The RAF and asthma - WHY?!

[Jonesyboy92]

I have noticed that there have been numerous posts on this topic regarding people who are getting declined or think they are going to be declared permeanantly unfit for service.
Why the hell are the RAF so scared of asthma? I find it unbelievable that they are so massively reluctant to accept anybody with so much as a childhood stint of asthma.

In my view they have indeed missed out on some potentialy great airmen/women because of this archaic rule. I'm of the opinion that they can be just as 'fit' and surely in some cases even fitter than someobody who hasn't had the dreaded words 'asthma' staining their medical records, misdiagnosed or otherwise. In most cases it seems, those with childhood asthma have 'grown out it' years ago, and as such have never been affected by it since, nor are they at all likely to see it return.
Even those who try and appeal seem to have very limited success.

If anything, I can certainly understand how people who still currently need an inhaler or other such cases might be permeanantly unfit for service, although it is unfortunate, they cannot be regarded as 'safe', but those who have been cleared... I mean, come on.

Are these ludicrous rules likely to lighten anytime soon. What about this vaccine that is to be released soon that effectively 'cures' asthma for a period of time, will the rules adapt to that?

The reason for this post, is, yes... I've got an appointment with my GP tomorrow to see if I can get two counts of 'asthma' appearing on my medical records altered/misdiagnosed, although I remain particularly pessimistic, so this was a bit of a rant, but I just think there really no need to impose such non-sensical rules. Nontheless, I am preapred to have my dreams shattered before me :sad:

Please, share your thoughts though :}

[teeteringhead]

Sadly Jonesyboy they do it because they can afford to be picky. I'm sure PN will enlighten us as to the exact figures, but certainly scores, probably hundreds apply for every aircrew post.

All things being equal (which I know they never ever are) someone with a history of asthma may be (in their opinion) marginally more likely to have problems.

If they can fill the (decreasing :() number of slots with asthma-free people, then I'm afraid they will. I guess it's applying ALARP or "ten to the minus sixth" or whatever it currently is to the airworthiness of the crews......

Edited to add: Jonesyboy, I've just seen your longer post on the subject in the Medical Forum. I'm afraid your ambitions for multi-engined flying will make no difference, the RAF effectively sets FJ potential as the entry standard, as that is the largest number of slots they have to fill.

[scarecrow450]

I was in for 12yrs, downgraded for last 3 with asthma, could serve in RAFG and Cyprus, but not MPA and could'nt go on a possible det to an oli rich state. Even though been told Middle East countries have far better hospitals than our NHS.

The RAF will not take the chance your condition may worsen, especially as you may be flying, or being flown into a moutainous country at night !

[Pontius Navigator]

I find it unbelievable . . .

In my view . . .

I'm of the opinion . . .

I mean, come on . . .

ludicrous rules . . .

I just think . . .

Please, share your thoughts though :}

I think you are a troll. If you are 17 you are very opinionated for one so young. I believe that the RAF employs doctors who have spent 5 years at medical school and served numerous appointments concerned wit aviation medicine amongst other disciplines.

I know whose opinion I would believe. And to answer THs comment, it is about 1000-1.

[Red Line Entry]

JB,

It's similar to the policy for eyesight. Although the RAF will keep aircrew flying if their eyesight deteriorates in Service, they won't consider an ab-initio applicant with the same perscription.

Not surprisingly, when you've got the ability to pick and choose, you pick and choose! (Although my preference would be to accept the guys with specs or with historic asthma issues and balance it with a radical increase in the standard needed on the aptitude tests)

[airborne_artist]

Top tip - apply to the Royal Navy at the same time. They are less stringent, though reading your post on the Med forum I'd guess they will still insist on a four year symptom-free period, which will hold you back.

Right now the services have more than enough applicants who meet the strict criteria, so why open the gates even wider, for no additional benefit?

[barnstormer1968]

Jonesyboy
The RAF may have lost plenty of good individuals through various reasons, but it is unlikely you would be one of them IMHO.

Whether you are a troll or not, just because YOU do not know why asthma is a no no, then it does not change anything.

Lets imagine you have had asthma as a child (and so it could return under stress etc), and you are in a hot sandy country. You suddenly come under artillery fire, which may contain chemical weapons. Now, all of a sudden you feel short of breath. Is this due to asthma returning or the exactly similar effects of chemical agent, or just plain fear?

