Advice please DA42 with 2.0 Thielert Engines

[007helicopter]

Hi, I have been asked my opinion about the purchase from a non pilot of a DA42 with the 2.0 Thielert Engines, I have made it clear I know next to nothing about these other than a few hours last year just to try one out, but I would like to give them some feedback which they can then look into more and make there own mind up.

They will initially employ a Pilot andintend to eventually learn to fly.

My question is however would it be still viable to buy with the Thielert engines like this example here: 2008 DIAMOND DA42 TDI Piston Twin Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com (http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/DIAMOND-DA42-TDI/2008-DIAMOND-DA42-TDI/1115011.htm)

What was the actual problem with these and what would the likely problems be going forward?

The actual one they are looking at has around 450 hours where as the example above has 60 hours TT time and I have noticed a few on controller with very low hours which is curious.

Also any idea what to budget for the Austro Engine AE300 Conversion?

[Fuji Abound]

The DA42 is an excellent aircraft. I have a few hundreds of hours.

It is of course strictly a four seater. It carries load well but not four big adults and full fuel. It is a good all weather aircraft (as long as you elect the de-iced version) but I dont think it gives the most comfortable ride when the going gets tuff. It is superbly quiet and reasonably comfortable although the bucket style seats and the "racing car" posture not everyones cup of tea. It is not all that fast for a twin and the high pressure small wheels less than happy on wet muddy grass runways. Single engine performance is OK but at MAUW you very much need to be on the money if the worst happens in the climb out.

The G1000 kit is well tested and on the whole problem free. The autopilot is dated and a bit of an after thought but works well enough. The Garmin digital autopilot is in a different class and top notch.

There has been some problems with the bonding on parts of the u/c and the aux fuel pump if you elect for the extended tanks is always playing up. Having a single pumps seems stupid.

As to the engines the problems with Thielerts is well rehearsed on here and elsewhere and well worth reading the threads. Simply put the gearboxes have a history of failing early on in their life and their have been endless problems with the rest of the engine. The two litre version seems better, but is not as smooth and the extra weight is barely outwieghed by the extra horses. What the long term coverage of parts will be like I suspect is anyones guess but clearly a worry for an owner operator.

I have not flown the Lycoming variant but gather it is superb. I would not hesitate to buy one of these in preference. The extra performance is worthwhile and the known reliability of a tried and tested power plant peace of mind.

That said depending on the mission Jet A1 has its advantages.

Would I buy one? Well if you want a modern twin you are very limited. If you want an all weather twin that will get you there in comfort in almost any weather with margin and with speed it may not be the best choice but the alterantives will either cost a lot more or be a lot older.

Can you learn on a MEP - I dont think so, so your friend will need to get his SEP licence first. There are some singles as fast or faster than the DA42 with as good technology that will do the job as well or better for similar money in which your friend could learn to fly - but of course they lack the extra engine, even if in the case of the Cirrius, it is replaced with a whole aircraft parachute.

[IO540]

There is an opinion that Thielert will eventually vanish as a standalone company.

Their existing business is probably highly dependent on having a significant number of DA40TDi and DA42 owners held firmly by their goolies, because the cost of changing to the Austro engine is so high. But, over time, many of them will either scrap the aircraft, or change the engines.

Also, in the opinion of owners I know, this is not a "long life" aircraft and suffers continuous degradation through corrosion of the many metal fittings. It is a cheaply made aircraft. This is not an issue in the short term but makes it difficult to take a long view.

I know of some people who have tried to sell their DA42s and found no takers at anything below a totally silly-low price.

It's a nice aircraft but there are significant risk factors with it.

[Pilot DAR]

I would scond all of the favourable remarks Fuji has made with the understanding that the Thielert engines have their problems. I would not want to own a Thielert engine. I have only flown an hour and a bit in a Thielert DA 42, and I very much liked it, but I did not have to pay for it, and it was on it's way to be grounded for the gearbox life limit. It sure was simple to operate though.....

I flew about 20 hours in the prototype Lycoming powered DA 42 L360, evaluating the aircraft for certification of the Lycoming installation. It was superb. At the time I wa involved with the DA 42 L360, I believe that Diamond was not retrofitting existing DA 42's. There was talk about a future program to do this, and perhaps the future is now. If you have a diesel 42 in mind, I'd ask Diamond before you buy, if you'll be able to upgrade to Lycomings in a time, and at a price, acceptable to you. If this will be possible, buy the diesel, and fly the remaining time off it.

As Fuji said, the DA 42 is not a soft field aircraft. If you're thinking grass, it had better be lawn bolwing quality, and plenty long. I nearly had it stuck in 3 inches of snow/slush while taxiing on a paved taxiway.

The G1000, and integration to the Lycomings was excellent, and once I figured out how it all worked, made it one of the most pilot friendly aircraft I have ever flown for a long cross country.

