Samsung 7" tablet - any good for PDFs?

[IO540]

Has anybody tried this as a pure PDF browser i.e. for approach plates?

It is an OK size for the job. I had a play with it in a shop but could not view any PDFs.

The Ipad is too big and too restricted.

[Genghis the Engineer]

(1) No I haven't, but I'm impressed with the new android tablets that you can buy now for £70+

(2) For pdfs, wouldn't you be better with an ebook reader such as a Kindle or Sony reader - similarly priced, much longer battery life, and much more readable in bright sunlight.

I have used a Sony Reader in the air and it works well, although its pdf handling can be a bit variable and I've not actually tried it with approach plates. I should.

G

[IO540]

The Sonys are too small for me unless I wear reading glasses :) When you get to 50 you will know what I mean :)

The Kindle DX is very nice but is limited by its flat directory structure which prevents a lot of files being stored and retrieved. It would be great with a custom-written file browser, and some support for directories (folders in micro$oft-speak), but it looks like Amazon have tied it down so much that nobody has bothered to get inside it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The top end Sony has a decent size screen, but also has the kindle's irritating flat directory structure.

G

[Romeo Tango]

IMHO the kindle screen is too small for CAA published approaches ... but maybe I'm getting too old.

The charts puplished by gCAP Main Page (http://www.gcap.co.uk) are better and they do one big pdf - but the kindle does not know about pdf table of contents. It maybe better as a .mob file.

Bill

[IO540]

There are two issues here.

The Kindle DX is big enough for Jepp-size (A5) approach plates 1:1.

The free "AIP" plates were mostly designed for A4 and when reduced to the A5 size (at which Jepp, Aerad etc plates are published, and usually printed) they are a bit too small to read. Some of the text is especially small. I did a lot of messing around with this a while ago and concluded that 1024 pixels (along the long axis of the plate) is the minimum at which the AIP plates are legible - reading glasses or not.

Jepps are readable fine at 800 pixels, so the usual old 800x600 tablets worked fine.

The Kindle is a lot faster than most e-book readers, so when somebody produces a decent file browser, and does some sort of directory structure for it (it does run unix after all) it will be a winner.

In the meantime, "proper computers" will rule the roost for rapid PDF display.

[S-Works]

In the meantime, "proper computers" will rule the roost for rapid PDF display.

Or an iPad.......

[AN2 Driver]

IO540,

I am waiting here for a tablet I ordered from China for about $200 which has a 7 inch screen, Android or Win CE on one platform, GPS and so on. Guy I know got one and is totally happy, sais it's way better than the Samsung and obviously cheaper. And as it runs both Android and WinCE it also will run Pocket FMS if needed. The reader it had was very decent and he sais it runs for 7 hours plus without charging.

I'll report back once I've got mine.

Best regards
AN2 Driver

[IO540]

It's a topic worth watching, because everybody and their dog has seen Apple sell 10000000 Ipads in the past 2 weeks and they want a slice of the action, and even a 1% slice is a nice production run in what has always been a very tough market - tablets never really caught on; partly due to antiquated technologies compared to state of the art laptops of the same era.

I am sure no windoze tablet will match the slick finger interface of the Ipad but for aviation it doesn't need to. For aviation, you want a dedicated and simple interface. The Jepp Flitedeck product is one example - that's a crappy, bug-ridden and totally counter-intuitive implementation but the layout is right: some big buttons around the periphery of the screen and that's it.

Also, to update a tablet used for approach plates, you need to be able to dump (sync) a few GB to it fairly fast - over ethernet.

I tested the Viliv (http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/ls800-v-x70ex/?action=view&current=ls800-x70ex-low_angle_sunlight.jpg) tablet recently but it ran too hot and had a poor screen. An interesting pointer for the future though.

[bookworm]

The free "AIP" plates were mostly designed for A4 and when reduced to the A5 size (at which Jepp, Aerad etc plates are published, and usually printed) they are a bit too small to read. Some of the text is especially small. I did a lot of messing around with this a while ago and concluded that 1024 pixels (along the long axis of the plate) is the minimum at which the AIP plates are legible - reading glasses or not.

The Kindle DX is 1200x824, which is pretty much indistinguishable from your 1024 pixels. The problem is that the pixel density is sufficiently high that the physical size is small, which means that no matter how high the resolution, you need good close vision to read an originally A4 plate like the UK AIP ones.

The flat directory structure is indeed a drawback.

[IO540]

I think the issue with the AIP plates is that they are PDFs which means the text rendering is basically dumb (postscript-defined outlines filled with pixels). You need excellent res to see small text.

The Jepp data was designed for the poor 800x600 tablets of the era, and the data is vector based. Not just the graphics but also the text, which renders clearly at 800x600, whereas if you print a Jepp plate to a PDF and then view the PDF on an 800x600 display, it is a lot less clear (though still just usable).

The Kindle DX would be great if it supported directories.

[421C]

The Ipad is too big and too restricted
I am with you in that I actively don't want an Ipad. I don't like the Apple DRM model, I need to carry a laptop and the iPad can't replace that, and I find odd restrictions I hear about on the iPad annoying.

I considered a dedicated device (like an e-book reader, the Jepp SolidFX product) or another tablet. However, having tried the iPad, the interface and screen are so superb with the Jepp App it is no contest. It's just brilliant for plates.

I also thought it a bit big, but was surprised that it would fit both on my A5 kneeboard and on a Yoke clip for plates (the clip is an ASA aftermarket product that attaches around the back of the yoke) The iPad neatly fits between the two 'handles' of the yoke whilst clipped to the clip thing.

