Ryanair Standbys

[DirectDIKAS]

Is anyone else getting really pissed off with the amount of standbys currently? With the way its going its time to get a second job just to bring in a few quid to cover the mortgage :bored:

[VJW]

Pressman, don't be silly....

They're sending loads of guys out of base at the moment, I've just done two weeks out of base without requesting it.

Plenty of bases are downsizing for the winter, the bases I went to, had the crews downsized before the aircraft in question stopped operating.

Re sbys, I had 3 in my roster this week and flew 2, and they were the first in 3 months. Last month as FO I did 100 hrs, this month 60 with a week off.

I think it's lower in the UK, but it always is, too many people want to be in UK, and that's the price you pay my friend!

VJW

[OutsideCAS]

Can you guys not buy the roster you want ??! :E very surprised O'Leary hasn't sorted that out yet.

[g1344304]

If any of you want lots of hours I'll be happy to swap my southern italian base for a uk one anytime

[reamer]

Yes, I'm getting lots of standbys which is great.
That's the advantage of being a fully compliant tax and social contribution payer. I still get paid.
The advantage that the contractors have is that they get paid better when they do fly.
Can't have it all.

[ei-flyer]

Do what I used to - base somewhere busy, fly home and live in my UK place on days off. Best of both worlds and always have a tan (in my case) :ok:

Now based in Ireland (not FR)... I don't have a tan anymore...

[UK Viking]

It is not only the FO's having more SB's, I finally got the base that I wanted this year but since April I have been send out of base almost 30% of the time (Contract says EXPECT about 20%)and now I am getting more and more SB's, in a few weeks even 3 in a row. If this continues I see no other way but looking elsewhere even though it is far away, mortgage etc. has to be paid.

It would be appreciated to have some kind of minimum confirmed hours from BRK pr. year, just to be able to make some kind of a budget. Another thing is, I am often told that BRK pilots earn more than FR pilots ?

I can only speak for my self, and for the time being I do get a net pay about the same as my fellow colleges in Rayanair after having paid pension and short time loss of license semilar to what they get, based on about 850 hours a year and with the current exhange rate !!
As Ryanair states, if I don't like to be here I am free to leave, fact is I like my job a lot, my colleges and the equiptment are top quality, sad the pay does'nt match up anymore.

[widered]

When are we going to realise the the brookfield contract sucks people need to stand uo to the bullies,Terms and conditions are constantly degrading and they will keep on doing so till we stand up to it.
There is no security in the contract they do what they like,They make people pay ridiculous money for a type rating then when it comes to work your lucky if you get 40 hours in the winter.
JOIN REPA.ORG stand up for our rights the more of us stand up the easier it is for everyone!!!!

[Mikehotel152]

I am getting more and more SB's, in a few weeks even 3 in a row.

Yeah. my roster for October included two weeks where I had 1 day's flying and 4 standbys! That's why I queried things with crewdock and that's why they decided to send me out of base. The irony is that I would have happily have flown from my own base, saving the company 20e extra per hour, but they had already rostered someone from out of base to take my flying.

The reality is that pay at Ryanair is not particularly good when you factor in the unpaid months off, the winter standbys and the lack of pension. It is, however, a good way to build hours in a JAR25 aircraft. The management know this and so do we.

MH152

[TheGlide]

Mike hotel you hit the nail on the head there.. just build up the hours and go.
But wouldnt it be nice if we all got togetheir and joined a group that has pilots interests at heart specifically our own,Then maybe we can protect our 5 4 and stop base closures like MRS,get rid of the ridiculous brookfield situation who are meant to be contracters yet they dont even choose there own hours they work!nopay for stbys ,they have to use certain accountants Ppaying for type rating ,Paying for recurrent training twice a year,no duty time built into roster for positioning the list goes on...The next step will be 7 months on 5 months off contract..
3 billion in the bank dividends for the share holders yet the pilots the most skilled in the company we are still just numbers on a balance sheet and nothing else.
I dont know about you lot but I would like Ryanair to be a career airline at the moment its not.
That wont change unless we stand togetheir....

[zerotohero]

I on the other hand am on the higher rate old BRK contract and still rostered for 4 and 5 days flying, theres no math too it all, just works out to an average number at the end of the year, just don't spend all the good months money on hookers and you will be fine.

[captplaystation]

To sleep, perchance to dream.

TheGlide
The action (or more accurately inaction) of the last 10yrs would suggest that your noble ideals will never progress beyond a dream.

More solidarity, and willingness to stand together for a common cause,would be found in a brothel, more resolve to hold firm on prices too ! :ok:

If you really believe that will EVER happen, better to leave now, dissilusioned, but not yet bitter.

Every man for himself, was, is , & regretably always will be, the rallying call for you bunch. Not that the rest of the industry is a whole lot more fraternal mind you. :=

[gorillit]

Capt PS, completely correct!!

It's the whole 'divide and conquer' scheme!! It's apparent in everyday operations, some people cutting block time and some adding it, all for their own benefit, however stupid their reasoning behind it is!!

People in this airline will NEVER group together for the good of the masses because it actually means being bothered about colleagues and the job (instead of arse covering and looking after yourself), something that's filtered out at the top of the chain!!

Glide
I couldn't think of many things worse than spending my whole career at FR, this place is soul destroying, especially when you have to fly with idiots who have never flown for a different airline and have no idea how it can actually be done!

Personally I cant wait for a route out!!

[widered]

@ Gorlit
I couldn't think of many things worse than spending my whole career at FR, this place is soul destroying, especially when you have to fly with idiots who have never flown for a different airline and have no idea how it can actually be done!

I always find these sort of comments amusing especially from people in the Airline.
The reality is there is people standing up to the company, would you like a list of situations. I would classify you as someone who is not willing to contribute to the unionisation of the airline as worse.
What makes you any different from them if you wont show them the way from your extensive experience at other airlines.You would rather jump ship than contribute anything.
If change doesnt come it will be because people like you have nothing but contempt for you work mates.

[gorillit]

@ Widered

Couldn't agree more, I don't care anymore, I've tried to do things but nobody wants to hear it!!

I don't have contempt for my colleagues, I feel it's a choice that each of us makes, staying or going, agreeing or disagreeing! I was merely saying that I find it frustrating when somebody has a go at me during work because I don't accept FR as the be-all and end-all that they view it as!

I can understand your sarcastic tones about my 'vast experience.' The sad truth is that my limited experience still gives me more understanding on how things can be done compared to a captain with more experience who only wants to cheat the system for their own gain!!

I hope it does change but I hope I've moved on before it comes in because I can't see it happening for a while!!
:ugh:

[nick14]

Uk based FO doing 4 flights in November on Brookfield contract and wondering how I'm going to pay my bills!

I suppose it might suit the young free and single but the prospect of a base move or another winter like last fills me with dread.

I'd love a salary and a bit of security don't know about the rest of you?

Nick

[Sky Goose]

Here here Nick, same up here in Scandinavia, 4 days work in November.

The December paycheck is going to be interesting, thanks for a bumper xmas FR ! :suspect:
ps. 5 new cadets started in the last few weeks, just as the reduced winter schedule kicked in, nothing against these cadets, but wtf ?

better get cracking on that EK app....

[McBruce]

Every years the same, the signs are always present, the memos looking for pilots to take unpaid leave etc...

Historically I always find the first winter month to be the worst, then it picks up a little, its been the same the past 2 winters by my experience.

[clunk1001]

Hi Nick14, SkyGoose and McBruce,

Are you guys on 5/4, and working at a foreign base miles from home? If so and you only fly 4 days in a month, are you on standby for rest of the month? Or are you home?

Just wanted to check if 4 days working meant more time at home, or if it meant more time sitting around miles from home on standby.

Cheers
Clunk

[thebeast]

lolol good one

unless its annual leave then ofcourse its sitting around miles from home on standby.

Take up a new (cheap) hobby!

[escapeeRYR]

Same procedure as last year. Of course it makes a difference whether you`re sitting at home or in wonderful Kaunas. But the agony and frustration of being left out of pocket stays the same. Thanks J.D :mad:

[Sky Goose]

Hey clunk

5/4 at home, so could be worse, but still blows

[wakesus]

I'm doing just over 70 hours this month, only a couple of standbys at the moment. Did just over 800 hours in 12 months...

I'm thinking it varies a lot between FOs, but I seem to have been lucky thus far.

UK based.

[YYZ]

The recent increase in stbys aside, we all work about the same hours per year.
So calculate what you can expect once the winter schedule kicks in & spread out your finances?

10.5 months to cover 700 hours per year (worst case) work out how much you should have per moth to play with and bobs your uncle?

BPK contracts are not rocket science, you know what you get per hour and you know what you can expect to work over a twelve month period.

I know this time of year is tough but it really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone?

[zerotohero]

Agree

I have had a good year too be fair but forward planning for the winter months makes sense, wish I had done it and not been too the Ti@@y bar as much on days off :ok:

Been wondering about the hours situation too lately as there seems to be a lot of fresh faced wet behind the ears 20year old cadets in the base lately, maybe I am getting old now but they look like they should be playing in the park still rather than flying a 70ton jet! :eek:

Still only 2 standbys rostered this month so far so ill keep my head below the wall for now. :}

[VJW]

Hi

Couldn't agree more with the last two posts.

I did 100 hrs last month of which 60 where out of base (not that I requested it). Those that choose to blow 10000 euro gross in one month are simply naive in my opinion. Course every month isn't like this, but generally I do nearly 800 hrs a year just like every other FO in my base, and as has been mentioned above, simply divide by 12 and that's what you live off each month.

VJW

[McBruce]

I'm on a 5/4 roster and based at my 1st choice, although I only been put here in the past few months after spending a few years elsewhere. I'm on A/L atm, best time to pick it imo ;)

[in my last airline]

I guess the Summer to Winter schedule makes a difference to the amount of SBY's but the most impacting factor would be the 200+ cadets that have come on-line for next summers deliveries. The good (even great) news is that after next summer there will only be limited newbies coming on stream due to no new a/c.... YIPEE! Then, as O'Leary would love to see, everyone will be maxed out again hitting nearly 900hrs and there will be no upgrades except for normal attrition etc.
Trust me, he hates to see pilots doing less than 18 hrs work/week!

[DirectDIKAS]

Yeah but he aslo doesnt give a sh1t anymore as most are on brookfield so if they only do 4 days a month (I know a guy at my base who has 2 days flying in Nov) he pays them for 4 days, he has soo got brookfielders where he wants them, "stock 'em up and sure if we loike dont need dem dey can just sit around our network at their inconvenience and it costs me now't, Jaysus pure genious"

This situation just makes you puke:yuk:

[Wellington Bomber]

Reap what you sow

[dire straits]

:DZerotohero, off topic her but youre funny talking bout fresh wet behind ears youngsters all the time you are just 32 yourself-hahaha.

[zerotohero]

Its a fair comment, but 32 compaired to 20 years old is a bigger world away than 12 years my senior to 44, i swear some of the guys have not even started shaving yet!

[TimLay007]

Does anyone based in Charleroi as FO could advise me about the work load during winter.
I 'd like to join this base and i am wondering what i may expect.
Cheers

To reassure you guys, i know cadets joining soon, who are closer 30years old than 20...

[RAT 5]

Just curious how a 'self-employed' person can be legitimately rostered for SBY duty away from home for no pay? Is this because RYR deem you have to work a 5 day block and can have no more than 4 days off in 9? Beats every definition of self-employed I've heard of.

[TimLay007]

Thank you !

[Johnny Tightlips]

Standbys can be put to good use too, like filling in the Aer Lingus application formhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Anyway I'm a FO based in MAD with just over 500 on type, get one or two standbys per week and 60-65 hours per month. Needless to say I'd rather be based at home and take a few hours less per month but I don't see that happening for a while- if everhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif. Oh well back to the Aer Lingus application.....

[jimsmitty01]

Guys chill out, its November! (who the :mad: goes on holiday in Nov??), personally I am just glad that I am not on a part time summer contract like the guys at Jet2 and Easy.

My roster for Dec is looking up already. I have 3 Canary Island trips in one week, so a month of doing bugger all and then what looks like a reasonable Dec so far.

I have the 5 BRK days off in Dec and Jan plus a month off to follow. So obviously I have saved up over the summer and autumn, hence am looking ok financially this winter. I admit it is easier for me as I don't have children or a mortgage to pay off, but I did buy an engagement ring last month! Anyways as a contractor this is the mentality you MUST have, gotta save for the low season.

