BALPA - UK facing shortage of pilots

[FlexGate]

So it is not only the FTO's saying such things... :ugh:

Link:
BBC News - UK facing shortage of pilots, union Balpa warns (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11691204)

The UK could face a future shortage of airline pilots because of the soaring cost of training, a union has warned.
The British Airline Pilots Association says the number of recruits to flight colleges is falling.
Aspiring pilots can no longer count on airline sponsors to fund costs of up to £100,000 to obtain a commercial licence, it added.
A Balpa campaign is pressing individual airlines to shoulder more of the responsibility for training.
The union says it is now almost impossible for young people from middle and low-income families to get into the profession.
Most airline training schemes are said to have come to end in the late 1990s and companies also recently stopped paying the cost of obtaining the additional "type rating" licences required to fly specific aircraft.
Lobbying MPs
Captain Mark Searle, Balpa's chairman, said: "Once trainees have their basic licence they increasingly have to find another £25,000 to £35,000 to pay for the 'privilege' of building their experience at the controls of a big jet and get their type rating.
"This is plain wrong. These young pilots are desperate for a job and are now being charged by airlines to fly fare-paying passengers. Airlines should be ashamed.
"This is also bad economics for the UK. With the economic downturn showing some signs of reversing, Britain's aviation industry is going to wake up with a pilot shortage because of the disgraceful way we have been treating young hopefuls."
Pilot Martin Alder, a Balpa member, told the BBC there was need for about 400 new pilots a year in the UK.
"In the past airlines would offer sponsorship so young people who have the right academic qualifications and aptitude would go along and be tested for their ability to fly and their training would be paid for," he said.
"It would be about a two year course and then they'd arrive at the airlines and start working for a living, paying back that investment."
Meanwhile, Dena Dove, from Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training Centre, said the industry had also begun to lobby MPs for aviation training to be exempted from VAT, as is the case for other educational courses.

[CaptainSox]

Thanks for the post. I think time will tell but I bet the FTO's will be loving this.

Lets hope it brings somthing good to the industry, its about time!! :D :ok:

[jez d]

An accurate and worthy article, so don't know why you are banging your head over it FlexGate.

Pilot cadets are afforded precisely diddly-squat in the way of student recognition in the UK.

Airlines' HR departments are turning into profit making centres and won't invest in their employees' training.

EU VAT laws are interpreted in the UK differently to pretty much every other EU country, meaning we pay VAT on all aspects of training, while other countries only impose it on certain elements, or not at all.

The upshot? UK PLC will simply decamp to other EASA-regulated countries with lower oversight charges and the once highly respected UK flight training industry will be conisgned to the history books.

[RVR800]

If there is a shortage then the market will sort it out.. i.e the sponsorship deals will return...the much heralded pilot shortage is often stated to make the case in the media for people to start to train (an advertising ploy) but in the case of BALPA it makes sense for them to canvas for employers to train because the whole pilot training is becoming available only to the wealthy - the tax thing has always been an issue and that would help ...

The politicians see this (pilot traing) tax revenue as a tax on the wealthy (its seen as progressive) They dont understand that many are borrowing to do this ... and are NOT wealthy...

[stuckgear]

hmm.. i'm not sold on the BALPA warning.

there are pleantly of pilots in the UK, however, a lot have decided not persue a cockpit job as the return is not commensurate with the input. and secondly with the poor T&C's offered pilots with time on type are looking elsewhere in the globe for career and financial rewards, as well as an actual job per se.

instead of more recruits needed, some of the crass and frankly insulting terms offered out there could be revised to take up a significant quantity of pilots that already have the license in hand, but can neither find a job that will offer terms worth considering, or to become actually employed by an airline, or terms worth sticking around in the UK for.

there *will* be shortfall of UK pilots simply becuase its getting to the point that financial input over return and security just isnt worth it and those that do have ToT can often get better T&C's and a better lifestyle elsewhere.

BALPA are to blame for that as much as the carriers who offer dire terms.

[CaptainSox]

Yes I agree with stuckgear, BALPA saw this coming for years and did nothing about it. So now when it has effected the top brass in the Industry they are willing to only now do somthing!! What goes around comes around....:}

[Lord Spandex Masher]

"Once trainees have their basic licence they increasingly have to find another £25,000 to £35,000 to pay for the 'privilege' of building their experience at the controls of a big jet and get their type rating.

This is from Balpa?!

1. No they don't.
2. Why a big jet?
3. Have Balpa not heard of Turbo props? You know, traditionally the way we all used to break in to this industry.

If it wasn't for the greedy "I want one and I want it now" spoilt brats of today none of this would be happening.

Balpa, get a grip.

[VinRouge]

THere are plenty of mil guys queueing for the exits at the moment.

[FlyingTinCans]

I agree BALPA have been very slow, in fact unforgivingly slow out of the starting blocks to address this problem, however its better that they are putting this in the public domain now rather than never at all.

The media is a powerfull machine, BALPA should use it more often.

[Serenity]

Masher - spot on!! :ok:

now we know why all the pay to fly schemes are blocking the way for general industry progression , BALPA endorse them!!!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Serenity, yes it does seem so.

These young pilots are desperate for a job and are now being charged by airlines to fly fare-paying passengers. Airlines should be ashamed.

If they are that desperate they would be taking any flying job.

Not only should the airlines be ashamed, but these young pilots and Balpa should be too. It has all happened because of them.

Friends of mine spent years flying air ambulance and air taxi stuff before they got a break and made it into an airline.

If things had stayed the way they were then career progression for everybody would be so much faster.

[Atlantic_Conveyor]

The real scandal is that there seems to be NO shortage of pilots willing to purchase a job and then work for a salary that just isn't viable.

It's great to see that BALPA are pushing this issue and that major media groups are interested in the story. However, the real issue is not a shortage of pilots. It's one of flight safety, as previously risk averse airlines clamber to recruit experience free rich kids who are willing to purchase airline jobs like trial lessons.

[Mikehotel152]

Masher - spot on!!


If they are that desperate they would be taking any flying job.


Are you serious? What jobs? Have you looked at the job market for newly licensed pilots in the last 3 years?

Comments like that merely show your ignorance of the current state of the industry.

[Sir George Cayley]

As Lloyd Grossman used to say "Let exaaamine the evidaaance"

Most UK airlines have a seniority scheme. So they know the age of the pilots when they employ them and they can predict the age at which they will retire.

If they have a good grasp of the market and understand the lead time to bring on to line new equipment then predicting crew resources is mathematics.

So why has there been a cyclical surplus/shortage since I was a Nipper?

BA have suddenly decided they need 80 bods to fuel their workforce. Surprise surprise.

HR - doncha jus luv em:ok:

[Whippersnapper]

You have to ask why some of the worst Ts&Cs are at BALPA recognised companies and, more significantly, why the one major UK airline with a pay to fly scheme has one of the most vocal BALPA reps on here, always banging on about what a great job they've done and how great that company is to work for...

[wubalaj]

Here's a thought............

Problem: Balpa starting to worry about its future as pensions meltdown threatens to divide and polarise the uk workforce who pay their subs. At the same time they suddenly clock senior members will not be paying subs anymore on retirement following the harsher tax regime. Cue big red panic button.

Solution: I know, let's start to take an interest in the poor afflicted pay to fly/self sponsored who will surely be employed in a few years somewhere in the industry (even though before the policy was that more pilots=weaker negotiating position for the union therefore let the little Herberts get on with it).

Sorry guys, industry, CAA and Unions have all had their chance to embed a cost effective strategy to give the best people from all backgrounds the possibility of successful career. They have all failed

[captplaystation]

Er ? ? Good Morning ! ! horse / stable door / bolted.

Having singularly lacked the b@lls to get involved in Ryanair (and I am talking a few years back when IALPA was imploring them to have a recognition ballot, not now, which is FAR FAR too late) having failed to curb the recent riding roughshod over the norms (not you NSF!) of industry standard contracts for new F/O's at Easy, and having always been at best ineffectual (if not even in some cases pro management) at places like BMI, it must be said that this smacks of self interest/panic on the part of the BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssociation.


They seem (sometimes) to do a half decent job for these BA guys, for the rest of the UK airline industry, it varies from marginally better than nothing to total waste of time. Twas always thus.

[angelorange]

Business section in today's TIMES (p 53 "New Pilots "priced out" of Training").

This is an issue but only part of a wider change in our industry. Flying has always been an expensive game but it has become much worse for both newbies and pilots wanting to progress up the food chain. The biggest changes of the past 15 years include:

1. The preference for "Integrated" courses sold by FTOs to airline HR managers to the exclusion of Self Improvers who opt to go down the Glider Towing, Instructing, Turboprop, GA route. This has been a nice little earner for Approved FTOs and the airlines are happy paying very low wages (in some cases nothing for 6 months) to the newly hired cadets.

2. The dilution of pilot experience in UK. In part this is as a result of (1) whereby experienced Aviators rarely get the opportunities to progress onto Jet operators. With 911, Sars, Volcanic Ash, Economic Downturn, newly qualified pilots and self improvers have had a very hard time getting any work. And by the time things turn around they are out of currency or getting "too old" for some recruiters.

3. A huge reduction in the number of Military trained pilots coming onto the market (remember 1960s RAF had some 1/4 mil personnel and now around 40k). Yes 2010 SDSR has brought cutbacks and the future may mean more UAVs but overall, less military trained pilots have joined the airlines cf 1980s.

4. All FTOs have found it very hard to recruit highly experienced Instructors. Most Integrated students never consider instructing and having spent £100k, they would rather spend on a Type Rating than £7k on an FI rating. The UK CAA's early adoption of JAR CPL meant no more 700h requirement and hence fewer Instructors being trained up.

5. The dreaded LOCO TRSS/Self Sponsored Type Rating schemes seem to have replaced traditional Employee Bonded agreements. This has become even worse with the advent of Pay to Fly pax. Clearly more about money than Flying Skills or best practice. Many newbees now expect to have to pay for their first airline job! And BALPA have advertised these schemes in THE LOG (BALPA journal).

6. LOCO Airlines have reduced their Pilot workforce Ts&Cs and forced Majors to do the same to compete. A, B, C and even D scales. In real terms the Airline Career now is far worse than in the 1970s. And yet today we hear the BBC spouting Ryanair propoganda about £150k salaries for 18h a week work! The reality is FAR different! One of the main problems is Fatigue and lifestyle that puts many youngsters off. Even Sullenberger told Congress he knew of very few Airline pilots who would recommend their offspring get into an Airline pilot career.

7. Some of the FTOs could do with a shakeup of their proceedures to improve their output standards and create aviators not just button pushers. Humans are good at doing a lot of things but make pretty poor system monitors. Thankfully the CAA, Cranfield University, the RAeS and many in the USA/FAA have done work on Upset recovery aids but this has yet to trickle down to FTOs who have taught TRs the same old way for years - enough to pass an LST but little more.

8. And what is the FTO/Airline/CAA response to any forthcoming shortage? LESS is more - hence MPL !


The media need to heed what is happening in the USA post Colgan and do some investigative journalism to see how cadets are treated and how experienced pilots are often being ignored.

[Sir George Cayley]

At a recent CAA safety conference one of the issues highlighted was Loss of Control.

Worth thinking about in view of current types, automation, training and children of the x-box age who become children of the magenta line.

Sir George Cayley

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Are you serious? What jobs? Have you looked at the job market for newly licensed pilots in the last 3 years?

Comments like that merely show your ignorance of the current state of the industry.

You don't get it do you Mike. Why do you think the industry is in it's current state?

I guess you're part of the "I want it now" crowd with comments like that. There is no way you'd take a job on 404 earning bugger all a year as an air taxi when you can just pay through the nose and hop straight into the right seat of a big shiny jet.

