How to fly?

[Scouse_Phil]

Ladies and Gents

I can't make a decsion!!

I want to fly...God do I want to fly! But I can't decide how! I think I want to go down the Heli route. As a kid I always thought about flying helicopters and made myself my own collective, cyclic and pedals (I was a kid and in hindsight it wasnt quite as impressive as I thought back then!!).

However, it is so expensive!! I rang Helicentre Liverpool and asked about a PPL (H) - £18,000 was the price!

However, having enquired with Ravenair Liverpool the price for a PPL (A) is only around £7,500!

Now I know what you're thinking...the PPL (A) is for fixed wing and not heli's you plonker! But I know that!

My question is should I fork out the £18,000 to complete the PPL (H) or would it be cheaper to do PPL (A) and then do a PPL (H)? I've heard that you can get some time taken into account if you've already achieved PPL (A) and that you onky have to sit some of the theory exams. Is this true or is this the most ridiculous idea in the world?

Also, any info on the above companies would be gratefully received. I have thought of going to OFT to do my PPL (A) or Bristow to do my PPL (H)!

HELP!!

Oh, and I know this is also stupid bearing in mind the current economic climate!

[Fake Sealion]

Lets assume you are looking to fly for leisure only.

Its a question of what do you want to do with the PPL once you have it.

Unless you anticipate you will need to land and take off in confined areas not available to a fixed wing aircraft, there is no reason to consider helicopters, unless you have significant financial resources.

Entry level helos are approx 3X the cost to learn in and hire/own than their equivalent 2 or 4 seat 100Kts cruise fixed wing counterparts.

Its that simple really

Take a look at hourly hire rates - apply your annual budget and work out what you want to do.

[Intercepted]

You can also go down the really "inexpensive" route to learn to fly autogyros. If you look at the latest models you will find enclosed 2 seaters where you are protected from both weather and wind.

[gpn01]

Or go for an even less expensive route and try gliding. Probably best value per £/hr as you'll learn far more than just how to aim and fly on a height/heading. You can progress onto competition racing, aerobatics, landing in fields, mountain flying, ridge running, wave soaring...so much to try!

[cats_five]

Second GPN. There are also microlights, three-axis and flex wing. I believe they are a cheap way of learning to fly power.

[herman the crab]

Each to their own but I think you have probably already decided!

But take a trial lesson in each - FW and RW and see which appeals...

Also you may save money by travelling and I would guess they are minimum prices.

HTC

[Fuji Abound]

1. Decide which you can really afford and whether you intend to fly for the long term. If you think you want to fly for the long term forget about the initial cost - this is just the starter for ten. To fly a "nice" fixed wing for a reasonable number of hours a year reckon on between £5K and £10K every year you fly and at least double that number for a helicopter.

2. If a helicopter is still within your budget book a trial lesson in each or better still cost share a flight or two with owners / operators at your local flying club. It will give you the flavour and the chance to chat to them about why they fly.

3 You will probably discover that fixed wing have some advantages - they can be a lot quicker, on the whole they carry load better and they can fly when the weather is poor. Helis can do all of those things but the expense of achieving them is significantly greater or the approach different. For example you can of course buy a four seater helicopter but the cost will be substantial. You can fly under the weather very low level in a "cheap" helicopter but that is not the way to go any distance, or you can fly in the weather but expect to pay huge bucks for the privilige of a helicopter capable of doing so.

On the other hand helicopters open up the possibility of landing almost anywhere (if you have the landowners permission) - very few fixed wing can do that! However in reality not that many helicopter pilots actually do this unless it is to a few regular and necessary destiantions.

4. Take everything into account. Your finances, your intentions, why you want to fly and whether you will use the mission capability of a helicopter and you are more than half way to answering your question.

If you just love the idea of flying a helicopter for the challenge and cost doesnt matter forget everyting I have said and go enjoy. :) In fact in that case while you can - do both!!

[rans6andrew]

been there, done that got the T shirt (and the nice stiff silver licence holder!)

My observations.

Helicopters:

1) Challenging/impossible until you relax and then the best toy in the box.

2) Expensive to run, expensive to buy. Not much that you can do to reduce maintenance (eg DIY servicing etc)

3) If you have enough space to operate from home a good choice. If you have to go to an airfield to start out and if you are going to another airfield go fixed wing.

4) If you are going to be doing hire and fly then you will need to be able to plan well ahead. The flying schools cannot generally free up a helicopter at the drop of a hat. They will need you to book 10 days+ before the hire date. Weather will change, work commitments will change, you may be too tired by the time the day comes round etc. You will not fly very often.

5) When I did it there was very little social side, very few fly ins. I suspect that most of the private owners use their helicopters in connection with their businesses and not for "social, domestic and pleasure" activity.

