Flying over London city?

[Paul H]

After watching a video on youtube of a microlight flying over London city airport + dome + Canary Wharf [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbegJpGGOno], I questioned how this was possible. Upon further investigation it turns out (according to wikipedia):

"Operations are restricted to 06:30 to 22:00 Monday to Friday, 06:30 to 12:30 on Saturdays and 12:30 to 22:00 on Sundays. The closure of the airport between 12.30 on Saturday and 12.30 on Sunday gives residents some relief from noise"

I take it from the this that the CAS over EGLC is clear of commercial traffic from 12.30 on Saturday to 12.30 on Sunday.

How would you go about flying through/over this area? Would you speak to EGLL or Farnborough? I messaged the guy from the video but he never responded.
Thanks in advance.

[18greens]

You can go and do it any time you like. Call Thames radar , ask for a transit. Bridge to the dome, north to south down the lea valley. In a twin you can go as far as vauxhall bridge.

Great fun but theres no landing options so prepare for a big conversation with the CAA about glide clear IF you have an engine failure.

Big secret is you have to sound like you know what you're talking about on the radio other wise they bounce you off.

If you want help the guys at Biggin used to do the trip all the time. Pop into cabair and do a trail lesson to check it out.

[Roffa]

Call Thames radar , ask for a transit.

You sure about that?

Big secret is you have to sound like you know what you're talking about on the radio other wise they bounce you off.

Expect to be bounced!

[Fuji Abound]

I use to go that way often and on up the Lea Valley - it was never a problem and a clearance never refused.

Doubt spread about the legality and I found myself only going that way in a twin but again a transit was never refused.

In more recent times I dont have the call for that particular trip so times change and I guess so does the attitude of Thames.

[Roffa]

Nothing to do with Thames' attitude.

More to do with an apparent lack of knowledge of quite a long time change to controlling authorities in that area at the times such flights are likely to be flown.

I assume though anyone flying in the area would do a brief and pick it up rather than just rely on this forum.

[Fuji Abound]

Roffa

Yes, indeed a very sound observation.

[007helicopter]

Call Thames radar

In fact not Thames Radar, it has changed to a Heathrow control zone and I have not been refused on 3-4 occasions.

[DLT1939]

EGLC is much busier these days so VFR transit clearances are harder to come by but still available when traffic permits, although you need to be a twin to comply with Rule 5. Call Thames on 132.7 sounding as though you know where you want to go. The London Eye is a good landmark to aim for to keep you clear of the Heathrow zone. Thames is the correct frequency (I used it to get a clearance Monday last week) unless you want to enter the Heathrow zone, then use Heathrow Special on 125.62 - the two frequencies are usually combined when EGLC is shut.

[007helicopter]

The London Eye is a good landmark to aim for

Are you sure you dont mean the o2 (Millenium Dome)

[Roffa]

Thames is the correct frequency (I used it to get a clearance Monday last week)

Thames is not the correct frequency*.

Just because you got a clearance on that frequency doesn't necessarily mean you were correct in using it. They may have just decided that at that particular time it was less trouble to work you than to point out the error and send you off to the correct frequency.

Did you do a NOTAM brief before you flew? If you did, why didn't you follow what this particular NOTAM states (assuming it was during the relevant times which will encompass the majority of those transiting that area)...

Q) EGTT/QAECH/IV/NBO/AE/000/025/5130N00003E007
A) EGLC B) FROM: 10/09/07 06:32C) TO: PERM
E) LONDON CITY CONTROL ZONE/CONTROL AREA: HEATHROW SPECIAL VFR RADAR IS DELEGATED AS PERM CTL AUTH, 0600-1930 (SUMMER), 0700-2030 (WINTER) TRANSIT ACFT ARE TO CTC HEATHROW RADAR ON 125.625MHZ.

* Unless out with the times in the NOTAM above.

[soaringhigh650]

I take it from the this that the CAS over EGLC is clear of commercial traffic from 12.30 on Saturday to 12.30 on Sunday.


Probably will be clear of traffic landing and departing that airport during that time but there may still be various private or commercial traffic (such as news reporting, medical, police or flight training, etc.) going through it.