You have about two second to decide if you need to make sure everyone else around you fits their respirator (and instantly becomes massively less effective, or lives/dies), or whether you are simply short of breath due to fear. The complication comes when you suddenly realise that if it is asthma, then it is the end of your career, and if its not, then your mates won't be able to count on you, due to you not being able to breath in your respirator due to ingesting chemical agent.

That is over simplifying things, but then why should the services takes risks with a wheezer, when there are plenty of fit folks to choose from?

I know I come from a green background, so am very aware of why asthma is a no no, but any light blue types can find themselves in the same position too.

The military is a team thing, and the 'whole' is the strength, not the individual.

Just my two penneth:)

[vecvechookattack]

Brainstormer is right...there is no room for the ill, lame or unfit here.

[Trim Stab]

The strict standards on childhood asthma would make more sense if smokers were also barred from entry into the services.

[Davef68]

Jonesyboy, I'm usually just a lurker on here but I thought I'd login and comment. I can understand your frustration. I was given a 'medically unfit' when I tried to join at your age (albeit not with asthma)

They can't afford to take chances - bith in terms of money, and in terms of your and your colleagues safety. Whatever the problem may have been, they can't take a chance that it could cause your operational effectiveness to drop at a crucial time.

It might be a crushing disappointment, but there are plenty more life opportunnities for you - if you have the skills and intelligence to be considering this career path, I'm sure you can suceed in other life areas - I know I did.

[vecvechookattack]

The strict standards on childhood asthma would make more sense if smokers were also barred from entry into the services.


Yeah,....and drug takers..and those who imbibe...

[airborne_artist]

There are effectively no deaths worth counting for normal adult drinkers under 40, or for smokers, but there are about two deaths per hundred thousand due to asthma for the same age group. OK, small risk, but why put one in a single-seat cockpit?

[The Old Fat One]

Brainstormer is right...there is no room for the ill, lame or unfit here.


Absolutely....

Just imagine, you might end up with a half blind admiral with only one arm. Or a fighter pilot with no legs.

[Pontius Navigator]

TOFO, but they were fit when they joined. That they recklessly endagered themselves and remained in the Services clearly demonstrates how sadly we were lacking in health and safety.

[cazatou]

Being curious I did a little research in respect of the cost of Pilot Training and found that in 2008 the average cost of RAF Pilot Training from Entry to Squadron was £9.19 million. I guess that cost will now be around £10 million.

There is absolutely no way to justify accepting someone with a known background of a medical condition such as asthma for pilot training in the hope that they do not suffer an attack whilst airborne.

The three "legless" Pilots who flew with the RAF in WW2 had all qualified as military pilots before losing their legs.

[teeteringhead]

The three "legless" Pilots who flew with the RAF in WW2 had all qualified as military pilots before losing their legs. ... and at least one recently....

[St Johns Wort]

JB

Saw a bloke have an asthma attack once, wouldn't want to see it while he was holding the sticks or in any crew position where he was being relied upon.

Re the pilot and leg deficiency angle, should a pilot with 3 legs be rejected?

[Prop-Ed]

Just to give a bit of hope to those currently despairing.

I had a medical record of childhood asthma which did pose a slight sticking point before starting IOT. However, I was given the opportunity to prove it was either a mis-diagnosis or could not affect me in the future. It involved a few visits to Peterborough hospital and then finally to a hospital in Knightsbridge (IIRC as this is about 12-13 years ago). The results from all the tests showed all clear and I was eventually allowed to join as a pilot.

I've had my wings for 10 years now and never looked back (maybe across the fence now and again!).

So, just an example to show that all is not lost to those who find themselves in that unfortunate situation.

Good Luck!

And don't listen to people who tell you what you can't do. There is nothing to fear but fear itself, and spiders.:ok:

[BirdController]

My penny's worth - my mildly ashmatic youngest son desperately wanted to join the light blues after his older sibling went off, eventually, to a place in the English Marches where only Jedi's live................... But several applications thru a fairly sympathetic Bristol RAF CIO met with the same predictable response - sorry, we dont accept asthmatics in any trade whatsoever at any time ever.

So, he applied to be a copper and is now happily racing around Plymouth in his government funded jam sandwich, still being paid by Betty and thanks Devon & Cornwall Constabulary for his eternal good fortune and eventual early retirement.