You see what happens when you do that? There is now no job for the newly qualified pilot because the air taxi job he could have had is still being filled by the air taxi pilot who can't move on to a turbo prop because the turbo prop job he could have had is still being filled by a turbo prop pilot who can't move on to a big shiny jet because people like you have paid to jump the queue.

[doubleu-anker]

It isn't rocket science is it.

Boom and bust and all the knock on effects are still with us which seems to be every 8 years in varying degrees.

Boom. Many students being trained, heaps of jobs. Bust. Very few being trained, very few jobs. Always has been since I have been in aviation.

[Microburst2002]

I see that in the UK, as in other places, FTOs are the MAFIA ruling in the aviation industry.

Want to know why?

Because as in other places, the UKs pilot association, BALPA, is so worried about the poor, poor FTOs who are going to go broke because there are fewer and fewer crazy young lads ready to spent 100 K pounds for nothing in return.

Poor, poor FTOs What are they going to dooooo?

Here comes BALPA and says: let's reduce training taxes! or....
there will be a pilot shortage!


Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh
Pilot shortage????

When did BALPA sold its sould to devil?

What they have to say iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis:



1st SELECTION

2nd TRAINING

3rd RECRUITING


THE COST OF TRAINING CAN BE SHARED AND/OR BONDED.
THERE WOULD NEVER BE SHORTAGE OF PILOTS
THERE WOULD NEVER BE OVERSATURARION OF PILOTS


BALPA should lobby to change regulations so that TRs can't be done self sponsored and ban pay to fly.

Pilot shortages never occur. Only shortages of type rated experienced pilots, which is quite a different thing.

The goddamned FTOS are killing us!!

[justanotherstat]

You see what happens when you do that? There is now no job for the newly qualified pilot because the air taxi job he could have had is still being filled by the air taxi pilot who can't move on to a turbo prop because the turbo prop job he could have had is still being filled by a turbo prop pilot who can't move on to a big shiny jet because people like you have paid to jump the queue

Well said, here-in you have nailed the problem on the head :D:D

What are you going to do about that BALPA???? Well we all know the answer already..............:ugh:

[stuckgear]

BALPA should lobby to change regulations so that TRs can't be done self sponsored and ban pay to fly.


or.. now here's a thought...

if a carrier doesnt want to pay up front and bond a new hire, then a TR from any JAA(EASA) approved training provider be accepted, not only one by a specific selected provider (or internal one) that charges three times the market rate to the trainee.

Ergo: it can be considered that *if* an airline wont accept a TR from a JAA(EASA) authorised facility, then the carrier is in no uncertain terms expressing that it has no faith the regulator's authority and approvals. which then doesn't say much for thier own AOC.

that is a simple piece of action that would start to restrict the damage to the industry.

BALPA. way behind the power curve.

.. horse bolted gate..

[nigegilb]

BALPA carries quite a bit of weight in the media, so it is significant in that "there must be a looming shortfall" if BALPA say so. I think a global shortfall might well be in the offing given expansion plans already announced by mid-east and asian carriers. This could be good news for all, if they have to ratchet up their T&Cs to get suitably qualified candidates from the West to apply. This could result in a response by Western airlines to retain their staff, by improving pay over here.

My first full recessionary cycle in the airline industry, but from what I am hearing over at BA, their assessment is for 6 clear years of profits, (with the usual warnings applied). Many people expect BA to continue to recruit in the next financial year, so things look much more optimistic now than they have for a long time. Toss in the recent changes to tuition fees which could easily result in grads struggling with 70K debts on leaving university and all of a sudden the 100K one-stop route to a pilot qual starts to look like pretty good value.

Maybe BALPA are playing a canny game, by underpinning current pay negotiations! Who knows..?

[Clandestino]

If it wasn't for the greedy "I want one and I want it now" spoilt brats of today none of this would be happening.

I'm not trying to exonerate 'em; they are quite guilty yet it's not their fault only. There were always those who wanted to jump the queue yet in the days of yore, they couldn't. I remember a couple of years ago the collective bemusement in my outfit when we first got the word that the ZFT TRed guy would be joining us. We wondered how can anyone get chopped between successful sim and base training and concluded it was some poor soul whose company went bust just at the wrong time. Then it turned out he paid for his TR @ Toulouse. Shock and awe was a bit subdued when we learnt he was closely related to famous politician. We wondered where was the world going to, when sufficiently rich & famous could buy themselves TR.

A few years later, we know.

[Davjet]

According to the British Airline Pilots' Association the number of people learning to fly commercial aircraft is falling.

"Once young people could enter the profession through airline sponsors'' said Captain Mark Searle, BALPA Chairman. "But now they have to fund their own initial training which can cost up to £100,000.''



Up until the turn of the millennium, many airlines used to sponsor cadets who wanted to enter the industry. Gradually as a result of cost cutting this was stopped, with British Airways being the last to drop its programme in the aftermath of September 11.
However airlines did still pick up the cost of the additional licence pilots needed to operate individual aircraft, such as a Boeing 737.
But this has ceased within the last five years, leaving cadets facing a further bill of at least £25,000.
A top-earning pilot, at the controls of a Boeing 747, can expect to earn £110,000 a year, while a junior recruit on a smaller plane would start at around £25,000. The union says the industry average is around £60,000.
BALPA says it has been contacted by potential pilots who have decided against joining the industry because of the cost of training. Flying schools have also told the union that they have noticed a drop in applications.
"This is plain wrong,'' said Captain Searle. 'These young pilots are desperate for a job and are now being charged by airlines to fly fare paying passengers. Airlines should be ashamed.''
Pilots retire at 65. According to the aircraft manufacturer, Boeing, aviation will need 448,000 new recruits over the next 20 years, just to replace those who have left the industry.
In the short term there is a plentiful supply of pilots, because of the number who were laid off during the recession. But if the dramatic recovery of aviation in recent months continues, the industry could find itself short of pilots by the middle of the decade.
However BALPA's analysis was challenged by Simon Buck, chief executive of the British Air Transport Association.
“In the current economic climate many airlines can no longer offer direct sponsorship but, if pilot recruitment becomes a significant problem for UK airlines in the future, this policy may need to be reviewed," he said. "Currently we are unaware of UK airlines experiencing difficulties in recruiting pilots.”

[turbine100]

BALPA with some of the FTO's who are dis-advantaged compared to CTC and Oxford should start a well advertised campaign to encourge those not to pay for type ratings, pay to fly or positions that dont pay salaries during line training etc or something similar that is constructive.

BALPA are fully aware of the issues and its often discussed, however its difficult for them to find something to bargain perhaps in this area.

Its not right to have large amounts of personal debts / liabilities instead of something fair with airline operators. I honestly thought the recession would have stopped people from finding extra borrowing to pay for type ratings or poor contract positions with some of those low cost operators. Another issue is how people live whilst doing a type rating / line training and the extra borrowing with hardly any proper income, if any at all.

Obviously Oxford / CTC would not perhaps agree having contracts or associations with operators. At the end of the day, Oxfords product which was integrated courses of good quality with high promise of a proper job with good terms has gone and having to pay for it.

The other issue is the recruitment advertising, under equal opportunities, BALPA's legal department should be looking into this too and see if anything could be done in the UK. Its not fair for companies such as CTC or whomever to directly send pilots into an airline via contracts, when obviously that airline should have advertised for all to apply meeting a fair requirement. This would not happen in other industries as it would unfair or possibly illegal.

I just dont understand why people do not group together and say NO to airlines regarding such issues and poor T&C's with BALPA and FTO's via a well advertised campaign and give it a go. It may eventually even help those experienced pilots with employment T&C in the long term too.

[AOB9]

Upfront; I'm not an expert..........currently training for my PPL for fun. Could it concur that the industry becomes dominated by (wealthy) boys/girls that have had enough money to pay for their training?

Is it possible that this scenario could result in cockpits being full of people that are not necessarily the "best fit" for the job? The strict recruitment policies for cadets in the past ensured the "right" person was selected for training.

It was asked elsewhere on this forum " How many pilots that begin training actually make a career out out of it?, to which the answer was " those with the most money, 'cos they can keep repeating modules until they eventually pass".

That doesn't inspire me I have to say, although if I had 100K I would probably have a go myself.

[Dylsexlic]

I agree with most of what is being said here about the cost of training for new pilots. But one of the biggest reasons for shortages of pilots is the lack of commonality between licensing jusrisdictions i.e. FAA and EASA.

It's a nonsense and the Unions would be better off forming large, co-ordinated pressure groups to have a licensing standard accepted for worldwide common licensing rather than parochially protecting their own parishoners.

Then, of course, we would have a glut of pilots on the market and rates of pay - already depressed - would be pushed even lower, sigh. :D

[Doug the Head]

It shows once again what bunch of complete dufuses BALPA are! :mad:

Instead of trying to contain the ever increasing flood of pilots eroding T&C's in the industry, BALPA are prostituting themselves to the highest bidder: the airline management! Get ready for 'BALPA endorsed' slavery P4T and P2F schemes in the future! :yuk:

With friends like BALPA, who needs enemies? :=

[Ganzic]

What amazes me, is why do these rich kids want to fly when there is no longer any money in it?

I love flying, so I am doing everything at my own pace and will not get upset about not getting a jet job, an FI at my local club would be excellent, as it will keep me flying and may be even some income can made out of it.
I doubt I would be giving up my non-flying job any time soon.

Unfortunately the world now a days is driven by greedy, dollars in the eyes people, who only care about grabbing a couch now, and to hell with the future.

Lots of guiltys there, never one.

But don't worry, this situation will resolve itself. Currently industry is fed by already trained laid off with in last two years pilots, once they run out, airlines will start scratching their heads...oops what just happened, can't get pilots who can fly....
May be a repeat of a bufflo (god forbid) crash should send regulators and the industry into a spiral dive, and at the end there are two outcomes possible.

One : airlines will start training there own pilots and tie them to jobs for 5+ years with little pay.
Or industry will go into meltdown and you won't see anymore british pilots at all.

Anyway it's just my opinion.

[D O Guerrero]

Rich kids? Spoilt Brats?
You people, especially spandex masher, really know how to generalise don't you?
When finishing an Integrated course, most of these cadets are faced with almost no option in where they go. If Flybe are recruiting, which more often than not, they aren't, the terms and conditions are so poor as to make it almost pointless to get a job there. I worked my arse of after my training to get a job and I would have taken one anywhere including as an FI or air taxi pilot or whatever - but these jobs in light aircraft and turboprops simply don't exist. So what's left? Ryanair or Easyjet.
And if you cast your minds back BA cadet pilots were finding themselves in the RHS of a 707 in their first job way back in the 70s. No-one seemed to mind that did they?
Don't blame individuals by hurling ignorant personal abuse at them - they are dealing with a difficult situation in the best way they can. No-one wants to fork out tens of thousands of pounds (in my case a lot of money that I worked my arse off to earn) for more training. The options are simple - take that job and pay for a TR or start filling in the Job Seeker's Allowance form to keep Lord Spandex sweet. The utterly ineffective BALPA have done nothing to stop this and neither have other pilots - so please don't blame newbies for something that is beyond their control. Lord spandex masher - perhaps you could have done more to stop it? I don't know, maybe you did. But perhaps its better to find out the facts before you lump everyone together as spoiled brats. Remember how much you wanted to be a pilot when you were young?

[stuckgear]

When finishing an Integrated course, most of these cadets are faced with almost no option in where they go. If Flybe are recruiting, which more often than not, they aren't, the terms and conditions are so poor as to make it almost pointless to get a job there.


D O Guerrero,

Couple that with the only realistic available channels to those coming out of an integrated program are those channels which *that* FTO is affiliated with; channels that open to integrated students in other FTOs are simply not open.

[fireflybob]

And if you cast your minds back BA cadet pilots were finding themselves in the RHS of a 707 in their first job way back in the 70s. No-one seemed to mind that did they?