As for jumping ship, well I don't think the grass is that much greener. Terms and conditions will be better for sure, but overall pay and roster? I doubt it. If I leave it will be because I want to change base. And as we know thats bloody difficult here at FR!

Best of luck to everyone this winter, but I am pretty confident November will be the worst of it.

Jim

[Dovregubben]

Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA - APPLICATION FIRST OFFICERS (http://norwegian.easycruit.com/vacancy/87563/12113?iso=no)

Rock steady 5-4 roster, 177 working days and a very decent collective agreement.

:cool:

[Happy_Days]

I am not on a part time summer contract like the guys at Jet2 and Easy.

I'm flying nearer 100 hours than 50 hours in December with EJ, so hardly part time!

[DirectDIKAS]

It just gets worse, for next week my total flying is 2 days doing 2 sector routes and thats it for the week and my week is 9 days long. I might add the sectors in question all have an airborne time of around 45 minutes so total flight time for the week is 3 hours. How are we meant to live on that? Ive never known it quite this dreadful. Surely this is not sustainable as the company force people to leave as they effectively have no salary. This model cannot continue indefinately, certainly we'll all have to grin and bear it this winter but surely from next summer onwards its gotta change. If they keep to this model over time theyll implode. Ive always wanted to make it work at FR and have given it my best but enoughs enough, theyre really making it unworkable can they really not see this.......Please : I dont want any :mad: saying "Reap what you sow" DDA

[veeOne99]

Same here, 2 days flying next week. However, I save up during the some months when it's 80-100 hours so that during the winter they can fly me less and it's not a problem. I don't really understand why it's such a problem.

Who wants to be flying in the sh&t weather anyway. Snow, delays, flying into places in the middle of nowhere on minimas.

[lospilotos]

Like a Christmas miracle the today´s published roster did not evaporate any of my planned flights for the next week. But as the previous poster said, the only way of coping with this is to look at it on a yearly basis rather than month by month. You do have to save some of that nice Euros you get on a 90-100 hour month to even out the likes of November.

Of course, in our base, getting 5 new F/Os in one go, with a lot of line training on top of that does not help when the flights are cut by 25% during winter.

Expect 600 hours/yr, 650 if you are lucky, and plan your expenses accordingly.

[DirectDIKAS]

I know what your saying guys and I agree and have a reserve that Im having to rely on to get through, I just didnt expect the winter months to be this dire and my reserve is going a lot faster than I was expecting, I mean 3 hours flying for a 9 day period, aint a lot is it? Its not even worth paying the yearly car parking charge anymore, pay for the summer then just pay as you go on the rare days that you do fly :} ....which in turn will probably cancel out the money earnt from the days flying :ooh:

[directmisbi]

I have one thing to say to you guys. Get the hell out of there:yuk:

[Bernoulli]

I do hope that people considering a 'career' in flying read this thread. If it opens just a couple of eyes to the reality of life with the low cost carriers then the time of contributors to this board will not have been wasted.

[peba]

look guys,its winter when nobody flies,get over it,dont see any of ye complaining when ye get 110 block hours a month in summer time etc....go somewhere with a good salary,fly about 600 p.a. with no chance of command.your choice and live with your choice:ugh:

[SD.]

If it's winter, why does the east midlands sausage factory keep on churning out FO's?

We all know why... It costs nothing to ground a FO, and costs a lot less to get a cadet to operate. Difference between the Easy flexi-crew and jet2 contract, is they are honest and tell you to go away for the winter.

[go around flaps15]

Are you questioning that first officers ability to operate based on age?

I was a safety pilot for a guy last week he was no more than 20 years of age didnt look like he had started shaving yet to be honest, but I was astonished at how capable this guy was for his first day on the line, he was ahead of the game from start to finish.

[McBruce]

Too many narrow minded people that judge a book by its cover...

[shaun ryder]

Please : I dont want any :mad: saying "Reap what you sow"So sorry, but can't help it because you are, along with contributing to lower ts & cs in this industry.

go somewhere with a good salary,fly about 600 p.a. with no chance of command.your choice and live with your choiceOk that sounds like a good idea. Do you mean a company where you get paid your salary and duty pay, whether on standby or not? Car parking/ uniform/ crew meals/ private healthcare/ sick pay/ pension/ loss of license insurance/ world wide staff travel for yourself, family and friends. The list goes on, is this what you mean?

He didn't look old enough to have a full driving licence let alone a frozen ATPL.I know what you mean. Did he have the obligatory wrap around shades, gelled hair style and fashion shoes? Living the dream eh?

I was a safety pilot for a guy last week he was no more than 20 years of age didnt look like he had started shaving yet to be honest, but I was astonished at how capable this guy was for his first day on the line, he was ahead of the game from start to finish.I will hazard a guess at this one. Probably based on your personal overall experience, I suggest that this would be no mean feat.

[go around flaps15]

Shaun dont guess about something you know naff all about. You know nothing about me or my experience.

Guessing? I suspect you do a lot of that.

[VJW]

nice one GAF15

Shaun, probably a BA FO for next decade, thinking he's better then everyone else?

Is it nice to hazard a guess?

[RichT]

On my last FR flight, I saw the F/O doing the walk-around as I was walking up the front stairs to board the aircraft. I was seriously asking myself whether his parents had dropped him off at the airport! He didn't look old enough to have a full driving licence let alone a frozen ATPL. So it's interesting to read here that at least one FR captain thinks the same.
Guy Gibson was a Wing Commander at the age of 23. At the age of 25 he lead the dam buster raids. I don't think anyone said he was too young.

From an old Captain who enjoys flying with the youngsters even if I know nothing about Call of Duty Black Ops, house, garage, shed or even patio music.

[DirectDIKAS]

Disagree Shaun,

Thats why I said no to$$ers saying reap what you sow, Ive sown nothing, I got into this industry the only way possible, in case you are out of touch the traditional way where you get selected and the airline pay for your training is long since dead and buried, I did not create this situation, therefore I sowed nowt fella. It is not me who is bringing down your T&Cs, I simply got into the industry that I wanted to in the only way possible.
People like you would rather I stayed out of the industry under the illusion that that would protect your T&Cs, so supposing I listen to you and say "fair enough mate, Ill not fly to protect you" What then for me? You'd rather I go and stack shelves as Tescos (no disrespect to Tesco workers) so that you can continue flying.

Its not the new entrants bringing down the T&Cs its simply the way that the industry has progressed due to market forces - thats the sowing not the newbies. The sooner people like you work that out the better.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Dikas, what did your contract say when you signed it?

I'll hazard a guess, oh no we aren't allowed. I shall state to the best of my knowledge that it said something along the lines of:

"You get paid per flying hour."
"There is not a guaranteed minimum of flying hours per year."

As my kids say - Tough titties - You do reap what you sow and you have quite correctly stated that you "sowed nowt fella" and, therefore, you are reaping nowt, fella.

I got into this industry the only way possible

Your statement would be more accurate if you change the only way possible to - the easiest, quickest, required the least amount of effort from me way.

[shaun ryder]

I could not agree more RichT, however I doubt that the latest batch of Ryanair cadets are in any way comparable to the likes of Guy Gibson (A gifted pilot/ planner/ leader). Trying to defeat the Nazis and flying for Ryanair are two completely different kettles of fish.

DIKAS, the reason why I feel the need to have a pop is because of the lofty attitudes and misguided loyalty displayed by yourselves. Also you choose to post your grumbles on an open forum for the rest of us to read. Maybe you should think about posting on a private forum (no RYR private forum on prune?).

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Trying to defeat the Nazis and flying for Ryanair are two completely different kettles of fish

Well, not really!

[go around flaps15]

Are you flying for BA yourself Shaun?

[VJW]

Course he is, Daddy paid for ATPL Intg course, and helped him get into BA hahaha, easy too no!

[DirectDIKAS]

Spandex, please advise on other ways to get into this industry? Just who is it that currently plays for your type rating when starting out? Clearly I missed a trick there! Easiest?? – there was nothing east about my journey into this game I assure you it came with great sacrifice hardship and dedication. Least amount of effort? Surely an ATPL , type rating and line training require the same amount of effort from anyone regardless of who pays for it – not quite sure the point your making there fella?
Shaun – fair enough perhaps this post would have been better on a private FR forum, didn’t realise it would attract quite such a response, it’s a while since I posted on here I forgot just how much people love to have a pop when FR is in the title. I still don’t think that the new fATPL’er is responsible for terms and conditions being degraded, I know that in an ideal world all fAPTL’ers would say “no” to paying for a TR and the industry would be a better place, but surely you can see that that would require all newbies to know each other and have some sort of fATPL-Union which is obviously impossible, the reality of the situation is that once you get your fATPL your on your own and have to do all you can to progress yourself.

[zerotohero]

Handbags at 12 O'clock! lol

Jesus lets all have a pop at each other, I suppose its too cold to go out into the street and have a fight so where better than on here

I have a quieter month this month but still 58hours, its all about where you are based, yea would be nice if the new F/O's did not appear until summer but thats cash off the bottom line so totally expected from FR, there trying to make money not friends, middle ground would be nice but its a Looooooooooong way off I recon still

I planned for a quite winter so took care of a lot of financial stuff in the summer when I could, still going to be a bit lean over winter but in fairness looking at €58k top line for the year, I should be able to buy bread and water or I am just an idiot!

loads of new F/O's with new BMW's and such in Ryanair, well that £350 a month payment is easy in summer with 5-6K dropping on the mat, but maybe it should be £120 for a Ford Focus guys and not have to moan over the winter, Just a thought

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Spandex, please advise on other ways to get into this industry? Just who is it that currently plays for your type rating when starting out? Clearly I missed a trick there! Easiest?? – there was nothing east about my journey into this game I assure you it came with great sacrifice hardship and dedication. Least amount of effort? Surely an ATPL , type rating and line training require the same amount of effort from anyone regardless of who pays for it – not quite sure the point your making there fella?

The traditional way. Yes, it's still available and there are plenty of airlines who won't charge you a thing.

Easiest does not imply easy, least amount of effort does not imply effortless. But getting an fATPL isn't getting in to the industry is it. Getting a job is getting in to the industry. What did you do? Paid for it. Easier than being patient, gaining experience and earning the job you hold now.

You have sowed nothing, as you admit, and you are now reaping nothing.

I'll ask again, what did your contract say? The one that you signed, can't really complain when you get what you signed up for.

[DirectDIKAS]

Spandex, Fair enough I bow to your better knowledge, in my search for a job I found no airline interested in paying for my training.
What did I do to get into the industry? Well let me tell you as I couldn’t get into the industry initially I did an instructing course and also worked as a dispatcher both with the intent of helping me to get that all important foot in the door, both of these factors showed that I was working in the industry rather than just buying my way in as you imply. Ok so I paid for my TR but like I said before I couldnt find any airlines paying for your training nowdays, perhaps 1 or 2 bond you, but is that soo different?
As for my contract its not necessarily what you are implying, but Im not going to state it publicly here for as Shaun has reminded me, it’s a public forum.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

DD, good for you for trying at least. I'm sorry your efforts didn't pay off and you had to pay more for a job.

Without giving away any details in your contract could you tell me if you are surprised that you aren't getting a minimum number of hours?

The difference between a bond and paying for a TR is that at no time was I out of pocket when I was training. It cost the airline to train me.

[20driver]

DD, I suggest you do an analysis of what you will earn in the next 5 years and see where you are wrt to your outlay for a TR. Say you pay it off in the 5 years, what is your net going to be?

Then figure out what you might have earned going Lord underpants route. Lets see a few years instructing, you'd get what 15K a year if you were very lucky, a year of charter a not much more and then a big break, flying a twin turbo prop at maybe 25K a year. You'd might gross in 5 years what you'll get in year 5 at FR.

5 years from now you will have 3-4 K in 738 time, maybe some command time. What price will you command then, particularly if you will travel? Lots of posts on here from people with thousand of TP hours who can't get a look, you won't be one of them.

Fact is you made a very smart move paying for your TR and getting on to jets early. You are setting yourself up for life. If I was a young guy starting out that is exactly what I would do.

You correctly pointed out it is not the entrants who set T&C, its the market. The senior guys on the inside might have some leverage but would they use it to help the newbies? Hasn't happened yet and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it.