6) You can go directly to a nice hotel and have sunday lunch but ......... I never did.

7) Big investment to get a licence.

Fixed wing:

a) Challenging to fly (actually to land) in the beginning.

b) Starting prices for fixed wing aircraft start at a very few £k and work up.

c) If you choose carefully you can operate from as little as 200 metres but this is bigger than most gardens so it is still off to an airfield...

d) There will be a greater choice of hire and fly sources but the pre booking timescales will be the same.

e) The social side. If you break away from the flying schools and their spamcans you will find a much more active social scene. Many of the homebuilt types have clubs which will organise flying events and outings. Some even do annual dinners etc. Probably the most active will be the microlight fraternity with an annual fly in (Spamfield - google it) and many BBQs in grass airfields all over the country. And they go abroad with a minimum of paperwork to permit it.

f) Much of the maintenance of a homebuilt aircraft can be done by the owner (with appropriate inspection and sign off) thus keeping running costs down.

g) Aircraft ownership gives the best availability, if you wake up and the day looks good then you go flying.

So, I started out determined to get a helicopter licence, a nice R22Beta rating, and got it. Then I buzzed about for a few years, just getting enough hours to keep current, often having to pay for a check flight before being allowed to hire and fly away. I could never quite stretch to owning a machine. The small amount of flying I did was just not spontaneous enough and there was little to do in terms of events.

Eventually I let it lapse.

A couple of years later I still felt the need to go flying but I needed something more spontaneous and with a purpose beyond "being up there". I bought a cheap 3 axis microlight and converted onto it. Best thing I ever did. There is 2 microlight clubs near to my home so that means 2 club nights a month (flying reports, event news, a few beers etc) and plenty fly ins to go to. I get to fly up to 70 hours a year for little more than a family car running costs. As a club we go to somewhere abroad (usually France) every year for a week of touring around and sight seeing.

A helicopter is still the best toy in the box, but there is only so much need to go backwards and sideways in the air. In the end the microlight/home built aircraft ( or gliding, or ballooning, or powered parachuting or para-motoring.....) scene has so much more to offer to someone who wants to fly for pleasure.

Good luck.

Rans6.....

[Jan Olieslagers]

How to fly? Your instructor will tell you. Most begin with "straight and level".

[Pilot DAR]

I will add to the foregoing that for the first few hours, it really won't matter much which type of aircraft you're flying, you're just getting used to being airborne, and navigationa around with new references, and instrument to think about. From that perspective, you may as well be flying something less costly.

Once you are comfortable with navigation, and how to interact with all o the instruments and radios, then you can change type, and you won't be spending three times the rate by the hour to be in the air just to learn those common basics.

Also consider what you will do once you have a license. Airplanes are much more available to be rented than helicopters. As has been said, there are not that many places you can land a helicopter that you can't land an airplane. When you find those places, you may find that permission, insurance, or shear wisdom prevents you landing there anyway.

With 5500 hours over thirty years of fixed wing flying, a few years back I took helicopter instruction. I dragged out the training over a few years, because, as a student pilot, I could fly solo most wherever I wanted to fly. Once I earned my license, I could not rent a helicopter for insurance reasons. Thus, though I have done an additional 60 hours of helicopter flying (in some breathtaking places), I have not flown a helicopter solo since I got my license.

Unless you're going to buy your own helicopter, a helicopter PPL is not of a lot of use.

That having been said, there are just so many beautiful things you can see from a helicopter, that you'll never see close up from a plane....

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Aircraft/IMG_1366.jpg

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Aircraft/h9.jpg


http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Aircraft/h8.jpg

[rans6andrew]

Pilot DAR said "That having been said, there are just so many beautiful things you can see from a helicopter, that you'll never see close up from a plane...."

If you see some of these from a plane they may be the last things that you ever see!

Go careful up there. Oh , and never let a flying machine take you somewhere that your brain hasn't been to 5 minutes before.

Andrew.

[Fake Sealion]

So Scouse Phil - there you have it! The collective (ouch!) wisdom of some Ppruners for you to ponder upon.

Some excellent advise methinks.

Unless someone can say to the contrary, the point about the difficulty in hiring a helo when you want it and staying current post license is central to the case against IMHO. This leads to lack of spontaneous flying enjoyment and surely thats what any flying SHOULD be about?

I can vouch for taking a long look at modern 3 axis microlights - unless you really really need more than 2 seats!

If you really want to fly helos regularly - try the Euro Millions roll over on Friday:ok:

Keep us posted?