It will also charge off a 12v car lighter adapter available on Amazon for about £2.99

brgds
421C

[dublinpilot]

I am waiting here for a tablet I ordered from China for about $200 which has a 7 inch screen, Android or Win CE on one platform, GPS and so on. Guy I know got one and is totally happy, sais it's way better than the Samsung and obviously cheaper. And as it runs both Android and WinCE it also will run Pocket FMS if needed. The reader it had was very decent and he sais it runs for 7 hours plus without charging.

I'll report back once I've got mine.



I too would be interested to hear what you think of it...especially in terms of the screen quality, and how readable it is outdoors.

dp

[IO540]

I have probably written this before but there is a tablet (http://www.sumotechnologies.co.uk/english/hardware/st312_overview.php) which is the absolute business, sunlight readable, good battery life, WinXP so everything runs on it, but it is £2k.

I saw it at Friedrichshafen where somebody was trying to flog them for 3500 euros :)

I just don't want to pay that much - despite having paid nearly £2k for the LS800 back in 2005.

[Flap40]

Our local Tesco has the Samsung in stock and either the demo unit was iffy or the screen is the cheapest that Samsung could find. Max brightness was about the same as an iPhone on about 60%.

Deffo' not sunlight readable.

[Ultranomad]

Just tried a couple of A5 approach plates in PDF format on a Nook bookreader by Barnes & Noble (a 6-inch 800x600 e-ink screen). A full page is readable with a lot of strain; however, when zoomed to fit width, it is quite clear. Obviously, this kind of screen only gets better in bright sunlight. The zoom function is not available in the stock PDF viewer, but Nook runs Android and is easily hackable. In fact, it also has a miniPCI slot (occupied by the modem in the 3G version), which could in principle accommodate a GPS receiver...

[IO540]

Can an Android unit do dial-up networking (as needed for a Hayes-compatible satellite phone)? Windoze does this easily.

Just read a review of the Ipad in the US "Flying" mag. The thing overheated and shut down just as they were flying the final approach :) I have had the same reports from other pilots too. The other thing is that it doesn't support the other stuff I need to do and it would be yet another box (+ charger) to cart around.

[AN2 Driver]

I'll let you guys know when it gets here eventually.

[TR24]

Where did you order it from?

Thanks

[bubo]

reopening this - I spend last night playing with Samsung 7'' tablet and an PDF Jepp approach plate was nearly readable. Looks I am getting captured. I do not want to go into ipad (too big, too expansive) and Samsung 8.9 seems to be the right compromise - not too big, but big enough to display the plate. Anybody with experience on 8.9 tablets?

[IanPZ]

I just read this thread, and I'm quite surprised by all the comments about the kindle. Just so you know, whilst it doesn't support a tiered directory structure, once you have uploaded PDFs, you can assign them to one or more collections.

That effectively gives you one level directory, but more interestingly, allows you to group a single pdf in multiple collections, so that you can have all your aerodrome plates in one collection, all your info (plates and otherwise) about a particular location in another collection, etc.

Its very similar to the label system in google, albeit only at one level. Doesn't that go a long way to dealing with the need, or am i missing something?

[peterh337]

It would, provided that you are not dealing with lots of files.

If you are dealing with lots of files then you need to make sure

- there are no duplicate filenames

- you have an easy means of generating the index tags

I don't have a Kindle DX (though we did buy a Pocketbook Pro 902 for someone and that does seem to support a normal directory structure) but I believe that those outfits which sell packaged aero data like the European AIPs for the Kindle are processing the PDFs with some kind of automated script to add the Kindle tags to them, so they can be searched for.

If OTOH you have directory support then you don't need any of that. You just create directories for country / airport / whatever and then all you need is a decent file browser. That is the kind of thing which you get very nicely with Goodreader on the Ipad, and I imagine similar solutions for Android.

I think the Kindle DX is stupidly crippled but then I guess Amazon know their market :)

[IanPZ]

Fair comment peter. You are right that the kindle isn't really designed for this kind of thing, and amazon do want to limit what it does. I do wonder about why there isn't a device with a better colour screen. In the sailing world, its quite normal to get chart plotters with easily sunlight readable displays (albeit quite expensive).

[Julian]

I have been using a Dell Insirpion Duo after writing off the iPad 2 as overpriced and doesnt really do a lot.

It is sort half way between a tablet and laptopas does not have the full laptop processing power but still pretty good. It is sometimes a bit slow when running my Jeppensen Flite Planner. Also get WiFi, can plus in USB, use internet, etc

The main thing is you can flip the screen around and it becomes a touch screen tablet, it can take a bit of getting used to but once I did it was fine.

Cost me £200 off the Dell refurbished site but in shops think they are about £450, however the refurb one that arrived was like new and still had all the plastic wrap on it.

J.

[bookworm]

I just read this thread, and I'm quite surprised by all the comments about the kindle. Just so you know, whilst it doesn't support a tiered directory structure, once you have uploaded PDFs, you can assign them to one or more collections.
...
Its very similar to the label system in google, albeit only at one level. Doesn't that go a long way to dealing with the need, or am i missing something?

The problem is the "once you have uploaded" bit. What you really want in such a device is the ability to transfer the current set of plates efficiently. You don't want to have to check what has changed and then upload the changed plates -- that's almost as painful as using paper. That means that the structure has to transfer to the device with the files -- unless you want to organise them into collections afresh every update.

EuroFPL came up with a sensible compromise -- its plates are grouped into files by airport and each PDF file has an index, also available as a .pdr Kindle index.