Move on my friend - you'll eventually learn that some battles are not worth fighting. :ugh:

[Dr Jekyll]

Right now the services have more than enough applicants who meet the strict criteria, so why open the gates even wider, for no additional benefit?

It almost looks like an attitude of "why take the risk of employing unlucky people" but I can see their point.

[blimey]

There's asthma which might cause you to drop down dead, and there's asthma which might just mean you've been short of breath at times during childhood as a response to some specific trigger. To consider the two extremes as being a similar condition is a bit harsh.

[Jonesyboy92]

Wow, surprised by all the responses. Anyone following my post on the medical forum (should they give a toss or not), I have indeed never had asthma and the word is entirely absent from my medical records, but have been prescribed inhalers, (which I have never used to any effect) according to my records, so although it's half-and-half really as to whether I can get away it after all the research I've done. Only time will tell, so there's no room for speculation, but I'm a hardy lad, so I'll keep my chin up and brace myself for the disappointing news.

Alot of good advice and many good points posted here for both sides, although I did laugh at the 'troll' accusation simply because I have expressed opinion. If I knew everything, I wouldn't embellish the start of my sentences with 'I think' or 'In my opinion'. Either I'd be all-knowing and true (not the case), or just some bloody bigot.

I, myself, stand by my original opinion, though it seems genuine asthmatics or others with so much as a slight wheeze are looked at in distaste by too many people. Would you go into a home for the blind and mock them because the way their genes are coded are make them 'pathetic' human beings? Yeah, alright, two pretty different extremes, lol, but both are merely down to the way genes happen to exist. And OK, sometimes people joke about it, which is fine, but others really are serious and seem to have some sort of superiority complex...

[air pig]

Whilst applying for entry to the PMRAFNS, I had a medical at the Central Medical Estblishment in London. If you could get up the stairs you were halfway to being declared fit. Reception on the second floor, if I remember correctly. By accident I had an aircrew eye test, and later asked the Wing Commander MO what the rsult was, surprisingly he told me I had passed, but that I would never be acceoted for aircrew as my vision would deteriorate during the period of training to below minimum standards. Surprise surprise, it did.

Standards are there for a reason, no good having an asthma attack when flying, working on a flight line or when out with a Regiment patrol, even sat in a mission critical desk post.

Regards.

Air pig.

[muppetofthenorth]

though it seems genuine asthmatics or others with so much as a slight wheeze are looked at in distaste by too many people.

There is no distaste - any prejudice is being held in your head. You asked a very direct and specific question relating to a very demanding job and got a direct answer - any perceived risk, no matter how slight, is worth eliminating, so that is what the Med Board does. Are the OASC pers really saying that because of that you're a second class citizen? No.

You analogy that follows the quoted passage is poor, I think you'd find blind people applying to be Pilots in the RAF would be given equally short shrift by the recruitors.

[airpolice]

there is no room for the ill, lame or unfit here.

But the "Hard of thinking" seem to be doing rather well.

[captain echo]

i thought that asthma was acceptable for aircrew if it was before the age of 4 years, and did not persist past that age, has this changed?

[barnstormer1968]

Quote:
Brainstormer is right...there is no room for the ill, lame or unfit here.
Absolutely....

Just imagine, you might end up with a half blind admiral with only one arm. Or a fighter pilot with no legs.

To be honest, in these current times where there are plenty of very brave lads with no legs, due to being in action, I feel you could have come up with a better joke than that!

Not only that, but the example does not hold water, as neither of the two examples were really likely to be exposed to chemical or nerve agents in a combat situation, which was the point I was referring to.

This may be a blow to Jonesyboy, but the services are not like any other job, and so need to select different folks. Sometimes for reasons that are clear to those serving but a mystery to those wishing to join.

[Jonesyboy92]

i thought that asthma was acceptable for aircrew if it was before the age of 4 years, and did not persist past that age, has this changed?
For ground roles, you need to have been symptom free and therefore without treatment for four years or more. For roles in the air however it is imperative that you have no history of asthma. However, I recently read about the odd case (non too common either) where those with a childhood history of asthma have got in as aircrew. On the other hand, many cases are given no consideration whatsoever and are rejected as quick as possible.
There is no way to tell whether you will be considered or not for air roles if you have ever had just about any respiratory disorder. Some will get in, but it seems most will not.