[scoteros]

Nice to see that Ryanair will still be out of trouble for a long time as we continue to fight against each other instead of trying to work together against Ryanair to improve our working conditions...
Is it really important to find out who is responsible for the decrease in our terms and conditions ?
It would be better to use that energy to get it back where it was and to even higher....

[gorillit]

@ VJW

'Shaun, probably a BA FO for next decade, thinking he's better then everyone else?'

'Course he is, Daddy paid for ATPL Intg course, and helped him get into BA hahaha, easy too no!'

Weren't you the one spouting on about 'bettering your chance' of making it into the right hand seat at BA?? why are you taking the p!ss out of somebody who actually got the job that you wanted! Didn't you get it, and that's why a 10year wait for command is so laughable?

How's that assumption?

[d105]

Guys, we're all on the same damn team here. Have you ever seen doctors of different hospital treat each other in this way? Have you ever seen teachers pick on their young students in ways I see older pilots pick on cadets?

C'mon Guys!

With regards to Ryanair. I wouldn't say the exodus has begun. But I'm seeing some distinct movement in my base (central Europe). I know of at least 4 FO's with interviews lined up in the sandpit. One of them has already passed his sim check.

The base TRE in Pisa has quit because PB didn't live up to his word. That wouldn't have happened 2 or 3 years ago.

To the youngster flying in my company I always give the same words of advice. Build your hours up to 3000 and get your ATPL meanwhile. After 2500 start applying for other companies.

[DirectDIKAS]

Spandex, Thanks for that, I do appreciate it! I did try but with no airline work for over a year and having to renew the IR - (unpleasant and expensive!) I did become increasingly desperate. Despite my 2 jobs within the industry it was still only FR where I finally got a door open to me.

I agree a bond is better as you dont have the difficulty of having to find even more cash when your at your most skint although the reduced pay for some time afterwards would be a bit of a PITA but overall a better option if you are lucky enough to have options!

To answer your question Im probably not that surprised about getting less than minimum hours as its FR, it is the place where the mgt do what they like with zero regard for you, I just didnt expect it to be quite as scare on the flying this winter as it is, although last winter was quiet, it wasnt this quiet, I think that also has a lot to do with where your based and it seems that Im in a particularly quiet base. Such is life.
In reply to another post, I have to agree with 20driver, although I don’t wish anyone to get stuck in props, I think it is ultimately good to get on to the jet early. He also mentions “the senior guys on the inside might have some leverage but would they use it to help the newbies? Hasn't happened yet and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it.” I also agree with this, The older experienced pilots in this industry have sat back and watched the new cadets continually getting more shafted in this game and LET it happen they haven’t come out united and said, “hang on this treatment of our fellow pilots is unacceptable” and made a stance to help us out. They sit back on their better (although decreasing) T&Cs and just blame the new starter who is just trying to get on in life. They want us to be united and say "No", they could well use the saying "practice what you preach"

[DirectDIKAS]

Have no idea whats going on with the fonts in that previous post:}

[VJW]

Gorillit - called a joke mate, so wind you're neck in a bit!

[Skyhigh86]

To get the thread back on track;

Take an average of 800 hours per year;

800/12 = 66.6 hours per month

if your pay rate is 70.5 then budget on 4700 euros gross per month. In the summer if you do 100 hours, then bank the 33.3 hours of extra block pay in order to not be down on your month off of zero hours.


its not rocket science:8

[Facelookbovvered]

Catch 22 with Ryanair the more successful they are the less airlines out there to offer jobs on proper T&C's, and by any measure Ryanair BRK contract is basically a scam, it's contractors are not by any reasonable definition self employed, can you imagine a plumber sitting around without pay on standby for days on end for one customers?

Once you cross the line of charging for reading a job application form, then it was only ever going one way and there is a lot further to go yet.

I would not be surprised to see MOL's idea of a free market result in a system of bidding for work blocks, so in December you can bid for 80 hours work in Feb, the bidding will close on the 5th of Jan and the pilot(s) with the lowest price will get the hours,its a win win, the pilot with lowest cost (lives at home with Mummy and rides to work & no girl friend) get to build hours until he can get a job elsewhere, Ryanair want/need people to leave this allows another motivated fresh face cadet with his Dad's credit card to help keep flights cheaper.

Of course eventually some thing will give or Michael Moore will do a film about Ryanair that will scare the pants of the punters, my bet is on the collapse of the Euro and the bun fight that will follow.

Forget unions, the biggest BALPA couldn't organise a piss up in brewery in Ryanairs case. Don't blame the cadet's they have been sold a pipe dream too!!

[Kempus]

Just to correct,

Rostered average 758 per flying year, divide that by 10 as you get one month unpaid, 2 blocks of 5 days and recurrent training which amounts to another month unpaid.

So average should be 75.8hrs per month. Personally I'm no where near that, flew 98hrs in June then averaged 65hrs during remaining summer months.

Last month 50hrs, this month 35hrs. At the start of Novemebr I had flown 435hrs since April.

Its getting more depressing and becoming more and more difficult to put away for the winter. Dont get me wrong there are guys doing 80-100hrs last couple of months and those with 80+ this month. There seems to be no fairness in the system with how the hours are distributed. One guy doing 80hrs in the month and another guy on the same 5 on 4 off days doing 40hrs. Somehow 60hrs each seems impossible to roster and I am aware of flight time limitations from chapter 8.

Never had a bad thing to say about Ryanair in the past but the increasing amount of standbys are a joke. Ive been with the company for over 3 years and been called off standby only three times.

Why should a collegue with the same qualification and experience as you earn a third more for the same job due to a rostering system.

Anyway rant over.

Check out page 106 for info regarding hours and productivity.
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/investor/2010/Annual_report_2010_web.pdf

[get_a_grip]

Lord Spandex Masher, your a CUN*! your the kind of CUN* that believes he was born to fly, I'll bet you believe you could teach birds to fly,

[zerotohero]

Kempus?

758 Hours per year, you still divide it by 12 as there are 12month per year last I counted, yes you get a month off and days in blocks of 5, but you stil have 12 months of the year to pay rent or mortgage or both

so 758 X €80.50 for me = €61019 Divide by 12 = €5084.91 Gross PCM

Dont quite see the logic in the way your looking at it, maybe that explains why people are skint over winter, how can you not make 5k last a month, bills cant be that high unless your a total fool with a big house new posh car and all the new toys china has to offer.

Whats the problem here?

[Kempus]

You seemed to have missed the whole point zero to hero! Its all about the complete uncertainty! One month you make enough then the next month you make barely enough to cover the bills or are having to pay off stuff from last winter when you were doing 20hrs per month. Yes when you earn a bit more you have the tendancy to spend more but why not? Why should I constantly count the pennies as I may only get 50 next month. There is no or very little pattern to it! I'd happily work 9 months a year if they gave me 750hrs in those months but they wont! No promises!

In my post I clearly stated I wasnt achieving the 758hrs which is an average by the way, and hopefully you know how to work that out as there are people at both ends of the spectrum and, kinda is what this whole thread is about! Those doing less than average for no apparent reason at all!

For your info I flew 705hrs last year(this year I dont think it will be legally poss to hit the average) so your figures cant apply to everyone so I'm cannot see at all how you can preach that! Say I did 300hrs x 80.5 = 24150/12 = 2012.50 = monthly take home 1480.35. Average mortgage is around 800 so leaves you 680.24! Its a relative to everyones situation so, to say how I cant live in x amount is none of your fecking business but just so you know i'll tell you anyway cos I think your a bit of a tallywhacker.

Modest car <23K, family, dont own a house(trying to save for one)t, student loan, training costs, insurance of multiple types because of being self employed, not to mention travel, food, car parking, private pension! You add it up and all of a sudden your 5k very quickly dries up and oh yeah, tax, national insurance as well and exchange rate fluctuations and it leaves you with close to bugger all for a rainy day!

Yeah if FR could guarantee 758hrs a year then to budget accordinly would be easy. But going from one month of 70hrs to half that the next to, as a lot of people find out, an unpaid month appearing on thier roster budgetting is difficult!

Anyway I await you comments on how good everything is and how we should live like a hermit to make your post feesible and put it all relative to your situation!

ps dont drink and pprune, where's that in chapter 8?

[Shaman]

........and by any measure Ryanair BRK contract is basically a scam, it's contractors are not by any reasonable definition self employed...

From USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2010-12-13-contractjobs13_ST_N.htm)

<<The question of whether workers should be labeled employees or contractors largely hinges on whether employers control their activities>>

Sound familiar? Read the rest of the article.

[widered]

Facelookbovered I can't agree more the system is such that the management will always win.
This will never change until all ryanair pilots realise we need to stand togetheir wether its under the banner of REPA IALPA BALPA or ECAC .

Even if your a selfish person which i dont condon but there seems to be a lot of it in Ryanair, your selfish interest are best served in a union.

We can change the way we are treated with a small bit of effort from everyone.
Otherwise it will be like you say. there will be more and more scams to take our terms from us.

MOL and his chronies could be faced with a inevitable decision to cave in to the pilot group if its organised.
Because at the end of the day the Book stops with the Board of directors and the investers.

[Skyhigh86]

Kempus if the rostered average is 758 then just times that by your hourly pay, divide by 12 then you have a gross number to budget on.

758 x 70.5 =53439

53439/12= 4453 euros per month budget

Have you agree with zerotohero on this, cant understand kempus's calculations.

If you bank all the pay you recieve thats more than 4453 then it covers your month off nicely.

I assume you are in a UK base so im not really surprised your hours are low, wouldnt really complain though as i know of 100's that would give their right bollock for a UK base and accept the reduction in hours.

[Kempus]

Aggghhhhhhhhh!

What do you guys not understand????? Its nothing to do with what the average, whos calculations are right or wrong! The fact is you effectively get paid for 10 months work per year! If you are flying less than average on a constant basis where is the 'extra' as you say avaiable to bank if you outgoings are fixed and your income is variable and the majority of the time decreasing????

The whole point is there is no fairness in the system!! Why should the guy who gets in the seat after me earn a third more as his name is just because his name is alphabetically before mine!

So if you have the answers and as you clearly keep pointing out, can divide things by 12, why are some guys doing 3 standbys a week with 12hrs flying and others doing 30hrs no standby and above average on hours for the time of year??

[McBruce]

Even doing 40 hours is roughly 3600euro before tax, if we applied to Jet2, we would get much less than what people are complaining about here.

I believe they were offering something like £1800pm (2200e).

[Kempus]

Basic and guaranteed? Would be nice, could plan a little better! Still nice to see everyone is still avoiding the question regarding our Rostering system. Seniority apparently dosent exist yet it's the same guys out of base, same guys 70+ hrs per month!

[DirectDIKAS]

Kempus, I agree that the distribution of flights within the base seems to be random, There are some who get 2-3 canaries and back a week yet others get eg 1 Ireland and back and 1 N. France and back, the former gets 25+ hours in the week whilst the latter gets 4 so I totally understand the point you make, it does seem unfair. I don’t understand the planning / distributing of flights. there seems to be no obvious control over the equality and theres no reversal of schedules so that you can have a v.quiet week followed by a decent week of flying. If you knew that would happen it would make budgeting a bit easier. Currently have to budget for ultra low hours and only spend on essentials, nice at christmas

[d105]

The Ryanair rostering system is designed to man all flights at the lowest possible cost to the company. This is why there seems to be no logical distribution behind your roster.

Another reason why UK based pilots are not flying as much is because the market in the UK is currently saturated. Ryanair has a disproportionate amount of bases in the UK compared to other countries. There is too much passenger overlap.

To give an example. At my base in central Europe we have a passenger overlap range of roughly 350km total travel distance. This means that through airport surveys Ryanair has established that the majority of its' passengers at my base live within that distance of the airport. This equates to roughly 200 miles. Outside that radius, a passenger is more likely to choose another Ryanair base over mine as the departure point of his travels. I have these figures from by base captain, so they should be more or less accurate.

When you transmute those figures to the UK you'll see where the problem lies. All the major UK bases (Stansted, Luton, Bristol, Birmingham, East-Midlands, Leeds) are positioned on average less than 150 miles from each other.

In the UK, you have 6 bases in the passenger overlap radius equal to that of just 1 central European base. Add to that the fact that Stansted has a much larger passenger attraction rate because of the larger spectrum in available destinations. In short, the competition for passengers between UK bases in much larger than the competition for passengers in central Europe.

In my base, you'll get 1 standby per week normally. Can't speak for FO's, but captains keep averaging around 75 up to 90 hours per 28 days. From FO's I hear variable numbers, but not as low as I've read here. I would say average around 55 per month for the youngsters.