D O Guerrero, Yes that's true - I was one of them LOL

But things were very different then. Often you were part of 4/5 man crew on the flightdeck. We joined as Second Officers and, after the type rating, much of the line flying was observing from the jump seat and assisting with such tasks as getting the weather and/or occupying a flight deck seat whilst the Senior First Officer (who also had a Flight Navigators Licence) did the navigating across the pond. The Captain and SFO had eons of experience and were able to demonstrate a high professional standard. This one also picked up almost through osmosis.

I have touched on this on other threads but what we need, in my opinion, are centres of excellence for basic flying training along the lines of Hamble in the 1960/1970s. Cadets were selected after a rigorous selection procedure and the integrated course of ground, flying and simulator training was second to none. They were training and selecting future airline Captains (not just "pilots") and the course was geared accordingly. It wasn't just a question of making the minimum statutory requirements - the ethos was one of constant and never ending improvement.

Now I am not saying that some of this doesn't go on at the current FTOs but, I think you might agree, if someone turns up with the requisite cash then not many FTOs will turn down the business even if they think the person concerned might not be ideal airline material. Equally if the airlines need pilots then most will accept someone who turns up with a shiny CPL/IR in his hand if thats all thats out there.

In summary, I don't think the comparison between the situation in the 1960s/1970s to the current situation is a valid one.

[nigegilb]

I find the use of the term "rich kids" similarly insulting. UK Government now defines "the rich" as those with taxable earnings above 37,401. Hardly rich by anyone's standards, but rich enough to lose child benefit and have your offspring paying 9K per year for the privilege of getting a couple of lectures a week at a British university. You can hardly blame parents for trying to help their kids if they choose to become professional pilots by providing financial assistance, now that the self-improver option is pretty much gone. It doesn't make them rich kids either, would you describe university students graduating with debts of 70K rick, just because they were unlucky enough to be deemed middle class and rich by their government?

I was lucky enough to receive my training for free by serving in the military, I find the endless bashing of cadets perplexing, especially when most of the cause for the degradation of T&Cs in the airline industry is a direct result of pilots refusing to stand up and be counted. Self-interest has always been at the heart of it and always will.

[M.Mouse]

Does anybody here live in the real world?

BALPA should do this, BALPA should have done that, BALPA this that and the other.

Just how should BALPA stand up to the big bad airlines and force change?

The world is very simple in this area, supply and demand. IF, a big IF, a shortage looms then the big bad bosses will have to sponsor training and pay salaries which attract more people. While people are willing to sacrifice so much to gain a licence and work for a pittance or pay to fly the world isn't going to change anytime soon.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

1. You people, especially spandex masher, really know how to generalise don't you?
2. When finishing an Integrated course, most of these cadets are faced with almost no option in where they go.
3. If Flybe are recruiting, which more often than not, they aren't, the terms and conditions are so poor as to make it almost pointless to get a job there.
4. I worked my arse of after my training to get a job and I would have taken one anywhere including as an FI or air taxi pilot or whatever - but these jobs in light aircraft and turboprops simply don't exist. So what's left? Ryanair or Easyjet.
5. Don't blame individuals by hurling ignorant personal abuse at them - they are dealing with a difficult situation in the best way they can.
6. No-one wants to fork out tens of thousands of pounds (in my case a lot of money that I worked my arse off to earn) for more training.
7. The options are simple - take that job and pay for a TR or start filling in the Job Seeker's Allowance form to keep Lord Spandex sweet.
8. But perhaps its better to find out the facts before you lump everyone together as spoiled brats. Remember how much you wanted to be a pilot when you were young?

1. Yes, of course it's a generalisation as I don't know everybody. But I know the type!
2. Ask yourself why, I've already shown the reasons. There are no jobs because progression has been strangled because spoilt brats want to jump the queue. If that hadn't started then things would be the same as they were 2 decades ago.
3. Silly statement, see number 4.
4. So you would have taken a job anywhere except Flybe? These jobs would exist if the queue jumpers weren't jumping the queue.
5. The best way to do something is remortgage their parents house to get thousands of pounds to pay for a job? Again, if this kind of thing hadn't started because of spoilt, impatient, queue jumpers then there would be jobs.
6. Simply don't do it then. If nobody paid for a job then the airlines would have to rethink their strategy wouldn't they? But as long as you lot of spoilt brats continue to queue jump you only serve to perpetuate the very situation that you bemoan.
7. The options are simple. If nobody paid for a job then there would be jobs that you don't have to pay for.
8. Yes of course I do. But, I wouldn't and couldn't have paid thousands of pounds to jump the queue like a spoilt 'I want one now' brat. If only you knew what my first flying job was.

I'll post this again, just for you.
You see what happens when you do that? There is now no job for the newly qualified pilot because the air taxi job he could have had is still being filled by the air taxi pilot who can't move on to a turbo prop because the turbo prop job he could have had is still being filled by a turbo prop pilot who can't move on to a big shiny jet because people like you have paid to jump the queue

[D O Guerrero]

Oh dear... You can't reason with the unreasonable.
Yes I would have gladly taken a job with Flybe - I was speaking for others. I was lucky enough to be able to afford to be paid 17k a year.
So tell me Spandex, what have you done about it? Presumably you resigned your job in disgust. As you say, if everyone were to do that then the problem would be solved.

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

nigegilb and D O Guerrero thank you for standing up for cadet pilots! I can't believe or understand the point of view of others on this forum that bash cadets.

I (as probably every pilot before me) have always wanted to be a pilot since year dot. I studied hard in school, college and then university. When I came out of university, I wanted to start training, so I looked around at the highest quality FTOs (CTC, OAA, FTE...). I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but in order to achieve my lifetime goal, the only way to fund training was to get myself an all mighty loan (because these days, there is no such thing as airline sponsorship in the UK). So, I come out of training with CPL/IR, what next?

My options at this point;
1. Pay £5-6000 for an instructor rating and hope for a job (single engine :hmm:)
2. Pay £7500 for a A320 type rating with EZY job (jet engine :O), but struggle on loan repayments.
3. Pay £20000 for 737 classic rating with Jet2 (dated aircraft and expensive)
4. Take the morale high ground and find a non-flying job in a recession (struggling to pay back loan)

Now, I put it to those who criticise cadets for paying for type ratings which of the above options would they pick if they were in my position?

As I see it there is one clear option. I am going to be in financial trouble anyway, so I might as well go for the one that fits my life goal, oh yeah, airline pilot. So, option 2 it is then!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So you think I should have resigned my job so you didn't have to pay for yours? No thanks I earnt it.

Why should I do anything about it, it isn't me causing the problem is it?

Why would you pay for a job?!

[macdo]

The problem for Guerrero and his cohort is that at their "age and experience" end of the spectrum, everything is about the 'oppotunity' of the future. For the greybeards amoungst us, we look back at the 'consequences' of our earlier oppotunites.

It is difficult to see the problem from each others point of view, but what is true is that the barrier to entry for becoming an airline pilot has never been higher.But, even now, there are oppotunities for the dedicated and flexible. It is easy to blame youth for taking the 'easy' route to the RH seat of a jet. If credit had been easy or daddy had made a wad on his house, I'd have probably tried to avoid the years in GA, certainly my pension might look healthier than it does now, who knows. But then I would have missed out on some remarkable adventures.
But taking the easy money oppotunity has had the unfortunate consequence of bu**ering up the well trodden route via GA,Taxi,TP to big jet and all are suffering because of it. Ex MIL and ancient BA cadetships are a red herring to the argument as they were always there as a minority and acted as the 'grammer school' of aviation since they were a nil outlay entry to the industry selected on ability.

I am pretty certain the PTF glut is coming to an end as credit/money tightens, airlines are becoming a bit more shy of employing cadets for various reasons and maybe one or two FTO's will go to the wall. My own company has even sponsored some cadets on a well financed scheme which see's them go thru the TP years as well as basic training, so there is hope for the future.

What I will be glad to be rid of, is the attitude of entitlement expressed by some (but not all, by any means) cadets. Its a byproduct of the times, but it is most unwelcome on the flight deck.

[Deano777]

I'm with Lord Spandex on this one.

The only reason these PTF schemes, and SSTR schemes are out there is for one reason, and one reason only - because people are dumb enough to pay it. Simple as that.
It's the same reason why they charge you £6 for a cup of tea in a service station, why? Because we're dumb enough to pay it.

It isn't the airline's fault, it's the individual's fault. What I want to know is where is all the money coming from for these people to spend £130,000 on full training? I don't get it.

You may ask "what are these people supposed to do then"? They come out of an integrated course with £100,000 worth of debt, they need to do something so it then spirals out of control. Well don't do the training if there are no jobs. The flight schools are full even when we are sliding into recession and beyond. It's completely bonkers.

[Microburst2002]

Sorry but you are wrong

There will always be individuals ready to pay or do anything to become an airline pilot. Specially if they are fooled by the FTOs and believe that there are jobs awaiting them when they get the licence. They are not to be blamed. Well, only in part, specially those who pay to work thus stealing someone else's job.

By the time they have spent some 80,000 euros, they realise that this is not true. The only way out: forward. Pay more and more to get more chances.

But it is never enough, because the saturarion of frozen ATPLs and CPLs is so extreme that the "price" of having a chance has become ridiculous: paying for flying with pax in the cabin.

For the airlines this is good, of course, but the real winners, the ones who put the money on their pockets are the FTOs and TRTOs.

I think the best solution to the "problem" of pilot shortage (experienced type rated pilots, I mean) and to the costs of training pilots that airlines incur is a compromise between self sponsor (frozen ATPL) and airline sponsor (TR).

If things are made according to:

1st Selection
2nd Training (self sponsored frozen ATPL or CPL, MCC...)
3rd Recruitment
4th further training (TR...)

Thus airlines would have good, talented, disciplined pilots (selection of the best) with a good training (at the best FTOs) for a reasonable cost (half self sponsored). They can have a good product for a reasonable price. They can also dictate the rate of pilot production by the FTOs. And the TR would be made already minded for a specific airline.

In addition, only the selected ones would spend the money. those left behind would save it!

Depending on the current situation, ATPL would be airline sponsored (with bonds) or self sponsored (no bonds.)


According tho the current:

1st Training (self sponsored frozen ATPL or CPL, MCC...)
2nd further training (TR...)
3rd FO "job renting" (line training with 500 hours or similar)
4th maybe proper recruitment and a proper job

what airlines have is pilots whose talent is basically unknown in most cases but clearly poorer in average as there hasn't been any previous selection. This product which quality no one knows is then put to fly in the airline at the airline's risk. Moneywise seems a good system, except if one day something happens.

In this system, 100 guys pay a fortune and then only 10 get the job (paying more than the others).

The FTOs are to be blamed.
Of course, they exist because of the JAA regulations, which suck.

These are to blame!
But how can you fight them????

[Deano777]

Sorry but nonsense Microburst2002

It doesn't matter how you dress it up, or dress it down, if cadets didn't pay for the schemes they wouldn't exist. It really is that simple.

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

Okay Deano777, I will give up on my ambition then. Give me another way I am meant to become an airline pilot if I don't pay for it myself!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

There may be a looming shortage of Pilots but most of the UK airlines recruiting are looking for Pilots to fulfill overseas basings (EZY,DHL,FR) etc.
If things get tight new wannabies may have a choice of going to an airline where they have to pay £££ for the rating or an airline that pays it for them, pays a good wage, and bonds them just like in the old days:\

[Deano777]

Mi EASA Su EASA

You are totally missing the point. The point is not for people to not pay for their training, the point is why do all these PTF schemes and SSTR schemes exist? Afterall, we all have to pay for our training. It's the "post training" costs we're talking about.

