is 138 aircraft (at least according to LM's production plan), but you can read into that what you like.

[Frostchamber]

The official MOD position is still that the number will end up in three figures (as stated recently to the Defence Cttee) but the official line seems to be that uptakes beyond the initial 48 will be considered in the context of Typhoon OSD - and in any event not as part of the current 10 year planning cycle.

[Biggus]

Whilst I accept what you're saying, given how broke we are, and that the price per airframe is apparently going up, I think that practically, we will be lucky to get 48!! :(

Time will tell.

[Easy Street]

The whole "it's noisy, so let's put it at Lossie" argument was flawed, IMHO. Those who have ever lived or stayed in Lossie town (actually quite a large place) will know that it is badly affected by noise from the airfield, particularly when Rwy 23 is in use. The circuit patterns are all modified to account for local avoidances, including Gordonstoun School; the Rwy 05 circuit is best described as a nav-ex. F-35B would have been even louder than a Tornado, particularly when conducting STOVL ops.

Marham, by contrast, is comparatively isolated, as befits all the 'el Adem with grass' banter from the old folk. The actual Marham village is dislocated from the airfield by a mile or so, away from the circuit direction. There are a couple of villages just outside the circuit to the SE, and there's Fincham on the 06 approach, but much further away from the threshold than Lossie town is from the runway there. I think the noise impact will be a lot less than it would be at Lossie.

What the aircraft do once up-and-away is going to be pretty irrelevant in noise terms; the notion of 'exporting the noise quickly to the sea' assumes that the aircraft will be at low altitude which, generally speaking, they won't be.

[Courtney Mil]

Flawed or not, that was what the planners went for initially. They were aware of the noise issues and had even costed the requirement to install sound-proffing, tripple glazing, etc over a wide area. Doesn't help much when you want to sit in your back garden in the summer - assuming we ever have one.

Regardless of the noise the locals always protest when there's a whisper of closing a base.

[Easy Street]

the locals always protest when there's a whisper of closing a base.And there you have the root of it - the answer was 'keep Lossie open' from the start. The only reason that F-35 isn't going there any more is that they found another way to keep it open, by relocating the Leuchars Typhoon wing, which removed the need to 'fudge' the factors of noise, airspace etc, and resulting in what would have been the correct F-35 basing decision the first time around.

In my experience, most RAF airfields tend to have last-landing times of midnight or so for routine night flying... not Lossie though, which is earlier to avoid annoying the locals. Given the northern latitude it makes maintenance of night currency impossible over the summer (a dispensation gets granted). It amuses me that on the one hand, the locals protest loudly about possible base closure, and on the other they are treated with kid gloves lest a bit of night flying upset them... given the alleged extent of their dependence on the base, surely we could push them a bit more and get the equivalent amount of flying time as other bases? :E

[OutlawPete]

With the increase in support that the Scottish independence campaign seems to have (heaven help us!) right now, what would it actually mean for the RAF in the long run if it comes off?
Would the F35 still go ahead given that there are still cuts being made?
A post-independence UK could only be worse off. It's often said here how bad things will be for Scotland but what will the overall effect be on what is left of the RAF given the cuts of recent years.


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[alwayslookingup]

OutlawPete, ref your use of the term "UK" for what's left if the vote is for Independence, I refer you to my Post #27. If Scotland votes for Independence there will be no more a United Kingdom of Great Britain.

[Finningley Boy]

A slight thread drift here, what has my curiosity burning away like an oil well fire is this; if the vote on 18th September 2014 goes against independence, just what will Big Eck do then? Will his political career and clout both wither on the vine? Will he explode from the pressure of an almighty vessel bursting raging sulk? Or will he retire to Lichtenstein?

Or, as I suspect, he won't accept the result, accuse Cameron of running a dirty tricks campaign and demand a re-vote?!?!?!

FB:)

[OutlawPete]

FB. Salmonds in a win-win situation. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if deep down he'd be more than happy with a "no" vote.

alwayslookingup. Re post #27. I'm sure that with regards to the original union agreement that is correct. Can't see Wales going it alone post Scottish independence though, they wouldn't last 5 minutes.

The original post raises the issue of F35 basing which we now know will not be RAF Lossiemouth. If Scottish independence goes ahead there will be even less cash in the pot and with the present Westminster government, defence is likely to suffer even more. It makes it more likely that F35, given its cost, will be cancelled.


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[Rovertime]

I don't imagine that LF is in the JSF CONOPs

Will there still be a need for LF for day 2+, or will suppression of IADS on day 1 mean its unlikely LF will be required?

[Easy Street]

Will there still be a need for LF for day 2+, or will suppression of IADS on day 1 mean its unlikely LF will be required?

Regardless of the effectiveness of IADS suppression on 'night 1', the F-35's approach to dealing with IADS renders LF effectively redundant. If you strip away LF's usefulness in avoiding IADS, it's fuel-inefficient, increases vulnerability to low-tech threats (AAA / MANPADS), constrains the effectiveness of unpowered weapons such as PW4, makes reconnaissance and laser designation more difficult.... etc!

If F-35 LF is needed at all, it would be for things like shows-of-force in support of ground troops or visual aiming of weapons at low-level beneath cloud [which, in the fixed-wing CAS world at least, is already being steadily replaced by the delivery of GPS-guided bombs from medium-level against coordinates provided by the FAC; no LF required]. Shows of force and low-level weaponry are not particularly 'core' F-35 business, which is why I believe LF will be a long way down the training priorities list.

[Dan Gerous]

Re the complaints from locals. With the impending demise of the SAR fleet, I guess the old ploy of sending the SAR cab up and down the coastline when the noise complaints piled up, will no longer be possible.

[david parry]

Makes me smile, about the noise levels at Lossiemouth regarding the F35 !! Nobody complained when the V Bombers and B52s used to land, and take off on 23;)