I feel for the guys flying 40 hours or less. I hope my post gives some insight in the reasons behind it.

[lospilotos]

Again, I agree that it is a bit frustrating that we are having 100 hour months during the summer and 30 in the winter and sometimes it feels like everyone else gets to fly more. However, I compared hours with a colleague that was complaining he got less than everyone else. As it turned out it only differed 10-20 hours between us when we factored in the fact that he had had his month off and mine was coming up.

Also, if you insist on having your month off and ad hoc days during summer when the production is higher, I don´t think you can expect to get the same amount of hours over the year as if you take a hike in January.

Take your 600 or so hours and divide by 12 (yes 12), multiply with your hourly rate and any currency conversion and you will get your average per month. Any more money that shows up in your account around the 12th should be set aside to cover for the month without any pay and the months with reduced pay. I agree with Kempus that if you never reach the expected average per month that would be a bit of a problem, but I don´t think anyone get´s less than 600/year. You cannot expect to get 750-800 anymore, at least not in a training base, perhaps in a place like KUN or so...

[wayupthere]

Take your 600 or so hours and divide by 12 (yes 12)

Unless you're with McNamara in which case you can pick random numbers as that's what they seem to do.

Anyone in the UK looking for hours, get you're hands on one of these "company IDs" and you can go to BCN and the likes for some extra hours!

[sellect]

Anyone know how much flying a FO can expect from BCN, MAD or AGP?
Any information will be greatly appreciated!

[THICKO]

Quote - Lord Spandex Masher, your a CUN*! your the kind of CUN* that believes he was born to fly, I'll bet you believe you could teach birds to fly, -Unquote


Wow, that's a really useful contribution to the debate :rolleyes:

[clunk1001]

Quote - Lord Spandex Masher, your a CUN*! your the kind of CUN* that believes he was born to fly, I'll bet you believe you could teach birds to fly, -Unquote


Perhaps Get_a_Grip if you asked Lord Spandex Masher nicely he could also teach you some grammar while he's at it, with "his" CUN* :rolleyes:

My first post as a member of the grammar police....but really if you're going to stoop to such crass statements on here and bring down the tone of the discussion, then at the very least get it right. :ugh:

Get_a_Grip: repeat after me....

You're a CUN*

He's a CUN*

I'm a CUN*

We're all CUN*s

Your mums......enough said?



Back to topic....

Kempus: are guys at the same base as you on vastly different hours? Are they on the same contract as you? And have you asked about why there's a discrepancy?

[JW411]

Isn't it all quite fascinating?

Not long ago there was a huge hue and cry going on pprune that Ryanair were fiddliing the books so that their pilots were having to fly more than 900 hours in a calendar year, but by some Irish fiddle (excuse pun) "everything got put right by magic on April 1st".

Suddenly, some of them are flying less than the poor chaps in BA!

I have seen and done all of this before.

For example, when I worked in the US of A in the 1980s for a Part 121 operator, I got paid by the hour and had a 50-hour guaranteed month. Anything above that was good news. In fact, a 100 hour month was wonderful. (A 120 hour month was possible under FAA regulations).

However, being a practical soul, I already figured that I was not likely to do 100 hours per month every month of the year, so I did some sensible accountancy and put some of the good months towards what were likely to be the bad months.

Not only that; the company that I worked for in the US of A, did not have a pension scheme or anything else for that matter, so I put a proportion of what I earned in the US of A into a UK pension fund and it has rewarded me handsomly.

It is called the principle of the 6 Ps.

"Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance".

[757_Driver]

I wonder if the good people from HMRC are reading this! They must be pissing themselves if they are with the easy pickings coming up!

"Tell me mr self employed ryr pilot why didn't you earn any money last month"

"Coz I was sitting around on unpaid standby somewhere in europe"

"why didn't you just come home and fly for someone else then, or do another job"

"Coz I can't, my contract says I can't"

"Aaaah, I see, now let me have a look, 4 years at 80 euros per hour times 700 hours a year, at Paye rates, including the employers national insurance of course, plus 4 years of late fines, plus interest....Thats quite a tidy sum you owe her majesty sir. Cheque by the end of the week will be fine, if not, you know where the local court is don't you sir"

Whilst I pity anyone in your boat, reap what you sew is an apt description, and surely anyone who went into the glorious cadet 'pay for everything' scheme must have seen this as a natural conclusion?

[ryanairpilotSTN]

Mugabellew was on the flightdeck of my flight to STN - and we asked him about the hours issue. He said that he was driving the "optimiser" software to get all pilots - Ryanair and contract - within 5% of each other - when annual leave was factored per month.

I did not understand how he could do this but he said that he had a statistician working weekly producing reports by base by rank and employer. Each base was then manually adjusted on the roster and inspected to ensure that all pilots would converge. I asked how could this work with more than 2500 pilots.

He booted up his laptop (non SOP on the flightdeck I know) and showed both of us the live data. Uncanny the lowest and highest in STN were within 6%. He said to drive this on that in some bases it means that some will have markedly more flying than others to bring them into the statistical band.

He referred me to a book called "fooled by randomness" and claimed that airline flights operations and rostering were the ultimate wonder of game theory. As he tried to explain a "polar aerograph" to me displaying hours by base - I pretended to have an RT call to make.

[D O Guerrero]

757 Driver - I'm not really sure how HMRC would enforce something like that. I work as a contractor because Brookfield/RYR let me do so and provide no other way of working for them. I pay an accountant and he sees to it that I remain within the law and pay the tax (Corporation, Income, Capital Gains and VAT) I owe. I do not have an option to go onto PAYE.
If, by HMRC rules, I should be an employee (which is debatable), then that would be a matter for HMRC to take up with Brookfield, not me, surely? I've already paid the tax under the system of work that I find myself in.

[CancelIFR]

Funny, I left FR last spring wanting to get as many hours per schedule as possible. Now each time it comes i hope for as little flying as possible. Now i average about 450 hours a year and loving it. Leave that "airline" and get a life/real job!:ugh:

[zerotohero]

Kempus

Divide by 12! lol

I have a car, 2 in fact, loan repayment for type rating, own MY own house (by myself), Commute to Spain, pay €500 euro a month here, have a contract mobile, a previous loan also for house upgrades, car insurance road tax, and a fairly good lifestyle, go out to dinner most nights at home and a beer when I want and take the odd couple of days away places to romance the ladies, and still don't sit and moan on here about the money,

DIVIDE by 12, I did 85 hours last month, looking at 55 this month, guess what, not spending all last months money this month, keeping some in the bank to top up next month, the 90+ hours in summer with out of base pay were great, cookies in the cupboard now, yes the hours are not averaged out, theres a lot of pilots and recon its just too much extra work for rostering to bother even trying, would just cost more man hours to try and do it.

I don't believe what a previous poster said about its worked for the least possible cost in the flight deck, I have often flown as a higher rate f/o while new cheap guys are on standby.

Anyway, there is no guarantee of hours, I knew that starting, you knew that too! you cant moan after, no one made any promise, you just hoped to fly 900 hours a year, I on the other hand do not want too, 700-750 a year would suit me fine.

[mikehammer]

757 Driver

I did the latest HMRC employment status indicator and answered the questions as though a Brookfield pilot. This was the result:

Employment Status Indicator Result
Based on the information you have provided, the worker is self-employed.

The result is based on the following grounds:

Version: 1.3.0.2
The worker is self-employed. [Why ?]
There is a low indication of substitution. [Why ?]
There is a high indication of financial risk. [Why ?]
Printer-friendly version

Paye therefore is not applicable.
If you want to try it yourself just google HMRC self employment rules.

[WallyWumpus]

As much as it will annoy a lot of us who suspect the chips are stacked against us individually, I suspect if we reconvene on April 1st (no joke intended), and compare hours for the RYR rostering year, I bet we will all fall into a pretty tight band.

Wally.

PS. I flew 32 hours last November, and 97 this November - go figure!

[sellect]

Are you based in Spain? If so at which base? And do you have any information how much flying on average one can expect from the spanish bases?
thx

[WallyWumpus]

Sellect,

There appears to be no way to give an accurate answer to your question, if I were able to predict hours in bases I would bottle and sell it!!

I guess the common sense view is to look at what happens at the base and make an intelligent guess. If the base has a reduction of a/c over the winter you will likely find it overcrewed and hence a lot of standbys. If you are in the UK, the bases seems to have a slightly more seasonally adjusted utilisation of aircraft and this will affect hours.

A year ago F/O's seem content to say they got around 750hrs/yr. Someone above said 600-650hrs. My experience (me and friends around the network) would probably split the difference and say you can pretty much guarantee 700hrs from April 1st-March 31st each year, although the bad months can be really bad (see Nick14's comment).

Wally.

[RYR738_driver]

My gripe isn't with the money side, I've got a good car, city centre flat and budget well. I was sold by the idea of high hours, hours badly needed to get the opportunity to apply for command before the current cutoff at the end of 2012.

Lisline tells me I've done 535 actual hours this flying year, expecting 550 by the end of the month.

I did 735 hours last year so would seem that I need to average around 62 hours for the last 3 months to make that. Chances of achieving it......slim.

Have seen plenty of new fo's recently, some transferred from other bases, others were training here and then probably for ease, just stayed here.

One lad transferred from Madrid and was told by Big D in Stansted that he can move but Edinburgh is already over crewed.

Don't see the sense in that when guys are doing out of base in Madrid!:ugh:

I'm led to believe RYR work on 5.2 crews per aircraft so that should see us with 31 fo's plus any extra training, we are actually on around 38!

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand how lucky I am to be UK based, and I only got it because the base was expanding, but I see no point in saturating the base when no expansion is occurring.

[xerox25]

FR wants to make money with the cadets ! Guess whom is in excess ?

[nick14]

Anyone get the feeling they are recruiting in excess deliberately to make sure that if guys do leave they have enough spare. Also to make money on the type rating etc.

I think I will apply for December off next year to keep the worst months as holiday.

[zerotohero]

Studi

Nearly right, medicals and car park are not deducted by the company and made a profit on as we do them ourselfs, I use my own AME and pay him directly,
as for car parking, dont need one based here.

[Sky Goose]

Hi all,

My 2 cents worth.

I am an f/o at a smallish base, 6 a/c, and for me the issue is not the usual reduction over the winter months, which is understandable, but the way Fr use cost cutting at our expense.
In the Autumn they announced a 30% reduction in the winter schedule (to reduce costs) compared to last year, so I guess 30% less cash for us on top of that 5 new cadets arrived in the Autumn. This has meant a drastic reduction in flight for the based f/o's, most f/o's here are doing no more that 30hours, last month I had all of 4 flying days. This is simply not acceptable, I have been with the company for almost 4 years, without a pay rise (excluding hourly incremental increases as per contract), while the company has been making big mulas.
My contract also states 4 sbys per 28 days, this is almost never honoured.
I did 680 hours last year, and it looks like it will be less this year due to Fr's cost cutting. I pay my taxes and have a family with 2 kids to support, so the lack of income is a serious issue.
So all this talk about bumper summers and lean winters is all well and good, but when the company can reduce your livelihood at a whim of management, the buck stops there.
I for one am not interested in working here any more, I have sent out applications and hope for a positive outcome. As appealing as the command upgrade might be, I have had enough of this company's greed and disregard for its employees, and I have a feeling I'm not the only one.
The bottom line is they don't look after us, and hence don't deserve our services, take them elsewhere.

Lets all be honest, a company that has 3 billion+ in the bank and decides 2 years ago to cut off its contribution to staff xmas party's..... something's not right upstairs.

rant over

all the best

Goose

[bfr]

"My contract also states 4 sbys per 28 days, this is almost never honoured."

SkyGoose, read again, it is not exactly in the contract, it is Guidelines !! With a wording stating it is then not guaranteed...:sad:

Like you, I am more and more upset with the company, my point is that 2 years ago you could find people happy to work here who could help you see the bright side. Today, I do not find anybody happy here anymore so we are 2 bitching guys in the flightdeck almost everyday...

[pilot999]

:O Please guys , Don't feel sorry for me. Nov/ Dec = 25 hours per month, over 4/5 days. the rest standby. absolutely brilliant. feet up, beer in one hand. time to live. I get depresseed thinking of the summer season :O:O:O

[EK4457]

Well were all glad that you can afford to think like that. I think it's fair to say that this thread is not really aimed at those in your situation.