Mi EASA Su EASA your kind of quick fix attitude is what is very wrong with the industry today, it's not about giving up on your dream, it's about being smart with your training. Whilst we're on it you could always do what I did, pay for it myself (fATPL), pay for an instructor's rating and then apply to airlines the traditional way.

Good luck.

[Microburst2002]

If there were no referees, football would be a much different game.

You could ask the players to kindly not kick their opponents, but as long as there there were no rules and no referees, many would play football more like rugby, or worse. The game itself would be degraded.

But if you set the rules and enforce them, football is not degraded. It is not perfect, but if works reasonable well and we can enjoy it.

[retiredOK]

Having retired years ago, all the comments being made now were made in 1967, same problems, same frustrations, same relative costs with fewer airlines to apply to. It will get better simply because fewer trained military pilots, no sponsored training from the airlines and a massive retirement bulge and expansion in aviation in the pipeline. Stick with it.

[wiggy]

So some have lots of money to spend on their goals of being an airline pilot and some (the FTOs and some airlines ) are willing to facilitate the same. Given the relatively restrictive nature of UK labour laws - (you pretty much can't strike against something unless it's a direct dispute between you and your employer ) what exactly is BALPA meant to do to fix the problem?

[stuckgear]

They come out of an integrated course with £100,000 worth of debt, they need to do something so it then spirals out of control. Well don't do the training if there are no jobs. The flight schools are full even when we are sliding into recession and beyond. It's completely bonkers.


Deano, it is bonkers.

When pilots are getting laid off, airlines are going tango uniform, T&C's are ever decreasing as carriers look for a few points on cent per passenger seat mile, people are still lining up to sign on the dotted line, get their parents, or their own house in hock on the fallacy of available jobs out there. A pilot shortage...

Look at the title of this thread; BALPA citing a shortage !

That'll get more cadets through the doors of the FTO's, more people getting in debt on this fallacy.

Then when push comes to shove, with a newly minted ticket and 200 hours, the stark realisation they've been sold a pup, and that ticket is just going to be a ticking clock of liability, so any offer no matter how poor is the only way into a flight deck, or that debt has nothing to show for it.

Bonkers. Absolute stark staring bonkers. And those that feed the fallacy ?

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

I agree Deano777 that the situation is bad with the P2F schemes after training in order to get these type ratings, but I have recently finished with a major FTO and the options available to me are as follows;

1. Pay £5-7000 for a Flight Instructor rating and hope there is a job for me in a recession, as you suggest; or
2. Pay £8000 for a type rating on a A320 with EZY; or there is always option 3.
3. Having got myself in debt to the tune of £60k, give up on being a pilot because it wouldn't be the "traditional way".

Please tell me which the "smart" choice is (if you were me). Would you really pick option number 1? 2 is rather tempting!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Don't you think it was a bit daft spending 60 grand on a licence that is worthless unless you spend another 30 grand* for the add on?

It is people like you that are perpetuating the problem that you have the gall to complain about.

The smart choice would have been to save your 60 thousand quid, get another job, save a bit more and then go and get your CPL/IR when the market is right. That would be the smart choice but unfortunately it seems that you fell for the FTO spin and now you think you can come on this board and moan about your choices instead of addressing the real problem. You.

Also don't forget that the "contracts" at ezy and Ryanair are crap and that you'll only get paid when you fly. Have a look at the Ryanair standby thread.



*8K is a bit short of the real figure you'll need to pay for a job at Ryanair or ezy

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

Actually Lord Spandex £8000 is a very acurate figure for a job at Easy, and yes £30k is the going rate at Ryanair (but I'm off to Easy, so £8k for me, contract already signed!).

Also, how long would you have liked me to have waited for in your ideal scenario? Its been a while since airlines sponsored cadets training, can count on one hand the opportunities that have arisen post 2001 (almost 10 years ago!!!).

Would you rather I'd started a one man strike against P2F and watch everyone else around me achieve their personal goal by paying. Don't think that would achieve much!

[Deano777]

Mi EASA Su EASA

If it were me, I would go with option 2.

It's too late for you now but what I mean when I say be smart with your training is to target your training accordingly. Personally I couldn't go integrated, a) I couldn't afford it, and b) I had a full time job with a mortgage and family to support. But what I did was quite simple and took an hour's research (something most wannabes do not do).

Now I was (still am) old in relative terms to getting into the industry, I left school with no A levels or Uni degree (although I did catch up on a Uni degree later on in life) so I looked at my chances of getting into alot of airlines and short-listed 2. I then looked at ways of gaining employment with these two airlines and ended up with one option. It was this option I chose to target. Then I looked at flight schools to do the training with, and one of them had a "tie-in" with the airline I was targeting - perfect. All I have to do now is get on the course, do well and get the recommendation. This is exactly what happened, I had the recommendation. Next though was the interview and sim check to pass. Having not done an MCC yet I found out what aircraft they did their sim checks on - perfect, now I will target my MCC accordingly. I spend about £1,000 more on my MCC than I would have liked, but hey it was worth it, because when I did my sim check it was a breeze, I passed the interview and the sim check, got offered the job and also got a bond for my type rating.

That's what I mean about being smart with your training, and without the Instructor's Rating on top the whole lot cost me about £49,000, this included all expenses, exam fees, headsets, maps yadda yadda. I also gained employment with no training debt whatsoever (lucky me).

Now if I could do it, trust me anyone can.

D777

[Deano777]

ere ere stuckgear :ok:

[stuckgear]

what exactly is BALPA meant to do to fix the problem


not feed it for starters!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Actually Lord Spandex £8000 is a very acurate figure for a job at Easy, and yes £30k is the going rate at Ryanair (but I'm off to Easy, so £8k for me, contract already signed!).

Also, how long would you have liked me to have waited for in your ideal scenario? Its been a while since airlines sponsored cadets training, can count on one hand the opportunities that have arisen post 2001 (almost 10 years ago!!!).

Would you rather I'd started a one man strike against P2F and watch everyone else around me achieve their personal goal by paying. Don't think that would achieve much!

I stand corrected ref. Easy. Still that's 8K more than you should have to pay isn't it? Just wait until you become expensive to the big orange, then you'll find the flying and consequently your money tailing off.

How long? As long as it takes really. I'm not talking about sponsorship, although that would be a safer investment, I'm talking about the demand for qualified pilots. Unfortunately because of this P2F crap you have broken the cycle of hiring and now there are less jobs available for the newly qualified unless they do what you do and pay more for less, do you see how you are causing this to continue indefinitely? Patience would have saved you 8 thousand pounds at least.

A one man strike would be as ineffective as me giving up my job so you didn't have to pay, as someone suggested I do earlier! What you all should have done is refused to pay for a job. Then the real job offers would have had to be realised by the airlines. By the way, paying for something is not the same as achieving something.

I'm not blaming you personally for this situation but everybody who, like you, has paid for a ****ty contract for instant self-gratification.

Generally, there will never be a shortage of newly qualified pilots available to airlines. There will, hopefully, be a shortage of pilots unable or unwilling to give thousands of pounds to a multi-million pound airline.

Good. And Balpa should be pleased about that.

[stuckgear]

Lord spandex,

i understand your point, ^^

however, conversely, lets say that all pilots in the UK stood together and flatly refused. what then? then simply recruit non UK pilots that will.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well we try to ensure that they don't pay either. Lets look at this as a industry wide problem not just a UK problem, which it isn't.

The only people that can stop this are the 'payers'. All it will take is a brave man to stand up and say no, and if you are clever, insightful and forward thinking you will all follow him, that will instantly cut the head off the dragon so to speak.

Stand together and stop it, only you can do it by refusing.

[SmilingKnifed]

Mi Easa Su Easa et al,

There are still ways of getting into the industry without shelling out, it's just that people often feel they're beneath them as newly qualified fATPLs or just don't put enough effort into networking.

I had absolutely no chance of paying a penny more after gaining my licence as I was already well and truly on my arse! But as I was happy to fly a dated type (your words) in this case a knackered czech skydiving aeroplane as opposed to a 737 of any description, whilst packing parachutes, pulling pints and keeping a sense of humour whilst broke. I was able to not only build multi-crew turboprop hours, but got a recommendation from my boss to his mate in South Africa.

Fast forward a couple of months and I was hooning said knackered czech turboprop around the Congo and Algeria, scaring the life out of myself and learning enough from some tremendous captains to push my meagre skills into the average bracket (where they remain). Meanwhile, my newly type-rated friend found no A320 jobs available for someone with 1 hour total time on the jet (he still hasn't years later) but still claimed I was mad.

When Flybe phoned, the lovely Jo in recruitment found it very interesting that I had a bit of a story to tell and slotted me in for an interview between trips away with work (an old skydiving contact had put a word in) and here I stay 3 years later.

In summary, yeah the money still isn't great, some might say I got lucky, to a point they'd be right, but I maintain I sucked it up, made my own luck, did some really crappy jobs, had a laugh, made some great contacts who still help me out and am able to get a sliver respect from some skippers for having seen the world and some interesting flying. I'd still love one of the jet jobs that you lot are paying through the nose for, but would I swap with you and have it all now?..

Hell no!

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

It would be great if everybody refused the sort of contracts/P2F schemes on offer at moment. But the reality is that this will never happen. In my FTOs holdpool, out of those offered the EZY deal, a very small minority rejected it because they couldn't afford it and an even smaller minority (1-2) decided they would wait for something better to come up. They had the luxury of a well paid job to fall back on, which enabled them to take the morale high ground, which I would if I had a nice job.

So you spent £49k + Instructor Rating (£5-6k) = £55k

I spent £60k + Type Rating (£8k) = £68k

£68k-£55k = £13k

In the scheme of things (my whole career), this is a small price difference and one I was willing to find in order to become an airline pilot.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I sympathise with your situation. But do you understand why you are having to pay to work?

Do you sympathise with the line of people now behind you in the grand scheme of things who can't move onwards and upwards with their careers?

this is a small price difference and one I was willing to find in order to become an airline pilot.

It maybe a small price for you but for the people you have leapfrogged it will be a larger one. Somebody who has earnt, not bought, the right to have your job with it's increased salary (in the old days with proper contracts) can no longer progress.

Lets say the average difference between a jet salary and a t/p salary is 30K a year. The t/p pilot has another 35 years on that reduced salary (ignoring pay rises etc.) which equates to over a million pounds. That is a big price to pay for you to realise your own desires. Notwithstanding the fact that when you would eventually make it to where you are now by the traditional route the salary and Ts&Cs would be a whole lot better than they are now.

[turbine100]

How are you paying just 8K for a type rating?

Is a CTC scheme that's for cadets only?

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

Yes I do feel sorry for people stuck with x-thousand hours on turboprop that want to get to jets, and that is due to cadets like myself accepting the current method into the airlines.

BUT, I'm afraid you have to look after yourself in this game (especially when you have a large loan gambled on it) and I/Nor any other cadet would think I will not fork out the extra £13k to do the job I really want because I feel sorry for people who are stuck with x-thousand hours on turboprop that want to get to jets.

And also, I still had to train hard to get my fATPL. They don't just give you a piece of paper because you gave them a load of money.

I can see your point of view very clearly lord spandex. However, if I didn't accept the EZY offer based on disapproval of the system, then I would be cutting my nose off to spite my face, because P2F would still exist and I'd be out of a job! It will only work if there is a 100% rejection of these deals, which won't happen I'm afraid.

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

Spot on turbine100.

[jackx123]

Apparently short of 50+ captains as we speak. FO entry salary is $34k and they have a massive shortage especially since they plan to expand with 120 additional a/c in the coming 5 years

[Deano777]

Mi EASA

Are you telling me your integrated course (I assume you went integrated?) cost a total of £60k? I am assuming this price includes absolutely every single cost you outlayed including food/accomodation/travel/equipment etc? If so you are a very lucky boy and you are in the minority.

You may well have money to burn but to me £13,000 is a serious amount of money. If you think it isn't then herein lies another inherant issue.