[daisy120]

Righto..here we go. Don't touch the UK..expensive and anal..over regulated and full of politik. You need to fly first then rotavate the crap once you have the ticket. Suggest you go to NZ. Look up flight line or eagle flight in Ardmore. They operate R22/R44/SH300CB. go for the latter, R22 is like going to clown school to get a degree in acting. Do the RADA thing and fly the real aeroplane. NZ is full of opportunity, particularly with networking to get the turbine time up...assuming you want to go pro. That said, Mike Becker at Morichador(sp!!) in Queensland also worth a go. They will pop you into a mustering programme once you have the CPl or network you into other viables...including PNG!! BOL.:cool:

[Whirlygig]

That said, Mike Becker at Morichador(sp!!) in Queensland also worth a go. They will pop you into a mustering programme once you have the CPl or network you into other viables...including PNG!!
Anyone thinking this would do well to do a search on Rotorheads for Mike Becker ... on the Australian training thread ....

Suffice to say, I would take Daisy's advice with a pinch of salt.

Cheers

Whirls

[whirlwind]

Scouse Phil.... I've been flying commercially and privately in the UK (and abroad) for 40 years, and most of it on helicopters. If you want my 'pennorth, it's go fixed wing first, then rotary.

You may be a natural pilot, but just consider that you may, like most of us, have to work really hard at it (or worse, be struggling to cope). Get the basics under your belt first - and plank wings are cheap in comparison to rotary. If you are successful great, go for rotary. If you are brilliant, you don't need to complete the PPL A and could transfer allegiance sooner.

However, there's more to flying than just waggling a stick around. After you've learnt how to fly a heavier than air machine, you have to learn how to operate it. That's what sorts out the men from the boys (ahem, or girls/ladies [Whirls]:)). As an instructor, I'm afraid my opinion of many rotary PPLs is low.... not their fault, just that they either don't have the aptitude, or they don't have the money to stay on top of it all.

Good luck!
WW

[24Carrot]

Almost nobody seems to have answered your first question directly!

My question is should I fork out the £18,000 to complete the PPL (H) or would it be cheaper to do PPL (A) and then do a PPL (H)? I've heard that you can get some time taken into account if you've already achieved PPL (A) and that you onky have to sit some of the theory exams. Is this true or is this the most ridiculous idea in the world?I did PPL(A) then PPL(H) and there are two credits:

1) Normally the PPL(H) requires a minimum 45H tuition. Holding a PPL(A) reduces this minimum by 10% of the aeroplane PIC hours, though an absolute of 39H still applies. For most people this is irrelevant as hardly anybody does the PPL(H) in 45H anyway.

2) Having passed the 7 ground exams for PPL(A), you need only re-sit two more (helicopter specific) exams for the PPL(H):
A/c General & Principles of Flight
Flight Performance and Planning.

If you want to fly helicopters, doing a PPL(A) first is very unlikely to save you money. The "hard" part of Rotary Flight is close to the ground: hovering, air-taxi, picking-up and setting-down, etc. Fixed Wing experience will not help you there.

£18K sounds like a lot for a PPL(H), if they are quoting the minimum 45H. Assuming you are light enough for an R22, you should be able to get instruction for £300/H or less. On the other hand, in reality you will probably take longer than 45H.

As others have said, the most important thing is to work out why you want to fly. A lot of PPL's get the licence and then stop flying soon after. At the very least do a trial lesson in each type.

Ending on a more humorous note: in the rotary trial lesson, ask the FI to demonstrate a "downwind quick-stop". After that, if helicopters do not own your soul, you will have to accept that you have no soul, and are doomed to fly a plank!

[tggzzz]

As other have noted, consider gliding because of the cost, challenge, and most importantly fun. You'll do exciting things e.g.
aerobatics before going solo (spinning at "low" altitude; yes I know it isn't strictly a requirement before going solo, but it is usual)
formation flying (if being aerotowed)
gaggle flying (e.g. thermalling with other gliders)
low-level flying (flying along ridges looking at sheeps' eyballs)
keeping a good lookout (especially when ridge soaring with other gliders!)
understanding the expression "flying by the seat of your pants" isn't just an abstract expression
and there's none of this tedious "flying straight and level" stuff

[gingernut]

Book a dual paragliding trial, see what you think of heights and motion, and take it from there.:)

[Scouse_Phil]

Thank you for your replies so far.

Gliding is something I considered sometime back and will be something I look into again.

As for Microlights - well they didn't even cross my mind but now i'm doing some proper research into that.

Paragliding - not for me I don't think!

Having said all that, I still can't get helicopters out of my head! Whilst doing some of my research I came across gyrocopters, anyone got any experience of them/any opinions?

Oh, I don't know! A number of trial lessons ahead I guess!

[Janu]

fixed-wing for sure!