EK

[LAX]

I agree with pilot999. Happy days. Its great not to have to go fly around in this crap weather.

And EK4457, first officers always complain about not flying enough regardless of the airline. I complained myself. All the FO's at my base also complain about lean winters, but it still doesnt stop them from buying fancy new cars. Mmm, theres always something about FO's and cars.

[clunk1001]

I understand why they dont want you flying for someone else, but your contract surely doesnt state that you cannot engage in ANY other work outside of RYR! Does it? :eek:

As your hours seem to be continuously reducing, you will presumably reach a point where you can no longer pay the winter bills. So its not just OAP grans wrapped in an auld tartan shaul, in front of the fire with only 'one bar' .... its OAT grads too).

So I presume you would either have to find part time work when on standby (if your contract allows) or leave RYR altogether?

The shortage of other flying jobs means that RYR hold all the aces (:) pun intended)

[pilot999]

Having previously done the 8oo hours routine upto the end of December. Winter at 25 hours a month is far better.sector pay drops off, but I allow or budget for this over a year.

:D
Also the 737 goes faster than those cars as well, handling on corners is a bit iffy. and certainly wont handle the Birchanger round about as you try to escape from the airport. I'm more of a White van driver myself.

[go around flaps15]

Sitting in front of the fire with one bar on is a bit extreme. Let's keep it sensible, and not exaggerate.

Most FOs I know on the Brookfield contract do a mimimum of 40 to 50 hours hours in the winter season. With 50 hours that would result in a pay rate for an FO on the higest rate at Brookfield(1500 hours plus) of about 4000 euros before tax. On the starting Brookfield rate after completion of line training it would equate to about 2750 euros before tax.

The problem is a lot of guys live like premiership footballers in the summer and then start whinging in the winter. There are exceptions where guys and girls do get less hours than stated but from my experience, it is rare.

[Sky Goose]

go around, pilot999 and lax,

My point is that the income can be reduced, as per my case, to around 30 hours or less, at the whim of rostering, or an Icelandic volcano.
I dont have fancy cars or live like a fotballer in the summer, and still need around 50 hours in the winter to live an average 'pilots' lifestyle. If your happy with no pay increase in 4 years, while the boss has more than he can spend, good for you.

I myself feel its time to move on.

Still like the equipment and colleagues but the other stuff is seriously sullying my experience...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Lord Spandex Masher, your a CUN*! your the kind of CUN* that believes he was born to fly, I'll bet you believe you could teach birds to fly,

Mind if I break down your post get a grip? I'll ignore the basic spelling and grammatical errors as they are obvious to everyone.

your a CUN*! - Yes, I am.

your the kind of CUN* that believes he was born to fly - No, but I never believed that I had to pay for it and so far I haven't.

I'll bet you believe you could teach birds to fly - It's not difficult at all. You just kick them up the arse and they start flapping. Bit like you really.

Do Ryanair allow kids with ASBO's to fly for them?

[VJW]

lmao, kick them up the a$$ and they start flapping hahahahaha

[fastidious bob]

Well, after optimistically joining Ryanair last year I am now looking for work elsewhere. Over the past 3 months I have averaged less than 30 hours per month as a Captain. To me this is completely unacceptable. I know you should look at this as an average over a one year period, but I was told to expect to fly 850 hours per year. I will fall way short of this figure. I have always maintained Ryanair could be a great company, but when you start messing with the only two thing that really keep Captains working there, money and roster, people will start to walk. I have 10 close friends in Ryanair, all Captains, everyone of them is now looking for work elsewhere. Does Ryanair management know something we don't, do they have a secret ace up there sleeve? I am completely perplexed as to where they are going to get Captains from next year. I have heard from reliable sources that they are already short for summer 2011.
Its a shame really. Good aircraft, good training department, good routes, terrible money!

[VJW]

Bob where are you from and where are you based?

Perhaps I don't need to know that, but if you're based at home, they know this and, being english like myself based in spain since I joined two years ago, I've done 1700 hrs on type so far. This does average 850 a year, but I'm not at home either.

Most people I know do less hours when they're based in the UK or IRE, and it seems the majority of Brits and Irish want to be based at home.

[hollingworthp]

AIMINGHIGH123 - did it cost you 65-100k in training before you could do your job? No? Well that's why you don't get paid the same.

It's all risk-reward.

Once you have outlayed a large amount of money, you expect to be able to earn it back within a reasonable time-scale.

[hollingworthp]

Don't forget to add in circa €30k if you want to get a job at Ryanair (and there are not many alternatives at the moment for fresh grads)

[macflea]

hear hear aiminghigh, i agree with you
yes it will cost 30000 grand for a type rating my understanding thats its tax deductable . a benefit of forming a company with brookfield , also are these companies formed in ireland , correct me if i am wrong is the tax rate 13 percent and your not paying the higher rates .
one of previous posters expects to be treated as paye with benefits of self employed company director in these brookfield companies

[fastidious bob]

AIMINGHIGH123

Just because we love, well like, what we do does not mean we should put up with reduced pay. In my opinion its not just about the 65K outlay in order to get the job in the first place. Its about responsibility. I take an enormous amount of responsibility as a Captain every time I sign the tech log and fly 189 passengers from A to B safely, and I should be paid accordingly! Otherwise whats the point??

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Once again in English please.

Also check your maths.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Nevermind, I got a yokel to translate.

Your a god! free job fair play..did they give you a medal with it too? No, why would they?
Are they the best of the best Lord Sapndex?? How would I know? Do I even care?
Or is it more just coincidence their family works/worked there??? Again, I neither know nor care.
SO if you want free training then you better no someone very very well..and in that case dont come on spouting off how great you are for not paying! If you are able to read then I suggest you have another look at my posts because at no point did I say that I was great because I didn't pay for a job.

So come down off your throne into reality because 90% chance your contact got you your job not your ability to fly, and certainly not your brain. Actually I had no contacts but I was lucky enough to get an interview. Even if someone has got contacts somewhere then they still have to pass all the exams and simulator checks don't they? So does that not rely on a minimum standard of intelligence and ability?

If you entered it years before that then wake up and realise things have changed and dont tell these guys sit and wait and dont pay..because they will be waiting untill the year Christmas falls in July! Would you kindly show me where I said they should sit and wait?

you cant debate fact Aer Lingus are set to do about 10 type ratings, they recieved 1500 applicants. Lord Spandex you telling me the 1450 should wait till get time around?? I hope your three and five times multiplication is better than your subtraction. Or maybe you're one of these twenty year old hot shot children of the magenta line who doesn't need that kind of skill anymore. You can probably quote verbatim your operating manual but when it comes to experience then you are sadly lacking. How long have you been flying?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I'm glad you're not worried Toby, that wasn't my intention, I'm sure everybody appreciates your cyber hug though. However, there must be something wrong because statements of facts don't usually elicit such responses from 'normal' people.

If you can find any post of mine that has "put down" Ryanair or it's employees please do quote it for all to see.

As it stands so far I have stated that there are airlines who do not charge you money to work for them. Do you dispute that fact? I have also said that I am lucky enough to have never paid for any job and this has elicited the most aggressive of reponses. I'm a cun*, apparently, because I haven't had to pay for a job. You can clearly see the responses, do they appear reasonable to you? Now, who's got a chip on their shoulder?

I also asked a pertinent question about Ryanair contracts and minimum number of flying hours. If you have any more revealing information regarding this then please do let everyone know.

Most of your post is just rambling, vitriolic, guff aimed at me. You spend more time composing an attacking post about something you claim you don't give a toss about than the actual subject at hand. Well done.:D

Finally,
he seems to have a superioty complex probably stemming from when he was a kid and was always last to get picked for someone's team

Surely I would have an inferiority complex no? Maybe you should practice your amateur attempts at psychoanalysis in private before you publicly make an arse out of yourself again.

Tobias118118 appears to have deleted his post.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Bob

Captain every time I sign the tech log and fly 189 passengers from A to B safely

Is it not more like 60km from A to 120km from B on Ryanair? :{

[irishpilot1990]

Coming on here telling people it's wrong to pay for type and to wait for the tiny percentage of jobs for which you need a huge contact to get is acting like your better then others! Your in and didn't pay and your quite happy to see nobody else get a job! Your attitudes all wrong Spandex! Obvious you havent been faced with issues new guys have and your too stuck up to give them advice, good advice "wait and don't pay" is pathetic advice

[Lord Spandex Masher]

A) You do not need a 'contact' to get a job which does not require paying for.

B) At no point did I say wait for a job. I was asked a question and I answered it.

C) Why does suggesting that you shouldn't pay for a type rating mean I'm better than others?

D) What makes you think I'm happy to see nobody get a job?

E) I don't have an attitude. I have an opinion. If you're not happy listening to other opinions and stamp and shout every time someone disagrees with you how on earth do you cope in the sim?

F) It may well be pathetic advice which is why I didn't offer it as such.

G) Wanna answer this yet?

Even if someone has got contacts somewhere then they still have to pass all the exams and simulator checks don't they? So does that not rely on a minimum standard of intelligence and ability?

H) Would you rather my advice was 'Yeah just pay through the nose for a job you haven't earned'? No need because that's what you've done anyway.

[stefair]

RYR are the fast track scheme into the biz. I would have been happy to take it had I been called. But they never called.

There are jobs out there but working yourself up to the airlines is a lot more painful as you progress through the ranks ever so much slower.

I had effed around two years in the GA but eventually succeeded when I got hired by a major, against all odds. Modular training, early 30s. Boy it was tough! Keeping up faith was the hardest of all. In fact, worse than my IR training! ;) So far I have not had to pay for anything, all been paid for by the company. No, I had not known someone on the inside before I got hired. All down to my own efforts.

That constant battle between pro and contra RYR is really good stuff to read, pretty entertaining actually, however it leads to nowhere. Some people don't mind paying for the rating, some people do. Personally, I favor a company putting it out first, as there's only very little motivation for them to get rid of the investment again and that's great to know.

[stefair]

Why's that???

Maybe I should have mentioned I had not bothered with RYR for 18 months after finishing my training as I believed their deal was crap. However, after more than a year seeing myself pass interviews (note use of plural) but only thrown in holding pools, getting older but only logging SE time and not getting paid for my efforts I had started to think about eventually biting the bullet and applying to the 'devil.' :p

Luckily, I had not been called, instead got an interview out of the blue with my current outfit and after passing all got hired - happy end. :)

The willingness to sign up for the RYR deal was based on pure frustration and just trying to explore all options. I actually do not know whether I would have really gone for it and spent another 30k. The thought of having no rights and the possibilty of getting shown the door despite the investment of 30 grand scared me big time.

However, that said I have a few friends, who have been FOs with RYR for nearly two years now and, as much as many might hate to read it, they are doing great. No, their employer does not pay for the uniform nor for parking or sim rides, yet their net take-home is a great deal more than mine and, on top, they are logging jet time.

Still, am I jealous or do I want to be in their shoes? No.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

...yet their net take-home is a great deal more than mine...

I bet it isn't when you both have a dozen or so standbys a month!

[stefair]

Surely not! However, in all fairness, none of my friends has ever complained about being given a dozen or two standbys a month. Then again, when people have made the wrong decision, do they say? Most don't. If that two dozen standbys practice does occur in RYR than that IS bad, very bad.

Again, I am happy to NOT have had to take that route.

[Red Paddy]

FO , 80 hrs in December. What's all the fuss about?

November hours are always low, but you still average 750 hrs per year in the right seat.

Nothing wrong with that.

A few slow weeks in winter worth a thread on pprune?

Come on.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It's quite apparent that this is your attitude towards low hour professional pilots anyway.

Not really sure how or why you arrived at this particular gem. We are talking about Ryanair standbys, the contract that you signed and paying for a job.

Where has low houred professional pilots ever come into it? Just how bad is your reading comprehension?

[d105]

There's no luck involved at all Irishpilot1990. I'll wager you haven't breached second or third payscale yet. You're cheaper than an FO with more hours, so you fly more.

Once you have more hours you'll see those nicely filled rosters dwindle in favor of the new cadets at your base.

Mr. Spandex: People do what they must to get on in life. Sometimes that requires sacrifices, something which nobody likes. You're entitled to your own opinion as is everyone. From previous posts of yours though I can't help but sense a pertinent, be it quite subtle, condescending attitude towards people willing to join schemes such as Ryanair's. Unless I am misinterpreting that, in which case disregard my post, where I live it's considered reputable to come out for one's opinion openly and fully. Not by hiding behind phrases like "that's not what I said."

