Logbook entries for second Captain in heavy crew ops, JAA, CASA, FAA??

[9 points]

A few questions for the experts:

1. As the second Captain on an augmented flight do I log the time as P1 or P2, command colum or co-pilot? I believe the JAA is very strict about there being only one PIC logging PIC time.

2. Emirates 900 hour yearly limit requires only logging time at the controls for the augment pilots. This is not a JAA thing so I can just log it JAA style block to block even if augmenting?

3. What does SPIC stand for?

Thanks

[411A]

I use an FAA license with a foreign validation for our ops, and when a heavy crew is needed (generally, two Captains, one First Officer...however, can be the other way around, IE: one Captain, two First Officers), I personally log only the time whilst in the LHS.
However, for pay purposes, clearly all hours are indicated.
The local CAA?
Ha...the only thing they knew about 'heavy crew' was perhaps those that tipped the scales at over 200 pounds.:}

[oz in dxb]

As an augmenting Captain you should only be entitled to log command time for the time you are in the seat. Only the operating Captain can log the whole flight time.

Some guys want to build up faster command time and log 100% of augmenting time.

Two Captains cannot log 100% of the flight time simultaneously as only one Captain is in command.

Oz

[9 points]

Actually I think it might be wrong under JAA rules to even log 50% of it as command. I think we might have to log it as co-pilot or specialsist, anything but command. That means putting 100% of it in the co-pilot colum. I know the FAA permits 2 pilots to log the same period as command but I believe JAA and CASA both ban that.

Anyone know for sure?

[pacificgypsy]

If you are a captain with Singapore Airlines you will log 100% P1 time. Doesn't matter if you are rostered as commander or relief captain.

[STBYRUD]

Just to throw another aspect in there: If someone was flying as PICUS, he would log his time as P1 while the actual PIC would be allowed to log the entire time as P1 as well, the standard JAA log doesn't even differentiate between PICUS and PIC. In that case two people are logging full P1 time, so why shouldnt it be possible as relief pilot?

[9 points]

STBYRUD
I'm no expert but the JAA logbook I use does not state that PICUS can also be considered P1. When I first started using it I made that assumption because the PICUS is positioned under the P1. But I now believe my assumption was incorrect and have gone back and ammended the times to keep them completely seperate.
A colleague of mine who was a JAA auditor for several years has told me that the auditors manual is very specific on this subject, it bans logging of P1 by multiple members of the crew, only one person is allowed to do it. They are required to check this specific issue during the audits, so he tells me.
What I would like to see is an official document quoted stating what is required by JAA or CASA.

From the CASA website:
Pilot in Command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time.
Note: CAR 224 requires that for each flight the operator shall designate one pilot to act as pilot in command.
This may not really answer the question though.

Anyone care to contribute from the JAA rules?

[Capt Fathom]

If you are a captain with Singapore Airlines you will log 100% P1 time. Doesn't matter if you are rostered as commander or relief captain.

Interesting concept. Logging Pilot-In-Command time, when not actually, well, the Pilot in Command!

In this case, if there is a stuff up, which Pilot takes responsibility?

Yeah right! I didn't think it was you.... Mr (P1) Relief Captain!

[helen-damnation]

In seat, PICUS in the P1 column, the rest in the P2. If they didn't want a Captain in the seat, they'd have 3 F/O's, so it's PICUS/P1 for me :ouch:

[Intruder]

FAA rules are contradictory, since both actual PIC time and "handling" time can be logged as PIC time, depending on which clause you read. I take the conservative approach, and log PIC time only when I am the designated PIC, and log SIC time when I am the handling pilot when another captain is designated PIC.

Unless you're trying to build time for an ATPL, it doesn't really matter. Airlines specifying PIC thresholds for hiring purposes are "looking" for PIC time that is actual "Command" time -- the designated PIC for the flight.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

SPIC = Student Pilot In Command

[9 points]

Thanks to Thechitt...
SPIC had me stumped.

[Dai_Farr]

I think most log book layouts were never designed to accommodate the peculiarities of todays ultra long haul operations.

Most of the basic operating regulations (and uniforms) stem from the mercantile marine, and in this regard, it is perhaps to the maritime concept of command that we ought to return. After all, a ship's master is master throughout that ship's voyage. Even when asleep.

This concept will never apply to short or any other haul that is hauled entirely within a flight time duty period. And there are different flight time limitations sets depending on your type of operation.

The idea of you logging P1 when "in the seat," with the designated Commander logging P1 throughout has its merits as a sort of procedural solution to an old page design. A more "honest?" lexigography (it's late!) might be to write: "P1.S" (think it, don't say it - The P1.S being TAKEN here as meaning First Pilot/left-hand-seat-operator under supervision!) in the P1 column. You do this, anyway, on those other occasions when the left seat operator is NOT the commander, such as check flights. On those occasions, the examiner logs the entire flight as P1.

In Civvy Street, seat occupancy is very rank dependant; left hand seat operating is four-bar generals territory, whereas right hand seat operating can be done by a captain, a first or second officer.

I would think it less logical, therefore, for a qualified captain to log P2 in the specific case of operating left hand seat in a relief mode.

In RAF maritime, and possibly also transport (unsure of that one) circles, pilots would not only swop handling and non-handling roles, but would also swop seats.