[captain echo]

For ground roles, you need to have been symptom free and therefore without treatment for four years or more. For roles in the air however it is imperative that you have no history of asthma. However, I recently read about the odd case (non too common either) where those with a childhood history of asthma have got in as aircrew. On the other hand, many cases are given no consideration whatsoever and are rejected as quick as possible.
There is no way to tell whether you will be considered or not for air roles if you have ever had just about any respiratory disorder. Some will get in, but it seems most will not.

are you certain? im fairly sure that if it was before 4 and non persisting one would be considered for aircrew, unless the system has changed.

[Jonesyboy92]

This may be a blow to Jonesyboy, but the services are not like any other job, and so need to select different folks. Sometimes for reasons that are clear to those serving but a mystery to those wishing to join.
I've come to understand that now matey. I'll nonetheless continue my application and I can only wait and see as to whether I slither round the medical. At this point, whatever the odds, nobody can guess. If all else fails, I would certainly accept a ground role, whatever it may be, that is, if they would even have me do that. Only snag is, I will not stop wanting to become a pilot, lol. I'll certainly be paying for my PPL, IMC, CPL all the way up the ATPL - that is the worst case scenario.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Jonesy - you said:

For ground roles, you need to have been symptom free and therefore without treatment for four years or more.

Not quite true:

If you suffer from asthma or have done in the past, you cannot be considered for flying branches of the RAF. For ground branches and trades, people with a past history of asthma, wheezing or inhaler use may be eligible for service following review by medical staff. If you have current asthma symptoms or a current prescription or you use an inhaler for asthma or wheeze (regardless of cause), you are not eligible to apply for service.

which is taken from the download from the RAF site

http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/rafcms/mediafiles/8AC4A6D0_5056_A318_A8628AA28D2D8DAE.pdf

[Justanopinion]

Jonesyboy92

If you want to pm me, i will forward your email address to someone who flew the Harrier and is now on exchange flying singleseat. He had childhood asthma and it was on his med docs before joining up - he may be able to give you some good advice as to how he got through the system.

As others have said, it is a much tougher world than it was 10 years ago, and the military can afford to be fussy... but at least you are giving it a go - good for you. :D

[Jonesyboy92]

I've got asthma. Can I join the RAF?
Certain medical conditions rule out RAF service. Applications will be rejected if you suffer or have suffered from asthma in the last four years. However, if you have been diagnosed previously as suffering from asthma but have remained symptom-free for a continuous four-year period, you may be considered for RAF ground service but not aircrew.Also from the RAF website? I think they're meant to go hand in hand? Symptom free for four years as well as a review from RAF staff? :confused:.

[cazatou]

Jonesyboy

I am sorry to have to disagree with you but I am afraid that it is not your desire to serve as a Pilot in the RAF that is pre-eminent in this debate - rather it is the requirement for the RAF to recruit only those of the highest calibre in respect of both physical and educational attributes to fulfil the roles of the RAF of today.

When I joined the RAF in 1965 it was an Air Force which had over 300 Jet Provost Basic Trainers equipping No's 1,2,3,6 & 7 Flying Training Schools as well as Central Flying School , the College of Air Warfare and RAF College Cranwell.

Those days are gone and the RAF is a much leaner Force than at any time since the 1920's. Many hundreds of applicants wish to apply for Pilot training in the RAF each year and are disappointed because there are only a limited number of posts available.

Inevitably the decisions as to which applicants should be accepted are based on the requirements of the RAF and not the aspirations of the applicants. In the current Financial climate only those applicants who have no hint whatsoever of any potential Medical or other problems will be accepted for initial training and they will be closely monitored (and if necessary rejected) should they fail to measure up to the required standard.

It is inevitable that these standards will become even more stringent over the next few years as we now have a generation of Politicians who have no experience of warfare and will allocate the bare minimum of funding to HM's Armed Forces until such time as panic measures are required to fend off disaster.

Despite the above assessment, keep trying - and I wish you the best of luck.