Remember to bear in mind the glide clear rule. The Thames and Lea Valley lakes apparently don't count.

[IO540]

Has the debate about SE flight via LCY ever been settled?

There have been countless forum postings about CAA prosecutions, but the CAA prosecutions data does not show any of them.... ;) Maybe they do the trial in camera?

I did the flight once (in 2003; Thames Radar enthusiastically offered me a transit so I accepted) and then I read all those rumours so avoided it after that.

[stickandrudderman]

I have done it several times in a SEP, I was never refused but it is at least two years since I last asked....

[Cows getting bigger]

Not knowing the area and legalities aside, is it sensible in a SEP? :hmm:

[IO540]

It is no more or no less sensible than flying to/from many airports, where the final approach tracks have housing estates underneath ;)

It is actually better because there is a lot of water there. Pilot forum rumours have been along the lines of the CAA having declared that this water does not count. But, ditching is a reasonable option for the (very rare) case of a failure on a properly operated and maintained aircraft.

People do this (http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/?action=view&current=Untitled-5.jpg) or this (http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/?action=view&current=alps-2010.jpg) kind of thing in SE aircraft... (both my pics). A N-S transit via LCY is a lot less bad and the "exposure" is a few minutes at most.

Whether the transit is worth the bother is another matter. The only transit in the south which I tend to ask for is E-W via SAM, because I often fly fairly high there and want to remain VMC on top. The LGW/LHR zones are easier to just fly round.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Is there any point in reminding everyone that Paul H's original Post related to a weight-shift Microlight, by definition, flying on a BMAA Permit?

[007helicopter]

Whether the transit is worth the bother is another matter

I find not that much bother, very often granted and yes most definatley worth it on a nice clear day the view in my opinion is fantastic and a privelage.

[MrAverage]

Don't forget the permanent Notam forbidding SE inside controlled airspace between City and Heathrow.....................

[Talkdownman]

Don't forget the permanent Notam forbidding SE inside controlled airspace between City and Heathrow
If you mean the AIP entry at ENR 1-1-4-2 (http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-E8CEBAD1DF044E7560319291E1FB723F/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/ENR/EG_ENR_1_1_en_2010-10-21.pdf) regarding Single-Engine Fixed Wing Aircraft Over Central London that is only applicable to Non-Standard Flights and Enhanced Non-Standard Flights.

[whatnameso]

Does the following apply to all flights or just enhanced/non standard as mentioned?

Single-Engine Fixed Wing Aircraft Over Central London
1.7.1 With the exception of the Northolt RMA (including for Runway 07 the portion of the London Control Zone north of the offset
centre-line) (see AD 2-EGWU AD 2.17) and the Local Flying Areas at Denham and Brooklands (see AD 2-EGLL AD 2.22), NSF or
ENSF permissions will not be granted to single-engine fixed wing aircraft requesting to operate within those parts of the London and
London City Control Zones between a North-South line extending through the LON VOR and a North-South line extending through the
LCY NDB. In accordance with a directive from the CAA Directorate of Airspace Policy, applications which fall within the above criteria
will be refused upon application to the NSF Co-ordinator due to the inability of such aircraft, in the view of the CAA, to be able to comply
with the ANO Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 - Low Flying (Rule 5d).

[Talkdownman]

Does the following apply to all flights or just enhanced/non standard as mentioned?
Your quotation applies to Non-Standard Flights and Enhanced Non-Standard Flights. There is no reference to Normal Flights. It does, however, include a view from the CAA which, perhaps, should not be ignored by pilots wishing to make normal flights in the area defined.

NSF or ENSF permissions will not be granted to single-engine fixed wing aircraft... between a North-South line extending through the LON VOR and a North-South line extending through the LCY NDB...... applications which fall within the above criteria will be refused......due to the inability of such aircraft, in the view of the CAA, to be able to comply with the ....... Low Flying (Rule 5d).

[soaringhigh650]

Can someone please define what is a Normal Flight, a Non-Standard Flight and an Enhanced Non-Standard Flight?

[Roffa]

It's all in the UK AIP, available on line.