The other aspect of the Lycoming power, is that 100LL will be required, and more of it, so the DA 42 L360 will have less range than the diesel.

Best of luck....

[007helicopter]

Thanks chaps for the balanced view, I think it has clarified what was in the back of my mind, and taking your points and reading the other threads about Thielert I think I would not either be wanting to recommend they take on for the future, shame as it does looks like ticks a lot of boxes.

Good point as well that not a lot of options for twins other than much older or more expensive, Cirrus SR22 although not directly compareable would seem a better option to me.

[Fuji Abound]

I have some time in 22s!

I think the cabin is better; after all it was built for fat Americans.

It is 10 knots faster at a sensible fuel burn.

It can be fiki and the r9 avidyne is better than the g1000.

More to the point everything is tried tested and proven technology - even caps.

As an aircraft ignoring totally the cost of operation I think the cirrus is marginally and I mean marginally better factor in the engines and the margin is more significant.

All that said there is still something special about a twin which you can only feel and not explain.

[Pilot DAR]

there is still something special about a twin which you can only feel and not explain

Well, you can see it, it looks kinda like this....

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Jims%20DAR%20Testing/File0258.jpg

[IO540]

Admittedly this is old history now but I seriously looked at the DA42, before Mr Thielert dropped the spanner in the works.

It is a real shame that we have such a lousy choice of light twins. We have the old 1950s iron which Hitler would not look out of place if he stepped out of it, and some of which is still in production, amazingly. The avgas fuel burn is high; the cost per mile of some of the big twins is comparable to a TBM700. The Twin Com is probably the most economical but all examples will now be very old, so it becomes a game of "do you feel lucky", and is probably a purchase for an engineering-savvy owner.

The DA42 promised to break the tradition, and its avtur engines would transform long distance touring around Europe. By the time you get down to Greece, the Avgas/Customs matrix gets very sparse. Italy is not a lot better and arguably more "random".

I am still curious how the "business" at Thielert was in the aviation press in Germany etc for years before it became public knowledge in the UK. I think Diamond (who obviously knew all along) just got very lucky ..... and sold a whole lot more airframes in the meantime ;)

IMHO, in 5 years' time things will be different. Either the Austro engine will be reasonably proven, with the already good airframe being further shaken down, or the engine will prove yet another can of worms and Diamond will be selling Lyco powered stuff. Evidently, they are evidently trying to cover both bases right now, with the avgas DA42 :)

The current situation, which few quantity operators (schools) will discuss openly, is that Thielert are still playing an unpleasant game of desperately trying to keep as many people as they can on board. I was recently speaking to one DA42 operator (not UK) who spoke of them highly, but as it turned out, almost their entire fleet is U/S, waiting for bits, etc.

I think Alan here looked into this recently. If you could pick up a DA42 for well under £100k, it would be good value as a "project" aircraft because at that discount you could stick new engines in.

[EDMJ]

@007helicopter: Have you considered the Tecnam P2006T? Uses MOGAS, has good short field performance and allegedly costs the same as a new Cessna 182.

[007helicopter]

@007helicopter: Have you considered the Tecnam P2006T? Uses MOGAS, has good short field performance and allegedly costs the same as a new Cessna 182.


It is not actually for me but friends in Turkey, I fly a SR22 and am biased towards that model, as I have no experience of Twins or Diamonds I wanted to try and some proper advice for them which I feel the feedback above has. I knew a bit about the Thielert problems but not enough to give a proper opinion.

[IO540]

As a very general comment, one's ability to take on a certain amount of real or potential trouble is very dependent on one's location relative to competent maintenance facilities, and also on one's mission profile.

I know this sounds obvious but it is worth stating.

At one extreme, consider being based at Southend, Cranfield, Bournemouth, and flying mainly quick day trips. In this case, you can handle an aircraft which has a steady stream of hassles, because you have on-site maintenance.

At the other extreme, consider being based at Panshanger (or many other places) and flying long trips across Europe, to places where there are no facilities. In this case, you want something very reliable, and with simple avionics so if something goes you can order a replacement fromt he USA and swap it yourself.

[007helicopter]

10540 - I agree and it also depends if you fly for pleasure when it suits or need reliable transport which you can depend on (subject to wx)

Either way owning a plane that has constant problems or the threat of a serious problem can be pretty sole destroying I imagine.

As a foot note following my feed back these guys are now reconsidering:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

I would add in view of IO540s comment and yours that the aircraft will be based in Turkey having a work shop at base than can tend to 42s would be a pre-requisite. If they dont for this reason alone they would be wise to reconsider. (as they are).

[Pilot DAR]

As a foot note following my feed back these guys are now reconsidering

It's not our intent to discourage any person from entering, or advancing in aviation, just to assure they have the best advice with which to make a decision which will most satisfy them.