Regardless of all that, remember we are all colleagues who share the same passion and love for flying. The paint on the outside of the fuselage shouldn't matter when it comes to how we treat eachother. :)

disclaimer: English is my 3rd language. No references to errors in spelling or grammar, please.

[stefair]

Sorry guys, just one more post taking this off-topic a bit.

studi, Where are those many jobs out there? Personally, I cannot see them. It's always just a handful, who get the break. Often times, many of whom already with experience and just jumping ship. Opportunities for people fresh out of the press are rare. And it stays that way even in good times. I see you are Germany based so I take it you are flying for LH? I know a few people affiliated with that outfit, too and I can confirm I have also come across that figure. However, we all know all too well selections conducted by a legacy are ever so much harder to pass and only a very few make it through. Fact is, a great many will not end up getting paid to fly at all, let alone making a profit out of their 50k plus investment. So I don't think it's fair to blame those people looking but unable to land themselves a proper flying job. Yes, I also believe there are a lot of 'whiners' out there but the truth is, the number of qualified folks exceeds by far the number of jobs. It is something wannabes must be (made) aware of!

Please also note, not everyone passes the RYR interview. I have heard of and spoken myself with several people that have been sent home. In fact, one of my best friends passed their interview and was one of eight, if I recall correctly, on the day of the interview. As far as he's concerned only he himself and one or two others have been given the go-ahead. RYR's interview procedure is highly selective. You must know your stuff to be taken onboard and it's not like you just hand over 30k to be offered the job. Another friend, OAA graduate, is telling me of former coursemates being sent home, who initially have been awarded for their performance while training. RYR just could not afford to employ flight crew, who they believe are not the right material.

Given themerve's figures I can say this:

I have been bonded for twelve months to an amount of 30k. My take-home is between 20-23k p.a. On top of that, my employer pays into a state pension scheme. So should I already walk after 12 months, which I do not intend for obvious reasons since I am extremley happy with my situation, I have earned around 50k in my first year. However, given only a payrise of net 2,700 a year, it would then be "only" 73k in two years. After another year, and another 2,700 net payrise, it is now nearly 100k take-home in 3 years. Hours flown varies from base to base but is said to be around 600-800.

On the other hand the RYR deal (I stand to be corrected, please!): Given 35k net take-home (after all has been paid for RYR do not bother paying for) and an annual 7k payrise in the second and third year (I cannot say if there is another, higher pay rise in the third year with the company), the average RYR FO is looking at around 125k in three years. However, he must have flown 750 hours to earn that figure and shall not get sick, etc. TR costs 26k after tax refund so net take-home also is around 100k in three years.

To be honest, after looking at the numbers now I am quite surprised myself, as I have never compared in detail my and the RYR deal. However, please note my contract also entails a performance-based element. I will have to fly a certain amount of hours to make end's meet. And I am not logging 738 time.

As said before, early this year I would have been thrilled to take the RYR deal but now I am so glad I have never had to bother. Job and financial security are priceless. That being said though, I feel with those looking. If, after having spent all that money and dragging yourself through that intense training, you just do not get a sniff at any flying job at all, you do start thinking...

Now back to topic! :ok:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

d105, I'm not hiding behind phrases I am pointing out, in the interest of clarity, that what some posters here think I have said isn't what I actually said, or implied.

themerve, you can't go around putting words into other peoples' mouths. The word I used was earned, the word you used was deserve. There is a difference. Of course if somebody is holding a position they obviously deserve to be there, it's how they got there, in this instance, that is in question.

No I have never seen the Ryanair entry requirements, are they the same for all the other airlines you've mentioned? Still, you miss my point, I am not anti Ryanair, or it's employees, or low hour pilots as I fly with them every day. I am anti paying for a job.

Yes you paid for training. Training that the airline required you to complete. Without such training you would not have a job. So, you can sugar coat it as much as you like but you still paid to get a job. Why else would you have given an airline thirty odd grand? Out of the goodness of your heart?

They have earned all they shall receive

Exactly, they have earned nothing, they bought their position, and now they are receiving nothing - or very little, as you appear to be getting a good few standbys. You're on standby whilst the new, cheaper version of you is getting some time in, when they get expensive they will be getting more standbys while the new, cheaper version of them is getting sometime in. Remember, minimum hours was not stated in your contract was it. I actually have some sympathy for you as you expected your thirty odd grand to be an investment and sadly it has turned out to be an expensive way of sitting around while other people go flying.

It appears that you have difficulty in comprehending the Ryanair business. For example, in extremis, Ryanair could employ a million pilots and fly only one aeroplane. It doesn't matter to them as they only pay you when you fly. Otherwise there is no cost to the airline when there is no need for you to fly.

Finally, my posts on this thread are mostly as an answer to a question or a statement of fact or my opinion. They are not considered advice.

[yippy ki yay]

Guys, there's a saying that goes "never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." So do us all a favour and just ignore whatever lord spandex posts. Maybe then we can keep to the topic.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Tell you what, you could just ignore everyone who has ever disagreed with you or everyone who may have a different opinion to you. :D

Bet you have some lively discussions then.:zzz:

Fingers in ears na na na na na na na I can't hear you:rolleyes:

[flydive1]

I am anti paying for a job.

Yes you paid for training. Training that the airline required you to complete. Without such training you would not have a job. So, you can sugar coat it as much as you like but you still paid to get a job. Why else would you have given an airline thirty odd grand? Out of the goodness of your heart?Well you could take it bit further.
I had to pay for my licenses, PPL, CPL, IR,(ATPL came later), all company I asked required me to have license before hiring me, none wanted to pay for it. Without such training I would not have a job.
So you can say I paid to get a job(even if I never had to pay for a rating).

Good for you that someone else paid for all your training.;)

[Kempus]

Hello chaps,

Been I while and i've rather enjoyed it but to clarify,

Highest hours month was June for me 78hrs averaged 67hrs per month for July, August and September.

Now, as I stated before, I require to fly 52hrs to break even on all bills, private pension, tax, training loan etc.

Now over the summer months that has allowed me to bank 71hrs for my month off. As stated 52hrs to break even so leaves me 19hrs banked for my 2blocks of 5 days.
November 38hrs, December 35hrs. So already I'm 31hrs in deficite to what I need to break even never mind put away all this extra which a few have stated is so easy to do. So please tell me where I go from here?

There are a few guys at the base the same as me yet there a few doing my December hours in a week. Send a email to rostering results in a canaries flight wiped off and a standby changed to an MMM. Awesome. Nice and fair.

To those twats with 80-90hrs this month I'm alright Jack attitude, thats that poison the rest of the industry complains about!

[go around flaps15]

Who are you working for yourself?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You're quite right. But, where do you draw the line?

For instance, part of the 'deal' now requires you to pay for, lets say, landing fees. Would you happily do this in the same way that you paid for the type rating?

No? Why not?! You paid for the legally required type rating so why won't you pay for the legally required landing fees?

[yippy ki yay]

Lord Spandex,

To me it seems that you think everyone working at Ryanair is doing so because because either they have, as you say , taken the "easiest" option or they couldn't get a job elsewhere when in fact the majority of the people actually want to work there. Myself and most of the guys I trained with specifically said that they did not want to work for YOUR company unless the worst came to the worst and they were still looking for a job in 2 years time. I was fully aware of the t's & c's, I was fully aware of having to fund my TR, I was fully aware that there was no minimum hours guarantee (as I'm sure 99% of us were) yet we all would rather pay £24k for a TR and fly for Ryanair than work for your company even though the TR was funded by your airline. At the end of the day everything comes down to personal choices so although you may not agree with SSTR majority accept it

[go around flaps15]

Are you working as a commercial pilot?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Which company is that then? Don't believe I've said who I now work for.

I was fully aware of the t's & c's, I was fully aware of having to fund my TR, I was fully aware that there was no minimum hours guarantee (as I'm sure 99% of us were) yet we all would rather pay £24k for a TR and fly for Ryanair than work for your company even though the TR was funded by your airline. At the end of the day everything comes down to personal choices so although you may not agree with SSTR majority accept it

Good for you. You've not really got a complaint about so many standbys then have you?

So much for ignoring me and sticking to the topic.

GAF15, why so interested?
1. MYOB
2. Yes

[go around flaps15]

You are quite a regular "poster" on a Ryanair thread. Why would,nt I be interested?

MYOB? Is that a juvenile way of saying mind your own business?

Now that is rich.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

GAF15,

If I felt the need to then I could broadcast details of myself, my work and my life on the internet. However, I'd like to keep all of that private. I don't even see how what I do and who I work for is relevant to this thread anyway. I hope you're not the Stasi because you may not like that in the slightest.

If you don't like non Ryanair employees to post on a Ryanair thread then don't create a Ryanair thread on a public forum, is that so hard to understand? Rich indeed!

MYOB is a lazy way of saying such a thing.

P.S. I hope you've asked all the other contributors to this thread what they do and who they work for. I wouldn't like to feel that you're singling me out for special attention.

[paidworker]

I was reading this site (http://www.ryanaircabincrewjobs.com/) and while it is poorly put together the gist of what is being called a " recruitment scam " is that people pay for training as cabin crew and then fail their probation after providing very cheap labour for just under a year. Is it moving towards the same thing in first officer positions? Does it work out cheaper for Ryanair to keep the RHS filled with a fresh cadet ( in the summer season ) ( if it does Im sure knowing Mick O Learys approach to business that is what he is doing if he can get away with it ) , however it makes less sense to me that he is doing the same thing with captains unless of course a year 2+ captain costs more money and he is happy that he can get a supply of year1 captains from his cadet pool ( command is a form of carrott being touted from what I can gather ). Does in essence Ryanair want you to move on as soon as you become more expensive? I am not knocking people who have paid to fly ( as a TR does not cost 30K ..right ?) but more trying to grasp where the commercial sense for bean counters lies in it all.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Of course! As usual anybody who doesn't agree with what you've done or think that Ryanair is the best 'deal' is instantly classed as a jealous wannabe. Get over yourself.

[shaun ryder]

I am sure that the sniping, puerile comments, bad spelling and poor grammar, displayed by some of the representatives of this airline on this forum, are not a reflection of the entire pilot workforce. But I have yet to view any other airline specific related thread, that will come close to one about Ryanair. When it comes down to silly, immature, arrogant and sometimes aggressive responses to posts, you guys take the biscuit.

Wondering has Lord SPAndex any jet time or is he bored at home waiting for a job having failed they Ryanair interview!

Beauties such as this, you've gotta love em. :ok:

[bia botal]

Can't wait to see the comments when you guys find out ryr next plan for new recruits, ie 12 month contract then "see ya". On sale in 2011. That ort to get ya's going.

[d105]

Spandex,

You're missing some things. First, not all bases suffer from the "standby-itis". In fact, the enormous amounts of standby's seem to mostly hit UK bases. I've explained why somewhere else on this forum. But what it boils down to is too many Ryanair bases too close together. In other bases, flying remains quite steady throughout the winter. From when I was an FO I remember 50-60 hours in the winter. I wonder how many legacy carriers (maybe yours) can sport those figures for their FO's on a 737 or equivelant aircraft.

Second, paying for your type rating is still investing in your future. I would not pay for landing fees or fuel for a particular carrier. But my type rating is for the most flown passenger aircraft in the world, so wouldn't you say having that aircraft on your license is a good investment?

Last. You can't blame people for asking questions about your experince or employer. As you seem to have found the holy grail in aviation that all the rest of us have missed, naturally people will start to wonder how genuine your claims are.

Paidworker,

It is unclear at the moment. I believe the goal is to be self-reliant on upgrades to maintain their captain pool. It seems that's going to be the only way too. As conditions are slowly picking up, people are talking (and not only talking) about leaving. A lot of captains seem to be more and more eager to jump ship. Can't blaim them of course.

The sad thing is Ryanair could be a fantastic company. The aircraft are young, the routes challenging and the training good. It's just this terrible, terrible way of dealing with people that they have. There's a few small adjustments that if they would be done, pilot and cabin crew loyalty would skyrocket.

I'm working for this company until something better comes along. Most of my friends share the same view. For the company, that's sad.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

d105,

I haven't ever claimed to have found the holy grail of aviation. All I said was that I haven't had to pay for a job. 10 years ago that was the norm, why is it so hard for you to accept that it still should be? What I do and who I do it for is still irrelevant to this Ryanair thread. Whether or not my claims are genuine does not change the realities of working for Ryanair, does it?!