[Jonesyboy92]

If there is one thing I appreciate in my short time on PPRUNE, it is the sincerity of it's users. I am glad I have been dealt the harsh truth, in a way, although I wish it could be easier, that's life and it's pretty damn tough. There is a reason Utopia doesn't exist, and that's because it isn't humanly possibly.
However, despite all your kindly shared comments, none can discount the fact that there is a chance of success, as minescule as it may be, not just for myself, but others in a similar position to myself. It seems it has been done before by others, and I indefinately think it is worth going for - that small chance is a chance not to be ignored.

[WannabeCrewman]

I went through OASC this year, applied for Pilot and WSOp, passed everything for both, then got told my legs were 14mm too long for pilot; bugger. Oh well, take it on the chin, its not meant to be - I was absolutely chuffed as chips to get WSOp, and given the option between a great career in the back of a a/c doing a job I'll love, or coming down on a chute with no legs because your knees lost a fight with the instrument panel, I know which I'd choose.

Don't be bitter about it mate, the rules are there for your safety and everyone elses. My reviewing board officer said that they aren't out to shatter hopes and dreams, they are there to filter out those with the right stuff and those without, and they would be irresponsible to pass people through who might later put themselves, their colleagues or those on the ground in danger - wise words.

[barnstormer1968]

Jonesyboy.

While I agree with:

Don't be bitter about it mate, the rules are there for your safety and everyone elses. My reviewing board officer said that they aren't out to shatter hopes and dreams, they are there to filter out those with the right stuff and those without, and they would be irresponsible to pass people through who might later put themselves, their colleagues or those on the ground in danger - wise words.

And while standards have to be adhered too, I will also commend you on your choice of wanted career, and will say that IMHO you should only carry on trying only if: YOU know deep inside your heart that YOU will NEVER let YOUR MATES down because of any condition you have. If you are sure of this, then give everything you have into your efforts!

[SOSL]

Congratulations on your ability to write such clear and straightforward English with only one spelling mistake. It is a rare skill at your age and you should be proud of yourself.

I too was frustrated in my desire to join the RAF as a pilot because it turned out that I was colour blind (I had always been aware that everyone I knew seemed to have problems with colours, but it had never ocurred to me that the problem lay in my own retinas).

However, I went on to join the RAF anyway; trained as an engineering officer and had a wonderful time and a long career.

My point is that, if your medical record rules you out of a flying career, there are other options for which you may be acceptable and they can be very rewarding.

Your ability to write good English may well, for instance, suggest a career in the Administration Branch would suit you.

Rgds SOS

[BEagle]

When I joined the RAF in 1965 it was an Air Force which had over 300 Jet Provost Basic Trainers equipping No's 1,2,3,6 & 7 Flying Training Schools as well as Central Flying School , the College of Air Warfare and RAF College Cranwell.

Indeed - I was watching an old Look at Life edition yesterday about RAFC Cranwell of the late 1960s. This included the comment that there were no less than 70 Jet Provosts at the College, which flew about 175 hrs per day...:hmm:

With the atrophied state of the RAF today, it is pretty obvious that selectors can afford to be very picky.

Anway, Jonesyboy92, if you do end up going down the ATPL route, you'll probably find that some of your contemporaries who are successful at OASC will ultimately become your co-pilots!

Meanwhile, keep an eye on Flying Scholarships 2010 - GAPAN (http://www.gapan.org/career-matters/scholarships/) for details of the Guild's PPL scholarships for 2011 when they appear in a few weeks time.

[cazatou]

BEagle

Those were the days when MRCA stood for " Must Refurbish Canberra Again!!"

[chopd95]

Beags, as an inmate at the Towers of that period, where can that be found?

[BEagle]

Just Google* 'Look At Life - British Cold War Jets [DVD]' and you will find various on-line outlets selling it!





*other Internet search engines are also available.

[scarecrow450]

Which 15 years ago consisted of running around a car park, blowing into a tube, and then sucking on a vacuum, and not the type my missus cleans the house with !!. Then a nice winco said, mmmm we don't know, come back in 6 months. At least the nurse's let us go to the pub around the corner !

[Shaft109]

I've been watching this thread as I was rejected in the late 1990's for having a history of Asthma. However in later life it doesn't stop me from holding a full JAA Class 1 FCL without restrictions for aircrew in the civvy world.

But I am curious if someone could point to any actual cases or instances where problems have been attributed to asthma? I did have a cursory look years ago but didn't find much.