Another thing is this £8k to join Easy is all well and good, but if you don't get hired at the end of your 6 month contract then your Airbus rating with 250/300 hrs is as much use as a used piece of toilet paper.

[DA50driver]

The guys that moved right into a jet job have missed a part of their education that can not be replaced by textbook. You owe it to your passengers to be a well rounded pilot.

We all need to take the business back from accountants and be willing to give it up if we can't. It is hard to tell owners and management to back off, but it needs to be done. (I fight with the owner about bonding which I refuse to allow, much less pay to fly). They have planes and need people to fly them. If we all grow a pair they will have to play by our rules.

[Microburst2002]

Here we face two different issues:

1- self sponsoring; and

2- renting someone else's job

1-
Self sponsoring is difficult to erradicate. It became excesive when we started to be required to by self sponsored type rated. Because then the question was: "On what bloody airplane??" So people had to bet on this or that type.
TRTOs offering this TRs, which should be just ilegal, have made a killing, and we have been the victims (those with the money and those without it).

2-
as a consecuence of the above, FTOs, TRTOs and Airlines have seen a bussiness oportunity and they are currently renting jobs to people willing to pay.


Now let us examine the big difference:
If an FTO offers me training, I pay and then they provide it to me, only they and I are involved.
Same with a TRTO.
But if an airline offers me a RHS job, I pay, they provide it (1 year/500 hours), then there is someone who has lost is job. There is a third party involved in this, who doesn't pay nor provide anything. He only loses his job.

JOBS ARE FOR GETTING PAID

ISN'T IT ILLEGAL TO PAY FOR A JOB?

Have you paid for your ATPL? OK
Have you paid for your TR? OK, I hope you had a target in mind and was well wired
Have you paid for flying with pax in the airline that would have hired me instead for money, or any of my friends without jobs and thousands of hours in the type? Did you? then SHAME ON YOU

[KyleRB]

Remember not everyone doing P2F is a 200 hr wannabe! I have heard of quite experienced guys with 2-3000 hours feeling they have no option but to do it whether it be due to redundancy or frustration with their career progression.

P2F and SSTR both serve a purpose. The TRTOs and airlines secure an extra revenue stream and the "cadet" obtains a rating with relevant experience which often opens doors that were otherwise closed. Both parties feed off each other.

I do not like P2F but I think it is here to stay. All this talk of petitions and lobbying BALPA will not make the problem go away. Easyjet's P2F scheme ended and another airline stepped in. If no UK airline will partake in this scheme the major TRTOs will take the P2F offshore, to Europe for example. They'll do the basic rating here in Blighty and base/line training will be done on the continent. The newly trained guys will still complete their training and return to be snapped up by Easyjet!

There is a lot of hypocrisy and bitch talk amongst pilots, we say "stick together, don't accept such poor T & Cs, boycott P2F" etc etc but in reality when the doors close and we are on our own, we generally do our own thing. We look after ourselves first and forget the rest - it is afterall human nature! As they say the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak! Why do you think beancounters love us pilots? Because we are so easy to divide and rule! The solidarity required to achieve anything meaningful is to some extent at odds with our chosen profession which is highly competitive and brings out a certain atavistic trait in us to survive, almost at all cost!

When I started taking lessons more than a decade ago there were still a few of the old regional airlines about like Gill Airways, Streamline, Air/KLMuk, Brymon, Emerald etc to cut your teeth on. So after getting my frozen ATPL I became an instructor and aimed to follow the well trodden path through instructing/air taxi/regional turboprop then Airbus or Boeing heavy metal. Things changed while instructing, most if not all of the regionals disappeared or merged and the value of a GA background and turboprops diminished. Luckily for me I managed to get a job in corporate aviation where my GA background was appreciated and I eventually managed to unfreeze my ATPL and have fun along the way!

Nowadays airlines sadly do not value single pilot experience, be it instructing or air taxi and many don't value multi crew turborprop experience. Particularly in the latter case, this is a serious mistake and very shortsighted. With the highly automated systems in aeroplanes these days, old fashioned stick 'n' rudder skills are not appreciated. In today's brave new world, the bottom line is king. The precedent has been set by the low cost carriers and others are scrambling to follow. Get adequately skilled labour cheaply and if possible transfer as much of the cost of training to the pilot. That is the way of things now.

I don't blame others for considering P2F schemes, especially when instructing, air taxi and other relevant flying experience have been more or less marginalised by most of the airlines, almost rendering them worthless! A few months back I wanted to try the airlines but at the end of the day I wasn't prepared to spend £30k on one of the schemes, i had too much experience which was totally ignored.

It has never been harder to succeed in aviation and human nature dictates we will do whatever we have to survive/succeed even at the expense of others. That is a universal truth whether we like it or not. Those taking the moral high ground may well ultimately be disappointed and end up bitter and resentful.

[Algol]

Air Asia Apparently short of 50+ captains as we speak. FO entry salary is $34k and they have a massive shortage especially since they plan to expand with 120 additional a/c in the coming 5 years

Air Asia do not hire 'foreign' co-pilots. Malaysian Immigration Dept forbid it.

[Mi EASA Su EASA]

Very good post KyleRB!

Deano777, yeah that includes transport, accommodation, and all the kit I needed, not food though! I didn't burn the £13k I invested it in quality training for my future.

[SmilingKnifed]

Approximately 6 months of your future, until the next willing 'customer' rocks up to give EZY their cheque.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

It's a lovely warm, fuzzy thought to imagine a pilot shortage. But it won't happen....why I hear BALPA cry???? Well I'll tell you...

I met a very well spoken young chap (17) yesterday along with his very well spoken father.... anyhoo, he started explaining how he had finally decided to become a pilot and the conversation went a bit like this...

Me: How can I help?
Him: I'm going to start training next year at Oxford and I'm starting to look into buying a Type Rating as soon as I finish, what can you recommend?
Me: Integrated or Modular?
Him: Oh no Integrated of course.
Me (starting to feel a bit miffed now): Type Rating is a LONG way off....concentrate on your studies and get that shiny blue book first.
Him: Well yes of course but father wants me to do a Type Rating as soon as I graduate from Oxford.
Me: Don't go paying up front for a Type Rating full stop. But if you really must then atleast make sure you have a signed offer of employment in your hand.
Him: Well I thought I would get ahead of the game and start looking now.
Me (the red mist is dawning at this point): Ok, well what aircraft did you have in mind?
Him: Boeing 737
Me: Which one?
Him: Any!
Me (about to tear the guys head off): Ok so what if easyJet offer you a job?
Him: Well great. My first job.
Me: What about the now useless Boeing rating you've just shelled out for and now you're going to have to pay more money for an Airbus ticket!
Him: Well that's life.

I then smiled politely, wished him good luck and walked away before I threw my coffee in his face.

:ugh::ugh:

Sorry to inflict such a long winded dialogue on you folks but I was absolutely mortified. Utterly and completely shocked at what this guy had come out with. Until young toff's like this, spending daddies money are some how weeded out early on then what hope is there for the rest of us. And in summary, because of people like that there will NEVER be a pilot shortage.

In his "father's" defence, he actually seemed very pleasant but totally afraid to say no to his snotty little brat. Bit like the Northern factory owner and his brat daughter in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

God help us.

Evening All

2W2R :ok:

[FamousGrouse21]

I have been reading the forums for a while and hav followed the SSTR / P2F debate a fair bit. At the end of the day its a free world and a free market. Being a pilot is about the most desirable job in the world and a lotta people are willing to give damned near anything to get it. Just for a minute suppose that investing in pilot training was like investing an a business sector... say metals. Would you spend 1 million pounds investing in specialist machinery to extract metals knowing full well that 500 other people have also recently seen this opportunity and will be doing the exact same thing. I'm guessing you wouldn't as you would realise that excess supply would mean - limited opportunities, marginal to poor returns on your investment and at worst no opportunities at all and 0 return on your investment. In pure rational economic terms you would say "Uh uh no way thanks" and find somewhere else to spend your money.

It strikes me that for te majority of the time the above effectively describes the job market for would be pilots. However, training to be a pilot is not investing in plant and machinery to dig up metals for pure economic benefit. Training as a pilot has intrinsic value as it is perceived to be an ace career with glamour and high potential earnings. As a result people training to be pilots will do nearly anything to out compete their fellow rivals in their quest to become a pilot, be that SSTR, P2F spending years instructing / touring Africa looking for jobs. At the end of the day if loads of people weren't desperate to be pilots, none of these services / schemes would exist as no one would pay for their training and certainly no one would consider paying for their own TR.

Its a free world and it would seem that investing in pilot training is apretty dodgy investment most of the time yet people continue to do it (Myself included! :ugh:)

[SinglePilotCaptain]

So what is BALPA saying?..

Where in that article did they say they tried to hire from the pool of qualified pilots?

Sounds like the hiring shortage is just a shortage of kids with $50k to buy a seat on an airline.

[zondaracer]

KyleRB, excellent post. Sadly, I think you are right when you said that you think P2F is here to stay. It will take a serious shift in legislation or something else to make it stop. For example, in FAA land, there is only really one real Pay for Job outfit, and that is Gulfstream International. In the US, there are many who oppose this outfit and their ¨hiring¨of students who paid a tuition to get there. Fortunately, new legislation in the US is going to require 1500hrs for a pilot to get to the right seat of a scheduled airline operation. This will most likely kill the P2F operation in the US, at least that is what many are hoping. Gulfstream International just declared bankruptcy... you´d think that an airline that has pilots paying to be there would do better than that. The biggest opponents to the 1500 hr rule in the US... the airlines, that´s right, because they won´t have thousands of easy and willing candidates lined up at the door for bottom wages and crappy T&C´s, and it will affect the airlines´ bottom line. Good, I say, perhaps things will take a turn for the better.

Speaking about money, I think another stimulus that has aided the success of P2F is the availability of easy loans. Maybe this economic crisis isn´t such a bad thing afterall. If people can´t readily get a loan, the P2F pool will dry up, or maybe that´s wishful thinking.

2 White 2 Red, I liked your post, very entertaining to read, however I´ve had a similar experience at Gatwick when getting a medical and chatting up a couple of other guys. One fellow said he didn´t care how much he got paid as long as he got paid to fly, and even joked and said ¨one quid? ... ok!¨ I almsot wanted to smack him and ask him if he had any self worth! Another one seemed deadset to fly for Ryanair and he hadn´t even started his training. I paid for all my training in cash, without a loan. It took me awhile but I still got it done debt free. I can live comfortably for awhile until I find a job. I quit an excellent paying job with job security and a guaranteed pension after 20 years to follow a dream, but I´ll go back to that desk job before I value my self so low that I would pay for a flying job. I can sympathise with someone who wants to get ahead of the next guy, it is human nature, but ask yourself how much you are worth? Are you worth so little as a professional that you would rather pay to have that label? Oh well, that argument is futile, like I said, unless there is some huge change in legislation, I too fear that P2F/PFJ is here to stay.

[RVR800]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Flight%20Crew%20Licensing%20Transactions%20April%202009%20to %20March%202010.pdf

The above link tells us that in 2009/10 the CAA issued

1,287 Commercial Licences

Rumours of a shortage may be premature :=

[punk666]

Last time there was a shortage of pilots was in the summer of 1945!!

Its cheaper for an airline to hire expats than it is to sponsor a guy from zero to hero.

Plus with the UK government being anti aviation with the increase of green house tax on airline tickets and the CAA increasing their over priced test fees or for license issuance the aviation industry will soon come to an end in the UK.

Richard Branson had on the Virgin Atlantic website a petition against the green house tax because the money wasn't getting used to help lower emissions in any way or being used to help development in Bio fuels and better technology.

[20driver]

People are actually pretty good at figuring things out for themselves. It just depends on your perspective, are you in or on the outside looking in?