Investing in your future maybe, if there are other jobs to go to. You've said it yourself you're only hanging around until something better turns up. Why are you still here?

Maybe you're doing 50 hours a month or you're on standby all month but the point is that, potentially, everybody will sooner or later end up on a majority of standbys instead of flying. Fly the cheap pilots, don't have to pay for the expensive ones!

lospilotos,

Type ratings and essential training also used to be a direct operating cost of the airlines, until the first person opened the flood gates and paid for it. Fuel, landing fees, navigation fees and maybe even passenger compensation will remain direct operating costs until the first plonker accepts a contract which says they are liable for these costs. Watch this space.

[lospilotos]

Spandex Masher,

In 1921 women got the right to vote in my country and until 1964 it was basically illegal to be unemployed. In late 2010 you are now allowed to be openly gay in the US military. As I recall it, around 1995, a one way ticket to London cost something like 600 GBP since you could only buy one-way tickets in Business Class. Of course airlines could pay for everything then. Newsflash!!! Things change...

I´m not a woman nor gay, and I´m sure you´ll come up with something witty to comment on all of the above, which I´m looking forward to having a good smile about. But that´s really all your comments in this thread are worth, a big smile.

Would I have loved to have had everything paid for me? Of course!
Did I have a choice? At this point, not really!
Have I earnt my right hand seat of the B737? Definately!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Irishpilot, in 2020 will you happily pay for something that used to be free just because it's ten years from now?

How about if I charge you for parking in your own driveway because it's now ten years after 2000 and I own a public carpark. How does that sit with you?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

lospilotos,

Ask yourself why things have changed. Do you really think that airlines are only able to survive these days because you paid for your type rating? Much respect to you then, thanks.

Or do you maybe think airlines are taking the easy way out by getting you top pay for some of their costs? Much respect Mr CEO, you've achieved survival by using your employees to partly fund your airline.

I´m not a woman nor gay

I bet you're a really good driver then.

[stansdead]

Dear all,

I would cut Lord Spandex Masher some slack.

His arguments, in my opinion, are sound. Just because what he says may sound old fashioned doesn't mean they're irrelevant.

A zero hours, no guarantees of income contract means one thing only: heartache going forward. Ever tried getting a mortgage on such a contract when your 25 year old girlfriend gets pregnant (congratulations by the way)?

Our profession used to be worth something.

Now, it seems youngsters are happy to get into £100k+ debt in order to live the dream: an 0350z report for NRN-SXF-NRN-ZAZ-NRN or whatever for 5 days in a row. See the World? See a f?cling psychiatrist more like.

What Spandex is saying is spot on. Listen to him when it comes to zero hours, standby contracts.

[lospilotos]

Spandex,

Ha ha, yes I do alright thank you... :)

Your grudge seems to be with that one first person that accepted to pay for his/her (his I guess) type rating. Now, 10 or so years down the line you cannot take that out on all the thousands of good pilots that has gone down that road since.

Of course, the fact that we as pilots do not need any type rating and recurrent training paid by the company is not the only reason as to why FR is making approx 300 MEUR profit this year. It is an overall commitment to cutting costs and having a lean operation along with a smart business model that is the reason for that.

What I´m trying to say is that there is no use living in the past. Why not just enjoy the fact that you did not have to pay for your training and get on with it.

PS. Personally I´m happy to let women vote, but they should not be allowed to drive.. DS.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

lospilotos,

You say you'd rather not have had to pay for your type rating. What about when you have to pay for the next one and the one after that and the one after that? Can you? Will you?

I agree, there's no use living in the past. We can't change what has happened. However, we can influence what is going to happen.

Lets not F up the future anymore than it already is.

Stan,

Thanks, I though I was the only one. Watch out for snipers though:suspect:

[go around flaps15]

Some guys going into Wizz air pay for their type ratings. I know two personally. I know guys at Easy that paid for their ratings on the way in. Jet 2, FlyNiki, and I met a guy some time back that paid for his training on the ATR into Aurigny. This is is'nt just Ryanair. And would'nt it be great if this was,nt the case.

As d105 said given the amount of input you have on this thread and this industry, it would be interesting to know where you are coming from.

However you have the right to remain completely anonymous, and I for one respect that.

[d105]

Stan,

I completely understand where you are coming from. Granted we should not have to pay for a type rating, we should be able to have a steady income, and all that without getting into debt first.

But the problem is when it comes to principles versus reality, reality usually wins. And unfortunately for me, ending the sixth year of my young carreer, and many other young pilots this is/was the reality when we got into aviation.

Coming from a small country with no national carrier. Ryanair was the best option at that time. Frankly speaking, it was the only option. So I, and along with me many others, swallowed the bitter pill. Because any job and thus any income still beats sitting around at home with no income at all.

Spandex,

You're right in your convictions. And believe you me I wish our industry still worked the way you describe it. But as you say there's no point living in the past.

Not pointing this comment at you specifically Spandex. But how fair is it really to pick on people trying to make the best of a situation that isn't even of their own making. A lot of older pilots love to reminisce about the "old" days. Well, they were there at the very beginning when the rock started rolling down the hill. When I look at the situation now, I can only conclude they did nothing at all to stop it early on.

edit: The reason why I'm still working for Ryanair is because I'm one of the lucky few who managed to secure a base position within driving distance of my actual home. I understand my situation is the exception rather than the rule, and thus all the comments that I make should be viewed in that light.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

-15, yes I know, like I've said before I'm not Ryanair bashing. I'm not taking up an anti Ryanair stance. We just happen to be having this discussion on a Ryanair thread.

Yes it would be great if nobody had to pay for a job but it's the very fact that people do pay for a job which is allowing this sort of con to flourish!

The next airline to take it on board will do so having seen the amount of bright, young pilots banging on O'Leary's do with their thirty grand.

Etcetera...

[lospilotos]

Spandex Masher, et al.,

I have previously given that question a great deal of thinking when it comes to principle vs. reality. In my point of view, no, I would not pay for another type rating, at least not up front, perhaps in the form of a training bond.

With 500 and some hours mainly SE prop, if I was in charge of recruiting, I cannot say that I would have hired myself even, spent tens of thousands of EUR/GBP to train myself and then see how I would have turned out. With a couple or thousands of hours on the 737, good sim sessions and line checks, I believe that I have proven that I´m up for the challenge. And since I now meet the requirement for airlines that do not charge directly for a type rating, I do not see the need for future type rating costs. Some draw the line between initial training and a TR. I have drawn the line after my first TR.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Lospilotos, you'll have to humour me now.

The future, a question (some parallels with todays industry):

- No airline is recruiting pilots with your TR, they sold all the TRs they can and are now bloated with pilots most of whom are on standby.

- The rot has set in and every other airline in existence now requires that you pay for a TR, it is the only way in the door. Hell, why not? We make more money that way.

- You can't stay where you are because you too are on twelve months of solid standby and are not getting any cash in the bank.

What do you do?

- Leave the industry - I ain't paying for another TR - don't look back at your lost 'investment'.
- Stay where you are, untenable, more lost investment.
- Pay for another TR, it's the only way in, more 'investment' to lose.

Ok, I am exaggerating what I think will happen but you can't deny that it could/will happen if the current trend remains unchecked.

[greenhopper]

Sorry to hear about the demise in your pay and conditions . I left the company because people like yourself prostituted yourself to the company resulting in my terms and conditions being hacked .I have no regrets and I am glad I made the move,::D:D

[McBruce]

Spandex,

I think your looking at this from the wrong end, consider the new guys who have very little leverage entering this industry. It should really be the collective on the other side that are protecting the industry from employing such practises. As a workforce they can have a say if they choose to do so, such as the BMI/EZY guys when that dreadful p2f scheme was implemented. Those guys put a stop to that. If they hadn't then who knows, but I suspect the situation for guys looking for employment would be worse.

The older ones that complain about this are generally the ones that should have been doing something instead of nothing when airlines were testing the waters. Just my opinion and I had to pay for my type as well. I don't regret it as I was able to break into this industry. Will I consider paying a type again? I very much doubt it. I've already turned down a possible position based on that very requirement. Citing those reasons.

[stansdead]

Now, listen carefully: STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought we were talking about standby periods, which are unpaid.

Buying a TR and such practices should not be linked. And I must say that I've been fortunate enough to never pay for a rating.

RYR take advantage of people on BRK contracts. I sadly believe that paying for a rating is here to stay. After all, it's been going on for 20 years.

What's new is that people buy a rating on the basis of a ZERO hours contract and then sit around waiting for the phone to ring in the winter months. Lunacy.

Go skiing. Oops, can't do that, spent the cash........

..... Don't do it!!! Keep the money in the bank.

As LSM says, there is a surplus of qualified B737 FO's available.

(Before anyone points it out, I'm a Captain for an Eastern European pink A320 airline. But ALL our employees AND contractors have a basic wage. No flying? FO: 2000€ a month. Captain: 4000€ a month. However, ALL our pilots do at least 50 hours a month even in November. Reality is that everyone still has an income.)

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well lets just look at it from both sides.

Yes, I agree, those who could have tried to prevent it should have done. No doubt about that in my mind.

Those that actually paid for it shouldn't have done.

Either of those actions would have prevented the blooming of the rot. Fair enough?

Now, on the first point, what are the collective doing about it these days? The collective that counts some who paid for a TR amongst it's numbers. Diddly squat, that's what. Why?

You see, it's a very cynical point of view to claim that we should have done something to prevent it when you are not doing anything to stop it continuing now!

[d105]

Spandex,

You can't say those examples have equal responsibility. The rot should've been stopped by the workforce the very moment it began. That's where the true responsibility lies.

You seem to be happy to ignore the fact that people coming out of training, having paid for their initial training as well, need to have an income. Uncertain, limited or few hours are still hours. Like I said before, people do what they need to do in order to survive. Anything is better than sitting at home, with no income at all, on basis of principle.

If anything is cynical, it's blaming the current youngest generation of pilots for problems the older generation could've prevented in the first place. But because they didn't, by now those practices have spread wide and far. If you ask me, should Ryanair go bankrupt tomorrow, any number of other airlines would try exactly the same tactics.

Now if the Irish government would grow some f'ing balls and actually force union recognition onto Ryanair, along with a serious investigation into the social dumping that is Brookfield... Things might actually change a bit.

As for the collective you talk about Spandex. Things have actually been tried. About 5 years ago there was the famous "uprising" of the Dublin pilots, who at the time were unhappy with their T&C's. If I remember correctly they actually took Ryanair to court. The result was zero. Except for the fact that nearly none of the FO's involved made it to captain, and of the captains involved practically all have disappeared from the company.

The best an individual can do is leave. Something which I plan to do myself if I get a better deal somewhere. Will I be bitter towards the guy who takes my place? No. because I know what position he is in and what he needs to endure. So I won't blame him for keeping the Ryanair machine going. Because he, like me and all my friend, does what he needs to do.

With due respect Spandex, as I believe you're certainly worthy of that even based on your seniority in the industry alone, I don't think you'll ever fully get what I'm saying. Because you've never been in the situation many youngsters find themselves in today. I'm not sure you're able to fully relate.

I'm not attacking you personally with that by the way.

[stansdead]

D105,

With due respect to you and everyone else, no-one should "find themselves" in £100,000 debt in order to attain a job.

Actually, it's not even a job. It's a zero hours contract. Worthless. Less than worthless in fact. It's lunacy.

Temporary Christmas shelf stackers are quite possibly making more, bearing in mind lack of debt servicing, in a shop this year than some BRK crew.

Until people realise this, the game is up.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Nothing personal taken, or given.

Believe me I understand their position. I also understand how that position has been literally forced upon them.

We can argue all day about who is to blame for this situation, the bottom line is that everyone is to blame. Those who brought these schemes into being, those who did nothing to stop them happening (although you indicate that efforts to stop them have since failed) and those that partook in them.

I'm not talking about an action against an individual airline as you've mentioned but a complete cessation of these pathetic contracts and deals.

They only exist now because they keep getting fed. Yes they should have been stopped before they started but that isn't the only way to skin a cat. Chop it's head off, now!

[McBruce]

speaking of the good roster, I heard our new bases in the canaries are 5/2 - 5/3, so our good roster is slowly being killed.