Thanks

[scarecrow450]

Can I just add that CS gas on GDT did'nt make my asthma any worse and I was wearing a respirator with no probs at all(actually fell asleep wearing one during TACEVAL at Honington !) until the docs had their way and one SMO threaten to charge me if I did GDT again, even though I had not been told I could'nt do it !

[SOSL]

Stuprid boy!

SOS

[heights good]

"I, myself, stand by my original opinion, though it seems genuine asthmatics or others with so much as a slight wheeze are looked at in distaste by too many people. Would you go into a home for the blind and mock them because the way their genes are coded are make them 'pathetic' human beings? Yeah, alright, two pretty different extremes, lol, but both are merely down to the way genes happen to exist. And OK, sometimes people joke about it, which is fine, but others really are serious and seem to have some sort of superiority complex..."

Jonesyboy, firstly, nobody is mocking asthmatics. Secondly I have witnessed several asthma attacks throughout my life of variable severity. All of which cause a certain amount of debilitation and discomfort.

Now think of the scenario when our intrepid pilot has got to the front line in which ever fleet you choose. He has been shot down in hostile lands; his co-pilot has a broken leg and cant walk. The hun are coming over the hill at a great rate of knots so our pilot decides to lift him up and carry him, he manages 100m before he feels the chest tightness and wheezing. He knows that an attack is coming but he cant do anything about it as its now life or death because the hun are right on their heels. He cant get enough air into his lungs and eventually both him and his co-pilot are caught 500m from a PB.

Its not always about the individual, its also be about the "team". You are only as fit as the least fit member of your team. There are several occasions and circumstances when it just isn't practical for any trade, not just pilot.

A few examples -

RAF Regiment - Training in Kenya at 6500', suffers shortness of breath anyway due to the altitude but worse due to asthma. Our Gunner starts to wheeze after tabbing 5kms in 25 degree heat in full kit, body armour and a bergan weighing 25kgs. He is wheezing so much and is getting very anxious now that he starts to over heat due to the effort of trying to breath and is now a heat casualty with no quick access to medical aid. His life is now in the balance!

Medic - Deploys to Afghanistan to do the relatively low physical workload job of IRT. They get a call out to go to a Patrol Base after an IED strike. On arrival there are mass casualties that need CasEvaced ASAP. Our medic runs around treating casualties and lifting stretchers, he is working hard and now is out of breath. His work rate is high and he is getting so little oxygen due to his asthma that he collapses unconscious. His patients now have no medic to treat them and one of them dies.

Chef - Its the yearly CCS currency and our asthmatic chef is in the respirator test facility. He goes for a canister change and screws his drills up and ingests a few lungs full of CS gas. Guess what happens..... He suffers an asthma attack.

Storeman - Is in R & D where the main doors are open, like most days. He is in the back of the warehouse when he hears some noise at the back of some boxes. He scrabbles under some shelving between some boxes where he finds some kittens. He instantly gets the tightness in his chest, he doesn't have his inhaler because he only needs it when he is round animals. As he is wedged between some boxes he panics and feels claustrophobic. This makes everything worse and its now a vicious circle. He collapses between the boxes at the back of the warehouse in the storage area that nobody visits. He lies there for 2 days before someone finds him.

The bluntest trade you can think of - In Afghanistan and a mortar lands nearby and covers our service person in shrapnel. They are screaming at the top of their voice with the pain of losing a leg. They start to panic because they can see their own leg lying next to them. This triggers their asthma. Very quickly someone arrives and sees how much distress our unlucky airman is and very quickly injects them with Morphine (which everybody carries). This now lowers the airmans respiratory rate (side effect of Morphine) so low that they fall unconscious. As he was screaming in pain before bystanders assume he has went quiet because the pain relief is working. It isn't he has now swallowed his tongue and died of asphyxiation!

I could go on but you get the point, you would not believe some of the random and ridiculous places you find yourself in, in the military where these things CAN happen. The medical guidelines are there for very good reason and that is to keep the machine working as it should.

Short version, tough luck! I want to win the lottery but life just isn't fair sometimes.

HG

[Pontius Navigator]

and even in UK on exercise.

All in respirators, sqn cdr down and has to be evacuated. 16 stone, inert, and had to be taken 60 yards out of the hangar. By the time we had dragged him at speed we were short of breath, respirators fogged up and could have collapsed.

Being an exercise people were being told to collapse - how do you tell the difference?