For a young person starting to day without doubt, hand over the cash if you can get it and do it all in one wack and go work at Eazy or Ryan. It makes sense. The $$$ difference between getting to a fatpl and adding a TR is a very good deal when you compare what it gets you. It is simply an investment with very good terms attached if it works out. If it works is as much luck as anything else. Being in the right place at the right time is what really counts.

The hair shirt brigade insists that you have to wander in the wilderness for several years , living on squat, and then slowly work your way up. They say it is to make you a better pilot but the truth is they are just looking at what is in their best financial interest.

The smart money, says stuff that. They recognize the big cost is not the TR, it is the years spent waiting for that RHS in a jet. That someone in their late twenties can reasonably expect to be have a command at Ryan is a very good deal. Log some LHS time and the world is your oyster. You could have a LH command in the ME or Asia by the time you are mid 30's and you will be earning 6 figures.

There is an element of pay back here. Pilots have insisted on rigid seniority for access to the better flying. That means the sooner you get in, the better you do. Why spend a few years as an FI, earning diddly, when an extra 30K will get you a position paying 100K 3,4 5 years earlier. Look at the BA thread, everyone says, get in ASAP.

As for the tossers like Lord Latex, ignore them, they will do what is in their interests when it suits them. If the senior pilots in the UK really gave a damn they are about the only group with any leverage to do something. They are quite happy to see the guys at the bottom screwed if it gives them something they want in pay or schedules.

At the end of the day it is supply and demand that sets pay, it has zip to do with who pays for the training. If pilots get really scarce airlines will simply hire GA types and train them. In the 60's AA hired pilots with 200 SEL hours and it worked out. They even hired a guy who had only ever flown a Eurocoupe and was a little vague on what those pedal things did!

As an aside, 411A, one of the posters on this board who has seen it come and go, figures the market is shaping up to return to the 60's.
Might be a good time to get trained and be prepared to travel.

As always,your mileage may vary.

20driver

[Lord Spandex Masher]

As for the tossers like Lord Latex, ignore them, they will do what is in their interests when it suits them. If the senior pilots in the UK really gave a damn they are about the only group with any leverage to do something. They are quite happy to see the guys at the bottom screwed if it gives them something they want in pay or schedules.


Childish name calling aside what would you like me to do about it, exactly?

Ignore P2F and hope it goes away? If I'd had the chance to prevent it then I would, but I didn't. You will find that the only people who have any leverage to prevent it are the idiots paying for a job! Fact.

Please bear in mind that it would be better for everybody, in the long run, if P2F didn't exist, including you and me.

[KyleRB]

Lord Spandex and others,

Tell me who's the idiot (morals and ethics aside) -

the person who after getting his frozen ATPL never spends a penny on a type rating or any P2F scheme and waits for things to improve but with no idea of when, how or if this will happen. Of course his conscience will be clear, although that will be of limited use!

OR

the person who after getting his frozen ATPL does whatever he has to do to survive/succeed and get ahead of the competition.

The answer is not as clear cut as some people make out and just because some people don't do what you would, doesn't make them idiots! I'll say again I do not like P2F but in the current climate I completely understand why some pilots choose it.

One thing I have learned in my decade or so of training, instructing and commercial flying is NEVER rely on fellow pilots to do right by you. They are the biggest bunch of hypocrites and bull**** talkers I have ever seen! This I have learned through hard experience!:hmm:

No one is living your life except you and it isn't a dress rehearsal!

[CoiledString]

KyleRB, you tell me who the idiot is?
The kid with 250 hrs who will be sat in the right hand seat of a budget airline for 10 years then left hand for 30 years........ end of career.....

or

someone who instructs after doing a cpl/ir, maybe a bit of single pilot stuff, and bit of turboprop flying? By the time he/she has been around aviation for a few years they make a rational decision about their career. Guess what, by then they can actually fly an aeroplane with some SA too. If they then decide to join an airline, they still have time to squeeze in the obligatory 2 divorces, cabin crew partner, 1 bedroom flat - lifestyle.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I became a pilot to fly aeroplanes; not for money. If it were only about money, your argument would be sound.

Anyway......... back to the thread. The UK is currently nowhere near short of pilots. When 250hr kids and 1000hr instructors can walk straight into a job that pays more than working in Mcdonalds we may be.

[RoyHudd]

No-one will survive 10 years right-seat then 30 years left-seat in a low-cost carrier. Death from fatigue after about 15 years, unless part-time option taken.

[KyleRB]

CoiledString

No one is the idiot, people enter aviation for different reasons. I personally do not blame youngsters these days for ignoring noble trades like instructing because it doesn't have the value it once had or still deserves. I was an instructor for over 1500 hours before I got lucky. Now I am a co-captain on a biz jet with well over 3000 hours and I didn't have to pay for the rating.

However I have some highly capable fellow instructor mates who are still languishing with over 2000 hours in their logbooks. One of them got so fed up with his lot he jacked it in and sold his soul to the devil :E. By that I mean he completed one of these P2F schemes and is now I believe on a permanent contract flying an A320, earning twice his instructor salary! He'll pay off the loan fairly quickly I reckon.

It's because of him that I have become open-minded to the issue. He served his time and deserved a break but as one wasn't forthcoming, he decided to be pro-active and do it himself! Good for him I say! Remember not everyone on a P2F scheme is a 200 hour wannabe wonderboy!

[justanotherstat]

One thing I have learned in my decade or so of training, instructing and commercial flying is NEVER rely on fellow pilots to do right by you.

I really don't like that statement, but is that because it might be true? I am against P2F but is that because I attribute that to be the reason I have spent 7 years at my current Turboprop operator without the ability to move on (recently) to the traditional next rung of the ladder jet operator? We have to look after number one, so yes I am selfish and wish these schemes didn't exist because then the likes of EZY etc would go back to looking for experienced guys like me.

This website we all use, be we for or against P2F, have big banners advertising such schemes! Unfortunately, it's all about money these days:ugh:

[FANS]

All this talk about the traditional route is dead and buried. Why on earth would anyone spend £7k on a FIR when you could get a TR with hours??

But then don't dare to complain about why you're getting zero hours over winter on your flexi-screw contract.

[SinglePilotCaptain]

It's like this....when the chief pilots get serious and want to hire experienced captains, all they have to do, is dig through the resume pile...the issue isn't P2F...it's the hiring policy of the airline to hire people who can fly or kids who will never leave and take orders.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Tell me who's the idiot (morals and ethics aside) -

the person who after getting his frozen ATPL never spends a penny on a type rating or any P2F scheme and waits for things to improve but with no idea of when, how or if this will happen. Of course his conscience will be clear, although that will be of limited use!

OR

the person who after getting his frozen ATPL does whatever he has to do to survive/succeed and get ahead of the competition.

The idiot is the person, or persons, perpetuating the P2F stupidity. If you never stop giving your money to an airline they will never stop taking it. They are the ones who are treating you like complete idiots, I'm just speaking the truth.

You won't have to wait for things to improve because I can tell you exactly when they will. They will improve, utterly and completely, when everybody decides that what they are doing is stupid in the extreme. That will be when the proper contracts, terms and conditions and working practices will have to be realised. Full stop!

If you stopped accepting crappy contracts and poor working conditions then it would stop. Just like that. You are ruining your own future and the future of this industry. I hope for everybody's sake that, very soon, your money runs out.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

When pilots are getting laid off, airlines are going tango uniform, T&C's are ever decreasing as carriers look for a few points on cent per passenger seat mile, people are still lining up to sign on the dotted line, get their parents, or their own house in hock on the fallacy of available jobs out there. A pilot shortage...



This may be the situation in the UK, I don't know.

But, in the US, it is the opposite. EVERY airline (except UPS, which is making record profits) is recalling, and most have started hiring. The airlines that have been hiring for any length of time have already had to lower their minimums to get enough candidates.

Within the next year, and then in 2012, and then in 2013, the recruiting situation will get MUCH worse for the US airlines.

I think they will HAVE to start an MCL system here to keep up. One thing that may help, to some degree, is trainers with electric motors, which will reduce the cost dramatically.

cliff
LGG

[Serenity]

EASA need to follow the FAA approach and not allow people under 1500 hours fly passenger aircraft, maybe just over a set weight.
This would stop the P2F who just buy a seat in an airline and make people see the enjoyable side of gaining experience.
Maybe limit it to aircraft over 10T!
This will help prevent the industry from becoming a race to the bottom and a marketplace for those with the deepest pockets!

WAKE UP BALPA!!!!!!!

[Deano777]

Serenity

Wholeheartedly agree, well said that man.

Forget BALPA, there's more use in a chocolate teapot.

[stuckgear]

atpcliff,

That's good to hear.

A significant issue that causes endemic problems in the UK is that we have a legislative base that is rather different to that in the US.

Take for example the above comment from another poster 20driver, also US based..


For a young person starting to day without doubt, hand over the cash if you can get it and do it all in one wack and go work at Eazy or Ryan. It makes sense. The $$$ difference between getting to a fatpl and adding a TR is a very good deal when you compare what it gets you.


To a degree, I concur with that. However, here in the UK, lets say you gained your fATPL through 'XYZ' FTO, the flexicrew scheme is run through CTC, so unless you are a CTC student, that is, you've paid your money and gained an fATPL through them, then the EZ flexicrew contract is going to be a tough call to even get your name on the list for.

You went to 'XYZ' FTO, so not being from that training facility CTC has little interest in putting your name on the list..

Now, lets consider that Ryan run theirs through lets say SFAA, and having gone through 'XYZ' FTO, you face the same issue..

Now lets consider if you went to SFAA and Ryan put on a recruitment freeze, you are going to find it a tough job to get on the list for the CTC flexicrew program.

Likewise, if you went to CTC and the flexicrew program is put on ice, you are not going to get a look in at another carriers scheme run through a competitor FTO.


The problem can start right at the outset of selecting an FTO, in that you are going to find your options available limited to the schemes run by that FTO, and if by the time you have gained the fATPL that the scheme has been terminated, put on hold, or switched to another FTO, your prospects are even further limited, maybe even non existent.

It is the same situation, say, if you went modular through the same FTO, unless you are an integrated student, you can pretty much be considered persona non grata, on trying to get onto a scheme run by that FTO, as the push is for their own money spinners, integrated students.

Now, if we consider once you have gained an fATPL through whichever FTO, to progress into a self funded TR, you are going to have cough up maybe some 35,000 Euros. Yet, within the industry, you can gain the same TR through a JAA regulated, and based, provider for some 12,000 Euros. In some cases, its even the same TR provider.

So in short, unless you go as an integrated student to specific training provider, then you have little chance of getting onto the scheme being run at the time. and if you do, you are going to have to pay treble the going rate for a JAA TR, over what the market rate currently stands at.

Where the problem stands here is that the FTOs are in a competitive market, so while they are building up a pool of candidates for their partner airlines, who are now severely restricted on the positions they can apply for, the FTO's are in a position of presenting a portfolio of candidates that have little option in T&C's they will accept as the doors elsewhere are closed.

As one FTO builds up a portfolio of candidates, a competitor will likewise build up a similar portfolio, but even more attractive, this bunch will accept lower TC's and pay even more for TR scheme.

And so the cycle perpetuates.


From a realistic point for the carrier, this is great. Portfolios of pilots that will accept ever reducing terms and cost overheads to the carrier. As a business owner, you can take an option that will reduce your overheads with little commitment, over what your current costs and commitments are. It's a no brainer.

Further to this, why as a carrier would you want to take on a rated pilot with time on type, on the salary that would be commensurate with such experience, when you have a portfolio of cadets that are presented with overheads and terms that would be a lot more financially 'attractive'.

In Europe, particularly the UK, there is simply not the GA traffic that would allow to build up time and experience to the quantity that industry requires. Consider the busiest GA airport in the US has more movements in a day, than the busiest GA airport in the UK has in a month. Further to that GA in the US is considerably more cost effective than in the UK.