As for: "who's in charge, here?" resolution, if the deep brown sticky stuff has hit the air recirculation device, if the person in charge is still on scene to answer questions or deal with the problem, then let him/her earn their pennies. Otherwise, you've all got more doleful paperwork to keep you busy! I would doubt anyone's logbook would have been written up yet, and even if it was, the man from the Ministry is going to come down and dwell with whoever signed for the aircraft at the airport of departure.

The alternative would be for a different long-haul log book design. A4? A5? Portrait or landscape? Minutes or decimal hours? Mine are all the same size and they're all lined up correctly. I prefer them that way. Organized. Just like my towels, my roster and my tinned food!!!!!!! You didn't know your boss made alphabet spaghetti? Just eat a tin, wait a day and out comes a contract (or a roster) you can trust!

Face it! At the end of the day, the only people you personally keep a logbook for are your grand-children, whether you have any yet, or not. You know they're the ONLY ones who matter. They're certainly the only ones who'll listen to you admiringly!

PS does anyone manufature FIVE bar uber-capitano epaulettes?

[7Q Off]

In my company we fly 1 Captain and 2 or 3 FO for long haul with one of the FO allways qualified as PIC.

On the logbook Captain allways log his time as PIC. The FO is Second in command even seated in the left seat. When I rest he is in charge of operating the aircraft on that moment but the captain still is the Pilot in command and the guy designated by the company to act as commander during the flight.


I am Captain so I log my time as PIC even when I am eating or sleeping in J class.


When I used to fly as SIC on the A340 or the 747 I was rated as PIC so I can cruise on the left side but by our rules I logged my time as SIC.

If we fly with 2 captains (something very very strange) only the guy that the company designated as PIC on the flight plan can log his time as PIC. But this is a very strange situacion. It must be aproved by the union first because our contract does not allow it as a normal thing. This happends once in a while. Maby 5 to 10 flight a year of 100000 flights we perform. To be honest, nobody cares. :E

And here in my country an FO can fly his leg on the left side as long he has a PIC rating. Depends on the company and what is written. Some years ago we used to do it allways as captain discretion. We dont do it any more because of the general experience level of our FO. As in most of the places there is a general shortage of experienced crews here.

[Pugilistic Animus]

SPIC = Student Pilot In Command

Lousy Acronym:}

[9 points]

The only reason I asked this question was to be bullet proof at a job interview.

Having asked pilots from all over the world and having received feedback from CASA I have decided to do the following.

I will only log PIC/P1/CAPTAIN status and time in the command column when I am the designated PIC for the flight, there is only one (apologies to the US).

I will only log PICUS when it really is PICUS specified by the companies training department.

As a cruise relief Captain I'll log it as cruise copilot and put the time in the copilot column.

No interviewer anywhere in the world will be able to accuse me of exagerating my command hours, period.

Problem solved.

Thanks to all who posted. Very interesting reading.

Cheers

[parabellum]

Yeah right! I didn't think it was you.... Mr (P1) Relief Captain!


To be fair SIA don't employ cruise captains and they don't really care what you log as, by the time you get to B747/A380 captain your log book has been scrutinised enough and you won't get there if you don't have the right balance of hours.

After ten years on the -400 with SIA my flying came out at around 70% Commander, 30% heavy or double crew.

[pacificgypsy]

"Yeah right! I didn't think it was you.... Mr (P1) Relief Captain!"

And the last few years on the 777 would have been closer to 50% augmented or double crew ops.

As for SIA's internal monitoring system, all Commander's flight time is recorded as P1 irrespective of whether rostered as the commander of a flight or in a 3P/augmented/double crew ops.

As far as responsibility goes.....the entire crew would be scrutinised if there were an incident.

[9 points]

Furthermore, I just applied to an airline in the australia/asia area and on their website they specified that the command hours should include only hours for which you were "ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft".
Seems like some airlines take this issue seriously and don't want second Captain hours in the command figure.

[chrislikesblue]

What about the first officer's logging in heavy operations with relief crew? Is he entitled to log the full block to block time under JAA? Does someone have the link to this regulation in JAA?

[PPRuNeUser0190]

JAR:

1. When you are relieving the Commander, you can write it in PIC. If you are in a pilot seat & the commander is also in a pilot seat you write it as Co-pilot time.

2. Augmented crew:
- if you are commander of the flight: log all block time (even if not at the controls)
- if you are any other position: only log time at the controls

Note: there can only be 1 commander on a flight, but there can be 2 captains.

[chrislikesblue]

Ok now its clear,thanks a lot.

[RandomPerson8008]

FAA-

I log the entire duration of every flight as SIC (second in command).

If I was not in one of the front two seats for takeoff and landing, I also log the entire duration as IRO (International relief officer). If I was in one of the front two seats for takeoff and landing, I leave the IRO column blank.

I'll never log PIC for any portion of the flight unless I'm a captain and have personally signed the flight release and aircraft logbook (meaning there can only be one on any flight). I'm aware of the arguments which contradict this practice, but choose to take the conservative approach.

This way, I can easily separate the time I spent on IRO/relief duty if I ever need to do so but it still counts toward my total time and SIC time for purposes of pay, experience, and flight time limit considerations.

You never know what a particular company or government agency is going to require you to report or omit in the future. In my opinion, the most important practice is to keep a record of which flights you acted as IRO and which filghts you didn't so that you can separate them in the future if need be.