[Cows getting bigger]

I have more than a handful of hours on the 42. As twins go, it is a nice aircraft to fly. It is a good platform for ab-initio training (some purists shudder at the thought of only two levers) and it is a capable 4 seat (3+1?) touring aircraft. The engines, when they work, are fine. Unlike Fuji, if I had to choose between the 42 and a similarly priced Cirrus I would always go for the 42 providing the 42's engines were top notch. I'll be very interested to see how well the Austro version sells.

Down sides - not that plush inside and not as rock steady as its heavier, high-compression, AVGAS burning (how many years has AVGAS got?) contemporaries in bumpy conditions.

[007helicopter]

the aircraft will be based in Turkey

Not as bad as it sounds, not sure of the maintenance in Turkey but I know there neighbours in Jordan have excellent facilities at Ayla aviation :: Ayla Aviation Academy-The Leading Flight Training Organization for Pilots in the Middle East :: (http://www.aylaaviation.com/)

[007helicopter]

My only few hours in a Diamond were at Ayla aviation and as a complete thread drift a great place to go for a holiday and be able to fly in the WADI rum desert which is spectacular, here is my very ammateur video YouTube - Diamond DA40 Flying low level in the Wadi Rum desert in Jordan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8G-Q9CQV3o)

[madlandrover]

Also any idea what to budget for the Austro Engine AE300 Conversion?

99000 Euros late last year.

[IO540]

Per engine?

[madlandrover]

No, total - essentially to convert a DA42 with 1.7 engines to a DA42NG, including the cheap plastic stick on vortex generators that fall off quite often.

[Karl Bamforth]

The Diamond aircraft are reasonably good aircraft. I am involved with the operation of 14 DA 40 and 3 DA 42 all fitted with Theilert/Centurion 2.0 engines.

I have heard of corrosion problems in UK but maybe this is due to aircraft sitting in the open. All our flights are over the sea and corrosion is a minor issue mainly related to unprotected bolts. We do fly such high hours that our aircraft are in for maintenance every month, maybe this keeps any corrosion at bay.

We find that the TAE 2.0 is very reliable, and I do not understand aircraft being grounded by gearbox limits etc. We operate on the opposite side of the planet from Theilert and with careful planning almost never have to wait for spares.

The 1.7 had a number of issues, some to do with theilert and some to do with the Diamond installation. Since the introduction of the 2.0 almost all issues have been resolved. Recently there was an issue with clutches which was caused by faulty parts supplied to TAE. TAE responded with emergency AD's to replace the faulty parts.

This year we have averaged in excess of 1,400 hrs a month all with Diamond aircraft fitted with TAE 2.0 engines, we find them relatively easy to maintain and have few defects, certainly no more of an issue than a lycoming. Due to the high hours we fly our engineers are probably some of the most experienced with the Diamond/Theilert aircraft, maybe this has an impact on the low number of problems we have compared to those reported by other operators.

One thing I have found when reveiwing defects is that many are caused by incorrect operation or pilots not understanding the aircraft systems.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Oxfordshire the other side of the planet from Thielert (sic!) ???
Think I'd go elsewhere to learn navigation...

[Fuji Abound]

Ignoring grounded aircraft that looks like an average of 21 hours a week across the fleet. Where abouts are you and what impact does the winter have - I assume you are not where your location indicates.

[Mechta]

I had a tour of the Thielert factory in Lichtenstein, Saxony, earlier this year, and was very impressed by the whole organisation. My guide made no attempt to hide the problems they had had on the 1.7 engine and he showed me the old and new clutch/torque limiter (for want of a better description) assemblies.

I was also shown an impressive test rig and modification for the little end lubrication nozzle problem (the soldered-on pipe assembly which could seperate has been replaced by a one piece casting, and the test rig ensured that the oil jet on the new nozzle was on target).

The factory has a lot of work from motor racing teams (their original business) in addition to the aero engines, as well as sub-contract work from a variety of customers.

At the time of my visit, the company was being run by the administrator in a sort of Chapter 11 way, with the emphasis very much on keeping the business going. Unlike the UK, the German government is interested in keeping businesses other than banks going. A large amount of EU/local authority/government investment went into setting up the factory in an area of high unemployment, and the impression I got was that they didn't want to see it go down the plughole.

Unfortunately the rules for companies in administration do invalidate warranties, so there was no doubt that there were a great many customers who had lost out when their early type gearboxes and or torque limiters had failed and were left to foot the bill for a replacement themselves.

Thielert has had its fair share of problems, but the impression my visit gave was it is also well equipped with the technology, personnel and hard earned experience to produce a good product now and in the future.

[Pilot DAR]

Mechta,

What a great post, thanks!