While the US has, constitutionally, certain rights and freedoms and prevention of restrictive practices, the UK does not to the same degree.
The FTOs are the ones driving the market and they are doing so for their own survival and competitive basis.

If someone wants to pay for a TR, over being bonded, then fine, that is their prerogative, but conversely, if the JAA regulated carrier wont pay for a TR, then accept a TR from a JAA regulated TR provider.

Or do they not have the confidence in their own regulator ?

Similarly, there needs to be regulation from the restrictive practices on employment prospects employed by the FTO's. If carriers need pilots or cadets, then they should be accepting all candidates that have appropriate paperwork, provided by the acceptable authority. Even more so with the FTO's if they want to provide a portfolio of cadets/ pilots to a carrier, then it should not be restricted to guys who are effectively held to ransom.

To return back to the core point of the thread, there is no shortage of pilots. What there is, is a shortage of pilots with access to the recruitment departments of aircraft operators, as operators have become dependent on 'partner' FTO's for crew recruitment. For BLAPA to even suggest a pilot shortage, while ignoring the core problem is, well, frankly shameful.

The recruitment needs to be open and level, not based on restrictive practices which are damaging the industry from top to bottom in the medium and long term.

[Snoop]

Kyle RB and others.

I did a self sponsored Cap 509 course. When I left college even the TP operators wanted 1000hours tt. I was caught out by 9/11. I had 2 job offers which were both pulled.

I ended up renting my flat and flying aerial photography in a 172 for peanuts. This led on to a job flying the legendary Aztec for a survey company, getting paid chips and then the C404 and C402 in single pilot survey and air taxi roles where finally I could afford Beer. I then went on to fly a large TP and am now flying one of the first of the new generation (last of the old!) Jets. The fantastic B757. I have NEVER paid for a type rating.

When times were bad after 9/11, I came close. Even then it seemed FUNDEMENTALLY WRONG to pay for training that should be provided by your employer, using their SOPS. I am so glad I didn't. If I had I would have missed out on the best bit of my career so far, all that great experience and fun I had flying the 172 and the twins. If I could get paid what I earn now I would go back and do that tomorrow. It has been the most rewarding task orientated flying I have done.

If people can't afford to work as an instructor, glider tugging, para dropping, or aerial photography after they have paid for the course then they can't afford to do it. Period.

Those that shelve out for a type rating, it does not guarantee a job. So that is another 20 grand blown. Take that cash and get your FI or live in a caravan flying for peanuts (at least you are getting paid something) and live off the 20 grand that would have been spent on the A320 type rating you guys think you need to feel like a real pilot.

A true professional spends time gaining exposure and experience, learning the tools of the trade.

[KyleRB]

Guys

The 1500 hours rule makes sense but will it ever be implemented here in the UK who knows!? In principle it is a good idea, especially above a certain aeroplane weight. However, the major FTO/TRTOs like OAA and CTC may have something not very nice to say about it! Also, do you exclude fully sponsored cadets with circa 200 hours who have been through a rigorous selection process and have exemplary training records?

Stuckgear, you make some good points which highlight some of the quirks of our system.

[White Knight]

A true professional spends time gaining exposure and experience, learning the tools of the trade.

The most sensible post in this entire thread!!!!!

But I always made sure I had beer money:ok::ok:

[timzsta]

1500 people just applied to BA Cityflyer. Read a figure of 2000 to Jet 2. Many with experience from heavy TP's and medium sized jets. I don't think there is going to be a shortgage of Pilot's anytime soon! Especially given over 1000 shiny new CPL's were issued by the CAA in 2009.

[Jonty]

You're probably right. However, I would guess that they are the same 1500-2000 people.

[KyleRB]

White Knight/Snoop

It's not about who's a 'real pilot' or who's a 'real professional' that is just pilot willy waving again! :rolleyes:

When the airlines once again appreciate the experiences you and I have then I think P2F will be consigned to the history books BUT until then it's an alternative, ableit a distasteful one!

However, it completely ludicrous to suggest everyone MUST live in a caravan, fly for peanuts and live on chips and curry sauce while gaining experience! :hmm: This may be fine IF you are single but what if you have a wife and kids? It is then completely and utterly impractical and probably a waste of time especially in the current market where such skills and experience are NOT appreciated by airlines.

[stuckgear]

KyleRB,

thank you, however, it is more than just quirks of our systems, it is an endemic failure of our regulatory and legislative processes to think more than a couple of years ahead and to consider potential outcomes and anticipate reactive practices.


The 1500 hours rule makes sense but will it ever be implemented here in the UK who knows!? In principle it is a good idea, especially above a certain aeroplane weight. However, the major FTO/TRTOs like OAA and CTC may have something not very nice to say about it!


To be honest, who knows if it will be implemented, that rather depends on the argument being put forward at the time and the benefits to the party putting forward that argument.

Quite simply, the UK does not have the GA traffic to accommodate the required numbers of new hires required to even sustain current numbers, let alone industry growth. Heck the larger FTO's in the UK send their pilots overseas for the flight portion of training, which again further reduces the capacity for UK based instructing jobs.

... So for the future instructors looking at building time up, the option is going to be 'Sleepy Backwater Flight School", where they may get a couple of hundred hours in a year in a 152, and thats about it, which is of little interest to an operator, as the schools getting the twin rating students, the IR students and the CPL students are going to to be the bigger schools, which send their student base overseas.

Now if we consider the legislation of a minimum 1500 hours and 'x' time on a 27,000kg, multi crew operation aircraft, how exactly is the UK pilot base going to gain the requisite time to move into such a position?

simply it is not, so the resultant factor would be, to recruit overseas pilots that have those imposed requirements...

... or FTO's sell right seat time to candidates because there is no way they are going to gain anywhere near the experience they need to apply for a position, unless they pay for it. And that has just cemented the P2F route in place ad infinitum. Go figure !



We sit here and see cadets blaming experienced crews for letting this happen, experienced crews blaming cadets for buying into it, all the meanwhile everybody's T&C and job security goes swirling around the plughole. What could easily have been anticipated and prevented with a little foresight happens because fingers are pointed and nothing gets resolved and the regulatory and legislative processes are not representing the UK pilot base, because there is no coordinated representative base fighting their corner as whole.

[KyleRB]

Stuckgear

An excellent post which highlights why we are in this mess - I agree with everything you have written. I suppose this is why the MPL was introduced in the first place.................... :(

[Paul Rice]

Once again BALPA stricks its crass insensitive foot in it !!!

1000s of British pilots are scattered around the globe working 1000' s of miles from home often unaccompanied by their family, in what could be described as "hard duty stations".

The reason for this BALPA please take note are that their are next to no pilot job vacancies in the UK.

So BALPA your talking complete dribble about a UK pilot shortage. Infact there is about as much chance of their being pilot shortage as there is me suffering a cash surplus.

In the off chance that there ever is a recovery in the UK job situation there will be thosands of British pilots looking to get back to the UK closer to home.

There really is no need to fret that the £100K training fee putting people of joining a what has become an awful lifestyle.

Infact anything that can trim the oversupply of new pilots the better.

[MainDude]

Pilot shortage in the UK? No way will that happen anytime soon!

There are hundreds, if not thousands of experienced European pilots that are holding out in some sideline country, somewhere in the world, wanting to be closer to home... and I'm guessing that more than half are P2F "graduates" who would have accepted FI or TP jobs if there were any at the time they left flight school.

The old career path has changed, and will continue to change. Sentiment, ethics or regulation is not going to stop that. Globalization is a mixed bag of flavors for any industry.

[stuckgear]

MainDude,

I agree, with your comment Pilot shortage in the UK? No way will that happen anytime soon!

and would like to add to There are hundreds, if not thousands of experienced European pilots that are holding out in some sideline country, somewhere in the world, wanting to be closer to home... and I'm guessing that more than half are P2F "graduates" who would have accepted FI or TP jobs if there were any at the time they left flight school.

That there's hundreds more pilots out there, with line experience and time on type that have had to take alternative employment away from the aviation industry due to the lack of available jobs and the desperate need to pay the mortgage/bills etc. Let alone the cost of remaining current while actively looking for a position commensurate with their experience. Those guys and gals would happily jump ship from what ever they are doing for a flight deck position.

while i agree in part with your comment:


The old career path has changed, and will continue to change. Sentiment, ethics or regulation is not going to stop that. Globalization is a mixed bag of flavors for any industry.


yes the old career path has changed and that sentiment, ethics or regulation will not change that, regulation that protects the industry within a state will countermand the the further degradation of the industry.

Globalization, it to some extent a misnomer. The phrase was first coined in the late 1800's and became more widely recognized around the 1930's. The Chicago Convention of 1944, sought to address international conventions and to establish bilateral agreements between contracting states.

However, we see in this industry some degree of protectionism from certain contracting states, like for example the restriction in issuance of working visa to non nationals,, or the requirement for the fluency in the native language, yet take for example the UK, which does not.

Another example would be say a UK regional operator using crews from an overseas FTO/carrier to fly the line and build time before being return to their native country with the requisite experience. All the while that is taking available positions out of the market for UK nationals.

I've addressed some of the contributing factors in other posts already and do not wish to re-hash them, but while sentiment, is nothing to base regulation on, regulation that protects and benefits the industry and those that work in it is necessary for its continuance. The failure to consider potential areas of defect, or ignoring future decline due to inaction is negligent.

For BALPA to even consider, let alone publicly release a statement such as it has is not only factually incorrect, but also negligent in terms of the body it is paid, by it's membership base to represent, both in the short term and the long term.

[Jabiman]

From the original news story:
A Balpa campaign is pressing individual airlines to shoulder more of the responsibility for training.
The union says it is now almost impossible for young people from middle and low-income families to get into the profession.
Obviously that statement is correct but lobbying the airlines to voluntarily pay to train cadets is never going to produce results.
Also bringing in mandated by law minimum hours will not fix anything as the airlines will just recruit pilots from elsewhere.
So about the only alternative may be to set up an academy which is paid for by some sort of fee to which all airlines are forced to contribute and in return may then draft a number of recruits proportional to their payment.

[Vrille]

Looking at the cost of training + UK wages + the increasing tax bill from Osborne + cost of living it is no longer worthwhile financially to be a pilot in the UK.

Furthemore the easy credit tap has dried, meaning that only the wealthier part of population is able to access the profession. Now considering the ever degrading Terms and Conditions the job offers it doesn't really make sense to pay such an amount of money for little return.

After all studying for a management, accounting or any other business degree isn't any riskier than getting a CPL/IR + Type rating.

My point is: If terms and conditions don't improve there will be a shortage of inexperienced British pilots in the UK market. I have noticed that CTC has started doing roadshows all over the country lately, is the intake of inspiring cadets drying up?

Now, will Joe Blogg from Poland, Ireland, France or anywhere else step in ? Hard to tell........

We might well be at that stage where the wind is turning in favour of us, pilots, for a change ! :ok:

[nigegilb]

Latest I heard the other day is that there is a 15-30% uplift on the table in Mid East, across the board, just a reluctance to be the first to offer it.

[Microburst2002]

Brilliant, indeed.


It's my opinion that the root cause of the actual situation is the FTOs. Their fight for survival is killing us. It's as if in a war, private soldier training organizations wanted to keep the bussiness and training soldiers at the same rate during peace time after the war. Where the hell would those soldiers go?

You are right: the choice a wannabe makes when he decides for a given FTO will restrict his career totally.

I wonder if there could be such thing as a "natural seleccion" so that only a few FTOs (those with agreements with airlines) would survive. I think that "conventional" flight schools are doomed since the "from zero to hero"
schemes are much more attractive.

Do you think that we could reach a point at which each airline would have its own FTO?