[DirectDIKAS]

McBruce, seriously, down to 5/2? WTF. The canaries are a serious commute back to the UK, already unworkable on a 5/3, if every other week is going to be a 5/2 this is going to reinforce saying "no" to the command upgrade which is what FR are relying on to keep themselves with sufficient captains. Its going to be an interesting summer season

[zerotohero]

That cant be right, if its 5/2 5/3 and your doing routes out of there that are 3-4 hour sectors you will go out of hours very quickly, or have tons on standbys.

Tenerife does sound appealing, and I mean to live there and not commute, could go home the odd time on the 5/3 by swapping a day so making it 5/4 but really just base there full time.

[RAT 5]

F14. "Good roster, sleeping in your own bed every night." I think you'll find that many crews do not live where they work and thus are not in their own bed every night. From reading threads over the past year it would seem that many spend their 'days off' commuting to get to their own bed for only 2 or even 1 night. It's been told that some F/O's have forgone command to stay at home rather than be posted to the ends of Europe on 5/3 and precipitate family breakdowns. It's also been reported that base swaps to be at home for both parties is mostly rejected. I'm sure the 'own bed' propoganda covers only 50% at most. Perhaps those on the inside can correct me.
I still find it hard to understand the concept of being self-employed, not allowed to work for anyone else, no guarantee of work/income, having to give notice to leave and being compelled to be on duty for no pay. Extraordinary. Paying for your job is one thing; working for no pay is another entirely. And, how can you give notice to someone who does not employ and does not guarantee you work? Does RYR offer the same in return?

[Callsign Kilo]

What is it with you lot? 10 pages worth of the pitfalls with the Brookfield contract within Ryanair. Same issues expressed around this time every year, each year they become more and more exacerbated. And everybody still argues about it.

1. No one moans in the summer when we are doing 80-90 hrs per month. If anything I hear people complaining that they are bollexed and can't get any time off!

2. No one moans when they first get taken on as a cadet, whizz through line training and fly their little asses off at the expense of more expensive FOs.

3. The UK and Irish operation has become a seasonal one at best. With high tax rates, stagnated growth, vast competition and the recession; I can't see it changing unfortunately. Yet what percentage of the airline is/wants to be based here?

4. The Brookfield Contract is here to stay. MOL is a regular Houdini and will magic his way out of anything to suit his purpose. The current Ryanair contract stands at €28000 basic and half sector pay for FOs. It would be a ****e side less if the powers that be turned round and told Ryanair to employ all their pilots directly. Actually, what you would probably see is around a quarter to a third of FOs being laid off completely and the rest being placed on seasonal contracts a la Jet2.

5. People now joining seem to have no expectation. I have mixed emotions on this one. For one I am glad that people have a sense of reality however a cadet that I spoke to just yesterday was only too prepared to be sent to any outpost whatsoever and perfectly accepted that he may be looking at a lengthy spell in the right hand seat. He was only 2 minutes in the company and he was admitting that he would probably be gone in 3 to 4 years anyway. Is this the type of candidate Ryanair now want? - I willing to bet so!

6. EMT is now a TRTO and has been for some time. Nice little business which will continue to do very well, even after the last 737-800 rolls out of Seattle, the growth ends and MOL heads for the hills after cashing in his remaining shares!

[ryanairpilotSTN]

MugaBELLEW was in the STN crewroom on Tue before 6am pressing flesh. I asked him and he told me:-

1. All the new bases will be on Apr-Oct 5/4 roster and Nov-Mar 5/3 roster. That includes the Canaries. Apparently all places are filled now for the islands.

2. Limited leave all Dec 2010 due xmas ops. Very few on month off which will affect Dec hours. Many off in Jan on month off and unpaid leave which should help hours for all.

3. No more OCC courses. Anyone in FR knows where to call him in STN and most have his mobile number!

[wayupthere]

Apr-Oct 5/4 roster and Nov-Mar 5/3 roster

The other way round maybe?

[jedy]

Apr-Oct 5/4 roster and Nov-Mar 5/3 roster

The other way round maybe?

I think that is the way but don't forget that you will only be granted leave during winter months so in effect you'll be working on a 5/3 pretty much all the time. So that is our nice roster gone.

Did you forget to ask him about the new nice contract for the Canaries. Massive cuts for everyone, or did he fogot to mention that.

New Ryanair deal: crap roster + no money and not benefits whatsoever.

oh!! I think he also forgot to mention that soon all bases will follow.

[Callsign Kilo]

RyanairpilotSTN - I hope that you said "thank you" personally for his nice memo. It maid me feel all warm and cozy inside!

[VJW]

I've been offered ACE base, but waiting to see contract before answering....lets see what happens.

[go around flaps15]

Thought you were a true company man Callsign! I detected sarcasm!:}

[beachbumflyer]

Correct me if I'm wrong.
New hire FO's end up 100k € in debt after paying for TR (line training too?).
They pay for the hotel during training and uniform. Then, they're based in
the ends of Europe on stand by all the time. No fly no money. No crew meals. Water?
I think you guys need to see a psychiatrist, or you have no respect for yourselves.
You guys are hurting yourselves now and in the long run, and the profession, too.

Good luck.

[VJW]

beachbumflyer something you didn't quite get right. Type rating is 30k, and while expensive, if people are in 100k debt 70k (unless they did integrated and were 100k debt prior to paying for type) odd is due to FATPL and people remain in this debt even if they get BA, EJ, Flybe etc etc.....

To get into BA or EJ as a cadet you need to go via an integrated school or CTC (which may now be integrated). These FATPL courses are in the region of 100k alone when all said and done, and if you get a free (bonded) type rating, money spent by the cadet for FATPL with a type is 100k either way!

Forget about a few hundred bucks for uniform or you're own water now, the cost from zero to bum in right seat whether you pay for type rating or not is probably the same!

Not the best company in the world, who's arguing that, but can't argue it's not a bad start! Especially for me as I started in 2008 - to get 2000 on type during recession wasn't too shabby I thought!

[757_Driver]

The cost to the right hand seat is most definately NOT the same. I did my training from start to MEIR for about £20k-£25k (which was all my own money, not debt - as I saved up for many years), whilst still in my old career and I didn't walk away from that career until I had a job offer. (a job, not some micky mouse zero hour contract). Yes I had to pay for my rating, as unfortunately most do these days but that was another £15k and it was based on a real job with a real salary, which I had a contract for, in writing.

People need to get a bit of self respect and actually plan ahead. Someone in a previous post mentioned 'finding yourself 100k in debt'. Unbelievable, nobody FINDS THEMSELVES 100k in debt. This isn't like someone who lost a job in a recession due to no fault of their own. This is people who made a concious decision to do all the training without thinking through the consequences. If you can't afford to service the debt then you shouldn't have taken it on!
I agree that then having had a dawning reallisation (which people should have had BEFORE committing to all the debt) then maybe the ryanair thing looks better than nothing - however I still can't see that. A further 30k of debt for what? certainly this brookfield contract thing isn't a job, theres no guaranteed income, and even more cost as most people (juding by this thread) are incurring living costs way way away from home.
Unlike some I don't take solace in others misfortune, but really, if you are up to ears in debt and not earning anything whilst paying for accomodation in the butt end of europe and want to blame someone for the situation, then look in a mirror. You knew what you were signing when you paid the money.

I suspect at some point the irish government will grow some plums (or be given some by its new european paymasters) and put a stop to all this anyway. Certainly in the UK IR35 would kill all this, and I'm pretty sure that brookfield would be borderline at best under UK employment and contract law. Minimum wage would also be a consideration in the UK too.

[VJW]

757 you are quite correct in most of what you say, I certainly don't deny a lot of what you said.

What isn't correct mind, is the idea that every FO in RYR alone is in 100k debt.

Like you I worked full time at the CAA as is happens studying for my licences etc and finished with a FATPL with MCC owing 8k. Bearing in mind my situation where I had a good steady job anyway, and the fact I'd had to go modular to be suit my needs, of course the likes of BA and any other airline that paid and/or bonded me wouldn't have been interested as I'd not been down the integrated or CTC route.

Ryanair was my first interview, and by paying £25k for my type, I owed £33k ish with a bum on the right seat.

757 - My point on my previous post is accurate though, for people studying full time taking out a loan for full training etc.

For approx 100k you can:

Go modular and pay for a type rating (and have change for sure)
Go integrated and get lucky enough to not pay for one
Worst case- go integrated and pay for one - which lots have done.

I think perhaps we're arguing the same point, if you chose your school (s) wisely going modular and end up paying for a type, it's actually cheaper then having gone integrated in the hope you end up with BA etc...Definitely was for me no question.

Back to my initial statement directed at beachbum, not everyone in RYR is 100k in debt, and not everyone's mummy or daddy paid for their shinny jet rating!

[as17]

To be fair, I think December has been particularly bad for standbys as not many people have annual leave or their month off now. I don't know any FOs in my base with annual leave or their month off in December. However in January, February and March plenty of us guys have time off. For some reason they seem terrified of handing out leave around Christmas and New Year- I don't know why, it's not like people are going to skive off leaving not enough crew to operate. Perhaps it's just the 19th century "Scrooge" mentality they have in Dublin towards their staff?

Myself, I have all of my annual leave and my BRK month off in Jan-March. This is a little worrying as I've not flown much this month. However I knew this was probably going to happen as it has for the last 3 years, so it's my own stupid fault for not saving up over the summer when I blew all my money on women, fast cars and shoes. Ah well, I guess it will only be the one skiing holiday for me this winter, but I've only myself to blame for that!

[Mikehotel152]

I just ploughed through the last 10 pages of this 'argument', which is no mean feat with my appalling internet connection. Some of it was interesting and enlightening; the usual 'only dumb guys pay for type ratings' debate less so.

I remember someone suggesting that the Ryanair rostering system is designed to man all flights at the lowest possible cost to the company. Is that right? Who told you that? Everyone in my base, BC included, reckons the current system is costing FR a small fortune because so many people are arriving from out of base while based pilots sit idly on standby.

As for my personal experience of working for FR, it's a mixed bag of good and bad. Overall, I'm happy to be employed doing the job I should have started in my twenties, rather than my thirties. But let nobody think that you earn a good living at FR. Pay and conditions are terrible. I don't mind buying my lunch or my uniform, that's petty cash. What annoys me is lack of pension etc.

As for hours, I appreciate there's a good variation between FOs in terms of hours, but my situation is 'okay'. I use the word carefully. I should just about scrape 700 logged hours for a 12 month calendar year. I have already had a winter month 'off BRK' and I've got more time off to contend with before the winter is over. I expect the spring and summer to bring some good news, but last year none of the 'bumper' months brought in over 75 hours, so I shall temper my optimism. with a good dose of reality. In my experience, even a good 'rostered' month tends to degenerate into 2 standbys a week once each new week is finalised.

I decided to join FR despite my misgivings over the management style because of the tales of 900 hours, advice from many pilots at other Airlines and my exhaustion of other options. The 25% shortfall of pay isn't the end of the world in a recession - I'd rather be employed - but it does severely dent my desire to build a career at a company in which the management treat the staff with utter contempt.

Low(er) pay, non-existent benefits, idiotic and inconsiderate rostering and basing decision gives me more stress than the joy of the day to day job can ever hope to counter. The sad thing is that the issues that upset me about FR could be remedied at no expense to the company, but it chooses to operate an unhappy ship out of sheer spite. Meanwhile the company sits on more money than it can hope to spend. Tragic.

Just my humble opinion.

MH152



Edited to apologise for the rant.

[beachbumflyer]

So, how much longer you FR pilots are going to put up with this?
If you all want you could change a lot of things.

[d105]

Rostering works through mysterious ways. I have it from PB himself that rostering attempts to keep all pilots within 5% of each other. One of the reasons why it sometimes seems like base pilots are on constant standby and out of base pilots come and take hours away from the based folks.

Haven't done less than 820 hours either as FO or Captain at a central EU base. Explain that?

Again. Ryanair is a company for the young folk. Get in, do a command if you can or want and get out by the time you're 25. There's 40 years of your career left to spend with a major airline if you can get it.

Plus, the RYR experience does count for something. Haven't seen any of the big airlines do a winter operations with non-precisions into fields like Carcasonne, Bergerac, Larochelle, Gothenburg etc...

Get in as a cadet. Get your hours. Get out.
if you don't fall into that category, Ryanair is not a good option for you.

[Mikehotel152]

820 hours

Lucky you! But it's simply not the case in the UK/Ireland.