What would happen then?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Do you think that we could reach a point at which each airline would have its own FTO?

What would happen then?

The FTO division would be the only consistantly profitable part of the airline :rolleyes:

[Microburst2002]

hahaha

I already know of an airline which still hasn't gone bankrupt because the first officers are in fact paying the salaries of the rest of the crew. Otherwise they would be broke long time ago.

Who need customers to fly in their airplanes, anymore?
Why to compete with the other airlines for the bussiness travelers or the tourists, of inmigrants?
fight for the richest wannabes instead!

[X13CDX]

I can totally sympathise with this BBC news topic.. After many years of grabbing hours towards my training when finances became available yet really getting no where at all. At 26 I just last month passed selection and gained a place with the Pilot Training College on their Integrated Airline Pilot Training Program. Yet my dream and ambition has once again hit a massive brick wall as I have no equity in any property or otherwise to secure my training funding.. So as of right now, although my dream seems so close after passing selection and gaining a place on the course.. It most likely is never going to happen for me as I just cant raise the near £70,000 to complete my training.. :ugh:

[camel]

Sit tight .... its turning slowly ....by next spring:ugh: there will be a LOT of folks wishing they were in your shoes (£70 k better off than them) 26 ? whats the big rush ? chill !

[stuckgear]

Microburst, et al.

Thank you for your comments.

In view of some of the other posts and questions raised:

I have noticed that CTC has started doing roadshows all over the country lately, is the intake of inspiring cadets drying up?


To a degree, of course. When an FTO starts doing roadshows to recruit candidates, who's money is needed for survival, when there are so few in the market place, compared with the quantity of 'would-be' pilots, it would indicate a problem in the numbers required to sustain the overheads.

The problem is not of course potential candidates, but potential candidates with the liquidity, or capacity to raise the liquidity to fund such a course.


Now, will Joe Blogg from Poland, Ireland, France or anywhere else step in ? Hard to tell........

We might well be at that stage where the wind is turning in favour of us, pilots, for a change !


Don't believe it for a start. What will invariably happen is that airlines will look to recruit flight crews from countries with lower living costs. With the capability now to employ pan-European, why would a pilot that requires 'X' salary to survive, be a consideration, when a JAA rated pilot, that needs 'Y' to survive (Y being considerably less than X) can provide the same function.

Again, it's simple economics. The resultant factor being that once the full effects of pilots without the liquidity required, and/or requiring a higher salary to service the debts incurred as well as living expenses has exhausted the candidate base, then the supply route will change.

Of course, the resultant of this will be a demise of the UK based FTO's along with the UK based crew availability. After all, what would the purpose serve in paying a vastly overpriced fATPL, when the employers are now seeking crews from 'cheaper' countries that have the same paperwork.

Do you think that we could reach a point at which each airline would have its own FTO?


well to a degree, we're already seeing that. with certain FTO's aligned to certain airlines.

As for the Airline owning an FTO, look at OAA. It is owned by Star Capital Partners...


STAR is an independent investment fund manager with over €1 billion of equity funds under management

Star Capital Partners (http://www.star-capital.com/aboutUs.html)


Unfortunately, there are some very, very simple methods that could be implemented to prevent, maybe even reverse the damage done to the industry, for example:

1. If an aircraft operator presents that the candidate be in possession of a self funded TR, then that TR may be provided by any TR provider authorized by the national regulator of the carrier.

This would then place the TR's required into the open market, rather than hog-tie the candidate to having a TR provided at three times the market rate. IE. if a UK carrier wants a candidate to have TR, then a TR provided by a CAA regulated training provider should be deemed acceptable.

This then places type specific training into the open market, not into a monopolized provider.

2. Any vacancies an operator has, even if they source their crews through an aligned FTO, must be open to all suitably rated candidates. Removing the capability of an FTO to restrict cadet positions to their own students.

Again, this would place the recruitment into the open market and prevent FTO's providing a portfolio of cadet, basically, with nowhere else to go and removes the employment capacity from a monopolized provider.

In short, if a UK carrier has available openings, they should be open to all candidates with CAA tickets, not be restricted because the opening is with a carrier that has a loose affiliation with another FTO.

Simply, if the carrier wants to employ pilots trained specifically to their methodology, then they need to take the investment and start their own training schools again, solely for providing candidates for their own operation and none other.


Both of these simple issues would open up the market substantially and allow pilots not to be restricted because they selected one FTO at the start of their training over another.

It would, like i said previously open the market up to recruitment on a fair an equitable basis, meaning that carriers would have to provide a 'living wage' as their recruitment base is no longer restricted to a portfolio of pilots that have no other choice, with the terms and conditions being dictated by a third party that has an interest in providing the pilots that will accept the worst.

Of course, this is what BALPA should be lobbying for; Equality and open recruitment of pilots that are suitably rated by the authority, not making crass, inaccurate and misleading press releases about pilot shortages, which will invariably only feed the FTO's future and the further degradation of the industry.

[Ganzic]

Well, it's has been 3 years since the post, has anything changed or improved? :ugh:

[Landflap]

Ganzic, of course not. When I commenced pilot training in 1969, there was an impending worldwide pilot shortage. There was not. By 1979, forecasters (mainly pilot training schools) were forecasting such a tremendous shortage that airline growth was likely to be inhibited. Didn't happen.When I retired, after some 40 odd years, FTO's are still predicting the shortage and coaxing funds from any source. But to be fair, in 1970, my mortgage broker promised that when my endowment policy matured in 1995, it would repay my mortgage & leave me with a healthy fund left over. It didn't.

[fokker1000]

Wise words land flap.....

[Shiner Pilot]

Good point well made...

I'm somewhere in Africa, 1000s of miles from my family, 13 years on from getting that CPL and it has been a nightmare of a job and Industry. I know I am working in someone elses Country, but why is it I can't get a job back in the UK? Anyone?

The US not much better, I could get a job there and earn $23 a flying hour...

Not cool man...

[ETOPS240]

Spandex, (I'm picking you, only because you've probably had the most input from your side in this debate - and strongly promote your opinion - which I wish was the case)..

I agree with the premise of what you say, that P2F is a cancer within the industry. It is the single biggest driver of Ts and Cs, at least in Europe, and it's spreading.

That said, I don't believe that berating or blaming those outside looking in is the answer. It is merely ambition. Yes, they are naive. Yes, they are pulling the rugs out from under those who have been on the self-improver route, and yes, yes, yes.... The list goes on. These are just folks trying like you and I did, to get on the ladder. The tall ladder, no less.

The issue, however, stems from within the industry. WE are the ones who need to make it stop. We let it happen. We are responsible for protecting ourselves and our industry, not outsiders looking in. That's just the reality of it. By the time someone has broken out the back of OAA with a blue book and surveyed what's available, it's too late.

Riddle me this:

Let's pretend we have 2 integrated course graduates. 23 years of age. Both 70K in debt. Both very capable and diligent, and graduate with their blue books without issue. One pays for an FI rating, lets call it 8K. The other pays 20K for a TR and 500 hours.

The FI works for peanuts, cleans aircraft, slowly builds up time in an SEP, and a year later, flies MEP in Ghana. Same crap wage. Adventure, romance, etc.

At 1800 hours, call it 3 years post OAA, he snags an interview for FlyBe. He's certainly driven, able, and the job is his. He now earns 25k a year, inching up into the 30s, for many years. A command will eventually come up. Money is mediocre at best, and the prospects of a jet job for TP operators is slim. The demand just isn't there. Let's say 8 years at FlyBe. Then year one at Monarch. Well played, ambition achieved, and the prospect of decent professional money is upon him. At this point, realistically, 12 years have passed since day one at OAA.

Number 2 pays 20k to land himself a jet job. RYR/Tiger/Wizz or whatever else. He's 12k lighter than number one. Worst case, he makes similar to a FlyBe FO. Best case, he makes more. Conditions and morale are rubbish, but the experience is good. 2 years later, he's interviewed at BA, fails, but 18 months later he's off to Emirates/Virgin/Monarch.

Now, being in the industry, I know that this is a great simplification. But, when you're a capable FATPL holder, heavily indebted, this is probably not a million miles away from one's thought process. The time scales listed in both scenarios are equally viable. To that end, can you blame anyone from wanting to generate the best return on their investment, even if it means spending more?

It's all well and good getting all Tex Johnson about the romance of having a ****e job in the Congo for a while, but you and I are both acutely aware of the investment needed to get qualified, and the need to firstly generate a return on it; and secondly get on a seniority list of a career platform. Regretfully, most companies only want jet time. A crying shame, I'll grant you, but that's the way the world has gone. The guy with the jet time has a great many more options than the TP operator.

One option is going to cost you 8 grand, and 10+ years. The other 20 grand, and 2+ years. I'm no Galileo, but I can probably work out that conservatively, the ROE on number 2 over the course of a career, is hundreds of thousands better than number one.

This, kind sir, is why FATPL holders will continue to shell out hand-over-fist for a shot on a jet. I don't agree with it, and I dislike how narrow the career path has become, but it is the reality. We cannot berate or misunderstand people who take the plunge with more debt. It isn't their doing. We allowed it to happen. These guys are merely conceding that with 70k of debt hanging over them, they may as well bet the farm and take out a bit more; statistically, they are more likely to recover it all far more quickly than the guy 'with principles'.

I know this hasn't really tackled the P2F issue, more the SSTR. Ultimately, though, P2F is merely another stretching/embellishing of already hideous industry practices - again, which we failed to stop.

I wish I knew what the answer was. I think a start is unity amongst us. It's our mess, but nobody else is going to look over us.

[ETOPS240]

I'm not a trainer or Captain, merely a widebody FO overseas.

My apologies; as I said, I was merely using a self sponsored TR in my example. That said, I believe everything I said would remain the same, should you choose to swap the 20k figure for 50k.

[magicmick]

No worries ETOPS, there’s nothing ‘merely’ about being a widebody F/O.

[ETOPS240]

They're all the same, but with different rosters!

[A and C]

I will take a major accident with large loss of life to put a stop to P2F and the airline industry's policy of making money from charging those who wish to be pilots.

Greedy training establishments are briefing against modular students because they can make more money from integrated deals wth the airlines and shutting the self improver route to an airline job.

The fact is that airlines sell seats and selling the righ hand seat in the flight deck is very profitable and could a relatively safe process but as usual the bean counters have over overdone it and driven some to Peronal bankruptcy with zero hours contracts.

It is only a matter of time before the the personal financial position of some FO on a zero hours contract is the one of the contributory factors in a serious accident. As usual the bean counters will drop the responsability on the Companies pilot management while conveniently forgetting that they had forced the pilot contract situation on them.

Only after the death of passengers and anyone unfortunate enough to be under the aircraft when it comes down will this situation change.

[angelorange]

What's an extra £50k debt at 8%? Over how many years?

Even the BA future pilot MPL deal will cost around 32k in interest over the 7 year period.

Then look at the no1 killer of western jet pax. It's the no1 priority of the UK CAAs deadly seven: loss of control and reduction in manual flying skills with automation dependency.

5 years down the line the long haul FO has 15h of manual handling time, the Congo pilot has 3000h.

It will take an accident? It already has in the USA where the Colgan q400 crash captain was P2F on a b1900. He failed sim rides but was passed because payingcustomers are always right, right?

Aug 2013. Love it or loath it FAA mandates 1500h to fly any airliner.

Meanwhile EASA allows 70h actual flying and quite a few more in a SIM before low Ts&Cs airline job (MPL).

Time for a middle ground! How about the old uk CAA 700h rule for CPLs. Restore GA with folk who want to learn in an apprenticeship fashion. We have plenty of reliable overseers from the AAIB, Cranfield, RAeS, Military CFS who could work with the CAA for a better training system.

Airline Type rating bonds to be legally binding like mortgages and transferable to new employment.